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So the news on the radio said Cohen would have received max 70 years for those crimes. He got three.
North Korea and US politics
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vorcirion
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how many years mr. Trump deserves in your opinion?
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70 years seems a bit steep for tax fraud etc.., bernie madoff got sentenced to 150 years though, I must admit I don't really see the sense in these sentences beyond obvious life expectancy. cohen's 52 so would've needed to live to 122 to serve a 70 yr sentence...
On the bits I've read so far, mainly from stevie's post above, considering he was trump's attorney for 12 years, there wasn't much, in my eyes, that would lead to trump being impeached.
It just seems like more tittle tattle heaped on top of months and months of the same, and the democrats are still not really properly focused on winning the policy arguments, if you don't like trump provide a more attractive alternative, it's as simple as that surely?
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U.S. drops demand for full accounting of N. Korea nuclear program ahead of talks
The country's refusal to disclose all of its nuclear materials is the issue over which talks fell apart a decade ago.
The country's refusal to disclose all of its nuclear materials is the issue over which talks fell apart a decade ago.
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Mr. T needs to announce another "win", so he has something the brag about. For that he gives away the house, just so he can please his ego and his blind supporters.
Anything he does will be a BIG, tremendous achievement, even when it is hardly an achievement at all, just like NAFTA2.
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Cohen paid the back taxes so maybe that has something to do with the reduced sentence. He'll probably get time off for good behavior and be out in 2-2.5 years.
The democrats have moved even further left and if the Donald survives will get re-elected.
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Slotplayer in all your time, has the political soap opera ever been worse than this?
Michael cohen looked very sad in that video, but it sounds like he's brought a lot of this upon himself, maybe he thought being Trump's lawyer would give him some sort of protection through being connected to the billionaire class.
But he seems to have not realised the US establishment never wanted Trump to be president and would do their utmost to try and get rid of him. They went on a fishing trip to nail trump, and decided putting the president's lawyer on trial and then behind bars is one way of trying to damage donald by association. I doubt any of this tax fraud would ever have come to light if Trump had never ran for president...
Michael cohen looked very sad in that video, but it sounds like he's brought a lot of this upon himself, maybe he thought being Trump's lawyer would give him some sort of protection through being connected to the billionaire class.
But he seems to have not realised the US establishment never wanted Trump to be president and would do their utmost to try and get rid of him. They went on a fishing trip to nail trump, and decided putting the president's lawyer on trial and then behind bars is one way of trying to damage donald by association. I doubt any of this tax fraud would ever have come to light if Trump had never ran for president...
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Yet again, the self-proclaimed "Dealmaker-in-Chief" and "I alone can fix it" wizard can't make a deal no matter what. Falling on his knees to the "little rocket man" and experiencing what it means negotiating with North-Koreans. It was supposed to be sooooo easy! Tremendous achievement, tremendous progress AKA nothing has been achieved at all. 
Calling Kim, who murdered 1,000's of his citizens and keeps 100,00's in gulags, a "fantastic leader" show who te real Mr. T is..... absolutely despicable.
Calling Kim, who murdered 1,000's of his citizens and keeps 100,00's in gulags, a "fantastic leader" show who te real Mr. T is..... absolutely despicable.
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Yet again, the self-proclaimed "Dealmaker-in-Chief" and "I alone can fix it" wizard can't make a deal no matter what. Falling on his knees to the "little rocket man" and experiencing what it means negotiating with North-Koreans. It was supposed to be sooooo easy! Tremendous achievement, tremendous progress AKA nothing has been achieved at all.
Calling Kim, who murdered 1,000's of his citizens and keeps 100,00's in gulags, a "fantastic leader" show who te real Mr. T is..... absolutely despicable.
I see what you're saying, but then again he could hardy call him a murdering sh*t bag, he had to be 'something' leader, and trump has a stock amount of superlatives he likes to throw in everywhere, the alternatives were 'the best ever' or the 'greatest'. I did say he should have been a comedian, then again he's trying to be diplomatic and I still feel the elephant in the room is china.
My other theory is the US establishment started off all this north korea peace talk business as a way of occupying trump, they knew it was an impossible mission and doomed to failure but it would mean Trump had less time to do anything else in his first term. And if he wins a 2nd term, the NK peace talks will still be labouring on devouring his time and energy in a fruitless pursuit to get NK to disarm themselves.
In the presidential debates as far as I can recall there wasn't much if any discussion about North korea...
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Nah mate, I see it differently.
He just likes strongmen because he is so weak. He's cheating on his height in the medicals saying he's 6"3' when he's only about 6" tall. That's how desperate he is to look strong.
As for NK I don't see him being pushed. I think it he rather saw it as an easy win, simple to get done and get him the coveted Nobel Prize because Obama has one. That is how Mr. T is thinking, there is no establishment pushing him or anything the like.
I give you one more example. Cohen testified that Mr. T sent him to an auction to drive up the prize of a painting of Mr. T to be the most expensive in the auction. Ten minutes after the auction closed Mr. T was tweeting that his painting was the most expensive one. He is just desperate for attention because he is so weak.
