Nothing good to say about online gaming

[4 of a kind]

I'm starting this thread actually in response to another thread titled "Does anyone have any good news" since I thought this didn't fit there.

Online casinos have chosen to let the industry evolve into what it has become today. Maybe it was a direct result of the uncertainty for their future after the UIGEA was passed in the USA. But everyone would have to agree that over the past few years online gaming has hit new lows. They have done nothing to improve their image and on the contrary have done a great deal in redefining the term “ROGUE”, constantly exhibiting never ending contemporary tactics never seen before, while keeping the old ones in place.

Like I said many times before I have never been screwed by any online casino in the past or too this day, and didn’t even know what goes on till joining this forum in March of 09. Up until 2007 I was always satisfied with my online gaming results. I could not care less what software platform the games were being run from nor even cared to find out. But after 2007, 2008, 2009, and this present year I realized things have changed drastically.

This led to me joining several other gaming forums and my desire to find out what was really going on. To me it became obvious that video poker which is the predominate game I play had to be running off a RTP platform like slots. After millions of hands over the last four year period it was obvious the probabilities were way out of range. This could only be a result of lowered RTP’s. So it’s obvious in the past these games were always run off an RTP platform but they were set high enough to equal expected returns from Random Draw. Any professional player would have never noticed the difference or have any reason to question the software.

This is the direct reason that led me to my quest for fairness. I am 57 years old with plenty of time and access to computers wherever I may be. I pursued alleged online regulators in Gibraltor, Alderney, Curaco, Antiqua, (and a few more I can’t think of now) with written requests about game regulations, by snail mail and e-mails. I left every possible way for them to contact me, home address, phone number, e-mail address, and didn’t receive one single response in any way, shape, or form or even an acknowledgement it was received. No casino rep has ever responded to my questions on the forum either when it came to game regulation.

The only alleged confirmation we ever got on some issues is by Bryan talking to inside connections that refuse to be identified. I trust Bryan for his word but he can’t be positive who he’s talking to is 100% being upfront since this is a billion dollar industry that I’m certain they wouldn’t want to be jeopardized.

In addition we have affiliates and advocates that no doubt exhibit prejudice opinions when issues involve casinos they promote. This behavior is not always obvious at first, but if you were to read many of the active gaming forums (which many people don’t) their motives do in fact become obvious.

I miss online gaming in a big way. It was a great way to pass time which I have plenty of with excitement. Gambling is in my DNA and I'm now being forced backed to B&M's like many other past online gamers. I stay current reading everything about it (including hopes of USA regulation) and find it repulsive to sit back and not express my opinions from personal experiences regardless if what I say offends anyone. I'm always ready to stand corrected, and have been several times in the past.

Unfortunately regardless of what some will try to convince otherwise, there is no regulation being implied and or intended. Everything needs to be exposed be it good or bad about online gaming in its present form.

So why does it seem there’s not many good things being said about online gaming especially lately? Maybe because if I wanted I could make a list that would consist of at least a thousand reasons why online casinos can’t be trusted and that list would be certain to grow in the future; and could only list maybe four reasons why you might trust a list of casinos you could count with only one hand and a good chance of that small count even reducing in the future.

All anyone wants is to know their losing their money fair and square. Online casinos had that chance to prove this and still do but endlessly refuse to be transparent. Refusing to be transparent is like a suspect pleading the 5th amendment in a murder trial and in my eyes with online gaming is all the evidence I need to convict.

 

[takethemoney]

If you're living in the USA, then like me, you probably feel something has smelled like a rat for the past couple of years. I was losing almost every deposit for about a year. 2009 was very good to me, as I won over $45k in 4 random jackpots. It has been what's happened this year that has truely opened my eyes for me. 102 deposits and normally I take a bonus because I can't deposit $100 anymore and have any play time, so a bonus makes it possible to have that several hours of play time. I have only twice made playthrough this year and when I did, it was not with enough money left to withdraw once the bonus was removed. That just isn't right. I have been told that RTG is independent of each other and there is no global RTP, but I suspect otherwise, as if once shut down, it is RTG wide. Can't prove it, but it effects me in a way where my skepticism won't allow me to play very often or deposit much when I do.
I'm not one to chase losses, so my gambling is very light lately.

 

[nisosbar]

No casino rep has ever responded to my questions on the forum either when it came to game regulation.

I recall your previous thread about this issue, and for me, the lack of response from any casino reps was confirmation that your argument was correct.

If an online casino did in fact have a video poker game that was not subject to external RTP controls, then we all know the casino rep would be - at a minimum - taking opportunities here on CM to state that fact here unequivocally, even if they were reluctant to state that 'that other platform is NOT entirely random' (out of professional courtesy).

