Is online blackjack software RTP based or Random?

[winbig]

One game that a strategy works, is blackjack. At least in BJ it's still random, but of course you're not going to double down on a hard 20 and give your money away.

 

[4 of a kind]

One game that a strategy works, is blackjack. At least in BJ it's still random, but of course you're not going to double down on a hard 20 and give your money away.

Please provide me with confirmed information that any online casino Black-Jack game or any other card game (video poker etc.) is running from a 52 card deck random draw platform and not running off an RTP platform. Direct me to where I could read this as being fact. Also, somebody said so isn't good enough.

Thank you...

 

[winbig]

Please provide me with confirmed information that any online casino Black-Jack game or any other card game (video poker etc.) is running from a 52 card deck random draw platform and not running off an RTP platform. Direct me to where I could read this as being fact. Also, somebody said so isn't good enough.

Thank you...

So you're saying that online blackjack is played with decks that are more, or less, than 52 cards? Everything I've ever seen confirms that the cards are dealt with X number of decks, based on an unlimited shoe. A new shoe is "shuffled" after every hand. I think there's a few casinos that don't run those unlimited shoes, but I forget which ones.

Well, here's 32Red's description of various games:

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Based on five card draw poker and a 52 card deck, ....

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... The game is played using two regular 52 card decks.

So basically a publicly traded UK business is going to lie to you? The odds in their casino are no different than they would be at any other offline casino. That's the greatness of running a casino. The advantage is always in the house's favor. Why would they want to risk billions of dollars over running a crooked game when they know that they're always going to win (and make more money over time) by running the fairest game they can?

Seriously, why all the conspiracy theories? Are you still gambling online? If so, then why?

So now I ask you -

Please provide us with confirmed facts that online casinos are NOT playing with a standard 52 card deck, and how these games aren't being played out in the same fashion that you would expect to see at an offline casino.

 

[4 of a kind]

I never said once the games were not played with a 52 card deck. Stop trying to twist this into me being an idiot.

The key words missing from your quotes is RANDOM DRAW.

Based on five card draw poker and a 52 card deck

Based on five card draw poker does not mean random draw.

Do you even understand the difference between random draw and RTP draw?

 

[winbig]

Since I'm apartment bound, maybe I'll just run 1 million hands of BJ on autoplay using basic strategy at a MGS casino and post my findings here. As you know, MGS provides quite a detailed breakdown of %'s in regards to starting hands, # of BJ's, etc.

If the %'s are within 3 SD's of what you would expect from a B&M casino, then I think that's enough evidence in itself.

 

[4 of a kind]

Maybe you missed these interesting articles I posted here a while back.

Do The Casinos Cheat At Video Games

So I had to do my homework. My fellow gaming writers have assumed that because New Jersey is a regulated state, its regulations are the same as Nevada concerning video-poker machines. Had anyone really bothered to talk to the members of the New Jersey Casino Control Commission or ask to see a copy of the regulations? If the anonymous letter writer in Blackjack Forum was right—New Jersey did not have the same rules governing video-poker machines as did Nevada.

I called the New Jersey Casino Control Commission to see if I could ease my fears or fuel my fire. After all, the control commissions of the various gaming jurisdictions set the rules that the casinos must abide by. Supposedly these commissions exist to protect us—the players. I spoke with Tony DiFlorio who told me that while the video-poker machines must conform to the same payback percentage range as any other slot machine, that is 83% to 99% return, "they are considered slot machines" and that there are no separate requirements for them as in Nevada. When I asked him if they must be based on a totally random shuffling of the cards, and that each hand must theoretically appear with its expected frequency, he stated that there were only two criteria for the machine. The first— “that it falls within the payback scheme” (83% to 99%) and the second that "every sequence be in the programming."

"But that means," I said, " that if a natural royal flush is a 40,000 to one shot, the machine could be programmed to pay it once in every 300,000 hands or more?"