In NK's case, it meant threaten NK with war, screw down on sanctions whitout thinking how much the innocent population itself will suffer, let the B2 bomber fly closer and closer to NK airspace, mock Kim where possible etc. and the Koreans will come begging for a deal - that was his simple-minded plan. It didn't pay off because the North-Koreans are not stupid. They know exactly what they have with their nuclear capabilities.
I'll give it another few weeks or even just days and the NK propaganda TV will paint the US again as the bad guys. Same same as ten, 15 and 20 years ago. Mr. T got played like a fiddle just like all other administrations. The difference is that the other took it on the chin and moved on, Mr. T bragged he would not be played.
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It’s not a fishing trip or a witch hunt when The Russians interfered with our elections on behalf of president trump. This is not conjecture. It is fact. Not fake news. So they will be looking at everyone around him.
The list is long. And this is who president trump associates with. His close associates. Imagine this was president Obama. We would have to peel the Republicans off of the ceiling.
The only people left and mueller I am guessing is leaving this till the very end is trump and his family.
Im pretty sure there is proof in terms of audio from other countries intelligence that trump knew about the Russian meeting and was actively seeking the help of the Russians.
The president is a liar and a crook.
Cohen proved that the president knew about hush payments when trump denied he knew anything. Cohen provided checks that show trump paid him hush money after he was president. And paid him from a charity foundation that has since been shut down and under investigation for being used inappropriately by the trump family.
There is nothing trump would do to make himself richer. Bedomin* president was just as Cohen said one long infomercial for the trump brand.
The full list of known indictments and plea deals in Mueller’s probe
1) George Papadopoulos, former Trump campaign foreign policy adviser, was arrested in July 2017 and
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in October 2017 to making false statements to the FBI. He got a 14-day sentence.2) Paul Manafort, Trump’s former campaign chair, was indicted on a total of 25 different counts by Mueller’s team, related mainly to his past work for Ukrainian politicians and his finances. He had two trials scheduled, and the first ended in a conviction on eight counts of financial crimes. To avert the second trial, Manafort struck a plea deal with Mueller in September 2018 (though Mueller’s team said in November that he
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by lying to them).3) Rick Gates, a former Trump campaign aide and Manafort’s longtime junior business partner, was indicted on similar charges to Manafort. But in February 2018 he agreed to a
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, pleading guilty to just one false statements charge and
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.4) Michael Flynn, Trump’s former national security adviser,
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in December 2017 to making false statements to the FBI.5-20) 13 Russian nationals and three Russian companies were indicted on conspiracy charges, with some also being accused of identity theft. The charges related to a Russian propaganda effort designed to interfere with the 2016 campaign. The companies involved are the
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, often described as a “Russian troll farm,” and two other companies that helped finance it. The Russian nationals indicted include 12 of the agency’s employees and its alleged financier, Yevgeny Prigozhin.21) Richard Pinedo: This California man
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to an identity theft charge in connection with the Russian indictments, and has agreed to cooperate with Mueller. He was sentenced to 6 months in prison and 6 months of home detention
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22) Alex van der Zwaan: This London lawyer
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to making false statements to the FBI about his contacts with Rick Gates and another unnamed person based in Ukraine. He was sentenced to 30 days in jail and has completed his sentence.23) Konstantin Kilimnik: This longtime business associate of Manafort and Gates, who’s currently based in Russia,
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alongside Manafort with attempting to obstruct justice by tampering with witnesses in Manafort’s pending case last year.24-35) 12 Russian GRU officers: These officers of Russia’s military intelligence service were
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related to the hacking and leaking of leading Democrats’
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in 2016.36) Michael Cohen: In August 2018, Trump’s former lawyer pleaded guilty to 8 counts — tax and bank charges, related to his finances and taxi business, and campaign finance violations — related to hush money payments to women who alleged affairs with Donald Trump, as part of a separate investigation in New York (that Mueller had handed off). But in November, he made a plea deal with Mueller too, for lying to Congress about efforts to build a Trump Tower in Moscow.
37) Roger Stone: In January 2019, Mueller indicted longtime Trump adviser Roger Stone on 7 counts. He accused Stone of lying to the House Intelligence Committee about his efforts to get in touch with WikiLeaks during the campaign, and tampering with a witness who could have debunked his story.
Finally, there is one other person Mueller initially investigated, but handed over to others in the Justice Department to charge: Sam Patten. This Republican operative and lobbyist
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to not registering as a foreign agent with his work for Ukrainian political bigwigs, and agreed to cooperate with the government.
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edit: moved below
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As far as I was aware the extent of the 'russian' help trump received were a few social media posts/images that were critical of hillary, which was happening anyway, plenty of americans on social media were actively slating hillary and her record. If the democrats had chosen bernie I think the russians would have preferred him over Trump, for them it was anyone but Hillary as she is a well known war hawk.