Yes, this does not change the fact that some players DO get royal flushes from time to time, nor does it change the fact that the video poker games are fun, lol, but it DOES mean that referring to the card games online as "slotjack" or "slotpoker" is closer to the truth, in my opinion, than 'just like in a B&M casino at a table with a live dealer'. (Mileage may vary from my own, of course.)

 

[takethemoney]

Not to have my own pity party here, but today is my birthday and I got a total of two birthday greetings from casinos. One offering me a special 100% match bonus and a $20 free chip at another, with a 5 x max cashout and 60x playthough. What happened to getting at least 500 - 600 every year, all kinds of ecards and chocolate and goodies in the mail and no strings attached? Business has to be way down, or nobody cares about the customers anymore.
I have actually deposited more this year than last year, up until a couple months ago, when I decided it was not worth it.

 

[kauphy]

happy b-day not to derail just wanted to make you feel a little better

 

[Mavin1]

I'm starting this thread actually in response to another thread titled "Does anyone have any good news" since I thought this didn't fit there.

Online casinos have chosen to let the industry evolve into what it has become today. Maybe it was a direct result of the uncertainty for their future after the UIGEA was passed in the USA. But everyone would have to agree that over the past few years online gaming has hit new lows. They have done nothing to improve their image and on the contrary have done a great deal in redefining the term “ROGUE”, constantly exhibiting never ending contemporary tactics never seen before, while keeping the old ones in place.

Like I said many times before I have never been screwed by any online casino in the past or too this day, and didn’t even know what goes on till joining this forum in March of 09. Up until 2007 I was always satisfied with my online gaming results. I could not care less what software platform the games were being run from nor even cared to find out. But after 2007, 2008, 2009, and this present year I realized things have changed drastically.

This led to me joining several other gaming forums and my desire to find out what was really going on. To me it became obvious that video poker which is the predominate game I play had to be running off a RTP platform like slots. After millions of hands over the last four year period it was obvious the probabilities were way out of range. This could only be a result of lowered RTP’s. So it’s obvious in the past these games were always run off an RTP platform but they were set high enough to equal expected returns from Random Draw. Any professional player would have never noticed the difference or have any reason to question the software.

This is the direct reason that led me to my quest for fairness. I am 57 years old with plenty of time and access to computers wherever I may be. I pursued alleged online regulators in Gibraltor, Alderney, Curaco, Antiqua, (and a few more I can’t think of now) with written requests about game regulations, by snail mail and e-mails. I left every possible way for them to contact me, home address, phone number, e-mail address, and didn’t receive one single response in any way, shape, or form or even an acknowledgement it was received. No casino rep has ever responded to my questions on the forum either when it came to game regulation.

The only alleged confirmation we ever got on some issues is by Bryan talking to inside connections that refuse to be identified. I trust Bryan for his word but he can’t be positive who he’s talking to is 100% being upfront since this is a billion dollar industry that I’m certain they wouldn’t want to be jeopardized.

In addition we have affiliates and advocates that no doubt exhibit prejudice opinions when issues involve casinos they promote. This behavior is not always obvious at first, but if you were to read many of the active gaming forums (which many people don’t) their motives do in fact become obvious.

I miss online gaming in a big way. It was a great way to pass time which I have plenty of with excitement. Gambling is in my DNA and I'm now being forced backed to B&M's like many other past online gamers. I stay current reading everything about it (including hopes of USA regulation) and find it repulsive to sit back and not express my opinions from personal experiences regardless if what I say offends anyone. I'm always ready to stand corrected, and have been several times in the past.

Unfortunately regardless of what some will try to convince otherwise, there is no regulation being implied and or intended. Everything needs to be exposed be it good or bad about online gaming in its present form.

So why does it seem there’s not many good things being said about online gaming especially lately? Maybe because if I wanted I could make a list that would consist of at least a thousand reasons why online casinos can’t be trusted and that list would be certain to grow in the future; and could only list maybe four reasons why you might trust a list of casinos you could count with only one hand and a good chance of that small count even reducing in the future.

All anyone wants is to know their losing their money fair and square. Online casinos had that chance to prove this and still do but endlessly refuse to be transparent. Refusing to be transparent is like a suspect pleading the 5th amendment in a murder trial and in my eyes with online gaming is all the evidence I need to convict.

Absolutely agree!!!!!

 

[takethemoney]

Everyone seems to be forgetting that gambling should only be used for entertainment purposes......very expensive entertainment!

Years ago when they let more people win, they did so with the intention of getting a global market hooked on gambling online. Now that the mission has been accomplished, things are tighter because they know we fools have to have our fix and will continue to deposit, no matter what's happened to the odds.