"Yes," he said. "The machine has to have the royal flush sequence in the programming just as a slot machine would have to have for example the triple 7's but the frequency is up to the programming."

Two days later I received a set of the regulations from John M. Kovac, Administrative Practice Officer for the New Jersey Casino Control Commission concerning slot machines in New Jersey. No distinctions were made between video-poker and other slots. The information that Mr. DiFlorio had given me checked out. Indeed, the letter writer to Blackjack Forum had been correct. Video-poker machines in Atlantic City are slot machines and the probabilities are not necessarily the same as they would be for similar machines in Nevada. Remember, Nevada is based strictly on the random shuffling of 52 (or 53) cards. The hands will appear in the long run within their expected frequency range. This does not have to be so for New Jersey Casinos. The game will be random, yes, but random the way a slot machine is random—that is, based on a program that dictates the probabilities and not based on the probabilities in a 52 (or 53) card deck.

The bottom line? Here it is. For those of you who can play in Nevada, assuming the problem of like-card discard was just a "blip" or at worst a programming flaw in some machines as Dr. Schneider suggested, all the strategies in this book can be confidently applied because the game is what it appears to be—video poker based on a random shuffle with no variable programming or secondary decisions. The hands will come up with their expected probability in the long run.

Unfortunately, I can't recommend the Atlantic City video-poker games because I can't be confident that the strategies outlined in this book would be the most effective strategies to play on variable programming machines or secondary decision machines—especially for the supposedly better-paying machines. If, for example, the royal flush is a one in 1,000,000 chance instead of a one in 40,000 chance in Atlantic City—a Draw Poker Jacks-or-Better hand such as ten of spades, jack of spades, queen of spades, king of spades and a king of hearts would probably return more by keeping the two kings and discarding the other cards. You might have to play the Atlantic City game based on the "a bird in the hand is worth more then two in the bush" principle. Take your little wins when you get them and be happy. For Atlantic City, the best principles to use would be to choose a video-poker machine as you would choose a slot machine. Use the money management techniques of a slot player because you could be playing a slot machine dressed in video-poker machine's clothing.

But what of other jurisdictions in America? With gambling fever spreading like wild fire throughout the country how can players know what they're playing? They can if they take the time to look over the regulations governing the machine games in the casinos where they wish to play. All regulatory states must explain the criteria of their machines. New Jersey isn't cheating the players (technically)—the rules clearly show what their machines have to be—slot machines returning 83 to 99 percent. The fact that the players and gaming authorities assumed the New Jersey rules were the same as Nevada is their fault.



Some other excerpts from a different article:

Video poker machines use random number generators to determine which cards to deal. This makes the dealing completely random. For this reason, the odds of being dealt a winning hand after the pre-draw are entirely predictable. However, the odds of winning after the discard depend on your discarding strategy.

In Nevada and most other locations in the U.S. where casino gambling is legal, the software used in any video poker or video blackjack game has to be approved by the state’s Gaming Control Board or other government entities. In most states (but not all), the law requires that for video games that represent card games, the cards must be dealt randomly from a full 52-card deck or decks. In these games, the house edge on a machine can be accurately determined by a player simply by looking at the machine’s payout schedule and rules. If the payout schedule and rules would give the house a ½% edge dealing fairly from a full 52-card deck or decks, you know that you will be giving up ½% on every bet you place in this game.

So by crooked, I mean any software in which a game is either not being dealt from a full 52-card deck, or in which the cards are not being dealt randomly. Instead, the games are rigged to pay out at fixed percentages just like slot machines.

The fear of this type of crooked software is what keeps most gamblers from playing at Internet casinos.

In a casino where the software is rigged to give the house a higher edge, the cards may never even out. You may keep busting your stiffs and losing your double downs, or never getting royals or 4 of a kinds or flushes or even pairs of jacks or better, because the software is designed specifically to deal you cards that will make you lose.