Also no one has suggested that the russians interfered with the republican primaries to get Trump nominated in the first place? Wouldn't they have also needed to do this, otherwise their 'masterplan' to get comrade trump elected would've failed at the first hurdle?
Due to the politicised nature of the Mueller witch hunt [e.g the roger stone fbi raid, as if he was dangerous man like el chapo ] and the US legal system's use of plea deals, I'm not sure mueller's charge sheet is all that impressive, if it was the election result would need to be annulled immediately and asap, not let Trump preside in the whitehouse for over two years??
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Nah mate, I see it differently.
He just likes strongmen because he is so weak. He's cheating on his height in the medicals saying he's 6"3' when he's only about 6" tall. That's how desperate he is to look strong.
As for NK I don't see him being pushed. I think it he rather saw it as an easy win, simple to get done and get him the coveted Nobel Prize because Obama has one. That is how Mr. T is thinking, there is no establishment pushing him or anything the like.
I give you one more example. Cohen testified that Mr. T sent him to an auction to drive up the prize of a painting of Mr. T to be the most expensive in the auction. Ten minutes after the auction closed Mr. T was tweeting that his painting was the most expensive one. He is just desperate for attention because he is so weak.
In NK's case, it meant threaten NK with war, screw down on sanctions whitout thinking how much the innocent population itself will suffer, let the B2 bomber fly closer and closer to NK airspace, mock Kim where possible etc. and the Koreans will come begging for a deal - that was his simple-minded plan. It didn't pay off because the North-Koreans are not stupid. They know exactly what they have with their nuclear capabilities.
I'll give it another few weeks or even just days and the NK propaganda TV will paint the US again as the bad guys. Same same as ten, 15 and 20 years ago. Mr. T got played like a fiddle just like all other administrations. The difference is that the other took it on the chin and moved on, Mr. T bragged he would not be played.
I'm not sure Kim qualifies as a strongman in the same way as Putin, to me Kim's just the figurative head of a totalitarian regime that's heavily backed by china, he's wholly reliant on the chinese say so. He probably would have to have a strong psychological mindset to cope with being in his position, the generals could arrange a coup overnight with the help of the chinese, he mustn't do anything that offends them or is against their wishes.
Trump though would be naive if he thinks buttering up to Kim changes anything, as if getting Kim onboard is the only sticking point to NK's nuclear disarmament. That is true about the nobel peace prize that could be one of donald's motivations, but I don't think the the committee would ever award trump, he'd be too right wing for their liking.
Trump is a self publicist, but he still seems to connect with his grass roots support, a lot who have basically nothing, the forgotten americans who lost their jobs as a result of globalism and greed, folk who might have voted democrat before.
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I've never seen the soap opera this bad. I lost track of it long ago. Its too hard to keep sorted. If Trump lost none of it would have come to light either.
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Maybe you should do some research before you reduce Russian interference in a major election to a few Facebook ads.
As well, the republicans were in charge of both house and senate. No way they would investigate. They’ve been dismissing thenmueller investigation since it begun.
As for the soap opera. Both you and slotplayer would probably dismiss president trump if he ever killed someone on 5th ave. Just like he said you all would.
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That's a bit harsh, and also a little mean to slotplayer if it was primarily my post that provoked this casual insult, but I can't help having a chuckle that you see it this way.
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amazing that the audience clapped and found it funny, deplorable is actually a good description of hillary herself.
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how is this mean? merely pointing out how you will both defend this guy till the bitter end.
you both think that a president who lies about what he knew and when he knew is negligible. so what, you are saying. should there no consequences for checks he wrote from a charity foundation(you can not use a charity foundation for personal use it is against the law) while he was president to pay off a personal debt? a personal debt which we call hush money to keep extra marital affairs out of the news. after months of denial.... there are checks. and he was supposed to have given up his businesses/foundations but he's still writing checks......and yet he was still pursuing the trump tower in russia.
what's it gonna take to make you say. wow. he's not a good guy.
have we normalized cheating and lying? 8900 of them to date.
have we normalized making money above all else?
have we normalized racism and we're calling it make america great again?
mr trump has manipulated and lied to all of us. except some of us will not defend him no matter what.
sorry history will prove that this man has cheated and lied and probably committed treason.
there is a sealed indictment against him in the southern district of ny....it is for money laundering. new yorkers knew it and soon the rest of america will get to know it.
my family and my mother are staunch republicans and my southern and canadian upbringing are keeping me from really telling you what i think right now.
but i don't get this whataboutism you are afflicted with. clinton is old news. don't get why we are still talking about her two years into this presidency but ok.
Lock him up!
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well mean in the sense if I hadn't written post 2112 you wouldn't have accused slotplayer of defending trump even if he killed someone on 5th avenue, so I think you wanted to attack me but used slotplayer as cover to make the insult seem less personal [and acceptable within the forum's ethos ] Like I said earlier it actually made me shake my head and laugh, I wasn't offended because it was just surreal.