 

[Pulver]

And IF you are lucky enough to win a substantial amount, you have absolutley no guarantee of getting paid, CM acredited casino or not. The whole industry has become so vile it's sickening. Hearing casino reps comming on here and promote that it is "within our TC" to use 5 business day to pay a customer BY EWALLETS! Then when 5 days have passed, they are going to ask you for a clearer scan of your ID, or some nonsense. Not to mention my ongoing case with Lock casino..

 

[4 of a kind]

you have absolutley no guarantee of getting paid, CM acredited casino or not.

That's why my list is only temporally 4 deep which would also include a T&C that states deposit and play at your own risk.

Now today two new complaints showed up I never saw before for me to add onto the ever growing negative list.

1) Casino support convinces customer to make a larger deposit for a better bonus. After customer makes deposit then CS reports he's been banned from bonuses.

2) Casino attempts to confiscate 1K in winnings cause customer got tired of the bullshit delays after a few days and mouthed off. Their grounds were quote: "Abusive language"

They can hide in cyberspace with these tactics, but I could assure you if this was live, someone would be leaving the scene on a stretcher and someone else would be going to jail with assault charges against him or her.

 

[Mavin1]

Everyone seems to be forgetting that gambling should only be used for entertainment purposes......very expensive entertainment!
Years ago when they let more people win, they did so with the intention of getting a global market hooked on gambling online. Now that the mission has been accomplished, things are tighter because they know we fools have to have our fix and will continue to deposit, no matter what's happened to the odds.

What I dissagree about with the above statment, is that gambling is only entertainment, albeit an expensive form. Gambling is set apart from other forms of entertainment in the fact that it has promise of monetary reward in return for your continued support.

Going to a ball game, movie or other forms of entertainment, the only thing you walk away with is the play in your head.

People, as it has been said before, do not gamble strictly for entertainment, they play because of the monetary promises. Hooking players in with a true balance of give and take and then evolving into mearly take, is a sick and sadistic joke on the players. Much like dangling a fat juicy hamburger in front of a hungry person and then giving them a dry cracker.

There is no logical reason why gambling should be a con mans shell game, it wasn't before. Casinos and their groups that have shifted to this type of strategy will only be hurting themselves in the long run. Players will slowly but inevitably move away from casino groups that do not value their player base.

But that's okay, if we cannot weed out the shell game casinos by ranting, then maybe the loss of our revenue will force them out of business and only the true casinos that value their support base will remain standing.

To be rid of all the entertainment only casinos, a true casino would have a much larger player base, better RTP and would never have to worry about their gain because they would have more business than they knew what to do with.

Why else are the games so tight, payout times so long and so on, because there are to many in competition now that they over diluted and exceeded the player base and gotten a bit to greedy by increasing the houses favor. Everywhere you look you see way to many of RTG and Rivals. The CEO's don't care how much they glut the industry, they are of the thinking more is better, but when it gets down the bottom, the players, we would say less is better.

It would make an interesting study to see if things starting dropping off in online gamings popularity when casino clones started increasing.


JMO

 

[Rusty]

I think you hit the nail on the head in your opening post.
The technical standards for software are way too low meaning that even whitelisted jurisdictions will happily supply a license to Casino using software that has games such as VP that do not need to state they are just lottery games dressed as something else.

This is my problem with all software and all the games - the algorithms that dictate the weighting of the draws.
Don't get me wrong, it could be argued that these are still fair games but we have to ask ourselves why the software operates in this manner.

Worse still software companies have been very economical with the truth when it comes to telling how their software operates - trade secrets they say.
I have to laugh at that because if it was just random and all probabilities of all events never changed there would be no secret to keep.

If you ever question why you are suddenly getting 65% RTP on your last dozen deposits the casino will say, "Our RNG bla bla bla" which is pretty much meaningless because it is not the RNG that is the problem.
All the games maintain a random element - it is the gaming algorithms that generate the results from the RNG data source that are the problem.

This is perfectly legal and is probably seen as a way of enhancing the game experience by creating big wins, unnatural winning streaks or multiple feature retriggers (which we naturally have to pay for with unnatural losing streaks)
and as I say it could even be construed as fair.
The problem is that such a system is open to misuse (I would say misuse is unlikely by big brands but no doubt happens at smaller casinos)

All I want are unweighted slots with 95%+ RTP and you can have your VP that checks the results after generating the cards from an unweighted virtual deck rather than generates the result then deals the cards.

Any Casino/Software company that wants to challenge the validity of what I am saying is welcome to do so in this thread - it is a debate I have long been seeking.
It won't happen though because they know I am right.

 

[takethemoney]

Mavin, I think you missed the sarcasm in my post. I should have been more clear of that. That is the position of most casino managers when one talks about having bad runs on the games.

What I dissagree about with the above statment, is that gambling is only entertainment, albeit an expensive form. Gambling is set apart from other forms of entertainment in the fact that it has promise of monetary reward in return for your continued support.

