Secret Societies, The New World Order, and you.

OK i'm of few words but here is my take on this

1- we all have had privy to its coming

2 - where in the scriptures

3- real believers can indore thru it ,but the rest will Nash there teeth as is written

i am by no means a model of religious following i will ask for redempton for i am human

my deepest thoughts are stop struggling with it we weren't supposed to know or it would be innate to us

peace to the world- RC
 
OK i'm of few words but here is my take on this

1- we all have had privy to its coming

2 - where in the scriptures

3- real believers can indore thru it ,but the rest will Nash there teeth as is written

i am by no means a model of religious following i will ask for redempton for i am human

my deepest thoughts are stop struggling with it we weren't supposed to know or it would be innate to us

peace to the world- RC

Who's struggling? For me its just intellectual stimulation.

But if you find a passage that deals with the minimum temperature for certain metal alloys to melt, please let us know!
 
Who's struggling? For me its just intellectual stimulation.

But if you find a passage that deals with the minimum temperature for certain metal alloys to melt, please let us know!

weill this is a quote , and by no means was my statement meant to or for you but it was meant for all those people that might find value in it
peace be with you [and nobody is getting off the planet to live [alive ] in there present form again i say peace your friend don
 
Seventh, may your father have peace and comfort during this difficult time.


I'm convinced you're either Ron Paul or former member RobWin :p As you may know there have been threads here before regarding 9/11 CT's. Not to waste your time but.....NatGeo Channel among others have conducted exhaustive research on 9/11 CT's and havn't find an ounce of truth to any of it (although the molten metal/Newton's 3rd Law arguments are compelling).

For those of us that are trying to follow your logic and want to check your sources, could you give credit to the original author when you post? Or did I miss it? Most of your first post was posted on Ron Paul's site years ago.

Thanks,
Bryan

Lol i`m neither, most of the quotes in my 1st post have the authors with them, the rest is mine, like I stated previously i`m trying to keep 9/11 out of this thread, I have another thread (The Symbolism thread with loads of 9/11 related stuff in it) as far as debunking 9/11 CT`s goes i`ve seen various state owned channels pump out a half hearted attempt with none of the various branches of the truth movement there - Architects/engineers for truth, Pilots for truth, 1st responders for truth, Veterans for truth (ex/still serving high ranking servicemen including espionage and counter terrorist personnel) Barristers/lawyers for truth, the list is endless, now, if, the TPTB want to lay this ghost to rest then why not invite members from all these movements to put forward their evidence and findings.

A few years ago Mythbusters "debunked" the use of thermite on vertical steels stating it could not be securely held in place long enough to melt through girders, so an independent guy created a simple device proving Mythbusters wrong,




So here we have state run channels broadcasting predetermined outcomes.
 
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Roy I'm seriously impressed, I have researched all of what you have posted in your initial post for ages, it sickens me also, and how the most richest people in the world attend a meeting in secret, (bielderburg group) now this in itself raises ALOT of questions, what topics be discussed in meetings such as this one, where they meet every year in different destinations?:confused:

Here is a video of an interview about Bohemian grove


Alot of the rich and powerful attend this place to take part in a ritual, where they worship an owl (Molech) and do a mock sacrifice to burn away their care of 'The People' *note: alot of presidents have taken part in this ritual.

Have you researched about the council of 300 yet?
 
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Roy I'm seriously impressed, I have researched all of what you have posted in your initial post for ages, it sickens me also, and how the most richest people in the world attend a meeting in secret, (bielderburg group) now this in itself raises ALOT of questions, what topics be discussed in meetings such as this one, where they meet every year in different destinations?:confused:

Here is a video of an interview about Bohemian grove


Alot of the rich and powerful attend this place to take part in a ritual, where they worship an owl (Molech) and do a mock sacrifice to burn away their care of 'The People' *note: alot of presidents have taken part in this ritual.

Have you researched about the council of 300 yet?


Hey hun, long time no see:(, no I haven`t researched the council of 300 yet hun, I also haven`t mentioned the feeder secret society for the Illuminati - Skull and Bones.

I would love to see the day they "Debunk 9/11 CT`s" on yet another channel owned by Rupert Murdoch :rolleyes:, and invite along the likes of these guys.....

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About time the world took a deep long look at the evidence available regarding 9/11 and the sheer physics of it all, proving beyond doubt it was an inside job, and removed from power those involved, what people have to get their heads around 1st for this to happen is - The leaders of the countries involved in the New World Order do not give a flying fuck about their nations people, all you are to them are Useless Eaters that pay the taxes that finance their long time plan.

Establish this (especially amongst the military) and we`re good to go, one day, just one day, a high ranking officer will sit down and research WWI-WWII and think "Hold on a minute", The Treaty of Versailles is almost a Hollywood script for the onset of WWII, a handful of men can be attributed down to the loss of 78 million deaths, a seemingly mental tyrannical despot stretching his forces around the world as far as possible, poor military decisions resulting in heavy losses, battles won by the sheer underdog beating gigantic odds against them, the involvement of Japan and the end result, turning a blind eye to any other race than the Germans regarding war crimes, Churchill and Stalin`s erratic behaviour after WWII (Incinerating places that would have held many clues regarding the Holocaust in general), the pre-arranged trading for Japan involving many countries, enforced by ordering the survivors of the Japanese PoW`s having to sign the official secrets act regarding the treatment of them by the Japanese guards, no man tells it better
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So, for those who find it impossible that a handful of men/woman could have that much control, and in doing so, create world wars that do both - Depopulate, generate vast wealth, think again - 78 million deaths - a handful of men - 78 million deaths.

How much evidence do you need/want?.
 
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Hey hun, long time no see:(, no I haven`t researched the council of 300 yet hun, I also haven`t mentioned the feeder secret society for the Illuminati - Skull and Bones.

I would love to see the day they "Debunk 9/11 CT`s" on yet another channel owned by Rupert Murdoch :rolleyes:, and invite along the likes of these guys.....

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


About time the world took a deep long look at the evidence available regarding 9/11 and the sheer physics of it all, proving beyond doubt it was an inside job, and removed from power those involved, what people have to get their heads around 1st for this to happen is - The leaders of the countries involved in the New World Order do not give a flying fuck about their nations people, all you are to them are Useless Eaters that pay the taxes that finance their long time plan.

Establish this (especially amongst the military) and we`re good to go, one day, just one day, a high ranking officer will sit down and research WWI-WWII and think "Hold on a minute", The Treaty of Versailles is almost a Hollywood script for the onset of WWII, a handful of men can be attributed down to the loss of 78 million deaths, a seemingly mental tyrannical despot stretching his forces around the world as far as possible, poor military decisions resulting in heavy losses, battles won by the sheer underdog beating gigantic odds against them, the involvement of Japan and the end result, turning a blind eye to any other race than the Germans regarding war crimes, Churchill and Stalin`s erratic behaviour after WWII (Incinerating places that would have held many clues regarding the Holocaust in general), the pre-arranged trading for Japan involving many countries, enforced by ordering the survivors of the Japanese PoW`s having to sign the official secrets act regarding the treatment of them by the Japanese guards, no man tells it better
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So, for those who find it impossible that a handful of men/woman could have that much control, and in doing so, create world wars that do both - Depopulate, generate vast wealth, think again - 78 million deaths - a handful of men - 78 million deaths.

How much evidence do you need/want?.

The problem is this, people are so transfixed on what they see on telly (conditionally programmed to dismiss all of this) they would rather watch a nonsense fictional soap every bloody day and talk about that, than to talk about REAL issues, including issues that have brought the recession into place, attacking world trade, by creating 9/11.

Dr Eric pianka was gave a standing ovation at a seminar when he said that half the population should be wiped out (not necessarily in them exact words).

Big Pharma don't want people to be healthy, they NEED a revenue for their drug manufacturing, don't even get me started on vaccines,

I'll give you the name of a video to watch, a lot of videos actually, Type Robert Menard freeman on the land into Youtube and watch his vids, it will open your eyes, this man had his kid TOOK off him, he studied the law to get custody of her and won, but only after 5 years.
THEY told him that she would go through foster home to foster home before he got her back, the bastards! He had done nothing wrong to her.
 
The problem is this, people are so transfixed on what they see on telly (conditionally programmed to dismiss all of this) they would rather watch a nonsense fictional soap every bloody day and talk about that, than to talk about REAL issues, including issues that have brought the recession into place, attacking world trade, by creating 9/11.

Dr Eric pianka was gave a standing ovation at a seminar when he said that half the population should be wiped out (not necessarily in them exact words).

Big Pharma don't want people to be healthy, they NEED a revenue for their drug manufacturing, don't even get me started on vaccines,

I'll give you the name of a video to watch, a lot of videos actually, Type Robert Menard freeman on the land into Youtube and watch his vids, it will open your eyes, this man had his kid TOOK off him, he studied the law to get custody of her and won, but only after 5 years.
THEY told him that she would go through foster home to foster home before he got her back, the bastards! He had done nothing wrong to her.

They have done their utmost to keep world morale at low levels, one aspect they never catered for in early days planning was the internet, getting control of the media in general, including the film industry, would have meant a nigh on 100% control over what is watched or read in the papers. We all know how factually wrong Hollywood is when pumping out a new film. Film`s/Books based on true events in History are the only way possible to know of the past, and in watching them we are led to believe the content in them, this in turn leads to the opinions/views/overall perception of the relative historical event depicted in the film, of those that watch them, when these events are of significant historical importance, people`s assessments based on their beliefs have been judged courtesy of a misinformation riddled film, and therefore way off the mark, let`s take Braveheart for eg.