I don't think I've ever said donald trump, with all his bragging and sharp business practice over the years etc.. is a 100% good guy, but I think on some issues he has displayed good sense e.g. against the stripping away of US manufacturing jobs, illegal immigration which is unsustainable and trying to address the flow of drugs and criminals across the us/mexican border, pointless meddling and wars in the middle east, the creeping agenda and increase of globalism etc..
Sometimes you have to vote for the least worse alternative, why would his base want to vote for hillary, she'd already made her view of despising them clear. Trump in his first political attempt also hands down beat all the other republican candidates, possibly as some of them were clearly not very republican on issues.
'whataboutism' is fundamentally about fairness based on consistency, a healthy democracy cannot be blasé and indulge in hypocrisy, so the tests you apply to trump's behaviour out of office and in office must be applied across the board, to your george bush's and bill clinton's; for example lying deliberately to start a war [bush/blair] where thousands of innocent people die is worse than anything Trump has done to date IMO.
Trump may get locked up, but he doesn't look particularly anxious or worried about it so I'm guessing the authorities have very little to throw at him, of enough seriousness.
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one thing I would criticise Trump for was his firing of rex tillerson who to me was far more a diplomat than pompeo ever could be and his hiring of john 'lets go to war!' bolton...
for me Trump will be an evolving story, I would never give him or any other politician uncritical support
for me Trump will be an evolving story, I would never give him or any other politician uncritical support
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1. The manufacturing jobs will never return in big numbers, no matter what you do. Consumer goods would explode in price.
2. He does not address it. The majority of illegal immigrants are people overstaying their LEGAL visa. Has he introduced any measures to curb that? BTW, the US like many other developed nation will need a certain level of immigration to avoid a reduction in population, thus leading to a collapse of the social security system which is already today under immense strain.
3. He does not address that either. 90% or more are coming through ports of entry. (He's building a wall and the drug cartels are laughing). So far Mr. T has done nothing in that respect, the WALL is his thing
4. Mr. T still meddles in the Middle-East and in the world, the only thing he did is side completely with SA and Israel. He's still in Afghanistan, he's still in Iraq, he's still in Nigeria, he's still in South-Korea (yeah, that is officially still a war)...list not complete. He's pulling out 1,600 troops from Syria to make him look good, nothing else. He has declared now a few times that ISIS has been defeated, yet anyone directly involved e.g. generals totally contradict him.
5. Has anyone managed to turn back time? How do you think you disconnect a completely connected world? BTW, it was the US who pushed globalism and Mr. T happily benefited from it for decades. Now he's trying to bring back coal and steel (total maybe 5000 jobs so far, but destroyed at least the equal number in companies that use steel).
Geez wake up, this guy has done nothing that is good for the normal US citizen. NADA! The only thing he did is as Cohen said: "broadcast the longest informercial ever for the brand Trump"
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Ah, I learn something new every day: sharp business practice is (amongst others) when a business man simply refuses to pay smaller contractors (in full) because he knows they don't have the money to start costly legal procedures. That's an interesting euphemism!
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But this is his first ever job as a politician, I'm sure he's on a learning curve, if the wall [if it ever gets built ] doesn't cut illegal immigration, drug trafficking etc.. I'm sure he'll double down on the ports of entry. There is an intent/desire to do something about it which is the difference between him and hillary and even other republicans like paul ryan; with the damage the drugs are doing in the USA to the young, vulnerable etc.. it could be argued Trump is acting in a very moral way, if he didn't give a stuff about people [which he is accused of] then he wouldn't be bothered or would just offer the same wishy washy solutions which have been tried already for decades and failed.
The immigrants themselves will get old and so then more immigrants would be needed to cover their pension shortfalls/social welfare, it's an endless cycle. There is far too much tax wasted by stupid politicians in the first place, if they spent the money carefully there should be sufficient money for pensions etc.. we have it in the uk so much money is wasted on bureaucracy.
wages haven't increased in real terms very much for years, mass immigration holds down wages, if products were manufactured in the US [like they used to be] they could be affordable if wages reflected the real cost of living, besides we are constantly being told we need to consume 'less'.
Higher quality goods which last longer [e.g clothes that last and don't fade etc..] would fit into this. Again taxes could be cut as less unemployment payments would be required, plus reform of govt waste would also lower the tax burden and free up income for slightly higher priced goods.
Its quite clear companies like apple who make billions could reduce their margins and make the same product in the USA, if they weren't so greedy, bringing back manufacturing should be a more democrat policy if anything as typically blue collar workers vote democrat, but under clinton they started to abandon them. [that's my understanding of the changes bill clinton brought in]
It could be argued having 20 trillion dollars of debt, the USA finances haven't benefitted as much as some individuals [e.g jeff bezos etc..] and companies like nike, apple etc.. from globalism, some degree of globalism is inevitable as china, india developed but it's going too far now, the banking crash of 2008 shows you what happens if you relax all the banking laws/rules which was/is a part of globalism.
I agree he is still meddling a bit in the middle east, and biased towards saudia arabia and israel but this is a continuation of long held US foreign policy; I think if he had his way he'd withdraw from afghanistan tomorrow but politically it's not possible, the republican senate would be up in arms.
