North Korea and US politics

[mack341]

In my experience, the left are aggrieved at most all vioent crime, sex trafficking, murder, rape, capital punishment, hate crime, etc

TBF, one cant spend every hr battling every cause because well, you couldnt wake up and function or live.

And sure, there's plenty bandwagon jumpers; but that applies both sides, as needs be and politics come into play.

Remember, this is more a straw that broke the proverbial back

Well the left in the uk hardly ever mention tackling crime, if say knife crime is brought up, the response will probably be 'we need to spend millions on building some youth clubs' or the police are racist for using 'stop and search' but how else are they going to catch the knife carriers ? unfortunately innocent people wil be stopped but it's the price to pay in order to remove the scourge of knife crime. [that will blight their lives far more than an occasional police search]

The right have their blind spots I'm sure, but the left's seems to be about standards of behaviour and crime. Most of the riots in the US were in democratic controlled areas, so their local policies/laws have failed. That's an interesting issue the MSmedia never seem to raise

Maybe the left in canada are a bit more sensible, you do still have the mounties after all

 

[dionysus]

Things are getting better in Canada though? I always expect good outcomes from your country Things getting handled properly etc.

It's a pretty vast country with a low pop. so socail distancing is nearly the default, barring major cities.

Unlike the US, we tend to do 'what we're told' - and no, not a US attack; weve entirely different mentalities; whereas the US fought for many rights and freedoms, we were generally granted them - so, by and large, it really isnt all fuss and bother.
Stay home? ok
social distance? ok
love thy neighbour? ok

We truck along; of course, not to say, it isnt entirely difficult for many; noone enjoys the restrictions but we trudge through for the most part
it isnt universal mind, generally speaking

 

[vorcirion]

Well the left in the uk hardly ever mention tackling crime, if say knife crime is brought up, the response will probably be 'we need to spend millions on building some youth clubs' or the police are racist for using 'stop and search' but how else are they going to catch the knife carriers ? unfortunately innocent people wil be stopped but it's the price to pay in order to remove the scourge of knife crime. [that will blight their lives far more than an occasional police search]

The right have their blind spots I'm sure, but the left's seems to be about standards of behaviour and crime. Most of the riots in the US were in democratic controlled areas, so their local policies/laws have failed. That's an interesting issue the MSmedia never seem to raise

Maybe the left in canada are a bit more sensible, you do still have the mounties after all

You have had right-wing government for 10 years now if I understood correctly. But you still somehow manage to blame the leftists? Again makes no sense to me!

 

[vorcirion]

It's a pretty vast country with a low pop. so socail distancing is nearly the default, barring major cities.

Unlike we US, we tend to do 'what we're told' - and no, not a US attack; weve entirely different mentalities; whereas the US fought for many rights and freedoms, we were generally granted them - so, by and large, it really isnt all fuss and bother.
Stay home? ok
social distance? ok
love thy neighbour? ok

We truck along; of course, not to say, it isnt entirely difficult for many; noone enjoys the restrictions but we trudge through for the most part
it isnt universal mind, generally speaking

Sounds like Finland to me Just a bigger version of it!

 

[Playford7]

You have had right-wing government for 10 years now if I understood correctly. But you still somehow manage to blame the leftists? Again makes no sense to me!

If you think the Conservative party is right wing then you understand very very little, either that or your terribly educated.

 

[vorcirion]

If you think the Conservative party is right wing then you understand very very little.

They are leftists? I really don't know much about your country

 

[mack341]

Even the police in the uk are a joke as you know, either fatties or skinny clowns.

Very true, and if you ever watch those bailiff tv programmes they always hire beefy guys who can handle themselves and they're just enforcing a court order for unpaid debts, yet the police will go out of their way to hire people unable to physically look after themselves. You would've made a good old fashioned cop Ben!

The discipline and training of the army seems to be on a different level to the police, still traditional and tough to get through.