Going to a ball game, movie or other forms of entertainment, the only thing you walk away with is the play in your head.

People, as it has been said before, do not gamble strictly for entertainment, they play because of the monetary promises. Hooking players in with a true balance of give and take and then evolving into mearly take, is a sick and sadistic joke on the players. Much like dangling a fat juicy hamburger in front of a hungry person and then giving them a dry cracker.

There is no logical reason why gambling should be a con mans shell game, it wasn't before. Casinos and their groups that have shifted to this type of strategy will only be hurting themselves in the long run. Players will slowly but inevitably move away from casino groups that do not value their player base.

But that's okay, if we cannot weed out the shell game casinos by ranting, then maybe the loss of our revenue will force them out of business and only the true casinos that value their support base will remain standing.

To be rid of all the entertainment only casinos, a true casino would have a much larger player base, better RTP and would never have to worry about their gain because they would have more business than they knew what to do with.

Why else are the games so tight, payout times so long and so on, because there are to many in competition now that they over diluted and exceeded the player base and gotten a bit to greedy by increasing the houses favor. Everywhere you look you see way to many of RTG and Rivals. The CEO's don't care how much they glut the industry, they are of the thinking more is better, but when it gets down the bottom, the players, we would say less is better.

It would make an interesting study to see if things starting dropping off in online gamings popularity when casino clones started increasing.


JMO

 

[4 of a kind]

Many posts here have touched on many finer points related to the negative press constantly being posted all over the place about online casinos. And believe me what’s being said here is only part of what’s being said everywhere else. The players posting didn't just walk onto the online gaming scene yesterday, but are long time veteran players like myself. This is the type of information along with the good; I feel is vital for newcomers to be familiar with before deciding to play online and thinking it is no different and as safe as B&M’s. Unfortunately most don’t find this and other sites till they were cleverly routed to an affiliate with flashing free bonuses and top 20 lists of the best online casinos along with alleged bullshit techniques to beat them, only to eventually end up rogued in one form or another, and were smart enough to look for help. You wonder how many people just took their lumps and figured they were scammed and just pulled out never to be heard from again.

The casinos have the power to change this atmosphere but refuse too, just like they will refuse to comment on anything being said here and try to right the ship.

Except for a handful I would have to guess by now online casinos have lost most of the serious gamblers I’m sure at one time existed. It’s also obvious the whole business is now revolving around bonuses and small time gamblers. All they have to offer for the player today is bonuses that give the illusion of a big bankroll. And should one of these players get lucky enough to overcome everything that comes with them they’ll find there only half way there to getting money in hand.

 

[love2winalot]

but I could assure you if this was live

Hiya: This happens, Live all the time. Just the other day at my Bank, the guy in front of me was upset about something, "check on hold", i think. He started calling the Teller a bunch of names and *#!@(%# at her. The Bank manager told him to get out of the bank. But Why? It was HIS Money, and he was not being given acces to it?

Because, is it not the responsibility of the, "Employer", to look out for the, "Employee"? If you were the Casino Employee, "or an Employee in any Job", and this happened to you, and your Employer did nothing, how would you feel? It seems to me that CS Reps, "in this case, on line casino reps", are they just suppose to sit there and, "Take it like a MAN". What if that Casino rep was your Daughter?

Or, As a fellow player, do we just think that the, "Customer is always right", and it is their job to put up with us, no matter what? I know that I never have, and never will. I will not heisitate to hang up on you, or walk away from you, or close the door on you. And if my Boss was standing there when i did it, he had better be backing me up, or else he can go place an add in the paper for my replacement. ....................

4 of a Kind: Does your post mean that even table games like Sic Bo & Roulette, are actually set to pay out, "Less" than what the odds of the game and type of bet say they are suppose to? Are you saying, that if a person is betting on the number, "7", every time, and that number is suppose to hit once every 37 spins, that when, "the casino" see's this, that they can, and do, cause that number to now hit less often, or not at all?

Thanks.

 

[4 of a kind]

4 of a Kind: Does your post mean that even table games like Sic Bo & Roulette, are actually set to pay out, "Less" than what the odds of the game and type of bet say they are suppose to? Are you saying, that if a person is betting on the number, "7", every time, and that number is suppose to hit once every 37 spins, that when, "the casino" see's this, that they can, and do, cause that number to now hit less often, or not at all?
Thanks.

First of all as far as any player behaving like an immature asshole regardless how wrong a CS or whoever was, personally I would step in (if I were there) and try to point out to the asshole that he's behaving like an asshole. Considering this was done in cyberspace, as soon as the player started bad mouthing all they had to do was disconnect and report the incident to their manager. They could ban him from all other software related casinos if they want but they have no legal rights to steal his winnings. Then on the other hand since they allegedly now agreed to pay him, he should count his blessings because the word legal should never be mentioned in the same sentence with online casino.