Crooked software is perfectly legal in some states and foreign countries.

These types of software are legal to use in Internet casinos as well, unless the country where the casino is physically located or licensed prohibits the use of such software. Nevertheless, while this software may be legal, just as it may be legal to set a slot machine to win whatever percentage the casino wants, most players would not consider these games fair.

 

[winbig]

Yes, I do. At least I believe so.

Like for example, the casino that's on the rogue list for having cheating software?

You know, the one where the dealer hit a hard 17 to make 21 against a player's 20?

Sad thing is, they could have gotten away with it if their programmers had half a brain.

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/start-your-casino-com-evil-software.8193/

https://www.casinomeister.com/casino-reviews/start-your-own/

 

[4 of a kind]

Like for example, the casino that's on the rogue list for having cheating software?

You know, the one where the dealer hit a hard 17 to make 21 against a player's 20?

Sad thing is, they could have gotten away with it if their programmers had half a brain.

I never said a word about rogue software, nor did I accuse any casino of using rogue software. I just want to know for fact which program card games are being run on. Random Draw, or RTP draw. You still haven't answered my question. I believe so means nothing.

If an RTP program is set at 99% the same that a random draw game would be, (with perfect play) who cares what program there using. The payback will be the same in the long run. The only difference being that random draw will always remain the same, RTP games can be lowered just like slot games. Like the article above states as long as the setting are within regulated range technically no one is cheating..

So I ask you again are online card games random draw or based on the RTP settings?

By the way online roulette, craps, etc. are all also RTP programed games.

And if you really do care I quit online gaming about 2 months ago.

 

[winbig]

If every card is being dealt out at the same % online as they would come out offline, then I would think it's definitely a random draw. If they were coming out any different, then I'd be worried.

And yea I know all about the RTP draw...that's why I'll never play ANY electronic BJ machine again, ever. The ones here in PA, and I assume everywhere, payout the same as slot machines.

 

[4 of a kind]

Las Vegas for fact runs video poker games from random card draw.

Atlantic City for fact runs video poker games from RTP draw.

So now I ask you -

Please provide us with confirmed facts: Which system are online casinos running their video poker games from for fact??

 

[winbig]

Las Vegas for fact runs video poker games from random card draw.

Atlantic City for fact runs video poker games from RTP draw.

So now I ask you -

Please provide us with confirmed facts: Which system are online casinos running their video poker games from for fact??

As I said before, provide us with facts to the opposite.

 

[4 of a kind]

As I said before, provide us with facts to the opposite.

I can't prove anything for fact one way or the other. All I want to know is what system online casinos use?

 

[4 of a kind]

Winbig:

If your even out there looking for confirmation of what platform these card games are based on, (random draw or RTP draw) can you also try and confirm what platform is being used with every other game being offered online excluding slots?

Thanks...

 

[4 of a kind]

Before this thread totally fades away like others similar to it, does anyone out there know the answer to this question:

Do the video poker and BJ games being offered online run off a true random card draw program, or an RTP program which would then classify theses games nothing more then another slot machine?

Thank You

Note: Please refrain from ridiculous answers like WinBig's accusations and assumptions. The question at hand requires a simple answer...

 

[4 of a kind]

It has become obvious with all the seasoned advocates and casino reps here I still can't get a confirmed answer.

Bryan, is there anyway you could gather this information with confirmed fact?

 

[funeral979]

I wish I could give you an answer based on millions of hands of compiled stats. Unfortunately I am not as organized as I used to be. However, I HAVE played millions of hands of online blackjack in the past seven years...and my gut and common sense tells me that it is nothing more than a slot machine with cards instead of reels.

It is painfully obvious that whenever you make larger bets, the software goes into another mode....perhaps taking out x number of face cards. I have brought this up before....and usually get met with the response that, "well, you only have a small sample....you need to play tens of thousands of hands to have something to base this on etc etc etc" Well, I am not going to test out a software placing $50-$100 bets to see if its fair or not. I am not an idiot. I am sure software developers know this, and therefore only put this 'gaff' in when your bet reaches $xx ....so it will not be as obvious.