 

[vorcirion]

If you think the Conservative party is right wing then you understand very very little, either that or your terribly educated.

"The Conservative Party, officially the Conservative and Unionist Party and also known colloquially as the Tories or simply the Conservatives, is a

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So Conservatives have been in power since 2010 and Mack keeps blaming the leftists. How does that work exactly? Your right-wing logic makes no sense.

 

[Playford7]

"The Conservative Party, officially the Conservative and Unionist Party and also known colloquially as the Tories or simply the Conservatives, is a

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So Conservatives have been in power since 2010 and Mack keeps blaming the leftists. How does that work exactly? Your right-wing logic makes no sense.

Doesn’t the link you sent say centre right?
If not my massive apologies.

 

[vorcirion]

Doesn’t the link you sent say centre right?
If not my massive apologies.

It does say that. If they are centre right...how is it leftists' fault if things aren't working in your country?

 

[Playford7]

It does say that. If they are centre right...how is it leftists' fault if things aren't working in your country?

So not far right.
That’s great. Glad we cleared that up mate.
Also nothing racist being right leaning, just means normally we are right as the last election proved.

 

[vorcirion]

So not far right.
That’s great. Glad we cleared that up mate.
Also nothing racist being right leaning, just means normally we are right as the last election proved.

You certainly made your choice Will be fun to see how it works out for you. With Corona...not so well. Maybe Brexit will be handled better (lol).

 

[Playford7]

You certainly made your choice Will be fun to see how it works out for you. With Corona...not so well. Maybe Brexit will be handled better (lol).

So not far right mate? Let me know if the link you sent mentions that.
If not why did You send me it pal?
Brexit is no deal, what i voted for, no issues there.

 

[mack341]

That starts sounding like US policing. Don't follow that road...do something that actually helps!

I'd shake up the education system, re-open technical colleges for people who prefer to use their hands than learn about geography or history etc...we could save a fortune by getting crime down. I'm not interested in cops strangling people, get the cuffs on them, in the van and down to the cells. We need more police on the street as some people will violently resist arrest.

Loads of things you could trial to see if they make a difference but as far as I can tell we're doing nothing in the uk and violent crime is getting worse. I don't mind if an idea is left wing if it works, but if it doesn't work or even makes things worse then ditch it.

 

[vorcirion]

So not far right mate? Let me know if the link you sent mentions that.
If not why did You send me it pal?
Brexit is no deal, what i voted for, no issues there.

I don't know where you get that far right from. There's nothing about far right. But if your country has problems...don't blame leftists. Blame Tories.

 

[dionysus]

I'd shake up the education system, re-open technical colleges for people who prefer to use their hands than learn about geography or history etc...

Good call. I happen to believe should be more focus on technical trades than a piece of paper saying youre well read (note: many good, solid, college and uni degrees still have merit)

 

[vorcirion]

I'd shake up the education system, re-open technical colleges for people who prefer to use their hands than learn about geography or history etc...we could save a fortune by getting crime down. I'm not interested in cops strangling people, get the cuffs on them, in the van and down to the cells. We need more police on the street as some people will violently resist arrest.

Loads of things you could trial to see if they make a difference but as far as I can tell we're doing nothing in the uk and violent crime is getting worse. I don't mind if an idea is left wing if it works, but if it doesn't work or even makes things worse then ditch it.

You don't have those technical colleges at the moment?

 

[Playford7]

I don't know where you get that far right from. There's nothing about far right. But if your country has problems...don't blame leftists. Blame Tories.

You above wrongly stated we have a right wing government mate.
And not sure if i did blame leftists, if I did can you show me where please mate and I’ll happily discuss this with you, not a problem at all.

 

[mack341]

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So Conservatives have been in power since 2010 and Mack keeps blaming the leftists. How does that work exactly? Your right-wing logic makes no sense.