The opening scenery is from the West Highlands, an area not at the centre of, or even particularly involved in, Wallace's risings against Edward. (The rest of Scotland does not look anything like the West Highlands, nor did it circa 1300. The appearance of West Highlands are as distinctive compared to the rest of Scotland as the appearance of the Grand Canyon is compared to the rest of America, so this is like using aerial shots of the Grand Canyon in Arizona as the "scene setting" opening shots of a movie about the American War of Independence.)

As the content of the film will eventually make clear, the narrator/film doesn't actually tell us of William Wallace. Instead, it tells of us some fantasy character in a fantasy world who coincidentally share's Wallace's name.

It is the historians from Scotland, far more than from England, who will recognize the errors of the narrator/film.

History is written by the literate, be they victors or vanquished, whether they have hanged heroes or followed them. In the case of Scotland, plenty of it has been written by Scots, including medieval Scots who opposed English overlord-ship and modern Scots opposed to union with England.

In 1280, the King of Scotland (Alexander III) was not only not dead, but both of his two sons were also alive and well. The younger son, David, didn't die until 1281, the eldest son, Alexander, didn't die until 1284, and King Alexander himself didn't die until two years after that. (Alexander also had at least one living daughter in 1280, Margaret, who didn't die until 1283.)

Even when Kind Alexander III did die in 1286, with no surviving sons, he left a granddaughter, Margaret, who was acknowledged as his heir by the Scottish nobles and even the King of England, who negotiated with Scotland to marry her to his son and heir. Rather than fighting each other over the crown, the Scots appointed guardians who ruled the realm in her name for four years, until she died in 1290 while on her way to Scotland.

But even at this point, the nobles did not fall into civil war, and Edward I of England did not claim the throne of Scotland for himself. Instead, they held a court case to determine who was the rightful heir. While Edward did claim overlord-ship of Scotland, did preside over the court case, and undoubtedly influenced the conclusion, the end result was to pick (in 1292) John Balliol as King of Scotland by what we and contemporary and subsequent medieval Scots would consider quite normal rules of primogeniture of males of like degree. (In other words, they picked the right guy according to the rules.)

King John ruled until 1296, when he was forced to abdicate (after going to war with England due to opposition to such things as Edward's "cruel" insistence on hearing appeals of Scottish court cases in England and due to the Scottish nobles not wanting to be made to fight for England in foreign wars). Then, and only then, did Edward I claim to rule Scotland directly himself instead of installing a new Scottish king.

So, in fact, there had been no actual armed conflict between Scotland and England in this period until King John Balliol's short lived "rebellion" in 1296 and it was not until this year that Edward, after a fashion, claimed the Scottish crown for himself. Note that is 16 years later than the film's false "1280", and, significantly, just the year before the real Wallace's uprising in 1297. [Keep this in mind for all later scenes showing or referring to the supposed long-endured "oppression" of Scotland by England -- that's a good chunk of the movie false in all aspects right there.]

Edward I was a Christian. He was in no sense a "pagan" -- there had not been any true pagans in Britain since the end of the Viking era centuries earlier. (He wasn't even a "Paganus" in the much earlier Classical Latin sense of "peasant" or "yokel".)

In the 13th century (and the 14th, 15th, and most of the 16th), no Scots, whether Gaels or not, wore belted plaids (let alone kilts of any kind). Further, when the Scottish Gaels did start wearing their belts outside their plaids (mantles), they did not wear them in the rather bizarre style depicted in the film. In other words, not only did the film get the clothing wrong, but they got the wrong clothing itself wrong! (This is like a film about Colonial America showing the colonial men wearing 20th century business suits, but with the jackets worn back-to-front instead of the right way around.)

Many, perhaps even most, of the nobles of Scotland, especially those involved in the wars with England, were not Gaels, but rather were culturally similar to English nobles. These Scottish nobles, and also many lesser land holders, would have dressed more or less like their English counterparts, many of whom were their relatives, and spoken a Scottish dialect of English and/or Anglo-Norman French, again like the English nobles. Such were the families of Wallace, Bruce, Balliol, Murray, Stewart, Douglas, Comyn, and many others.

To the best of my knowledge, at no time did Edward invite the nobles of Scotland "to talks of truce -- no weapons, one page only." Certainly not in 1280, when Alexander III had his nobles well in hand, nor in 1286, nor 1290, nor 1292, nor 1296. Especially he would not have called them to such talks in Glen Nevis or anywhere that looked remotely like Glen Nevis, far from Edward's strongholds and power. (Again, this is like depicting discussions between the Colonial Americans and British as taking place in the Grand Canyon.)

Although the name of William Wallace's father was not really known (at the time the movie was made), what was known was that he was no mere "farmer". He was a knight who held lands.

William Wallace also had at least two brothers, Malcolm and John. Malcolm was the eldest and although it is not clear when their father died, by 1296 Malcolm was a knight himself holding lands in Elderslie. So that's a minimum of three sons, not two, at least in 1296. How many sons Wallace's father had in 1280 is anybody's guess! [Note for future reference that at least one of William's brothers, Sir John Wallace, outlived him, and his brother Sir Malcolm may have as well.]

The valley where Wallace's home is shown to be is also in the West Highlands, not the area (Elderslie and the parish of Paisley) nor even at all like the area from which Wallace actually hailed (or at least where his brother held lands and he very likely hailed). It was filmed in Glen Nevis, near Fort William. Glen Nevis is a valley with a base altitude of less than 600 feet above sea level that runs between very steep mountains that range between 3600 to 4400 feet tall; Elderslie, near Glasgow, is in very gently rolling country side where the tallest hill is only some 749 feet high (and takes its time rising to that height). (Again, this is like depicting George Washington's childhood home as having been in the Grand Canyon.)

The sons of knights did not dress in rags. Further, even poor Scots would have known how to sew (or at least had a family member who knew how to sew) -- poor people, even less than rich, could not afford to let their clothing unravel and disintegrate because they left edges un-hemmed.

There is no reason at all to think that late 13th century Scottish men had "mullet" haircuts from the 1980's. There is no reason at all to think they braided their hair. There is no reason at all to think they tied bits of fur or feathers in their hair. Further, there is no reason at all to think they hadn't ever encountered a comb... [In general, the hairstyles shown for the Scots throughout the film seem to be distinctly late 20th century fantasy in inspiration, influenced by the film "Last of the Mohican`s" and the television series "Xena: Warrior Princess" more than by history.]


A film depicting the English as ass-holes, fuelled by outrageously incorrect historical facts and film scenes in general, i`m not stating the English are/were not ass-holes in times gone by, far from it, especially to the Scots and Irish, but, think of people`s attitudes towards the English after watching this film?.

A great example of cloudy judgement regarding wrongly based views towards a whole race of people, for the sole reason they are the same nationality of those whom killed your family members whilst at war with them............................................

So, here I am around 10 years old, a new boy is introduced to the class as Karl Steadman and of German descent, I growled a little inside as I thought "What the hell are they doing letting German`s into our school?, they will kill us all for sure", this was obviously based on my only knowledge of German`s and that was watching old movies, the enemy, nasty, and horrible. After a while I started noticing that German boy, had identical traits to us, a few months later I started to speak to him, 6 months later he was my past friend, "Wow, the Germans are just like us",. Karl remained a very close friend until I moved away from the area.
 
I could n't agree more with you Roy.

Just found this vid


I will check this video out later hun, I have done some work on my next post here, but, at the same time i`m getting drawn into the Alien thread and crop circles in particular, just like any aspect that involves government shills/misinformationists, when you get to the bottom of it, they haven`t debunked anything at all. For something to be debunked correctly Ie. to put forward a thesis that holds water, a 100% complete comprehension of the event in question is an absolute must, you cannot counter-argue any aspect without a relative amount of data as to why it didn`t/couldn`t happen that way, and the scientific/mathematical/calculus/formulae disproving their theory whilst enforcing yours.

No-one knows how these crop circles are made, nor what causes the after affects to the crops in general and the immediate areas that contain the images, common sense prevails, it`s impossible to debunk anything without a complete understanding of the topic in question.

The process of elimination can and will find an answer when direct evidence is absent......

1). These crop circles have been created by intelligent life forms.

2). Intelligent life forms on this planet including experts in their respective fields cannot put forward any comprehensive detailed analysis, of how these are made nor the devices/instruments used to make them.

3). Surveyors are on record as stating that the more complex of these images would take them days just to map out, let alone create them.

4). These images appear over night with as little time as 4 hours during and around the summer solstice time.

5). Scientists cannot explain, surveyors need a lot more time than the average time these images take to be created.

6). There are cases of hoaxing, these however, will not have the same after affects that origin unknown circles have - EMP type energy fields that play havoc with mobile phones etc, genetically modified seeds (peer reviewed analysis), and various other anomalies.

7). When some of the most intelligent people on this planet cannot explain a phenomena created by intelligent life forms, then it transpires that they are not the most intelligent people on this planet, but, the ones whom created the tools necessary for the job are, when person/persons unknown are capable of creating instruments that cannot be replicated nor even explained as to how they work exactly, and the complexity and actual message that a lot of these circles portray, it points to a deciding factor -

It`s a well known fact that the technology available to government personnel is both highly classified and restricted, this technology is assessed to be 50-75 years in front of anything on today`s open market, enforcing this comes hand in hand with having the best of the best scientists and the like out there, also, giving government scientists/physicists a huge advantage over Joe Public in regards as to what they have to work with, how did these crop circle creators that have both outsmarted and befuddled these so called best of the best, go unnoticed and slipped through the net?.