I mean,how many small samples do you need to gather before you can finally say, yeah something isn't right here????

We have all noticed the short pauses, and then all of a sudden the dealer just goes on a huge winning streak. It is so predictable with Microgaming....everything is going along just fine...then you get that little pause/stutter/whatever you want to call it....and you are dealt a beautiful 11 against a dealer 5 or 6...well you may as well just shut down the software....you will lose that and hand, and the next, and the next....as dealer gets bj,20,bj,20, repeat, repeat, repeat....yep, its thee RTP kicking in...evening things out...

And it is the same across the board....MG, RTG, 3Dice, BetOnSoft, Rival (which steals no matter what you bet)

Of course this is all just my opinion and observation based on 7 years of almost daily play

 

[4 of a kind]

Of course this is all just my opinion and observation based on 7 years of almost daily play

Yes funeral I've come to the same conclusion. After playing compulsive video poker online for over 7 years and being satisfied with the results (even though a loser overall) regardless what system they were using I felt the results at least simulated the same as random draw. This would include millions and millions of hands of personal experience.

Of course allowing a fair amount of time for negative variance, after three more years of complete abuse, I too am convinced it has to be run on a RTP program and these results which also include millions of hands are from RTP's being lowered and not just a little.

These results from personal experience are the reasons for me quitting online gaming a few months ago. (which I miss dearly)

I still would like to know for fact how the games are run just for personal satisfaction that I just couldn't be that fn unlucky.

I'm also sure no one is going to be able to confirm this for fact, I certainly was unable to retrieve any information whats so ever during my attempts. I'm sure any answer to this question is going to be based on he said, you said, she said.... Or secret inside connections similar to the MASONS that are needed to find out even the most basic questions one might have about online gaming.

You would think that a casino rep would rush to this question and brag about their casino being on a random draw with evidence to back it up. But it is obvious their unable to and elect to remain mum on the subject. As far as I'm concerned that alone is enough evidence for me and you that our assumptions could only be correct.

 

[funeral979]

And just as there are RTP settings for slots, you can pretty much bank on the fact that there are also RTP settings for table games.

In case anyone wonders why I would still play online blackjack for 7 years if I believe they cheat.... well even a cheat will let you win every so often. I expect to lose a good amount of time, but I expect to lose within the confines of the mathematics of the game. Not when the software 'decides' if its time for me to win or lose.

 

[Westland Bowl]

.....Do the video poker and BJ games being offered online run off a true random card draw program, or an RTP program which would then classify theses games nothing more then another slot machine?

I don't know about video games but blackjack seems suspect to be RTP at more online casinos lately, in my opinion. I play or wager a certain way and the casino adjusts to it. The blackjack game is already in the casino's advantage but they go the extra step to do some artificial intelligence work in or with the RNG. I don't really know this as a fact but I've seen strange stuff over the years, especially lately. I'm certain such things are classified above top secret with the software providers and casino owners.

I guess somebody (not me!) would just have to open an online casino with one of the major software providers and tell us it's secrets, basically sacrificing his stake in it.

 

[funeral979]

I play or wager a certain way and the casino adjusts to it.

So true!

You are not only playing against the cards, but against the AI.

As the casino adjusts to my style, I have tried to counter by readjusting my playing style. Its like you are playing cat and mouse with the software, not blackjack.

I am about ready to give up online gambling myself, but like 4OAK, I want the satisfaction of knowing what it REALLY is that I have been up against.

 

[Westland Bowl]

....It is painfully obvious that whenever you make larger bets, the software goes into another mode....perhaps taking out x number of face cards. I have brought this up before....and usually get met with the response that, "well, you only have a small sample....you need to play tens of thousands of hands to have something to base this on etc etc etc" Well, I am not going to test out a software placing $50-$100 bets to see if its fair or not. I am not an idiot. I am sure software developers know this, and therefore only put this 'gaff' in when your bet reaches $xx ....so it will not be as obvious.