At least Trump has spoken about those five areas I mentioned, the rest of mainstream politics pretty much avoids discussing them as if they are a given and not up for debate, the status quo will just carry on is their preference.
He seems to be still very popular in the US despite over 3 years of nearly constant negative press, the press he receives in the uk is 95% negative as well and he's not even our president but he offends the liberal elite and media, the same type who hate brexit and will do all they can to stop it happening despite a vote of 17 million britains for it. Just like the americans who voted for Trump, we can't all be stupid with low IQ surely ???
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Well it covers a broad range of morally questionable behaviour that business people do, deliberately underquoting to get govt contracts in the uk is popular, you could call your example a form of theft but because it's in the course of a business activity/transaction you can't call the cops, it has to be argued in a civil court. Then again in the uk you can get legal expenses cover for certain claims, if trump had a reputation for doing this its amazing all these buildings ever got built. A lot of accusations have been made against Trump leading up to the presidential election and since by the media who dislike him intensely, I haven't got the time or inclination to read up all the background details for every one, I did say in my post:
"with all his bragging and sharp business practice over the years etc.."
the 'etc..' was added on purpose for this reason to cover other things and I did say because of these I couldn't say 'trump's a 100% good person', could anyone say in all honesty politicians like Bush jr, T.blair, B.clinton, obama were 100% good people??
But he is on the receiving end of 1000% more criticism, why is that? As I said earlier which posters have not commented on was the illegal war on Iraq instigated by bush and blair a lesser crime than any trumps alleged to have done to date?
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But this is his first ever job as a politician, I'm sure he's on a learning curve, if the wall [if it ever gets built ] doesn't cut illegal immigration, drug trafficking etc.. I'm sure he'll double down on the ports of entry. There is an intent/desire to do something about it which is the difference between him and hillary and even other republicans like paul ryan; with the damage the drugs are doing in the USA to the young, vulnerable etc.. it could be argued Trump is acting in a very moral way, if he didn't give a stuff about people [which he is accused of] then he wouldn't be bothered or would just offer the same wishy washy solutions which have been tried already for decades and failed.
The immigrants themselves will get old and so then more immigrants would be needed to cover their pension shortfalls/social welfare, it's an endless cycle. There is far too much tax wasted by stupid politicians in the first place, if they spent the money carefully there should be sufficient money for pensions etc.. we have it in the uk so much money is wasted on bureaucracy.
wages haven't increased in real terms very much for years, mass immigration holds down wages, if products were manufactured in the US [like they used to be] they could be affordable if wages reflected the real cost of living, besides we are constantly being told we need to consume 'less'.
Higher quality goods which last longer [e.g clothes that last and don't fade etc..] would fit into this. Again taxes could be cut as less unemployment payments would be required, plus reform of govt waste would also lower the tax burden and free up income for slightly higher priced goods.
Its quite clear companies like apple who make billions could reduce their margins and make the same product in the USA, if they weren't so greedy, bringing back manufacturing should be a more democrat policy if anything as typically blue collar workers vote democrat, but under clinton they started to abandon them. [that's my understanding of the changes bill clinton brought in]
It could be argued having 20 trillion dollars of debt, the USA finances haven't benefitted as much as some individuals [e.g jeff bezos etc..] and companies like nike, apple etc.. from globalism, some degree of globalism is inevitable as china, india developed but it's going too far now, the banking crash of 2008 shows you what happens if you relax all the banking laws/rules which was/is a part of globalism.
I agree he is still meddling a bit in the middle east, and biased towards saudia arabia and israel but this is a continuation of long held US foreign policy; I think if he had his way he'd withdraw from afghanistan tomorrow but politically it's not possible, the republican senate would be up in arms.
At least Trump has spoken about those five areas I mentioned, the rest of mainstream politics pretty much avoids discussing them as if they are a given and not up for debate, the status quo will just carry on is their preference.
He seems to be still very popular in the US despite over 3 years of nearly constant negative press, the press he receives in the uk is 95% negative as well and he's not even our president but he offends the liberal elite and media, the same type who hate brexit and will do all they can to stop it happening despite a vote of 17 million britains for it. Just like the americans who voted for Trump, we can't all be stupid with low IQ surely ???
He will not double down on the ports of entry! The WALL is his win, and after that he will lose interest in doing anything further. The democrats approved in the last 15 years or so a multiple of what Mr. T tries to spend now on a medieval wall + what he calls border security. Obama deported more illegals from the US than Mr. T.
You do understand that the social security systems are a based on a "circle" principle? Legal immigrants will have paid similar amounts in taxed and social contributions like natives, so that argument doesn't really wash.
The world opened a pandora's box long, long time ago and has since developed at neck-breaking speed. Do you seriously think that Mr. T or anyone else can turn back time?
Obama pulled out of Iraq and got butchered for it by Mr. T himself and other Republicans. Please, inform yourself properly. Mr. T does only what suits himself and helps is popularity. Who's talking about the "beautiful health plan", the "tremendous tax cut" etc. today?
