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OKPay Catch-22 This makes zero sense

Discussion in 'America the Beautiful' started by MotorCity68, Jun 27, 2011.

    Jun 27, 2011
  1. MotorCity68

    MotorCity68 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Project Manager
    Location:
    Sterling Heights, MI
    I'm really missing 3Dice lately so I figured I would try OKPay to fund my account.

    Here's my conundrum,

    You can't fund your account with a credit card until they verify your phone number.

    BUT

    You can't get your phone number verified until you have funds in your account to cover the service fee they charge to verify it.


    Brilliant!!
     
  2. Jun 27, 2011
  3. MaryJean

    MaryJean Senior Member MM

    Occupation:
    Rancher
    Location:
    Northern California
    OKpay funding

    I agree it makes no sense. I have been trying to get verified for some time now, and have all of my ID verified, (which took a long time because they were never satisfied with the number of pixels in my graphics) but the phone was a real problem.

    They seem to think that everyone has a mobile phone capable of texting, (I don't) and as you say they want money to verify the phone.

    I spoke to Anna at 3Dice about this and she very nicely added a couple dollars to my account to cover their charge.

    However-----they still have not verified my phone, which entails them calling me over the phone.

    So---I am becoming disenchanted with them too. I thought that maybe they were a solution, but I don't see anyone other than 3Dice trying to use them either.

    Ho-hum!
     
  4. Jun 27, 2011
  5. lnspin

    lnspin Senior Member webmeister

    Occupation:
    Webmaster - Mygamblinglife.com
    Location:
    WorldWide
    How much do they need to be in your account to verify it.

    If its like a $1 or so, why not ask 3dice to make a deposit into your account to help you out?
     
  6. Jun 27, 2011
  7. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    How come they are even charging for this in the first place. This is for THEIR protection and peace of mind, for the customer it is an intrusion.

    The fact that they clearly haven't thought this through, and have ended up with this insane situation suggests that they are amateurs, and maybe NOT best able to provide a smooth service to players, nor even take good care of their money.

    It could even be some kind of scam, where you pay the charge, and they STILL refuse to verify you, and it would be money for nothing.

    I have never heard of a business charging for what is effectively a sales call. They usually charge AFTER they have got you to sign up.

    Maybe they are in it to make the "quick buck" before they are found out and shut down, and they may save their OWN asses first, and to hell with customers with money tied up in the works when they are shut down.

    I can't see how 3Dice refunding the charges will help, since this is NOT the problem, the problem is that the customer must deposit enough to cover the charges, but can only do so AFTER they have been verified. Thus progress is stuck in stalemate.

    In any case, since when was a MOBILE phone a better way of verifying someone's ID than a fixed landline. It all smells of money making bullshit dressed up in the outfit of ID verification, rather than a TRUE attempt to ensure the customer is who they say they are. Whatever "scam" they have in mind probably ONLY works on a mobile phone, and they are really only trying to get your mobile number out of you so that they can use it this way, and they CANNOT do the same thing with a landline system.

    The scam is sure to involve a premium texting service, and customers may find it impossible to switch it off, and OK pay will be able to raid their mobile credit for charges simply by sending a series of text messages. This is a pretty common scam over here too, and in some ways you are at GREATER risk from giving out your mobile number than from giving out your landline number. It's similar to giving out your bank details, which can be used to TAKE money from your account as well as paying it in.
     
    5 people like this.
  8. Jun 27, 2011
  9. dcpam39

    dcpam39 Senior Member PABnononaccred MM

    Occupation:
    retired
    Location:
    East Coast
    i tried to sign up and gave up. First they would not accept my photo id-first time ever , and I experienced the same problem with the phone validation.

    I also did not like the fact that they offered expedited verification for a fee--i did not take them up on it, but i recall a fee if it was within 4 hours, and within 12 hours or something like that--cheesy in my opinion.

    I love 3dice, but not enough to jump through this many hoops to register an account at okpay.
     