I mean,how many small samples do you need to gather before you can finally say, yeah something isn't right here????.....

And whenever I mention about having an independent 3rd party do the card drawing, I always encounter dead silence. With land casinos you can see the cards in a transparent shoe- not so with online casinos.

 

[aceking123]

regarding to my own play at online casinos im in no doubt that cards is in fact a slot machine powered game , as you guys have already pointed out it seems so funny that when you start to make larger stakes all of a sudden it switches play for the worst , ive seen on many occasions this shift of good play to just down to good old right robbery , its purely funny that i sometimes can tell from the cards displayed that im going to lose no matter what i do regarding to take a card or not , how many people in here get that feeling ? , example like if you have 20 & the dealer has a five or something you know one way or another that those cards are going to ammount to 21 ive seen this time & time again , im not whining about it but common there has to be a truth in this somewhere, if this was pure random & not rng this wouldnt happen all the time , yes im stating the cards at low levels play far better than £25+ stake , well if its random where the hell is my 9 winning hands in a row it just never happens at higher stakes to me , yet it happens to the dealer too many times ,just my thoughts i dont play cards to much since ive been ripped that many times i may aswell just chucked it in the bin ,the one place i do play cards is at 3 dice ,but today after a cracking run of low stakes & good wins i upped the stakes & bang it wasnt so good , but there shall be another day to give it a bash at higher stakes, for me micro gaming & rtg are far worst than others , they just seem to know when to switch .

 

[Westland Bowl]

So true!

You are not only playing against the cards, but against the AI.

As the casino adjusts to my style, I have tried to counter by readjusting my playing style. Its like you are playing cat and mouse with the software, not blackjack....

Oh, yes! I've learned to adjust to THEIR adjustments and I've done very well at a number of casinos (not just the Heroes one.) But lately, since November '09, I have not been able to win at ANY online casino. It doesn't matter whether it's Microgaming, RTG, Vegas Technology, etc., I've been getting the same old **** at all of them! I've even begun to wonder if Quacktender is somehow sharing across software platforms how to beat me to those I deposit with! There used to be lag time between my adjustments and their adjustments, say 10-15 sessions but now its nearly immediate. This leads me to believe the software or programmers just gave up on trying to beat me but just program the software to force losses when certain criteria (such as bet size or profit in past 5 hands for example) are tripped. Basically what you are saying too.

I am about ready to give up online gambling myself, but like 4OAK, I want the satisfaction of knowing what it REALLY is that I have been up against.

I actually didn't play blackjack for the past four months but recent play still proves out the above. I think only regulation would solve the problem unless software inspectors are paid to look the other way. Otherwise, I'll start making trips to land casinos.

 

[4 of a kind]

Random draw games would always balance out to the expected odds.

Westland Bowl's Quote here:

"I've even begun to wonder if Quacktender is somehow sharing across software platforms how to beat me"

None of this would be necessary since lowered RTP's are all that's needed. There is no way online video poker or BJ with perfect play is playing 98% to 99% for years now.

I'm confident this is a closed case for serious and educated players of these games. These games are run off RTP platforms with settings being constantly lowered attempting to stay in stride with the economy.

Over the last few years I'm certain online casinos lost most of their serious gamblers and certainly won't retain any new ones for any period of time. They pretty much reduced themselves to bonus tactics to recruit new and adolescent players.

 

[funeral979]

Well this is timely! As this thread was unfolding today I started playing on a free $100 bonus from Bella Vegas. 15 minutes in I got 4 aces playing double bonus poker for a cool $200. Here you can see how their random blackjack can easily take out a $400+ balance. No wins over $40....and an abnormal amount of pushes if you ask me.