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Nothing good to say about online gaming

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by 4 of a kind, Aug 29, 2010.

    Aug 29, 2010
  1. 4 of a kind

    4 of a kind Repeated violations of forum rule 1.16 - troll

    Occupation:
    Trans. Tech
    Location:
    New York
    I'm starting this thread actually in response to another thread titled "Does anyone have any good news" since I thought this didn't fit there.

    Online casinos have chosen to let the industry evolve into what it has become today. Maybe it was a direct result of the uncertainty for their future after the UIGEA was passed in the USA. But everyone would have to agree that over the past few years online gaming has hit new lows. They have done nothing to improve their image and on the contrary have done a great deal in redefining the term “ROGUE”, constantly exhibiting never ending contemporary tactics never seen before, while keeping the old ones in place.

    Like I said many times before I have never been screwed by any online casino in the past or too this day, and didn’t even know what goes on till joining this forum in March of 09. Up until 2007 I was always satisfied with my online gaming results. I could not care less what software platform the games were being run from nor even cared to find out. But after 2007, 2008, 2009, and this present year I realized things have changed drastically.

    This led to me joining several other gaming forums and my desire to find out what was really going on. To me it became obvious that video poker which is the predominate game I play had to be running off a RTP platform like slots. After millions of hands over the last four year period it was obvious the probabilities were way out of range. This could only be a result of lowered RTP’s. So it’s obvious in the past these games were always run off an RTP platform but they were set high enough to equal expected returns from Random Draw. Any professional player would have never noticed the difference or have any reason to question the software.

    This is the direct reason that led me to my quest for fairness. I am 57 years old with plenty of time and access to computers wherever I may be. I pursued alleged online regulators in Gibraltor, Alderney, Curaco, Antiqua, (and a few more I can’t think of now) with written requests about game regulations, by snail mail and e-mails. I left every possible way for them to contact me, home address, phone number, e-mail address, and didn’t receive one single response in any way, shape, or form or even an acknowledgement it was received. No casino rep has ever responded to my questions on the forum either when it came to game regulation.

    The only alleged confirmation we ever got on some issues is by Bryan talking to inside connections that refuse to be identified. I trust Bryan for his word but he can’t be positive who he’s talking to is 100% being upfront since this is a billion dollar industry that I’m certain they wouldn’t want to be jeopardized.

    In addition we have affiliates and advocates that no doubt exhibit prejudice opinions when issues involve casinos they promote. This behavior is not always obvious at first, but if you were to read many of the active gaming forums (which many people don’t) their motives do in fact become obvious.

    I miss online gaming in a big way. It was a great way to pass time which I have plenty of with excitement. Gambling is in my DNA and I'm now being forced backed to B&M's like many other past online gamers. I stay current reading everything about it (including hopes of USA regulation) and find it repulsive to sit back and not express my opinions from personal experiences regardless if what I say offends anyone. I'm always ready to stand corrected, and have been several times in the past.

    Unfortunately regardless of what some will try to convince otherwise, there is no regulation being implied and or intended. Everything needs to be exposed be it good or bad about online gaming in its present form.

    So why does it seem there’s not many good things being said about online gaming especially lately? Maybe because if I wanted I could make a list that would consist of at least a thousand reasons why online casinos can’t be trusted and that list would be certain to grow in the future; and could only list maybe four reasons why you might trust a list of casinos you could count with only one hand and a good chance of that small count even reducing in the future.

    All anyone wants is to know their losing their money fair and square. Online casinos had that chance to prove this and still do but endlessly refuse to be transparent. Refusing to be transparent is like a suspect pleading the 5th amendment in a murder trial and in my eyes with online gaming is all the evidence I need to convict.
     