I doubt anyone with the brains needed to create these wondrous devices and the many powers they possess, would waste such a talent on solely creating images in farmers fields etcetera, at great personal expense and time consuming ways, do you?:).

8). (TBA).


Ooops there I go again lol.

Just had to post pictures of these two images, the none Alien one is breathtakingly 3D..........




cropcircleoimrgierjgijiw4gj04g_thumb.jpg




ET_crop.jpg
 
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Okay, back to topic - One of the main reasons people in general do not believe in the Illuminati is...."But how would they infiltrate the governments and take control?", easily answered.........................

The Illuminati was started in the 1700's as truth seekers. The Catholic Chruch pretty much controlled the accepted belief such as the planets and entire universe revolving around the sun. The Illuminati used their technology to prove the church wrong but were eventually hunted down and went into hiding. Hundreds of years later people got bored of religion and politics were the next big way to control things. When Woodrow Wilson came into office he pretty much sold the United States to the banking system (which was owned by Illuminati family members) by signing the Federal Reserve Act. Their money system held the government in debt from that day forth. Using secret organizations such as the Skull & Bones or the Bohemian Grove the Illuminati corrupted world leaders to do their bidding.

The Illuminati owns all the banking systems, 90% of the media, and has the world leaders under their thumb. Owning the media they get the final say on the "official" story and what gets told in the newspapers and TV. The news broadcasters report to us what they're told; which is not always the truth.

Which brings me to "Just how much control does the media have over us?", I will try and break this down as best I can in an easy to understand format.

For those of us whom have never been to the middle East, our perception is based purely on what we have seen on the news, read in papers, watched documentaries on government/elitist owned channels.

When you hear Afghanistan/Iraqi/Libya/Syria mentioned on the news, do you automatically picture these countries/men like this, armed "Insurgents" against a backdrop of a bleak barren landscape, and living in run down ghetto like houses?.............




Scenery.jpg





Taliban armed with rocket-propelled grenade launchers patrol outside Swat valley near Buner dist.jpg





taliban-fighters-001.jpg





town.jpg




Here`s what a high percentage of the actual populations look like, and some beautiful scenic landscapes that the MSM constantly fail to show in their broadcasts that mention the words "Terrorists" "Insurgents", more times than is healthy, feel free to google such aspects as breathtaking <insert random Muslim country here> scenery.

I have deliberately chosen pictures that clearly indicate these people don`t hate our Western ways, decadence, freedoms as much as we are force fed to believe, in this picture can be seen - A young girl drinking Pepsi, Orphaned girls studying English, Young men at University, an Afghanistan film producer and his son, an advert for a Muslim dating Agency, Muslim woman enjoying a night at the movies, some random scenic views, and a nice house with freshly mown lawn (just like ours)




images.jpg



For the Illuminati to reach it`s goals and have control over the whole world, certain countries with staunch religious beliefs and no central banking systems will have to be forcibly induced with "Democracy" to come around to our way of thinking (theirs, not mine), early manipulation of these countries was far easier, introduce them to capitalism and buy their friendship by supplying arms and donating vast sums of money for their more needy people, build an Embassy, and boom, you`re in.

For those countries not willing to play, create a false flag event involving people from the targeted next country and declare war against them, show carefully manipulated video clips via the MSM channels you own, depicting the hardships of these people that you are fighting for to defend (be careful here and don`t let the films made by your soldiers committing paedophile rape go viral, the people funding these wars don`t like stuff like this, and ffs stop taking pictures of those malformed due to depleted uranium radiation sickness babies, we`re breaking every single protocol of the Geneva Convention by using this ammo).

The last war inducing false flag events (9/11 7/7) were very complex, but, the evidence is all there. Recent countries acquired without the need of false flag events Syria, Libya, using techniques that worked excellently for the last two (instigating political unrest), and based on certain aspects as explained by this guy.......

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Rather than go through all the 9/11 stuff, I have a far easier clear cut case of media manipulation/False Flag event, remember the Gulf War - Desert Storm?.

War was declared on Iraq for these false pretences, the main reason was Iraqi soldiers had stormed a maternity hospital and taken babies out of incubators, leaving them on the floor to die (see video at bottom).



..:: Pentagon lied that Iraqi forces stood at Saudi border

Before launching the Gulf War, Bush Sr. claimed that an Iraqi juggernaut was threatening to roll into Saudi Arabia. Citing top-secret satellite images, Pentagon officials estimated in mid–September that up to 250,000 Iraqi troops and 1,500 tanks stood on the border, threatening the key US oil supplier.

The St. Petersburg Times acquired two commercial Soviet satellite images of the same area, taken at the same time, and found no Iraqi troops were visible near the Saudi border — just empty desert.

After the war, Gen. Colin Powell admitted that there had been no massive build up. A US senior commander told Newsday after the war, "There was a great disinformation campaign surrounding this war."

..:: False testimony about Iraqi atrocities

Before the motion for war, members of Congress were presented with the tearful testimony of a 15-year-old Kuwaiti girl, known only as Nayirah. She described how, as a volunteer in a Kuwait maternity ward, she had seen Iraqi troops storm her hospital, steal the incubators, and leave 312 babies "on the cold floor to die." Seven US Senators later referred to the story during debate; the motion for war passed by just five votes. In the weeks after Nayirah spoke, President Bush senior invoked the incident five times, saying that such "ghastly atrocities" were like "Hitler revisited."

Nayirah was actually the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to Washington and had no connection to the Kuwait hospital. She had been coached — along with the handful of others who would "corroborate" the story — by senior executives of Hill and Knowlton in Washington, which had a contract worth more than $10 million with the Kuwaitis to make the case for war.

..:: Pentagon lied about strength of Iraqi troops

After the war, the House Armed Services Committee issued a report on lessons learned from the Persian Gulf War. It concluded that at the start of the ground war in February, the US faced only 183,000 Iraqi troops, less than half the Pentagon estimate.

..:: CIA forged documents were presented to the UN Security Council

In Saddam's Bombmaker, scientist Khidhir Hamza describes a bogus story planted by the CIA in the Sunday Times on 2 April 1995. The story reported that Hamza had confirmed a secret Iraqi weapon programme, and claimed that he had been kidnapped in Greece and probably assassinated. The CIA had planted the story and documents in order to smoke him out, and it worked. Hamza contacted the US Embassy in Budapest was brought to the US.

A week later, Madeline Albright quoted the CIA-forged documents at the UN Security Council in order to prevent any relaxation of the regime of sanctions on Iraq.






That video was the reason the UN declared war on Iraq, are your eyes beginning to open yet?.
 
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MY eyes are already open and have been for a while. Thanks Roy for all your posts on this, makes me feel better I am not the only one seeing things for how they really are. ;)

Yw hun:), thinking outside the box is what it`s all about. A prime example is the Turin Shroud and the various experts in the respective fields that have run tests on it, these include - Historians including cloth specialists, Forensics, Pathologists, Graphics Specialists that bit mapped it and turned a 2 dimensional image into 3D, Scientists covering all branches, Radiologists, and probably more i`ve forgot about lol, covering all aspects......


4 Scientific perspective

4.1 Early studies
4.2 Material chemical analysis
4.2.1 Radiocarbon dating
4.2.2 Tests for pigments
4.3 Material historical analysis
4.3.1 Historical fabrics
4.3.2 Dirt particles
4.4 Biological and medical forensics
4.4.1 Blood stains
4.4.2 Flowers and pollen
4.4.3 Anatomical forensics
4.5 Image and text analysis
4.5.1 Image analysis
4.5.2 Text of death certificate
4.6 Hypotheses on image origin
4.6.1 Painting and pigmentation
4.6.2 Medieval photography
4.6.3 Dust-transfer technique
4.6.4 Bas-relief
4.6.5 Maillard reaction
4.6.6 Energy source

All those that have rigorously tested the Shroud came to the same conclusion "Our tests are inconclusive of how exactly the image was produced, but, it`s suffice to say whatever caused the image was not man made",. Here`s where the average person will state "See I told you it wasn`t a fake", for us however, the story has just begun ;).

P.S. As you will know only to well hun, religion plays a huge part in all this especially the Pope and Christian based Icons.
 
Damn, I forgot these links in my earlier post regarding Syria/Libya and instigating political unrest...........


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Ofc, the government shills/misinformationists will tell us there were perfectly legitimate reasons for the most revered elite squadron in the world (SAS) to be roaming around Libya dressed as Arabs and carrying all that equipment.


A senior member of Benghazi's revolutionary council said: "They were carrying espionage equipment, reconnaissance equipment, multiple passports and weapons. This is no way to conduct yourself during an uprising.


And here we have an excellent example of the state run MSM doing their job perfectly, who else but my favourite news broadcasters whom never fail in telling today`s news as it was pre-planned a few years ago :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: the B.B.C..........


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The B.B.C`s spokesman`s explanation of this misdemeanour is complete and utter bollocks, there isn`t a News agency out there that broadcasts or shows pictures that are not 100% authenticated first, the source is verified by the news editor then passed on to the news anchors via auto-cues or sent to correspondents/journalists for release, it`s part and parcel of their legal bindings and protocols regarding Libel/Slander and the respective lawsuits these can and have brought, involving huge cash settlements.