My starting salary in 1997 when I began working in the UK was GBP14,000. Today it is a multiple of that. It is all about what you do with your life.
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I give you two examples.
1. Mr. T is pushing (in vain) to bring coal and steel jobs back, knowing very well it won't happen, but it helps his popularity. People get the feeling he does something for them.
Now if he would be a good person/leader/president, he would instead of pushing "old" industries invest into the future jobs. And what has he done? He cut the education budget substantially.
2. He wants to get out of wars/stop meddling in the Middle East etc.
He increased the military budget to the highest ever AFAIK.
Does that sound like a good person who cares about people?
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yes, but he is not criticised by the mainstream media for no2 and neither do they suggest he carry out the required changes to secure the future jobs in the new industries and increase the education budget. The media represent the viewpoint of globalism, the powerful and wealthy, vested interests etc..., they dislike trump immensely, if they heavily pushed and lobbied for these things you've brought up maybe Trump would swing round in that direction.
As far as I can tell the media would rather concentrate on personal tittle tattle, if I had the time I could find thousands of quotes and puerile headlines that are just aimed at bringing him down, it's not constructive criticism as you've just provided but dumbed down soap opera. The kavanaugh case was classic, with the porn lawyer chipping in, it was deranged.
People can be contradicting, doing some good in one area and bad in another, like this new arms race with russia. The reason I gave for him having some morality was the desire to tackle/combat the drug trade coming from central/south america, there is a moral dimension to this, wanting to protect everyday americans and families from this blight which will and does cause a lot of misery.
In regards to Iraq the media was and is still pro that war, if trump criticised obama for withdrawing troops it was likely A) to gain favour with the media B) score political points. But I think out of all high profile figures, Trump was sceptical re the iraq war. And your point doesn't answer the point I raised "was the illegal war on Iraq instigated by bush and blair a lesser crime than any trumps alleged to have done to date?" it's a yes or no question really.
For all I know Trump may start a major illegal war of his own and I will then be as critical of him as bush and blair, and he will also become very unpopular with his base if he does so, bush and blair didn't care about that hence both their parties lost the next election cycles.
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The argument re mass immigration does wash, you said due to an ageing population there will be a shortage of funding for social security this need to be plugged by increasing the population through immigration, the logic being the tax receipts will go up [the welfare spending will also go up but that is another point, lets assume the immigrants are all net contributors] but then in 30 years you have another increase in the ageing population as the immigrants are now retiring, more tax money and workers are then required and so on, the net population is increasing every decade:
1960 population approx 189 million
2000 population approx 291 million
The reality of congress and the senate passing new bills and laws, how difficult it is has probably dawned now on Trump, hence no real talk about his health care reforms, he couldn't get them through if he wanted to.
I've never said he's the perfect president, far from it, but the flak he gets is ridiculous, and it just shows how poor and out of touch the democrats must be if a 72 year old first time politician can walk rings around them and despite wall to wall, 24/7 negative coverage.
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Some of the richest and most influential people like the Koch brothers are big supporters of Mr. T. Please stop painting him as a victim. He is not. To the contrary, he has been part of the "wealthy, vested interests, globalism" himself for decades.
It was discussed critically at length in the media when he focussed on "old industry" jobs and cut the education budget. Only Faux News and some other right-leaning outlets praised him to bring back a few steel and coal jobs as if he's the "messiah of the working class".
The "tittle-tattle" is nicely orchestrated by Mr. T himself.
If he is serious about combating the drug trade, then why is he cutting the aid to those countries??? People there mostly have no other economical choice but to be in the trade, simply for their survival.
I made my point very clear where I stand in regards to the Iraq/Afghanistan wars and all the other nonsense the US has been doing in the ME (i.e. Iran) in the original Mr. T thread. All of it has been illegal and purely based on the US's drive for supremacy as well as to control and police the world. You can read in the US archives how the presidents/congress at the time made their plans.
Oh, he's itching to have his own war, rest assured. It would be the best, most beautiful and tremendous war ever.
Venezuela has the best odds at the moment. You do not pump another 50 billion USD into the military for nothing. Nor do you ask the generals - "why have you not used nukes in that case?" - just for fun.
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If I turncoat on Trump, this thread could likely die, as all the trump supporters have been worn down so I will have to carry on at least for a while longer, maybe till the next election 
I was only a lurker when the first trump thread was alive and I don't think I ventured past the slot discussions, so I missed all of that juicy debating
I was only a lurker when the first trump thread was alive and I don't think I ventured past the slot discussions, so I missed all of that juicy debating
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You see, all social security systems and government stuff was/is based on a pyramid structure as well as a growing population and that on average a family woud have 2 kids. The rate was way above 2 then but now in most developed nations it is rather close to 1.
Hence, the systems as we know them and have benefited from for decades will undoubtedly collapse at some point if you do not have an influx (regulated if possible) of immigrants to fill the gap. While they will become recipents as well you will have also new immigrants coming in.