  10. Jun 27, 2011
  11. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    That's the "scam". They are trying to "hard sell" the fast validation process, and those who resist seem to suffer some odd problems. In your case it seems they have a problem with your ID, a problem that I am sure will go away were you to agree to the 4/12 fast track system for a fee:rolleyes:

    If 3Dice have any influence with OK pay, they should tell them to stop jerking their players around, as it is ultimately 3Dice that will lose out on their deposits should all these hurdles make them decide to finally give up trying.

    Given that OK pay has been set up specifically to bypass UIGEA, and trick US banks into letting gambling transactions through, they seem to have an unusually pedantic procedure when it comes to other laws that are more convenient for them to obey.
     
    4 people like this.
  12. Jun 29, 2011
  13. MotorCity68

    MotorCity68 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Project Manager
    Location:
    Sterling Heights, MI
    As much as I miss 3Dice I'm going to go with my gut on this one and avoid this OkPay outfit.

    Just doesn't feel right.

    Thanks for the input guys.
     
  14. Jun 29, 2011
  15. funeral979

    funeral979 Senior Member PABaccred

    Occupation:
    retail
    Location:
    Texas
    For what its worth, I had no problem getting verified at OKPay.

    3Dice kindly sent $7 to my OKPay account, which was more than enough to cover any fees than I incurred.

    It took a few days getting everything verified...but patience pays off....and im sure Enzo or Anna would be able to help if any problems arise....they were of great assistance to me!
     
    3 people like this.
  16. Jun 29, 2011
  17. Jasminebed

    Jasminebed Closer to 100 than Birth

    Occupation:
    Not in workforce
    Location:
    Ontario
    I'm not advocating for OK Pay. But if you keep your deposits small, and chose a different withdrawal method, then all you are risking is the chance they shut down before you can deposit those funds at 3Dice. It's money you were prepared to lose gambling in the worse case scenario.

    Since 3Dice will not make you withdraw to the deposit method (AFAIK), you can use their safe system if you want to keep funds to play with, or make a withdrawal by alternate means.

    Unlike my American friends, my existing methods work fine for me, and I haven't signed up or even read their terms and fees.

    If the DOJ steps in and shuts them down, players are looking at losing one deposit only if they don't use the wallet to withdraw.

    Just my 2.03 cents Canadian.
     
    1 person likes this.
  18. Jun 29, 2011
  19. .Mike.

    .Mike. Dormant account

    Occupation:
    e-market
    Location:
    UK
    OKPAY

    Hello people, I'm OKPAY representative and I want to assure you that we are a conscientious company.

    From the June 9th we started to grant free SMS packages to verify cell phone for free. The reason we charge 1$ for a voice verification is an international phone call rates.
    And yes, we require a cell number, that will be your personal number so that we will be able to reach you, not home or work landline number..
    There are also more that a dozen of funding options that will allow you to get this 1$ fee into your account. 3Dice staff is very diligent to assist its customers with basic verification fees.

    And yes, you need to verify your cell number first before you will be able to link your card, this is a security measure. Our verification requirements might look like very high (clear scanned ID images, recent proof of address, cell phone verification) but this is all about the customers security.
    I am proud to say that we have successfully limited fraud situations with OKPAY to its possible minimum. Our customers and a merchants can feel absolutely safe with us.

    If you will have any additional questions you can always contact us at: You must register/login in order to see the link.

    Thank you for your time
    Mike,
    OKPAY representative.
     
    3 people like this.
  20. Jun 29, 2011
  21. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom

    Immediate problem with this, and coming from the UK one that should be obvious.

    Landline - tied to address, and on a rolling contract. Verifiable with the phone company, along with utility bill.

    Cell - pay-as-you-go SIM, easily obtained, easily disposed of, not tied to a specific person or address, even the phone company doesn't bother verifying the customer, as with this type of deal they get their money up front. Pay-as-you-go SIMs and phones are the communication method of choice for criminal gangs and terrorists, yet you consider this MORE secure than customers wanting to use their home landline.

    International calls too expensive? bollocks, I get called all the time from India, because it is CHEAPER for companies to call from there and operate a call centre than to call me from the town centre.