But hey, what else do we expect from those that brought us this (ooops, we forgot to authenticate the source, the editor in charge that day will have a lot to answer for, his name will be on the film information sticker, stuck to the box containing the film)......................



Broadcasting the collapse of WTC7 26 minutes prematurely before it actually collapsed, someone wasn`t listening properly at the last briefing, regarding times for predetermined events to happen, the B.B.C. is the largest gatherer of world news in the world and thus have a huge archive, containing film reels, videos, DVD`s etc, in all this time they have lost only one piece of footage, guess which one?, honestly, you couldn`t make this up.



4. We no longer have the original tapes of our 9/11 coverage (for reasons of cock-up, not conspiracy). So if someone has got a recording of our output, I'd love to get hold of it. We do have the tapes for our sister channel News 24, but they don't help clear up the issue one way or another.



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PMFSL.
 
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I will check this video out later hun, I have done some work on my next post here, but, at the same time i`m getting drawn into the Alien thread and crop circles in particular, just like any aspect that involves government shills/misinformationists, when you get to the bottom of it, they haven`t debunked anything at all. For something to be debunked correctly Ie. to put forward a thesis that holds water, a 100% complete comprehension of the event in question is an absolute must, you cannot counter-argue any aspect without a relative amount of data as to why it didn`t/couldn`t happen that way, and the scientific/mathematical/calculus/formulae disproving their theory whilst enforcing yours.

No-one knows how these crop circles are made, nor what causes the after affects to the crops in general and the immediate areas that contain the images, common sense prevails, it`s impossible to debunk anything without a complete understanding of the topic in question.

The process of elimination can and will find an answer when direct evidence is absent......

1). These crop circles have been created by intelligent life forms.

2). Intelligent life forms on this planet including experts in their respective fields cannot put forward any comprehensive detailed analysis, of how these are made nor the devices/instruments used to make them.

3). Surveyors are on record as stating that the more complex of these images would take them days just to map out, let alone create them.

4). These images appear over night with as little time as 4 hours during and around the summer solstice time.

5). Scientists cannot explain, surveyors need a lot more time than the average time these images take to be created.

6). There are cases of hoaxing, these however, will not have the same after affects that origin unknown circles have - EMP type energy fields that play havoc with mobile phones etc, genetically modified seeds (peer reviewed analysis), and various other anomalies.

7). When some of the most intelligent people on this planet cannot explain a phenomena created by intelligent life forms, then it transpires that they are not the most intelligent people on this planet, but, the ones whom created the tools necessary for the job are, when person/persons unknown are capable of creating instruments that cannot be replicated nor even explained as to how they work exactly, and the complexity and actual message that a lot of these circles portray, it points to a deciding factor -

It`s a well known fact that the technology available to government personnel is both highly classified and restricted, this technology is assessed to be 50-75 years in front of anything on today`s open market, enforcing this comes hand in hand with having the best of the best scientists and the like out there, also, giving government scientists/physicists a huge advantage over Joe Public in regards as to what they have to work with, how did these crop circle creators that have both outsmarted and befuddled these so called best of the best, go unnoticed and slipped through the net?.

I doubt anyone with the brains needed to create these wondrous devices and the many powers they possess, would waste such a talent on solely creating images in farmers fields etcetera, at great personal expense and time consuming ways, do you?:).

8). (TBA).


Ooops there I go again lol.

Just had to post pictures of these two images, the none Alien one is breathtakingly 3D..........




View attachment 35054




View attachment 35055

I had watched the video with the Alien pictured crop circle recently.

I agree that there is no way that anyone would have made these crop circles, especially not farmers. The crop circles are FAR too symmetrical with a hell of a lot of detail in them.
 
Coming to grips with the truth about 9/11 or a number of other truths can be very hard for many people:

9/11: Explosive Evidence - Psychologists Speak Out

 
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Coming to grips with the truth about 9/11 or a number of other truths can be very hard for many people:

9/11: Explosive Evidence - Psychologists Speak Out



Amen to that brother, it has to be Psychological and people just cannot come to terms with the sheer complexity of it all, to find out you`ve been living a lie in a world fuelled by hate and the necessity to protect ourselves from the enemy at the door, then, to discover whom the real enemy is, leaves you with two options - Accept it, cannot accept it - never talk about it, just in case, upon discovering the real truth bursts the bubble and shatters the comfort of that perfect little world you live in, a world where imminent danger is prevented from entering, courtesy of those guarding the wall, we want them on the wall, we need them on the wall, because that`s what we`ve been told, by those, who built the wall.

Ask a group of people what their personal meaning of life is, their objectives, their ambitions, their goals, nearly all will reply "To be comfortable, a nice house, car, never have to worry about money again", now ask the same group the same question, but this time through the eyes of an animal, most will reply "Survival", remind them that we are animals also, our answers should have been the same.

The many aspects of a democracy that are government controlled and funded by them via the tax payer - Education, Justice and Judicial systems including Policing, Health and safety including Doctors/Nurses/Firemen, Councils in charge of Parks and Amenities, Organisations that cater for both the Old and young including orphans and homeless people, Social security, Various other long term projects that safeguard the planet and our children`s future, the Military and defence budget. Every single aspect I just mentioned in a real world should have equal funding, none should be overlooked in favour of another, they do not, America`s annual government spending - 51% is spent on the military, leaving the others terribly underfunded.

When I visited my Father in hospital last week, he told me that when he filled in the list for the next days meals and breakfast which had a choice of cereal, white/brown bread with jam or marmalade, he asked if he could have his bread toasted, the reply `I`m sorry, we cannot afford to toast the bread, government cutbacks", my Father worked upto his retirement age of 65 and paid taxes all his life, he also lost his Father to WWII, I think those two aspects alone entitled this man to have toasted bread, don`t you?.

A world where we struggle to exist, crippled by taxes that on average, devour around 60% of our income in their various forms and guises, taxes that are mostly spent on fighting wars that were created by those that tax us, and defences from enemies, that do not exist.

It`s hardly surprising that people cannot cope with the truth, it`s far easier for them, to trudge through life in their little bubbles, whilst being eternally grateful to the government for protecting them.


Footnote:- Americans have more chance of being struck by lightning than being killed by a terrorist.
 
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I had watched the video with the Alien pictured crop circle recently.

I agree that there is no way that anyone would have made these crop circles, especially not farmers. The crop circles are FAR too symmetrical with a hell of a lot of detail in them.

Hey hun :), without derailing to much, all I will add is, certain agencies are crying hoax, but, failing horribly to give any supporting evidence whatsoever as to why these are hoax, and more importantly what/who is creating them..............................

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Before I add more it dawned on me earlier, are there any politicians out there that are actually genuine and suspect a lot of leaders past and present ulterior motives?, and yes, I stumbled across one, who has voiced his concerns relating to certain events and for future targets of the New World Order......

“The drive of the Rockefellers and their allies is to create a one-world government combining supercapitalism and Communism under the same tent, all under their control…. Do I mean conspiracy? Yes I do. I am convinced there is such a plot, international in scope, generations old in planning, and incredibly evil in intent.”

Congressman Larry P. McDonald, 1976, killed in the Korean Airlines 747 that was shot down by the Soviet Union.

Source....

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Verifying without doubt that not only does the New World Order exist, but, to a certain extent it also has opposer's to it.


This man was privy to a whole heap of information that we would never have access to, which in due turn led him to his assessment that this had been going on for several years, it`s targets, he must have stumbled across some pretty damning evidence to give him a need to express his concerns, concerns unfortunately that cost him his life, unless of course anyone has a perfectly logic explanation as to why the Russians would see a commercial jet liner as threat, or at the very least had given it an escort until it is out of their air space.

After the attention that J.F.K. received it appears that TPTB let one of their counterparts take care of someone who could jeopardize their future plans.

Wonder why others do not speak out?.
 
Before I add more it dawned on me earlier, are there any politicians out there that are actually genuine and suspect a lot of leaders past and present ulterior motives?, and yes, I stumbled across one, who has voiced his concerns relating to certain events and for future targets of the New World Order......



Congressman Larry P. McDonald, 1976, killed in the Korean Airlines 747 that was shot down by the Soviet Union.

Source....

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Verifying without doubt that not only does the New World Order exist, but, to a certain extent it also has opposer's to it.


This man was privy to a whole heap of information that we would never have access to, which in due turn led him to his assessment that this had been going on for several years, it`s targets, he must have stumbled across some pretty damning evidence to give him a need to express his concerns, concerns unfortunately that cost him his life, unless of course anyone has a perfectly logic explanation as to why the Russians would see a commercial jet liner as threat, or at the very least had given it an escort until it is out of their air space.

After the attention that J.F.K. received it appears that TPTB let one of their counterparts take care of someone who could jeopardize their future plans.

Wonder why others do not speak out?.

"he must have"......how do you know?

IIRC, the shooting down was at a time of extreme tension between the superpowers, and the aircraft was way off course and well inside Russian airspace long periods. It was around the time of the SDI and Pershing II policies of the USA.

The wiki article is very detailed and explains it all logically. IMO it is ridiculous to even suggest their might have been a conspiracy involved. If "TPTB" wanted this congressman dead, they wouldn't have needed to kill hundreds along with him and possibly spark a third world war. Sorry Roy, but I'm not even slightly convinced on this one.