Unless of course, you just eliminate the systems and everyone is on their own. I don't think that would have a good end. People tend to revert to their natural instinct of the "stronger survives best" when it comes to such situations.
The flak he is getting is mostly self-induced or self-inflicted. I have no sympathy there for him.
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I think he's past redemption for you Harry, you must hate his guts
but why did blair or bush never receive half the flak considering they have actual blood on their hands. It's inconsistency and double standards as I see it, in a fair world yes Trump would get criticised for stuff but in proportion to the misdemeanours, at the moment it is disproportionate. I have yet to see any criticism in the mainstream media of Trumps actions and policy towards Venezuela, I think they would be in favour of military action to overthrow maduro and his socialist govt.
A glaring problem of mainstream media is the lack of a variety of opinion, when you meet people in life, opinions and ideas vary but on the media the journalists and paid pundits all share the same viewpoint. 1 channel Fox is pro trump but that's it, pretty shocking that the whole press holds opposite views from a large number of the public.
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I think he's past redemption for you Harry, you must hate his guts
I have yet to see any criticism in the mainstream media of Trumps actions and policy towards Venezuela, I think they would be in favour of military action to overthrow maduro and his socialist govt.
A glaring problem of mainstream media is the lack of a variety of opinion, when you meet people in life, opinions and ideas vary but on the media the journalists and paid pundits all share the same viewpoint. 1 channel Fox is pro trump but that's it, pretty shocking that the whole press holds opposite views from a large number of the public.
Nah mate, I don't hate anyone in the world, never will.
I just see him for what he is - a bragging conman, the only thing he's really good at (including in all traits a good conman needs)
Go back and listen to Faux News and other right-leaning channels during Obama's tenure. You would post now exactly the same, just from the opposite political corner.
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Still not understanding how I am attacking either one of you by saying you would defend trump even if he shot someone on 5th ave. How is that an attack on you or slotplayer?
Slotplayer is a trumpster. There is nothing we can say on here about him that slotplayer does not have whataboutism or a video to demonstrate his defence of trump. So I really don’t get how I wanted to attack you and made it palpable by including slotplayer.
It just means there is not bottom for either one of you. He can do no wrong. As for it being surreal...honestly...I think you’re too sensitive....
Report the post if you feel I have attacked you. Or maybe I’ll report the post myself and let the mods decide if I attacked you.
As for the rest of your post...not gonna answer...I’ll say this about your explanation of whatboutism...you might wanna ask about how the republicans treated Obama ....he wore a tan suit and they called him unpresidential...can you imagine? where are those guys now...when the president of the USA has had countless affairs lies daily and unabashedly....and a tan suit is unpresidential....so you have to be careful about that whataboutism and fairness....
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Bush, Cheney, and company should be considered war criminals and thrown in jail for what they did in Iraq. It is not anything less.
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"As far as I can tell the media would rather concentrate on personal tittle tattle" --> still pales in comparison with Obama who was hung in effigy all over the country, nothing short of a KKK mob mentality. 
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If I turncoat on Trump, this thread could likely die, as all the trump supporters have been worn down so I will have to carry on at least for a while longer, maybe till the next election
I was only a lurker when the first trump thread was alive and I don't think I ventured past the slot discussions, so I missed all of that juicy debating
You might turn quicker than you thought. The US just handed your government an 18-page document on what they want to see in a trade agreement.
Good luck Chuck! ....would be an appropriate line now.
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well it's hardly a compliment to our sanity or decency rather the opposite, more akin to being a pair of deplorables, but never mind it caused no harm and gave me a few chuckles this side of the atlantic...I haven't needed to report any posts in the time I've been a member, and even if you had left out slotplayer and written about me 'you would defend trump even if he killed someone on 5th venue' , it still wouldn't in my eyes warrant reporting as it's too far fetched, more comical than anything 
no it's not sensitivity, words have meaning and intent, that's all, and this strong dislike of Trump that some people have seems to make them less polite than they normally would be.
Slotplayer was a democrat I believe when the democrats were a bit more normal and interested in the concerns of the majority but now they're a party stitched together of minority groups, and run at the top by neo con globalists like hillary. After my attempts at written discourse I can quite understand why slotplayer relies on using videos to help fight his corner, I might start doing it myself, plenty of tucker vids I can post
I didn't really follow the obama presidency much after the initial period, but if such a comment was made about a tan suit I'm sure there would have been suitable whataboutisms that could have been used in defence regarding presidential norms, or just label it as a lame attack by pea brains.
It seems though the endless attacks on Trump have the effect of galvanising his base rather breaking it up, so it's counter productive.
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no it's not sensitivity, words have meaning and intent, that's all, and this strong dislike of Trump that some people have seems to make them less polite than they normally would be.
Slotplayer was a democrat I believe when the democrats were a bit more normal and interested in the concerns of the majority but now they're a party stitched together of minority groups, and run at the top by neo con globalists like hillary. After my attempts at written discourse I can quite understand why slotplayer relies on using videos to help fight his corner, I might start doing it myself, plenty of tucker vids I can post
I didn't really follow the obama presidency much after the initial period, but if such a comment was made about a tan suit I'm sure there would have been suitable whataboutisms that could have been used in defence regarding presidential norms, or just label it as a lame attack by pea brains.