Whenever I spoke to casino support online I always would wait for the screen to identify who I was speaking with and always start my conversation with a good morning, afternoon, or evening followed by their name, and close with thank you for your time, regardless how happy I was or wasn't after the discussion. I was always well liked and actually in the days when most communications were done on the phone, I became personal with many reps. and benefited more then you could imagine with cash comps.

As far as the banking incident you spoke of, his funds were not available yet, therefore the bank wasn't holding back anything. Were his funds available and they denied paying him cause he mouthed off, he could simply return with the police and get his money and the bank could ask to charge the customer with harassment, along with ejecting him from any further use of the bank. But all his money must be released first. The bank had no chance what so ever of keeping a single penny of his money.

As far as your questions about the games you mention being played off of RTP or random software I would assume they too are playing off the RTP version based on what I read about players posted opinions. I could only speak with certainty about my experiences with Video Poker which I mastered and played online endlessly for a decade.

 

[rouletteguy]

It's not the casino altering anything it's built into the software. There are All kinds of conspiracy theories such as "trigger event software" RTP based table games etc. But none can be proven because it is possible for that losing variance to appear and there is no way to prove it is not a random event.
I have personally found some online roulette rng's are reasonable and some will just eat your money time after time so I avoid those one's.

I've made the switch to live online games but even they require a high degree of trust because there are those play's you make with a server glitch and delay as if another video is being loaded that make you wonder.

If your losing.........quit that's all I can say the same as you would at a B/M
because bitching about it isn't going to change anything. The day is coming when it will all be Government regulated and we'll learn if these games were stealing or not but til then all you can do is trust or quit.

I would like to add as far as slots go a 10 grand plus win at a B/M can be considered a once in a lifetime event so if you've had several of these I can see no reason why you can call cheat just because you haven't managed another one.

The slot machines are rtp based we know this as fact right? and it's audited monthly not annually I am assuming because they post monthly pay out rates. so it stands to reason that 5 years ago there were fewer player's at any given casino but the machine was still required to dish out x number of dollars right? well 1 in 1000 is better than 1 in 10000 of hitting successive wins. I really think it's just a matter of more people playing which lowers your odds of getting a hit compared to what they were before. Same thing though....... can't prove it either way.

 

[bryand]

It would be interesting to get CM's take on the current trends in online gambling. Could this be just a cyclical downturn or problems mainly in the US market? Or is the US market bringing down the industry? Or maybe a reflection of the economic recession?

 

[silcnlayc]

rouletteguy : It's not the casino altering anything it's built into the software. There are All kinds of conspiracy theories such as "trigger event software" RTP based table games etc. But none can be proven because it is possible for that losing variance to appear and there is no way to prove it is not a random event.
I have personally found some online roulette rng's are reasonable and some will just eat your money time after time so I avoid those one's.

I've made the switch to live online games but even they require a high degree of trust because there are those play's you make with a server glitch and delay as if another video is being loaded that make you wonder.

If your losing.........quit that's all I can say the same as you would at a B/M
because bitching about it isn't going to change anything. The day is coming when it will all be Government regulated and we'll learn if these games were stealing or not but til then all you can do is trust or quit.

I would like to add as far as slots go a 10 grand plus win at a B/M can be considered a once in a lifetime event so if you've had several of these I can see no reason why you can call cheat just because you haven't managed another one.

The slot machines are rtp based we know this as fact right? and it's audited monthly not annually I am assuming because they post monthly pay out rates. so it stands to reason that 5 years ago there were fewer player's at any given casino but the machine was still required to dish out x number of dollars right? well 1 in 1000 is better than 1 in 10000 of hitting successive wins. I really think it's just a matter of more people playing which lowers your odds of getting a hit compared to what they were before. Same thing though....... can't prove it either way.

Ahhh yes...was wondering when this was going to show up .... "Nothing has changed" "stop playing" "No conspiracy" ....and the best of all is all the "facts" right there in front of you without one iota of "proof" all is above board...

Yep....all is good in the online gambling world...keep plugging in your nickles...for nothing has changed...because they say so..

.

 

[all4greed]

2) Casino attempts to confiscate 1K in winnings cause customer got tired of the bullshit delays after a few days and mouthed off. Their grounds were quote: "Abusive language"

That one still bothers me. And as I've said time and time again, just when I think I've read every reason a casino doesn't want to pay a player, a new BS excuse comes along.

 

[rouletteguy]

Ahhh yes...was wondering when this was going to show up .... "Nothing has changed" "stop playing" "No conspiracy" ....and the best of all is all the "facts" right there in front of you without one iota of "proof" all is above board...