    13 people like this.
  2. Aug 29, 2010
  3. takethemoney

    takethemoney Banned User - Chargebacks at Slotastic

    Location:
    Washington
    If you're living in the USA, then like me, you probably feel something has smelled like a rat for the past couple of years. I was losing almost every deposit for about a year. 2009 was very good to me, as I won over $45k in 4 random jackpots. It has been what's happened this year that has truely opened my eyes for me. 102 deposits and normally I take a bonus because I can't deposit $100 anymore and have any play time, so a bonus makes it possible to have that several hours of play time. I have only twice made playthrough this year and when I did, it was not with enough money left to withdraw once the bonus was removed. That just isn't right. I have been told that RTG is independent of each other and there is no global RTP, but I suspect otherwise, as if once shut down, it is RTG wide. Can't prove it, but it effects me in a way where my skepticism won't allow me to play very often or deposit much when I do.
    I'm not one to chase losses, so my gambling is very light lately.
     
  4. Aug 29, 2010
  5. nisosbar

    nisosbar Ueber Meister PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    Other
    Location:
    Right here
    I recall your previous thread about this issue, and for me, the lack of response from any casino reps was confirmation that your argument was correct.

    If an online casino did in fact have a video poker game that was not subject to external RTP controls, then we all know the casino rep would be - at a minimum - taking opportunities here on CM to state that fact here unequivocally, even if they were reluctant to state that 'that other platform is NOT entirely random' (out of professional courtesy).

    Yes, this does not change the fact that some players DO get royal flushes from time to time, nor does it change the fact that the video poker games are fun, lol, but it DOES mean that referring to the card games online as "slotjack" or "slotpoker" is closer to the truth, in my opinion, than 'just like in a B&M casino at a table with a live dealer'. (Mileage may vary from my own, of course.)
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2010
  6. Aug 29, 2010
  7. takethemoney

    takethemoney Banned User - Chargebacks at Slotastic

    Location:
    Washington
    Not to have my own pity party here, but today is my birthday and I got a total of two birthday greetings from casinos. One offering me a special 100% match bonus and a $20 free chip at another, with a 5 x max cashout and 60x playthough. What happened to getting at least 500 - 600 every year, all kinds of ecards and chocolate and goodies in the mail and no strings attached? Business has to be way down, or nobody cares about the customers anymore. :confused:
    I have actually deposited more this year than last year, up until a couple months ago, when I decided it was not worth it.
     
  8. Aug 29, 2010
  9. kauphy

    kauphy Meister Member

    Occupation:
    mom
    Location:
    az
    happy b-day not to derail just wanted to make you feel a little better:D
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. Aug 29, 2010
  11. Mavin1

    Mavin1 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Caregiver/homemaker
    Location:
    Arizona


    Absolutely agree!!!!!
     
  12. Aug 29, 2010
  13. takethemoney

    takethemoney Banned User - Chargebacks at Slotastic

    Location:
    Washington
    Everyone seems to be forgetting that gambling should only be used for entertainment purposes......very expensive entertainment! ;)

    Years ago when they let more people win, they did so with the intention of getting a global market hooked on gambling online. Now that the mission has been accomplished, things are tighter because they know we fools have to have our fix and will continue to deposit, no matter what's happened to the odds.
     
  14. Aug 29, 2010
  15. Pulver

    Pulver Senior Member PABaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    Technical
    Location:
    Tellus
    And IF you are lucky enough to win a substantial amount, you have absolutley no guarantee of getting paid, CM acredited casino or not. The whole industry has become so vile it's sickening. Hearing casino reps comming on here and promote that it is "within our TC" to use 5 business day to pay a customer BY EWALLETS! Then when 5 days have passed, they are going to ask you for a clearer scan of your ID, or some nonsense. Not to mention my ongoing case with Lock casino..
     
  16. Aug 29, 2010
  17. 4 of a kind

    4 of a kind Repeated violations of forum rule 1.16 - troll

    Occupation:
    Trans. Tech
    Location:
    New York
    That's why my list is only temporally 4 deep which would also include a T&C that states deposit and play at your own risk.

    Now today two new complaints showed up I never saw before for me to add onto the ever growing negative list.

    1) Casino support convinces customer to make a larger deposit for a better bonus. After customer makes deposit then CS reports he's been banned from bonuses.

    2) Casino attempts to confiscate 1K in winnings cause customer got tired of the bullshit delays after a few days and mouthed off. Their grounds were quote: "Abusive language"

    They can hide in cyberspace with these tactics, but I could assure you if this was live, someone would be leaving the scene on a stretcher and someone else would be going to jail with assault charges against him or her.
     