    If you use the best package, a verification call to a US customer will cost you less than 10c, so 90c of your charge is NOT for the phonecall itself, but just contributes to general overheads.

    This is the ONLY eWallet or casino that actually seeks to charge a fee for verifying a customer, which in itself makes you stand out, and starts making people wonder.

    The requirement to verify customers is a legal obligation placed on YOU, not the customer, therefore the costs involved in complying with this law should be catered for in your administrative overheads.

    Taking money from US players whilst KNOWING it will be used to fund deposits to casinos is breaking the UIGEA, and the US government will consider you a criminal, and do their best to shut you down and seize any monies they can get hold of. This is where your customers stand to lose out, and a crop of shutdowns and seizures since last Novermber has seen some players lose considerable sums of money, probably never to see it again.
    You will have to convince US players that you are somehow able to remain "untouchable". QT considered itself so clever as to be "untouchable", yet they were finally nailed last month, and it seems that some players can only get their money out if they can open a Euro offshore account, and others have been told by QT that the US government have their money, and they will not make good their loss.

    Now, if you can find a way for US players to open Euro accounts to save their QT balances, they may be more inclined to believe that OKPay has what it takes to ensure their money isn't seized. Besides, should the worst happen, your customers having Euro accounts would make it easier for you to give them back their balances should you need to shut down. This is going to be a matter of "when" rather than "if".

    The best advice for US players now is to hold off pending a change of attitude within the US government, rather than risk a repeat of EWX and QT balance losses.
     
    2 people like this.
  22. Jun 29, 2011
  23. uxix

    uxix Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Private Security
    Location:
    Jerusalem
    I sent them the docs i always send to casinos to get verified and they refused the Passport scan even though its clear and i sent and ID scan as well..

    Also made a small test deposit from moneybookers and it was on hold for like a month then suddenly..it went through..still not verified though.
     
  24. Jun 29, 2011
  25. .Mike.

    .Mike. Dormant account

    Occupation:
    e-market
    Location:
    UK
    vinylweatherman

    1. There is no way for a customer to receive sms on a landline number (most of our security are based on a SMS service).
    You can add and verify a landline number as an additional number after cell phone.

    2. International calls are expensive, calls to European counties are 0.69 Euro per minute in general (to Asia same and higher), and it is usually takes more than a minute for a customer to login to his/her account and get the phone verification code.

    3. We are not obligating customers to pay verification fees, as I have mentioned before there is a free SMS service package bonus and the phone verification is only required for CC operations.
     
  26. Jun 29, 2011
  27. .Mike.

    .Mike. Dormant account

    Occupation:
    e-market
    Location:
    UK
    You can give me your account email address and again we will send you an email with the details of what is missing.

    Regarding a moneybookers deposit:
    There is a red note on the MB funding page that says:
    Please note that payments to a merchant are processed without a Hold.
     
    1 person likes this.
  28. Jun 29, 2011
  29. Mousey

    Mousey Ueber Meister Mouse CAG

    Occupation:
    Pencil Pusher
    Location:
    Up$hitCreek
    Thank you for posting. We appreciate your time.

    My only cellphone is provided and monthly service paid for by the busines I work for. I have disabled texting on all employee phones (including mine). When I am at home my cellphone is off. ... oh, never mind... Logic and common sense flew out the online gambling window years ago.

    I am too old, too tired, too sick of the entire USA mess.... My hoop jumping days are loooong over.

    To those who continue the hoop jumping.... let's be careful out there, players!
     
    2 people like this.
  30. Jun 29, 2011
  31. 3Dice

    3Dice I-Gaming Industry Representative

    Occupation:
    -
    Location:
    -
    Hiya guys,

    A diligently executed verification procedure is always a bit of a pain. But on today's internet unfortunately there are good reasons to take that hurdle since it is no longer just merchants and processors that have to deal with fraud.

    OkPay's security model is by far the most extended that I've seen to date, with user customizable settings that range from basic password protection all the way up to pin codes being sent via text messages to authorize transactions.