Yep....all is good in the online gambling world...keep plugging in your nickles...for nothing has changed...because they say so..

.

It's gotten a whole lot bigger if you complained about plugging a b/m slot full and never hitting it would be a non issue........ considered luck of the draw so why do people think an online casino should operate as a charity?

Because they're bigger it only stands to reason that your chance of hitting has gotten alot smaller. Say 5-10 years ago a casino had 10 000 patrons as an average and now they have 150 000 your chance of a win is alot smaller now.

People travel to Vegas everyday and plug in thousands with no big win so why should it be expected to win 1000 on every 4th or 5th 100 dollar deposit online?

Reflect on the good ole day's because they're over the slots are still paying out just not to you and when you were winning back then someone else was losing.

It would only stand to reason if a casino is cheating they are not meeting there 95% payout and instead skimming and pocketing otherwise what's the point? It would be alot easier to prove a publicly traded company is profiting more than they should as per RTP

So we have alot of bright members here likely one is well versed in this sort of accounting thing go find which ones are profiting over and above. It's not cash every transaction has a paper trail so I think it'd be pretty hard to cheat their local governments.

Just trying to find a way to find some proof because without it we can't prove anything, It can be considered here say.

 

[love2winalot]

Hiya: Back to 4 of a Kind again. I have heard this, "therory", or, for lack of a better term, Rigged games. My first check from an On Line casino was from Cptn Cooks, thru jsl systems, ie, Neteller. This was Nov of 2004. So, for the last 6 years i have heard the same things that you have.

BJ, War, A slot machine, and even Video Poker, are different than Roulette or Sic Bo. The other games are either flat out, Win or Lose, or have a basic method of play. You are not going to hit your total of 19 vs the dealer face card, and you are not going to trow away K-J-J, and keep the 7 & 2, thinking this will fool the RNG, and you will get a full house now.

So, it come down to this. Roulette/Sic Bo, If a person is doing it, or if it is built into the software, "When does the manipulation happen"?
A. After you have placed your bets, and before you hit the spin/roll button? or
B. Prior to you placing your bets, based on your current betting pattern?

If the answer is, "A", every table player in the world is screwed...........
if the answer is, "B", same bet every time players are screwed..........

But, if the answer is, "B", whats to stop someone from setting up the cheating casino, establishing a betting pattern, pressing bets from $1 up to $10, and then, after you start to lose, just switch bets completely, with $25 bets, and make a killing?

or, is there another way the game can/is being manipulated that i did not mention? If so, please explain. I am only looking for your expierience in these type of things, as you have reasearched them a lot more than most of us ever will. Thanks.

 

[Nate]

IMO - These games are RTP based, nothing more, nothing less. The results are predetermined and you receive the 'Eye Candy' as the result. Video Poker / Blackjack and Roulette are by no means random where any result is possible irrelevant of previous outcomes - All future outcomes are based on previous outcomes within a cycle!


Video Poker is the same at any B&M casino - RTP Based ... aka SlotPoker... What makes you think that online will be any different?

I don't play table games online for that reason... Any B&M that has BJ, Roulette or Poker as a Video Game runs it off a Theoretical RTP / Manufacturer specified RTP setting... Online is exactly the same

Nate

 

[funeral979]

IMO - These games are RTP based, nothing more, nothing less. The results are predetermined and you receive the 'Eye Candy' as the result. Video Poker / Blackjack and Roulette are by no means random where any result is possible irrelevant of previous outcomes - All future outcomes are based on previous outcomes within a cycle!


Video Poker is the same at any B&M casino - RTP Based ... aka SlotPoker... What makes you think that online will be any different?

I don't play table games online for that reason... Any B&M that has BJ, Roulette or Poker as a Video Game runs it off a Theoretical RTP / Manufacturer specified RTP setting... Online is exactly the same

Nate

So do you disagree with the following statement made by Enzo in defense of his blackjack game?.....

You must've missed the third party verification that is published on our website. Please carefully read through the testing procedure and you will see that it doesn't just check the core RNG, but also the card deck shuffling code and how it is used in all of 3Dice's card games. Before the first card is dealt, the software generates a random deck that is used for the remainder of the game. There is no selecting going on during the game. Anny stuttering and hickups are most likely related with certain governments forcing casino servers to islands with unreliable internet connections.

 

[Nate]

So do you disagree with the following statement made by Enzo in defense of his blackjack game?.....

You must've missed the third party verification that is published on our website. Please carefully read through the testing procedure and you will see that it doesn't just check the core RNG, but also the card deck shuffling code and how it is used in all of 3Dice's card games. Before the first card is dealt, the software generates a random deck that is used for the remainder of the game. There is no selecting going on during the game. Anny stuttering and hickups are most likely related with certain governments forcing casino servers to islands with unreliable internet connections.