It seems though the endless attacks on Trump have the effect of galvanising his base rather breaking it up, so it's counter productive.
That's correct total liberal back then, then the day of clarity came.
Notice the date:
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Speaking of videos. Its a bit long. He's kinda doing some of the things he said.
June 16, 2015
June 16, 2015
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"As far as I can tell the media would rather concentrate on personal tittle tattle" --> still pales in comparison with Obama who was hung in effigy all over the country, nothing short of a KKK mob mentality.
See that's a whataboutism, you mustn't use those
Two wrongs though don't make a right and I doubt Obama was kept awake worrying about some hillbilly rednecks who didn't like him being president, he had more pressing things to worry about as supposedly a man of peace and a recipient of a nobel peace prize no less:"On January 23, 2009, just three days into his presidency, President Obama authorized his first kinetic military action: two drone strikes, three hours apart, in Waziristan, Pakistan, that killed
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."various numbers exist for the number of civilians killed during obama's two terms, some have said upwards of 380, that will be children etc included, so my opinion of Obama is pretty low, he certainly was not the change in policy he promised to be.
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You might turn quicker than you thought. The US just handed your government an 18-page document on what they want to see in a trade agreement.
Good luck Chuck! ....would be an appropriate line now.
View attachment 105422
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yes if Trump is pushing this kind of trade deal [and its not the trade dept instead pushing it] then he can bugger off, we could do with importing organic produce from the US, avocados, walnuts, wine,...but none of this cheap bleach chicken or GMO crap.
When the brexit vote was happening obama came over and tried to influence us to vote to remain, saying we'd be at the back of the queue for any new trade deal if we left.
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Bloody hell slotplayer you've been a member here for years, 2006! and Mouche since 2007.
I need to get back in my shell, done too much talkin tonight
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Because Obama was in the middle of negotiations with TPP, TTIP, and renegotiating NAFTA. Much bigger trade deals than just with the UK. No wonder he would put the UK at the back of the queue. Again, please inform yourself first.
You'll be surprised what else Mr. T will try to stick down your throat!
There are going to be some very bitter pills for your politicians and ultimately the UK to swallow."...we could do with importing organic produce from the US, avocados, walnuts, wine,...but none of this cheap bleach chicken or GMO crap." ......Do you really think just for a second that Mr. T will let you pick and choose what you want?
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See that's a whataboutism, you mustn't use those
"On January 23, 2009, just three days into his presidency, President Obama authorized his first kinetic military action: two drone strikes, three hours apart, in Waziristan, Pakistan, that killedYou do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.."
various numbers exist for the number of civilians killed during obama's two terms, some have said upwards of 380, that will be children etc included, so my opinion of Obama is pretty low, he certainly was not the change in policy he promised to be.
.....The Pentagon told Congress on Friday that nearly 500 civilians were killed in U.S. military operations during the first year of Trump's presidency.
Or this here from the WP.
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yes but obama is held up as a shining beacon of hope, a great man of peace, when the facts prove otherwise.
"America dropped 26,171 bombs in 2016. What a bloody end to Obama's reign"
...in 2016 alone, the Obama administration dropped at least 26,171 bombs. This means that every day last year, the US military blasted combatants or civilians overseas with 72 bombs; that’s three bombs every hour, 24 hours a day.
While most of these air attacks were in Syria and Iraq, US bombs also rained down on people in Afghanistan, Libya, Yemen, Somalia and Pakistan. That’s seven majority-Muslim countries.
One bombing technique that President Obama championed is drone strikes. As drone-warrior-in-chief, he spread the use of drones outside the declared battlefields of Afghanistan and Iraq, mainly to Pakistan and Yemen. Obama authorized over 10 times more drone strikes than George W Bush, and automatically painted all males of military age in these regions as
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, making them fair game for remote controlled killing.....We have no idea how many civilians have been killed in the massive bombings in Iraq and Syria, where the US military is often pursuing Isis in the middle of urban neighborhoods. We only sporadically hear about civilian killings in Afghanistan, such as the tragic bombing of the Doctors Without Borders hospital in Kunduz that left 42 dead and 37 wounded.
Pushed to release information about civilian deaths in drone strikes, in July 2016 the US government made the absurd claim it had killed, at most, 116 civilians in Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia and Libya between 2009 and 2015. Journalists and human rights advocates said the numbers were ridiculously low and unverifiable, given that no names, dates, locations or others details were released. The London-based Bureau of Investigative Journalism, which has tracked drone strikes for years,
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was six times higher.Given that drones account for only a small portion of the munitions dropped in the past eight years, the numbers of civilians killed by Obama’s bombs could be in the thousands. But we can’t know for sure as the administration, and the mainstream media, has been virtually silent about the civilian toll of the administration’s failed interventions.
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You sound like a republican here.
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