On the 9/11 conspiracy.......I would like some genuine honest guesstimates of how many people would be involved in any way with the deliberate collapse of all the WTC buildings and other related events in the Pentagon and Penn. i.e. they were personally doing something that was obviously part of a plan to make something happen e.g. anyone laying explosives at the base of the WTC buildings would HAVE to be asking themselves why.
 
QUOTE That`s all I have time for today. UNQUOTE

Phew, quite a lot of info... any positive counter forces worth mentioning here?

May I suggest NAM-MYO-HO-RENGE-KYO?
A jewel of ultimate wisdom representing expression of potentiality from unmanifest to manifest. The aim of the teaching is for people to chant and express their full human potential to enable them to be happy and fulfilled in a cooperative world.

Everything changes - nothing is permanent - transcending the sufferings of life and death we attain enlightenment to this truth. This teaching is based on enlightenment from the start. When you chant, enlightenment is expressed within the depths of your being, although you may not realise it.
 
"he must have"......how do you know?

IIRC, the shooting down was at a time of extreme tension between the superpowers, and the aircraft was way off course and well inside Russian airspace long periods. It was around the time of the SDI and Pershing II policies of the USA.

The wiki article is very detailed and explains it all logically. IMO it is ridiculous to even suggest their might have been a conspiracy involved. If "TPTB" wanted this congressman dead, they wouldn't have needed to kill hundreds along with him and possibly spark a third world war. Sorry Roy, but I'm not even slightly convinced on this one.

On the 9/11 conspiracy.......I would like some genuine honest guesstimates of how many people would be involved in any way with the deliberate collapse of all the WTC buildings and other related events in the Pentagon and Penn. i.e. they were personally doing something that was obviously part of a plan to make something happen e.g. anyone laying explosives at the base of the WTC buildings would HAVE to be asking themselves why.

Firstly, for Larry P. McDonald to have made his original statement.....
The drive of the Rockefellers and their allies is to create a one-world government combining supercapitalism and Communism under the same tent, all under their control…. Do I mean conspiracy? Yes I do. I am convinced there is such a plot, international in scope, generations old in planning, and incredibly evil in intent.”

He must have had some form of evidence as not only had he announced their intentions but named Rockefeller also, this isn`t the type of statement someone blurts out because they have a hunch.

Secondly, it is not hard to tamper with a planes navigation system for it to give incorrect readings of where it actually is, the tension that has been around since the cold war is a damn good excuse for all the super powers to have nuclear weapons, if Russia were that concerned about the Americans I doubt very much they would have sold them Alaska, okay, going back to the commercial airliner, it was Korean, it had veered off course and was duly blasted out of the sky, no questions asked, a few coincidences to many, if there was a genuine reason for the plane to have veered off course the pilots would have radioed through to the respective Russian air traffic controllers and explained their predicament,

There are certain protocols in place for when aircraft have encroached another countries airspace, there will always be communication via a radio asking why and warning them, they will then be met by interceptor jets and escorted back to the correct route they should have followed, if the 747 had bombing capabilities or was a jet fighter it would be explainable, there is no acceptable reason whatsoever for the Russians to have taken the action that they did, this mistake could happen at any given time to any pilots out there, what for arguments sake would pilots do if there was a huge thunderstorm over a stretch of their air route, and would place their passengers at huge risk in following this route?.

Also, the most restricted air space in the world is around Washington D.C. and in particular the Pentagon and White House, on 9/11/2001 a plane had been hijacked and flown off course for around an hour, the same day that had previously seen another two planes flown into buildings, you can`t tell me the alarm bells were not ringing here, why wasn`t this plane shot down?.

Thirdly, regarding the twin towers and WTC7, the wiring and placing of explosives could have been done over any given time thus needing very few people, a few weeks prior to 9/11 there was a complete shut- down
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during this power down sniffer dogs were removed and whole storeys were blocked off and rigorously guarded, no one was allowed to enter the floors where "Maintenance Work" was being carried out.

Of course there is/was security involved at the WTC, a little bit of research will bring you to who was on the board of the security firm at the WTC.......

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Bush`s younger brother Marvin.

There was testimonies from 503 first responders detailing over 20,000 pages depicting explosions (these are archived at the New York Daily Times) in explicit detail, this was completely overlooked at the 9/11 commission and no forensic tests were done on the steels regarding checking for explosives residue, the bulk of the steels were shipped to China for scrap as early as the next day.

There was however an independent test done on the steels by Physicist Steven Jones that produced this.........

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His analysis has been peer reviewed and of course his findings have been put through the normal reactions of shills/misinformationists including character assassination.

One aspect of explosives being used that can never be debunked is the heat produced that day that carried on for weeks after, this heat is reflected by thermal imaging photographs, this heat was far above that what it should have been, the main cause of fires was aviation fuel, this burns at nowhere near hot enough to weaken tempered construction steel let alone melt it, there were many accounts from several people testifying molten steel but these were rigorously denied by the government employed company put in place to explain why the towers collapsed, their findings to be used at the 9/11 commission report - NIST, let`s look at NIST`s explanation for the molten steel and resulting temperatures........



Once again, a very important factor regarding the collapse of the towers completely overlooked and denied, are we led to believe that the testimonies from 503 first responders and eye witness accounts are all fabricated and incorrect, why was this aspect never covered at the 9/11 commission?, a commission that by all intents and purposes was set up to find the truth, a commission that did not even know about the 3rd tower to collapse that day - WTC7 The Solomon Brothers tower, the self same tower that the B.B.C. reported had collapsed, 26 minutes prior to it actually collapsing.

Cheers,

Roy.
 
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Some interesting facts about flight KAL-007......

THE DEATH FLIGHT OF LARRY MCDONALD


Published in slightly abridged form in Flagpole Magazine, p. 7 (September 3, 2003).

Author: Donald E. Wilkes, Jr., Professor of Law, University of Georgia School of Law.

Twenty years ago, on Thursday, Sept. 1, 1983, Georgia Congressman Larry suffered a horrible death when the Boeing 747 airliner he was aboard was shot down by a Soviet fighter intercepter over the Sea of Japan. The 268 other persons on the plane also perished. The airliner, Korean Air Lines Flight 007, on its way to Seoul, South Korea, had twice entered Soviet airspace and was downed as it was about to leave Soviet airspace for the second time. Although many of the specific facts surrounding the shootdown of KAL 007 are unknown or disputed to this day, the violent death of the rabidly anti-Communist McDonald at the hands of the Soviet Union's Air Force appears to be a breathtaking example of the inscrutable workings of human fate and human destiny.

Lawrence Patton McDonald was born in Atlanta on Apr. 1, 1935, and graduated from the exclusive private Darlington High School in Rome in Floyd County in 1951. He then attended Davison College in North Carolina, and in 1957 received an M.D. degree from Emory University. He took postgraduate training in his speciality, urology, at the University of Michigan from 1963 to 1966. He later resided in Marietta and in 1974 was elected as a Democrat to the U.S. House of Representatives seat for affluent, ultraconservative Cobb County, and was serving his fifth term as congressman for that district at the time of his death.

Conservative to a psychopathic degree, the very embodiment of the lunatic fringe of the political far right, chairman of the John Birch Society, Larry McDonald was the most vociferous and fanatical right-wing extremist ever to sit in Congress. Although McDonald imagined that his political views were those of the Founding Fathers and as American as apple pie, in truth the reactionary conservative positions he staked out as to public policy issues were out of cloud-cuckoo-land. He voted against making Martin Luther King's birthday a holiday. He voted against funding of fair housing laws. "On Capitol Hill there was nobody more anti-Communist, anti-abortion, anti-homosexual, anti-gun control, or anti-big government (except where the military was concerned)," writes David E. Pearson in KAL 007: The Cover-Up (1987). McDonald's anti-Communism, like his other political posturing, was infatuated to the point of being fascistic. According to R. W. Johnson's Shootdown: Flight 007 and the American Connection (1986), McDonald once even attempted to nominate Rudolf Hess–the convicted Nazi war criminal then serving a life imprisonment sentence imposed at the Nuremberg Trial–for the Nobel Peace Prize, on the ground "that even a Nazi war criminal was a useful asset in the struggle against Communism." A political pariah during his nearly nine years in the House of Representatives, McDonald failed to obtain enactment of any legislation and was one of the most ineffectual congressmen in history.

Larry McDonald, the most famous person on board KAL 007, had not originally planned to be on the flight and ended up on the ill-fated airliner solely because of chance. Intending to travel to Seoul to participate in the celebration of the thirtieth anniversary of the United States-South Korea Mutual Defense Treaty, McDonald set out on his fatal journey on Sunday, Aug. 28, 1983 when he departed the Atlanta Airport on a flight bound for Kennedy Airport in New York City. Due to bad weather, McDonald's plane was diverted to Baltimore and when McDonald finally arrived at Kennedy he discovered he had missed his intended flight to Seoul by two or three minutes. He therefore decided to stay in New York City for two days and fly to Seoul on the KAL 007 flight which was scheduled to depart from Kennedy early on Wednesday, Aug. 31. In his last telephone conversation with his wife before boarding KAL 007, McDonald's wife (who had uneasy feelings about his trip) pleaded with him to cancel his visit to South Korea and come home, but McDonald refused.