    2 people like this.
  18. Aug 29, 2010
  19. Mavin1

    Mavin1 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Caregiver/homemaker
    Location:
    Arizona

    What I dissagree about with the above statment, is that gambling is only entertainment, albeit an expensive form. Gambling is set apart from other forms of entertainment in the fact that it has promise of monetary reward in return for your continued support.

    Going to a ball game, movie or other forms of entertainment, the only thing you walk away with is the play in your head.

    People, as it has been said before, do not gamble strictly for entertainment, they play because of the monetary promises. Hooking players in with a true balance of give and take and then evolving into mearly take, is a sick and sadistic joke on the players. Much like dangling a fat juicy hamburger in front of a hungry person and then giving them a dry cracker.

    There is no logical reason why gambling should be a con mans shell game, it wasn't before. Casinos and their groups that have shifted to this type of strategy will only be hurting themselves in the long run. Players will slowly but inevitably move away from casino groups that do not value their player base.

    But that's okay, if we cannot weed out the shell game casinos by ranting, then maybe the loss of our revenue will force them out of business and only the true casinos that value their support base will remain standing.

    To be rid of all the entertainment only casinos, a true casino would have a much larger player base, better RTP and would never have to worry about their gain because they would have more business than they knew what to do with.

    Why else are the games so tight, payout times so long and so on, because there are to many in competition now that they over diluted and exceeded the player base and gotten a bit to greedy by increasing the houses favor. Everywhere you look you see way to many of RTG and Rivals. The CEO's don't care how much they glut the industry, they are of the thinking more is better, but when it gets down the bottom, the players, we would say less is better.

    It would make an interesting study to see if things starting dropping off in online gamings popularity when casino clones started increasing.


    JMO
     
  20. Aug 29, 2010
  21. Rusty

    Rusty Banned User - repetitive flaming

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    I think you hit the nail on the head in your opening post.
    The technical standards for software are way too low meaning that even whitelisted jurisdictions will happily supply a license to Casino using software that has games such as VP that do not need to state they are just lottery games dressed as something else.

    This is my problem with all software and all the games - the algorithms that dictate the weighting of the draws.
    Don't get me wrong, it could be argued that these are still fair games but we have to ask ourselves why the software operates in this manner.

    Worse still software companies have been very economical with the truth when it comes to telling how their software operates - trade secrets they say.:rolleyes:
    I have to laugh at that because if it was just random and all probabilities of all events never changed there would be no secret to keep.

    If you ever question why you are suddenly getting 65% RTP on your last dozen deposits the casino will say, "Our RNG bla bla bla" which is pretty much meaningless because it is not the RNG that is the problem.
    All the games maintain a random element - it is the gaming algorithms that generate the results from the RNG data source that are the problem.

    This is perfectly legal and is probably seen as a way of enhancing the game experience by creating big wins, unnatural winning streaks or multiple feature retriggers (which we naturally have to pay for with unnatural losing streaks)
    and as I say it could even be construed as fair.
    The problem is that such a system is open to misuse (I would say misuse is unlikely by big brands but no doubt happens at smaller casinos)

    All I want are unweighted slots with 95%+ RTP and you can have your VP that checks the results after generating the cards from an unweighted virtual deck rather than generates the result then deals the cards.

    Any Casino/Software company that wants to challenge the validity of what I am saying is welcome to do so in this thread - it is a debate I have long been seeking.
    It won't happen though because they know I am right.:)
     
    1 person likes this.
  22. Aug 29, 2010
  23. takethemoney

    takethemoney Banned User - Chargebacks at Slotastic

    Location:
    Washington
    Mavin, I think you missed the sarcasm in my post. I should have been more clear of that. That is the position of most casino managers when one talks about having bad runs on the games. :)