    While a cell phone may not be reliable to verify whether or not a customer has given you his real name, it is the perfect means of verifying that the customer making the transaction is also the customer that signed up.

    Even if a customers computer gets compromised, and a hacker is looking over his shoulder scanning his keystrokes as he logs in to his OkPay account .. the hacker still will not be able to make a transaction without actually first stealing the customers cell-phone ..

    That said, these verification procedures are never fun, as a customer, when you go through them, keep in mind that these are rules not set forth to harass you, but instead rules set forth to make sure that someone malicious is not trying to steal your identity to create that account..

    Cheers,

    Enzo
     
    3 people like this.
  32. Jun 29, 2011
  33. Mousey

    Mousey Ueber Meister Mouse CAG

    Occupation:
    Pencil Pusher
    Location:
    Up$hitCreek
    Thank you Enzo. Your trust in this company means a lot. This will reassure players a bit, I'm sure.

    OH... and good morning!
     
  34. Jun 29, 2011
  35. X-Raided

    X-Raided I'm Beetlejuice Baby! PABinit

    Occupation:
    Professional Sleeper
    Location:
    Florida

    Ditto on everything you stated. Same experiance and now I'm playing at 3Dice
    without any issues.
     
  36. Jun 29, 2011
  37. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    1. WRONG. You CAN send SMS to a landline, and I have received them. They are done through an interface run by BT where the SMS is spoken as a recorded message.

    My bank phone my landline for adding a new recipient, and it seems to be the same level of security that you are offering.

    When I am logged into my bank and add a recipient, I get an immediate automated phone call to my landline. At the same time, the website displays a 4 digit PIN, and I have to enter this on the phone using the keypad in order to complete the transaction. This means that not only do I need access to my PC, but also to my landline. Mobile phones are easy to steal, but a landline can only be taken by breaking into my house, and even then it is only the handset that can be taken, not access to my number.

    A text costs 12p to send at standard rates, which is 10x more expensive than a short phonecall.

    Lastly, what's the MASSIVE problem with Moneybookers, which is regulated by the FSA as a "small e-money issuer", yet you have a hitherto unheard of 40 DAY hold on funds transferred using this method.

    If you don't charge for verification, why were potential customers lead to believe that you had this "stupid catch-22 situation".
    I can only think it is because your agents are really pushing the express verification procedure, and failing to inform customers who point out the problem that they can also have "standard" verification for free.

    Stringent security has to be balanced with usabilty. It is no good having near 100% security if this makes the service unusable in practice.

    There also seems to be an unhealthily close relationship between OK pay and 3Dice, as this payment method was first heard of in connection with 3Dice, and so far has not been mentioned in connection with any other operator.
    It makes me think that OK-pay is not a true processor, but an "in-house" department of 3Dice. If this is so, then players will be tied to one choice of casino with this payment method, and will not be able to use it elsewhere.

    Given that it is only US players that have to resort to such methods, I doubt that Moneybookers will be a funding option in any case, and neither will be Neteller.

    I also find it VERY odd that funding OK pay with Moneybookers is even possible, since eWallets do NOT, as a rule, allow transfers to and from their competitors. I even wonder whether the 40 day hold for Moneybooksers is because they don't know that the transfer has gone to a competing eWallet, and might recall the amount were they to find out within 40 days.

    For those US players thinking of pursuing this option regardless, what exactly is this "free SMS service package bonus", and is it the case that unless customers have a cell phone that can receive texts, they CANNOT use OK-pay.
     
  38. Jun 29, 2011
  39. MaryJean

    MaryJean Senior Member MM

    Occupation:
    Rancher
    Location:
    Northern California
    Phone Verified at OKpay

    Just a quick note to say that thanks to Anna at 3Dice, my cell phone that has no Texting capabilities and over which I never received a call from OKpay to verify the number, has now been verified due to intervention by Anna.

    Thank you Anna.

    By the way---OKpay charged 3dice $1.00 for verification.
     
    1 person likes this.

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