With McDonald in aisle seat 02B in the first class section, KAL 007 duly took off on Aug. 31 at 12:24 a.m. local time, en route to Anchorage, Alaska for a scheduled stopover. After a 3,400 mile trip that lasted seven hours, the airliner landed in Anchorage. The plane remained on the ground for an hour and a half during which it was refueled, reprovisioned with food and drink, and cleaned and serviced. Four fortunate passengers, having completed their trips, disembarked at Anchorage, while several other passengers boarded the plane. The remaining passengers were given the option of leaving the aircraft and visiting the airport's huge duty-free shopping mall. Most did, but McDonald remained on the plane, catching up on his sleep. With a fresh flight crew, KAL 007 took off at 4 a.m. local time. The plane was scheduled to fly non-stop over the Pacific to Seoul's Kimpo International Airport, a nearly 4,500 mile stretch that would take slightly more than eight hours. There were 269 persons on board–246 passengers and 23 crew. "The passengers were a diverse group, including 75 South Koreans, 61 Americans, 23 Taiwanese, 28 Japanese, 15 Filipinos, 12 Chinese from Hong Kong, 10 Canadians, 6 Thais, and 4 Australians," Seymour Hersh writes in "The Target is Destroyed:" What Really Happened to Flight 007 and What America Knew About It (1986). "Twenty-three were children under twelve."

Although it was equipped with multiple sophisticated navigational systems and its cockpit crew was highly experienced and proficient, KAL 007 began deviating from its prescribed flight path within 10 minutes of takeoff. About three and a half hours into the flight, and by now hundreds of miles off course, KAL 007 began approaching Soviet territories where, as Oliver Clubb notes in KAL Flight 007: The Hidden Story (1985), "there [was] a highly important complex of Soviet strategic bases." Soon KAL 007 was flying over the Soviet Union's Kamchatka Peninsula, a barren and frozen 750-mile long land mass bristling with Soviet military and naval facilities, many of them top-secret. Soviet fighter jets were scrambled to deal with the intruder but failed to intercept the airliner. After flying through Soviet airspace for 38 minutes, Flight 007 exited Soviet territory. It then flew in international airspace over the Sea of Okhotsk for about an hour and a half. The airliner, which had now been aloft for five hours, then began to approach another part of the Soviet Union, Sakhalin Island, a long, thin island about half the size of Florida located southwest of the Sea of Okhotsk. Sakhalin was crammed with Soviet naval bases and shipyards, military airfields, and radar and intelligence-gathering facilities. KAL 007 actually re-entered Soviet airspace at 3:16 a.m. local time (it was still Aug. 31 in the United States, but now Sept. 1 here). As KAL 007 entered Soviet airspace for the second time in less than two hours, more Soviet fighter jets were sent up to deal with the intruder.

One of the planes sent up was an SU-15 supersonic fighter piloted by 39-year old Soviet Air Force Lt. Col. Gennadi Osipovich. After trailing the airliner for 60 miles, Osipovich was ordered to destroy the intruder, which in less than two minutes would exit Soviet airspace. At precisely 3:26 a.m. local time, from a distance of about three miles behind, he fired two air to air missiles at the airliner, which was cruising at about 35,000 feet. One missile was heat-seeking, the other radar-guided. The missiles, which each weighed 600 pounds (including a 70-pound high explosive warhead), whooshed toward the target at over 1,600 miles mph.

Less than five seconds later one or possibly both of the missiles struck the airliner. The resulting explosion was witnessed by the crew of a Japanese fishing boat six miles below who after hearing a loud bang looked up and saw what they described as "a glowing orange-colored, expanding fireball" which illuminated the night sky for around six seconds. Fatally damaged, the airliner did not immediately plummet into the icy waters of the Sea of Japan below; instead, with the cockpit crew struggling to control it, the aircraft began descending rapidly in vast, ever-widening spirals. Four minutes after being hit, KAL 007 had spiraled down to 16,000 feet, and eight minutes later it was at 2,000 feet. "[T]hen," as Alexander Dallin puts it bluntly in Black Box: KAL 007 and the Superpowers (1985), "having left Soviet territory, [the airliner] plunged vertically into the sea." From 2,000 feet about one minute would elapse until the doomed plane impacted with the sea. David E. Pearson writes that during those final 60 seconds, as the sea below appeared to be rushing up at them at fantastic speed, "time must have seemed an eternity for the innocent passengers on board. Their horror and fear must have been unbearable."

The last minutes of Larry McDonald's life had to have been worse than a nightmare. "The scene inside the plane must have been utterly terrifying–people falling and sliding, children screaming and an icy, knifelike wind shrieking into the plane as it fell and fell through an age of blackness," R. W. Johnson relates. "One cannot read, let alone write, about such scenes without experiencing the strongest and most elemental emotions.... A few of the passengers may have been lucky enough to have been killed outright by the metal fragments tearing through the plane. Those who were asleep would have been awoken by an immense shock wave and a terrifying crash. The oxygen would have been rapidly sucked out of the plane and the onrush of thin, freezing air would have produced both a thick mist and a tremendous drop in temperature. In these conditions, with people screaming and probably thrown about the cabin, many–most notably the babies and smaller children–would have failed to get their oxygen masks on.... [The passengers] who did not suffer rapid asphyxiation would have begun, quite rapidly, to freeze to death. Unfortunately, though, some would have got their oxygen masks on and the residual warmth of the cabin (plus their sleeping blankets) and the plane's rapid descent into more breathable air would have meant that some–perhaps many–of the 269 people aboard would have survived to live through another 12 minutes of utter terror before meeting their deaths."

Seymour Hersh also gives us a vivid description of how horrific those final moments must have been for McDonald and the other persons on KAL 007: "The attack came at a time when passengers would be asleep or trying to sleep; the last twelve minutes could only have been agonizing. The cabin, whether directly hit or penetrated by missile fragments, would immediately lose air pressure and would begin turning cold; some passengers, still strapped into their seats, may have been killed outright by shrapnel or debris as others watched terror-stricken. Those who suffered the most would be the ones who survived the first moments. The cabin would fog as the drop in air density caused the water vapor in the air to precipitate immediately. Within seconds the airliner's air-conditioning units, reacting to the sudden drop in temperature, would begin pumping heat into the cabin. Many of the passengers, protected by blankets and breathing through oxygen masks, would have survived the initial missile impact–and the descent to the sea–knowing that they were going to their death."

The KAL 007 shootdown unleashed ugly exchanges of recriminations between the United States and the Soviet Union. As Marilyn J. Young and Michael K. Launer astutely observe in Flights of Fancy, Flight of Doom: KAL 007 and Soviet-American Rhetoric (1988): "In mounting their respective propaganda campaigns, both the Reagan administration and the Andropov government withheld information, distorted the facts, and engaged in the ‘creation of truth.'"

Today, two decades after the KAL 007 death flight, the Soviet Union and its Communist regime no longer exist, and passions have cooled. Some new evidence concerning the tragedy is also available. Furthermore, an event occurring in 1988 has sapped noticeably American outrage about the downing of Larry McDonald's plane. Much of the revulsion Americans felt about the KAL 007 shootdown was premised on the instinctive assumption that (as Richard Rohmer asserts in Massacre 747 (1984)) "the shooting down of a civilian airliner has no justification in human, moral or civilized terms." Americans reacting to the KAL 007 deaths firmly thought that, as The New York Times wrote at the time, "There is no conceivable excuse for any nation shooting down a harmless airliner ... and no circumstance whatever justifies attacking an innocent plane." However, on July 3, 1988, less than five years after the KAL 007 disaster, a U.S. Navy vessel in the Persian Gulf, under the mistaken impression that it was threatened with attack by a hostile airplane, fired a ground to air missile at an innocent commercial airliner, Iran Air Flight 655, which in broad daylight was flying within its approved flight path over international waters and had not strayed into any unauthorized airspace. The missile destroyed Flight 655, and all 290 persons aboard were killed. Both the Reagan administration and the American press trotted out various excuses for the downing of the Iranian airliner, expressed sympathy for the captain of the vessel that fired the missile, and claimed that the flight crew of the airliner was partly at fault for what happened. But the Flight 655 incident forever ended this country's previous confident assumption that military attacks destroying civilian airliners were in all cases outrageous, barbaric, and uncivilized.

What, then, are some of the dispassionate conclusions which at the present time may be drawn about the KAL 007 tragedy?

First, contrary to what the United States maintained at the time, it is now definitely established that prior to the shootdown the Soviets made unsuccessful efforts to communicate with the airliner by radio, that before any missiles were launched the fighters used their cannons to fire bursts of warning shots which the airliner ignored, and that the Soviets did not know that the plane they were attacking was a civilian airliner. Furthermore, it is almost certain that the Soviets mistook the airliner for a Boeing 707 American intelligence aircraft which was operating off the coast of Kamchatka and was in the vicinity of KAL 007 two hours before the shootdown.

Second, although it was kept secret at the time, within a day or two of the shootdown American intelligence agencies knew that the Soviets had attacked KAL 007 without realizing it was a civilian airliner.

Third, from an examination of the cockpit conversation during the half-hour preceding the missile attack it is now known that, to quote a 1993 report by the International Civil Aviation Organization, there was "a normal, relaxed atmosphere on the flight deck of KAL 007," and that "the flight crew of KAL 007 was not aware of the presence of the [Soviet] interceptor aircraft before or at the time of the attack." The ICAO's report is based on a transcript of the plane's cockpit voice recorder tapes. Those tapes, after being surreptitiously recovered and then hidden away by the Soviet Union, were handed over to the ICAO by the Russian Federation (the Soviet Union's successor) in 1992. The seven-page transcript, which tells us everything that was said by the flight crew during the period beginning 32 minutes before the plane was hit and ending one and a half minutes after the sound of an explosion, is available online and may be viewed by visiting the Aviation Safety Network Homepage (www.aviation-safety.net/cvr/cvr_ke007.htm). Thus, it may be definitely concluded that nothing in the known cockpit conversation indicates that KAL 007 was on a spy mission, that the aircraft took any evasive actions prior to the attack, or that it was even aware of the mortal danger facing it.