     
    1 person likes this.
  24. Aug 30, 2010
  25. 4 of a kind

    4 of a kind Repeated violations of forum rule 1.16 - troll

    Occupation:
    Trans. Tech
    Location:
    New York
    Many posts here have touched on many finer points related to the negative press constantly being posted all over the place about online casinos. And believe me what’s being said here is only part of what’s being said everywhere else. The players posting didn't just walk onto the online gaming scene yesterday, but are long time veteran players like myself. This is the type of information along with the good; I feel is vital for newcomers to be familiar with before deciding to play online and thinking it is no different and as safe as B&M’s. Unfortunately most don’t find this and other sites till they were cleverly routed to an affiliate with flashing free bonuses and top 20 lists of the best online casinos along with alleged bullshit techniques to beat them, only to eventually end up rogued in one form or another, and were smart enough to look for help. You wonder how many people just took their lumps and figured they were scammed and just pulled out never to be heard from again.

    The casinos have the power to change this atmosphere but refuse too, just like they will refuse to comment on anything being said here and try to right the ship.

    Except for a handful I would have to guess by now online casinos have lost most of the serious gamblers I’m sure at one time existed. It’s also obvious the whole business is now revolving around bonuses and small time gamblers. All they have to offer for the player today is bonuses that give the illusion of a big bankroll. And should one of these players get lucky enough to overcome everything that comes with them they’ll find there only half way there to getting money in hand.
     
    1 person likes this.
  26. Aug 30, 2010
  27. love2winalot

    love2winalot Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Roulette Player
    Location:
    Philippines/Visiting Las vegas

    Hiya: This happens, Live all the time. Just the other day at my Bank, the guy in front of me was upset about something, "check on hold", i think. He started calling the Teller a bunch of names and *#!@(%# at her. The Bank manager told him to get out of the bank. But Why? It was HIS Money, and he was not being given acces to it?

    Because, is it not the responsibility of the, "Employer", to look out for the, "Employee"? If you were the Casino Employee, "or an Employee in any Job", and this happened to you, and your Employer did nothing, how would you feel? It seems to me that CS Reps, "in this case, on line casino reps", are they just suppose to sit there and, "Take it like a MAN". What if that Casino rep was your Daughter?

    Or, As a fellow player, do we just think that the, "Customer is always right", and it is their job to put up with us, no matter what? I know that I never have, and never will. I will not heisitate to hang up on you, or walk away from you, or close the door on you. And if my Boss was standing there when i did it, he had better be backing me up, or else he can go place an add in the paper for my replacement. ....................

    4 of a Kind: Does your post mean that even table games like Sic Bo & Roulette, are actually set to pay out, "Less" than what the odds of the game and type of bet say they are suppose to? Are you saying, that if a person is betting on the number, "7", every time, and that number is suppose to hit once every 37 spins, that when, "the casino" see's this, that they can, and do, cause that number to now hit less often, or not at all?

    Thanks.
     
  28. Aug 30, 2010
  29. 4 of a kind

    4 of a kind Repeated violations of forum rule 1.16 - troll

    Occupation:
    Trans. Tech
    Location:
    New York
    First of all as far as any player behaving like an immature asshole regardless how wrong a CS or whoever was, personally I would step in (if I were there) and try to point out to the asshole that he's behaving like an asshole. Considering this was done in cyberspace, as soon as the player started bad mouthing all they had to do was disconnect and report the incident to their manager. They could ban him from all other software related casinos if they want but they have no legal rights to steal his winnings. Then on the other hand since they allegedly now agreed to pay him, he should count his blessings because the word legal should never be mentioned in the same sentence with online casino.

    Whenever I spoke to casino support online I always would wait for the screen to identify who I was speaking with and always start my conversation with a good morning, afternoon, or evening followed by their name, and close with thank you for your time, regardless how happy I was or wasn't after the discussion. I was always well liked and actually in the days when most communications were done on the phone, I became personal with many reps. and benefited more then you could imagine with cash comps.

    As far as the banking incident you spoke of, his funds were not available yet, therefore the bank wasn't holding back anything. Were his funds available and they denied paying him cause he mouthed off, he could simply return with the police and get his money and the bank could ask to charge the customer with harassment, along with ejecting him from any further use of the bank. But all his money must be released first. The bank had no chance what so ever of keeping a single penny of his money.