Like I stated at the beginning of my post 'IMO'

To sum it up - I believe all are SLOT games. The RNG generates random combinations (In no particular order or sequence for payouts) but maintains that the TOP award on a slot is NOT paid more than once for that CYCLE. The games results are Random, but the overall payout will conform (give or take a few percent) to the Theoretical RTP of that game over a period of time

 

[4 of a kind]

Many here are bringing into this conversation the term RIGGED. This is not my intention or believe at all. In addition I'm only concentrating on Video Poker, the one game I mastered and consider myself a professional and could play 100% with perfect strategy.

If the cards are actually based on a random shuffle the hands will come up with their expected probability in the long run. If the cards are being drawn based on RTP settings like slots then the decisions bring into play variable programming with secondary decisions to eventually equate to the RTP setting eliminating expected probabilities if the RTP setting is to low.

If I play perfect strategy Video Poker based on random draw over millions of hands I would expect between a 96% to 99% return. If during this same period I find I'm only getting 91% it becomes obvious I'm playing an RTP setting and realistically any strategy being used could be tossed out the window.

If I know I'm playing RTP% Video Poker or in other words a slot machine I don't spend endless 4 hour sessions on one game expecting the probabilities to eventually hold true. Slot player strategy is a different animal. Many slot players after 15 minutes will assume the machine is cold or that someone in the recent past hit the machine big, and just move on to another. Random draw Video Poker players on the other hand would stay with the game and attempt to grind out the probabilities.

In addition if the RTP video poker was set high enough or similar to random draw payouts, a professional player would have a hard time determining which format is actually being used.

I consider myself a professional video poker player and have with no doubt concluded the games are run off of RTP programming and the settings have been severely reduced after years of trying to grind it out. Not one or two shitty sessions, but years of compiling results.

As a result of my findings I of course no longer play online. I just want the casinos to come forward with this information so future and present players can apply the right strategy (slot strategy) giving them a bigger bang for their buck and better control of money management.

All I want to know from online casinos is Random Draw or RTP settings, and what is the lowest setting they could use (according to their alleged regulations.) This information is 100% obtainable at any land based casino. Why do they refuse to tell us?

No one is saying their rigged or cheating. They want to offer us a game of chance. All we want to know is what are the odds?

 

[Nate]

I consider myself a professional video poker player and have with no doubt concluded the games are run off of RTP programming ......

Spot On... Online VP was actually born with the same VP in mind at B&M's. The VP at B&M's is RTP based... Cards are Randomly drawn, but the RTP will come into play over a cycle.

Nate

 

[silcnlayc]

rouletteguy: Just trying to find a way to find some proof because without it we can't prove anything, It can be considered here say.

Exactly my point.

4 of a kind: No one is saying their rigged or cheating. They want to offer us a game of chance. All we want to know is what are the odds?

Another point well made. How do you trust something when no one is watching the fox, while the hens play merrily in the yard?? And there is NO ONE that watches the fox. (Called regulation)

Casinos can claim anything they want as they have ..trying to blow off questions made by players...that is not proof..that is avoidance...and avoiding to answer something this important raises red flags everywhere for many players..and if it doesn't ..then you are on your own..for believing everything told to you by entities that have no governing bodies is truly not a smart thing to do.

.

 

[love2winalot]

Hiya: If 4 of a Kind was to send a PM, or E mail to different Casino Reps, on this board, and ask them to tell us what the games are set at, and in his communication, inform them that he is posting the question, and whom he asked the question to, on this board, would that be OK?

Then, everyone would know that, "insert casino rep name here", at, "insert casino here", was directly asked the question, and then refused to answer, or dodged the question, or actually answered the question. Kind of like the theroy of writing your congressman, and not getting an answer, and now getting everyone to write the same congressman. After a while they will get tired of it, and almost be forced to say/do something, maybe?

or is this a no no in the eyes of the board Mods?

 

[Rusty]

I will say that you can still have fun playing online though certainly your $ might not last as long as it did a few years ago.
If you stick to reputable casinos you will probably have a "winning" session sooner or later.

I normally throw out some numbers and play data in these type of threads but I know that turns a lot of people off and they can not relate to how that translates into their gaming experience so I will just talk in general terms about my slot play experience and other people can decide for themselves if they can relate their play to it at all.

What frustrates me is the streakiness of all the software I have played.
Some are less streaky than others but these unnatural cycles still occur.

What is unnatural about winning and losing streaks when gambling you may sensibly ask.

What is unnatural are the huge upswings always followed by huge downturns in the RTP and how this manifests itself in the play data.
So you may be hobbling along over many deposits getting around 85% RTP for example when one day, happy, happy all your favourite slots suddenly throw out retriggers a plenty and wins of x 50+ are suddenly fairly common where as conversely you hit only one in the last dozen deposits, duh?