Fourth, in view of the United States's massive radar and electronic surveillance capabilities in the Far East, it is fairly certain that American intelligence agencies were lying when they claimed that during the flight they were unaware that KAL 007 was dangerously off course and that consequently they could not have arranged for the airliner to be warned that it was in peril.

Fifth, while it remains unknown why KAL 007 deviated from its authorized flight path and ended up flying into Soviet airspace, the numerous explanations once offered for the deviation have been reduced to two. The first is that KAL 007 innocently strayed from its course because the flight crew committed but failed to detect enormous navigational errors. The second is that the airliner was intentionally off course because it was on a spying mission (presumably for a United States intelligence agency).

The main problem with the first explanation is that it compels us to believe things that are impossibly unlikely–namely, that an experienced and skilled flight crew not only displayed a shocking lack of alertness and attentiveness, but also omitted to perform a huge number of required navigational instrument checks while ignoring a staggering number of warnings. As Oliver Clubb correctly notes, the theory that KAL 007 accidently strayed "assume that the airliner's crew did not properly carry out any of a whole series of routine procedures–any one of which, properly carried out, would have negated the possibility of gross deviation in the first instance or enabled the crew to discover that deviation and bring the aircraft back on course. The picture here is of an unbelievably incompetent, irresponsible, and careless air crew.... [T]he odds against all of these virtually inconceivable errors of commission and omission taking place ... are astronomical."

The principal problem with second explanation–that there was a deliberate diversion from the planned flight route for the purpose of intelligence-gathering–is that, while there are a number of highly suspicious circumstances pointing in the direction of this possibility, there is still no solid or conclusive evidence in support of this hypothesis. The KAL 007 cockpit tape recordings certainly do not give any indication of a possible espionage mission. On the other hand, it must be realized that American intelligence agencies had used civilian planes for spying operations in the past and that if they had done so in this case they would hardly admit it and would be expert at covering up their involvement.

The corpse of Larry McDonald was never recovered from the depths of the Sea of Japan, and today he seems a nearly forgotten figure from a bygone era.

John Calvin, the Reformation theologian, would not admit the existence of such a thing as fortune or chance; "we [do not] suppose fortune holds any dominion over the world and mankind, and whirls about all things," he wrote in his famous Institutes. "Fortune and chance are words ... with [no] signification." But the fate of Larry McDonald suggests the contrary. McDonald would not have died a violent death at age 48 if it had not been for a series of chance events. How different, we realize, McDonald's destiny might have been if, after his plane from Atlanta was diverted, he had arrived at the New York airport a few minutes earlier and been able to board his intended flight; if he had decided to reschedule his journey by taking some flight other than KAL 007; if his wife's forebodings had persuaded him to scrap his plans to go to South Korea and he had never boarded KAL 007; if after leaving Anchorage KAL 007 had remained on course, or had corrected its course when it strayed; if KAL 007 had entered Soviet airspace only once rather than twice; if no American reconnaissance aircraft had been in the same vicinity as KAL 007 at about the same time; if KAL 007 had responded to Soviet radio inquiries or heeded Soviet warnings; or if, before the fighter was prepared to launch its missiles, KAL 007 had been able to make it into the international airspace that was so near when the missiles were fired. The goddess of fortune, however, seems not to have smiled on him, and chance events appear to have inexorably doomed him. Because any of these "ifs" could have happened, and none of them did, was not Larry McDonald therefore fated to die?

One of the few Georgia memorials to Larry McDonald is the segment of I-75 running through Cobb county, which is named after him. In this way does Cobb county–the county where Leo Frank was lynched by respectable local citizens and where the lynchers were admired and protected and their identities concealed as part of a coverup by the local citizenry that continues to this day, the county that later elected Bob Barr to Congress, the county whose governing body a few years ago approved a resolution condemning "the gay lifestyle," the county where currently public school teaching of the scientific truths of biology is under attack and hamstrung due to the opposition of the right-wing political elements that regard evolution as against the Bible–pay its respects to Larry McDonald.

The incident in which Larry McDonald died was a catastrophic tragedy in which many innocent lives, including children and babies, were lost. It is also true, in the words of the old apothegm, that of the dead nothing should be said but good. But Larry McDonald was a demented, repulsive politician whose politics were so loathsome and his political career so vile that with regard to his death harsh judgments cannot be ameliorated by the awful circumstances of his demise.


A southern Democrat lawmaker, who was also jointly Chairman of the John Birch Society and President of Western Goals Foundation, both famously anti-Globalist/anti-communist organizations, and who had announced to his advisors in the weeks prior to his death that he would be seeking the Presidency of the United States--as a conservative Democrat--in 1988. A cousin of WWII hero General George S. Patton, and who had inherited Patton's mountain of anti-Soviet Intelligence records; who had organized a private Intelligence network which threatened to rival that of the CIA--at once commanding, polished on-the-stump and movie-star handsome: ...the kind of man who could seriously derail the Presidential aspirations of George Herbert Walker Bush, the elder.

McDonald was a strong contender for the Presidency, without Bush Sr gaining this, it would have put a huge dent in the New World Order`s long term plans and targets including their enforced introduction into Democracy and central banking systems starting with Desert Storm and the declaration of war against Iraq based on prolific lies and deceit.............
Today, more than three months after Bush's stirring declaration of war and nearly two months since he declared victory, no chemical, biological or nuclear weapons have been found, nor any documentation of their existence, nor any sign they were deployed in the field.

The mainstream press, after an astonishing two years of cowardice, is belatedly drawing attention to the unconscionable level of administrative deception. They seem surprised to find that when it comes to Iraq, the Bush administration isn't prone to the occasional lie of expediency but, in fact, almost never told the truth.

What follows are just the most outrageous and significant of the dozens of outright lies uttered by Bush and his top officials over the past year in what amounts to a systematic campaign to scare the bejeezus out of everybody:

LIE #1: "The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program ... Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons." -- President Bush, Oct. 7, 2002, in Cincinnati.

FACT: This story, leaked to and breathlessly reported by Judith Miller in the New York Times, has turned out to be complete baloney. Department of Energy officials, who monitor nuclear plants, say the tubes could not be used for enriching uranium. One intelligence analyst, who was part of the tubes investigation, angrily told The New Republic : "You had senior American officials like Condoleezza Rice saying the only use of this aluminum really is uranium centrifuges. She said that on television. And that's just a lie."

LIE #2: "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." -- President Bush, Jan.28, 2003, in the State of the Union address.

FACT: This whopper was based on a document that the White House already knew to be a forgery thanks to the CIA. Sold to Italian intelligence by some hustler, the document carried the signature of an official who had been out of office for 10 years and referenced a constitution that was no longer in effect. The ex-ambassador who the CIA sent to check out the story is pissed: "They knew the Niger story was a flat-out lie," he told the New Republic, anonymously. "They [the White House] were unpersuasive about aluminum tubes and added this to make their case more strongly."

LIE #3: "We believe [Saddam] has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons." -- Vice President Cheney on March 16, 2003 on "Meet the Press."

FACT: There was and is absolutely zero basis for this statement. CIA reports up through 2002 showed no evidence of an Iraqi nuclear weapons program.

LIE #4: "[The CIA possesses] solid reporting of senior-level contacts between Iraq and al-Qaeda going back a decade." -- CIA Director George Tenet in a written statement released Oct. 7, 2002 and echoed in that evening's speech by President Bush.

FACT: Intelligence agencies knew of tentative contacts between Saddam and al-Qaeda in the early '90s, but found no proof of a continuing relationship. In other words, by tweaking language, Tenet and Bush spun the intelligence180 degrees to say exactly the opposite of what it suggested.

LIE #5: "We've learned that Iraq has trained al-Qaeda members in bomb-making and poisons and deadly gases ... Alliance with terrorists could allow the Iraqi regime to attack America without leaving any fingerprints." -- President Bush, Oct. 7 .

FACT: No evidence of this has ever been leaked or produced. Colin Powell told the U.N. this alleged training took place in a camp in northern Iraq. To his great embarrassment, the area he indicated was later revealed to be outside Iraq's control and patrolled by Allied war planes.

LIE #6: "We have also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas. We are concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using these UAVs [unmanned aerial vehicles] for missions targeting the United States." -- President Bush, Oct. 7.

FACT: Said drones can't fly more than 300 miles, and Iraq is 6,000 miles from the U.S. coastline. Furthermore, Iraq's drone-building program wasn't much more advanced than your average model plane enthusiast. And isn't a "manned aerial vehicle" just a scary way to say "plane"?

LIE #7: "We have seen intelligence over many months that they have chemical and biological weapons, and that they have dispersed them and that they're weaponized and that, in one case at least, the command and control arrangements have been established." -- President Bush, Feb. 8, 2003, in a national radio address.

FACT: Despite a massive nationwide search by U.S. and British forces, there are no signs, traces or examples of chemical weapons being deployed in the field, or anywhere else during the war.