    As far as your questions about the games you mention being played off of RTP or random software I would assume they too are playing off the RTP version based on what I read about players posted opinions. I could only speak with certainty about my experiences with Video Poker which I mastered and played online endlessly for a decade.
     
    1 person likes this.
  30. Aug 30, 2010
  31. rouletteguy

    rouletteguy Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    not for profit director addictions
    Location:
    Ontario
    It's not the casino altering anything it's built into the software. There are All kinds of conspiracy theories such as "trigger event software" RTP based table games etc. But none can be proven because it is possible for that losing variance to appear and there is no way to prove it is not a random event.
    I have personally found some online roulette rng's are reasonable and some will just eat your money time after time so I avoid those one's.

    I've made the switch to live online games but even they require a high degree of trust because there are those play's you make with a server glitch and delay as if another video is being loaded that make you wonder.

    If your losing.........quit that's all I can say the same as you would at a B/M
    because bitching about it isn't going to change anything. The day is coming when it will all be Government regulated and we'll learn if these games were stealing or not but til then all you can do is trust or quit.

    I would like to add as far as slots go a 10 grand plus win at a B/M can be considered a once in a lifetime event so if you've had several of these I can see no reason why you can call cheat just because you haven't managed another one.

    The slot machines are rtp based we know this as fact right? and it's audited monthly not annually I am assuming because they post monthly pay out rates. so it stands to reason that 5 years ago there were fewer player's at any given casino but the machine was still required to dish out x number of dollars right? well 1 in 1000 is better than 1 in 10000 of hitting successive wins. I really think it's just a matter of more people playing which lowers your odds of getting a hit compared to what they were before. Same thing though....... can't prove it either way.
     
    1 person likes this.
  32. Aug 30, 2010
  33. bryand

    bryand Beach Bum PABnonaccred mm1

    Occupation:
    Legal
    Location:
    Just Across the Hudson River
    It would be interesting to get CM's take on the current trends in online gambling. Could this be just a cyclical downturn or problems mainly in the US market? Or is the US market bringing down the industry? Or maybe a reflection of the economic recession?
     
  34. Aug 30, 2010
  35. silcnlayc

    silcnlayc Just one more spin pleez! CAG MM PABnonaccred PABaccred

    Occupation:
    IT Director of Operations
    Location:
    Left Hungary
    Ahhh yes...was wondering when this was going to show up .... "Nothing has changed" "stop playing" "No conspiracy" ....and the best of all is all the "facts" right there in front of you without one iota of "proof" all is above board...

    Yep....all is good in the online gambling world...keep plugging in your nickles...for nothing has changed...because they say so.. :rolleyes:

    .
     
  36. Aug 30, 2010
  37. all4greed

    all4greed Now we can do business.

    Occupation:
    Misc.
    Location:
    Pacific NW
    That one still bothers me. And as I've said time and time again, just when I think I've read every reason a casino doesn't want to pay a player, a new BS excuse comes along.
     
  38. Aug 30, 2010
  39. rouletteguy

    rouletteguy Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    not for profit director addictions
    Location:
    Ontario
    It's gotten a whole lot bigger if you complained about plugging a b/m slot full and never hitting it would be a non issue........ considered luck of the draw so why do people think an online casino should operate as a charity?

    Because they're bigger it only stands to reason that your chance of hitting has gotten alot smaller. Say 5-10 years ago a casino had 10 000 patrons as an average and now they have 150 000 your chance of a win is alot smaller now.

    People travel to Vegas everyday and plug in thousands with no big win so why should it be expected to win 1000 on every 4th or 5th 100 dollar deposit online?

    Reflect on the good ole day's because they're over the slots are still paying out just not to you and when you were winning back then someone else was losing.

    It would only stand to reason if a casino is cheating they are not meeting there 95% payout and instead skimming and pocketing otherwise what's the point? It would be alot easier to prove a publicly traded company is profiting more than they should as per RTP

    So we have alot of bright members here likely one is well versed in this sort of accounting thing go find which ones are profiting over and above. It's not cash every transaction has a paper trail so I think it'd be pretty hard to cheat their local governments.

    Just trying to find a way to find some proof because without it we can't prove anything, It can be considered here say.
     

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