If you carry on you will eventually hit the ceiling of this streak and pow!
You won't just start getting the 85% type play again and lose slowly you will get closer to 50% and every slot that was throwing wins at you is suddenly dead.
Slots where the scatter (feature trigger) and wild double as one symbol are very obvious as you may not see the scatter/wild symbol on reel one for an eternity (3 stop positions that are suddenly and magically impossible to hit)
The other reels are not much better though you may hit reel 4 and 5 together to pay a scatter win.

You will be going several hundred spins between triggering features and shock and surprise they pay next to nothing without a sniff of a retrigger.
Each software and slot has its own idiosyncrasies but the general pattern will be the same but because the software retains a random element you will always get the odd blip in either a win streak or death streak - however if I check my optimum RTP and results then the RTP and results from there against my "average" session I will see they are quite anomalous.

Just recently (in the last week) I have had streaks on both Playtech and MG software that fit this pattern exactly and have repeated it many, many times over the years.
My feeling is the upswings are not as large as they used to be and the downturns are are more brutal and last longer.
That would be a natural occurrence if the slots were weighted and/or the RTP generally set lower than it was in the past.

Now at some Casinos I seem to never hit and always get below expected results while at others I will get these streaks from time to time.
At some Casinos (including only casinos I have played many deposits) I will be at around low 90's percentage wise and at others around mid 80's or even lower.
Am I getting a fair game?

The answer is probably yes at some casinos and no at others but how can you trust software that does not need to stipulate the RTP for any given game on any given day?

Because their RNG has been tested? No
Because they are licensed by Kahnawake or Coata Rica? No
Because they are licensed by Alderney or Gibraltar? No
Because the Casinos can make as much money at 98% RTP as 85%,No
(Don't anyone ever bring this stupid argument up again for why Casinos are fair, please!)

The reason I added respectable whitelisted jurisdictions is because that while you would be much wiser playing at Casinos licensed by these jurisdictions they do very little ensure that the games are always the same RTP and nothing at all about them being weighted.
For example after initial checks and a license is granted by Alderney how proactive do you think they are?
Well they check the audit results of their Casinos once a year - and that is it!
Otherwise they will only investigate complaints.
There are no such things as random checks on the software - not according to the email reply I received from them.

So if these slot designs and games are legitimate and the RTP alterable even by the best regulated Casinos what goes on at the other end of the scale?

I suggest you write to whichever whitelisted jurisdiction your favourite casino is licensed by and ask them specifically what they have done, where and when in the last 12 months to ensure the integrity of the software and RTP of the games.
See if that brings you any comfort.

Ultimately you can still have fun at remote casinos and I seriously doubt any top brand Casinos would even consider using rigged software (so unlikely I pretty much dismiss it) - so stick to low stakes make these casinos your home but don't just put up with poor or anomalous results.
Even these Casinos have different RTP settings.
Nothing will ever change if we just accept this is as good as it is going to get.

Stay safe, have fun.

 

[Rusty]

Hiya: If 4 of a Kind was to send a PM, or E mail to different Casino Reps, on this board, and ask them to tell us what the games are set at, and in his communication, inform them that he is posting the question, and whom he asked the question to, on this board, would that be OK?

Then, everyone would know that, "insert casino rep name here", at, "insert casino here", was directly asked the question, and then refused to answer, or dodged the question, or actually answered the question. Kind of like the theroy of writing your congressman, and not getting an answer, and now getting everyone to write the same congressman. After a while they will get tired of it, and almost be forced to say/do something, maybe?

or is this a no no in the eyes of the board Mods?

That would be transparent at least.
Of course some Reps and Casinos here are much more respected than others so it may be that the truth is silent and the proclamation a lie.

 

[4 of a kind]

I sent a PM to these reps listed here at CM. I choose the ones that seemed to be active. There are many more reps listed but appear to be in-active. Here is a copy of my PM:

Would you mind answering this question about video poker and Black-Jack; if the games are being run off software designed to pay out based on RTP settings (like slots), or Random Draw software based on probabilities? Also what is the maximum house edge % you are authorized to set your games at based on gaming regulations?

Thank you in advance for your reply and please respond in this thread: https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/nothing-good-to-say-about-online-gaming.39799/

If you don't understand my question please read this article for a better explanation. https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/is-online-blackjack-software-rtp-based-or-random.38938/


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[4 of a kind]

Casino Reps please respond here:

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/casino-reps-please-respond-here.39817/

 

[rouletteguy]

well hey this is a gambling website should we start a pool of for and against reps responding? I bet at least one does but provides an elusive technical answer instead of a simple a or b or b with no proof but i'm gonna bet elusive technical jargon. is the response we get.