LIE #8: "Our conservative estimate is that Iraq today has a stockpile of between 100 and 500 tons of chemical weapons agent. That is enough to fill 16,000 battlefield rockets." -- Secretary of State Colin Powell, Feb. 5 2003, in remarks to the UN Security Council.

FACT: Putting aside the glaring fact that not one drop of this massive stockpile has been found, as previously reported on AlterNet the United States' own intelligence reports show that these stocks -- if they existed -- were well past their use-by date and therefore useless as weapon fodder.

LIE #9: "We know where [Iraq's WMD] are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south, and north somewhat." -- Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, March 30, 2003, in statements to the press.

FACT: Needless to say, no such weapons were found, not to the east, west, south or north, somewhat or otherwise.

LIE #10: "Yes, we found a biological laboratory in Iraq which the UN prohibited." -- President Bush in remarks in Poland, published internationally June 1, 2003.

FACT: This was reference to the discovery of two modified truck trailers that the CIA claimed were potential mobile biological weapons lab. But British and American experts -- including the State Department's intelligence wing in a report released this week -- have since declared this to be untrue. According to the British, and much to Prime Minister Tony Blair's embarrassment, the trailers are actually exactly what Iraq said they were; facilities to fill weather balloons, sold to them by the British themselves.

So, months after the war, we are once again where we started -- with plenty of rhetoric and absolutely no proof of this "grave danger" for which O.J. Smith died. The Bush administration is now scrambling to place the blame for its lies on faulty intelligence, when in fact the intelligence was fine; it was their abuse of it that was "faulty."

Rather than apologize for leading us to a preemptive war based on impossibly faulty or shamelessly distorted "intelligence" or offering his resignation, our sly madman in the White House is starting to sound more like that other O.J. Like the man who cheerfully played golf while promising to pursue "the real killers," Bush is now vowing to search for "the true extent of Saddam Hussein's weapons programs, no matter how long it takes."

On the terrible day of the 9/11 attacks, five hours after a hijacked plane slammed into the Pentagon, retired Gen. Wesley Clark received a strange call from someone (he didn't name names) representing the White House position: "I was on CNN, and I got a call at my home saying, 'You got to say this is connected. This is state-sponsored terrorism. This has to be connected to Saddam Hussein,'" Clark told Meet the Press anchor Tim Russert. "I said, 'But -- I'm willing to say it, but what's your evidence?' And I never got any evidence.'"

And neither did we.


And none have been proven to be fabricated more than this one...................

 
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Thanks for the information Roy :)

Unfortunately, I don't really have a strong enough concern that we are all imperiled by a group of unknowns who attempt to control (very poorly I may add) the course of world affairs to reply to all of your arguments. It's a bit like someone else we know who makes their arguments so long that nobody has the time or inclination to point out all the errors, making those arguments in turn appear valid and fully accepted as true.......although I know you better, and I know that, for you, it is a real passion.

Just a couple of things however. In regards to the KAL disaster, the explanation in the wiki article I linked to is perfectly logical, and contradicts most of what you say. If you haven't read it, I would be grateful if you did and share your thoughts on the content.

In reference to the Iranian airline disaster, it was a clear case of the ship's captain being where he should not have been, combined with a design fault in the radar system that identified the airline as an Iranian fighter taking off right behind the airliner and continuing to relay data from the fighter even though the screen cursor was on the airliner, and the fact that the ship was engaged in a surface battle. Another complication was that the ship was using Bahrain time, whilst the flight schedule provided by Iran was in Iranian time (these schedules are provided to warships in the gulf to prevent such accidents), hence the warship was unable to match the airliner with any scheduled flight (plus the flight was late).

Lastly, one of the biggest problems with the CT community is that when a lone scholar comes up with an article/report supporting their theories, or some poster comes up with a new "fact" or "angle", the CTs immediately hold it up as watertight and use it to add credibility to their CT.......however, when a scholar comes forward with a contrary explanation, they are automatically "part of the conspiracy" or "part of an engineered plan of misinformation", and those posters who present alternate theories and solid facts are labelled "misinformationalists", "shills", and "character assassins"......in fact you do it too Roy, although perhaps not as badly as many I've read. Here is where the CT community is making a grave error in communication.......once you make it about people and not facts, you lose most logical open-minded readers, as they are interested in facts and not whether someone might be one thing or another.

A fact is a fact, regardless of who presents it, and in the 9/11 CT I see a LOT of conjecture, supposition, and "what if/why didn't". These are not facts.

It's also important to note that the fact that so many explanations and theories exist about the WTC collapses shows that NOBODY REALLY KNOWS what ACTUALLY happened inside the buildings structure.....otherwise everyone would agree, as it would be a FACT. The scientific community has no prior event of this magnitude to compare with, and until the same tower construction collapses under the same conditions then we won't know for sure.

I know you kinda answered my question about how many people would need to be involved in such a HUGE conspiracy......but you kinda didn't. Let's assume there were "only a few" who were involved in the placing of charges......how about the rest of the conspiracy? You're asking me to believe that NOBODY among the hundreds if not thousands of people who would have to be involved in such a conspiracy (in my estimate) had ANY scruples about killing thousands of their countrymen? I would love to see the results of a secret ballot among the military about whether they would participate in such a plan....and the military would have to have been involved at some point. It would only take ONE person to go public about it and the whole event could NEVER take place EVER.....as it would be immediately obvious the person was right and it would bring down a government, if not the country.

As for the BBC 26 mins thing.....there are so many logical explanations for this it isn't funny. The madness and fluidity of that day caused MANY misreports and incorrect information to be broadcast as fact. The idea that "someone wasn't listening at the briefing" is just ridiculous, as it implies that OTHER countries were involved in the conspiracies, and even MORE ridiculous, foreign MEDIA. Anyone who knows a media person/journalist personally would know that something like this would never fly for a second. It has been proven time and time again that a message relayed from one person to another will transform along the journey.....it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that "WTC07 is about to collapse" could very easily become "WTC07 has collapsed" after being relayed through a few people on the ground during intense confusion. The argument that "the anchor was reporting the collapse with the building clearly visible in the background" is a real straw-clutcher. Firstly, the anchor wasn't looking backwards, and even if they HAD done so seconds before the report, how would they know which building was WTC07? I reckon most people would have struggled to tell you which building was WTC07 before 9/11, and probably even more so on the day.

Very lastly.....the "steel shouldn't have melted" argument. Who took the actual temperature of the steel and the surroundings at the time of collapse?

Bottom line. The CT community relies almost exclusively on process of elimination. I haven't seen any 9/11 events that don't have a logical, scientific explanation. Just because the CT don't like or agree with those explanations, doesn't make them less plausible I.e. for process of elimination to work, you must show ALL other explanations to be completely false.....and AFAIK, such elimination is not possible in regards to the events surrounding 9/11.

It's nothing personal Roy.....I hope you know that :)
 
To those wanting to debate 9/11 I will be adding more about this in my symbolism thread, I had intended adding more stuff there, as like I have previously stated I haven`t even scratched the surface yet, I have been hindered somewhat with regards to adding more stuff as my main source of video clips and hard to obtain photos has been eradicated due to my account at ATS being one of the thousands that got hacked and all the relative data being deleted, however, one of my close contacts whom I befriended at ATS is going to email me some of the main pictures I need for my next post relating to 9/11.

Okay, back to topic. It`s a well known documented fact that the Illuminati like to release subliminal type messages about their future plans courtesy of the media and films, none blow my mind more than the Illuminati card game released by Steve Jackson Games. I have selected some of the cards that are relevant, I have also added some real life pictures to show the similarities between them and what actually happened, the cards......


cards.jpg


The cards depict a terrorist attack against what is clearly shown as two tower blocks, also if you look to the left of this card you will see the all seeing eye - The chosen symbol of the Illuminati, a card with the words GOAL Population Reduction and smoke rising from what is clearly two towers, a tidal wave hitting a nuclear power plant, a nuclear disaster, and what appears to be Asian type people panic stricken as a clock bearing the time of 14:55 or 11:12 is shown, I Googled Japanese clock tower and added a picture of the clock it produced (The Wako Clock tower at Ginza in Tokyo) which bears an uncanny resemblance to the clock on the card, the Lady Diana card states that she is immune to everything bar the media - so, she is vulnerable to the media.

Well, so what, you may think, someone is cashing in on past world events by releasing a game, think again, these cards were released in 1995, two years before the death of Lady Diana due to being chased by the paparazzi (media), six years before the 9/11 attacks, and sixteen years prior to the Japanese Tsunami disaster, which amongst other aspects caused a tidal wave to hit a nuclear power plant.

Predicting the death of someone or an alleged attack by terrorists can of course be predicted if you have insider information about them, however, an act of nature cannot be predicted nor triggered by mankind, or can it?, as I stated previously the world in general is way behind the technical capabilities of the government`s, there is a lot of talk out there of HAARP - High Frequency Active Auroral Program.

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Project Bluebeam in action, pay attention to the videos showing what was believed to be a UFO over Norway (a well documented incident)......

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Once you have watched the videos and looked at the pictures you will notice a light in the sky caused by the satellites used when HAARP is in operation, also, there are hundreds of accounts of people hearing weird noises and strange lights in the sky from around the globe, okay, remember the light in the sky?...............................





Google Steve Jackson gets raided by the secret services, makes for some interesting reading, his Illuminati RPG with the cards are based on either - An uncanny sense to be able to predict the future, or, he had some insider information.
 
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