The govt as in the permanent one i.e. civil service is centre left or liberal. They advise the politicians on policy and laws. Even Maggie T's govt had a big hand in removing the bobby on the beat, an old fashioned deterrent that works, and she was supposedly a big right winger.

Boris is a kind of bohemian tory, he has a liberal outlook on some things, he's no john redwoood [aka the vulcan]

 

[mack341]

You don't have those technical colleges at the moment?

Not for secondary age kids afaik, the 14 year olds disrupting lessons for everyone else, give them something practical to learn and I'm sure it would help.

 

[vorcirion]

Not for secondary age kids afaik, the 14 year olds disrupting lessons for everyone else, give them something practical to learn and I'm sure it would help.

That I fully agree with.

 

[vorcirion]

The govt as in the permanent one i.e. civil service is centre left or liberal. They advise the politicians on policy and laws. Even Maggie T's govt had a big hand in removing the bobby on the beat, an old fashioned deterrent that works, and she was supposedly a big right winger.

Boris is a kind of bohemian tory, he has a liberal outlook on some things, he's no jon redwoood [aka the vulcan]

You know how confusing this sounds? People voted for Tories...but they are adviced by leftists...but I guess Tories don't need to follow their advice? I have absolutely no clue how your country works.

 

[dionysus]

You know how confusing this sounds? People voted for Tories...but they are adviced by leftists...but I guess Tories don't need to follow their advice? I have absolutely no clue how your country works.

I think, from time to time, the queen comes round and says 'orv wiv their 'eads'

but i might have read that in a comic book

 

[Playford7]

You know how confusing this sounds? People voted for Tories...but they are adviced by leftists...but I guess Tories don't need to follow their advice? I have absolutely no clue how your country works.

You got very confused thinking the conservative gov was right wing so it’s easy to grasp you make many errors mate.
Anyhow off to bed, it’s been a pleasure.
Ben

 

[vorcirion]

You got very confused thinking the conservative gov was right wing so it’s easy to grasp you make many errors mate.
Anyhow off to bed, it’s been a pleasure.
Ben

Center right is still right-wing! But yeah I'll do some googling about your weird island after some sleep. Good night!

 

[mack341]

You know how confusing this sounds? People voted for Tories...but they are adviced by leftists...but I guess Tories don't need to follow their advice? I have absolutely no clue how your country works.

No nor do I much

well it is similar [but in an exaggerated way] with Trump's decisions being constantly challenged by judges, even the supreme court the other week decided in favour of the liberal direction and trump had appointed to it two supposedly right wing judges, it didn't make a difference. The civil service have to implement the laws and policy changes, so realistically they need to be onboard and agree. You end up with a wishy-washy liberal leaning consensus.

Imagine the ukgc were put in control of running the country, and you get an idea of how bad that would go they're like a microcosm of uk govt performance.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Trump wasn’t or isn’t a criminal whom held a gun to a pregnant ladies belly...
He’s also not a drug addicted low life.
He runs a country...
George floyd was a low life thug who made his choices and now deals with it.. or not
It’s set back race relations decades.
But let’s be frank here, it’s only a big a issue as it is as people keep talking about it.
It’s a political movement, nothing more.
If it wasn’t why are the black folks not addressing why they are over represented massively in murder, incarceration, single families and jobless families..
suppose that’s all racism too!..
Give me a break.

Just a tiny selection:

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No to say the case of his charity and the over a dozen sealed indictments waiting for him when he is out of the WH.

Keep the blinders on mate!

 

[dionysus]

oh gods, just spit juice through my nose

2 of my friends on FB - and both American FTR

 

[ladyhawke]

I agree there is a heck of a lot of selective outrage. Murders and violent crime are becoming commonplace. The left never mention it as far as I can tell.

There was a woman found in the forest of dean, sawn in half and put in a suitcase, something is seriously going wrong. But no it's far more important to protest and get worked up about some statues

There have been, and always will be, horrendous murders that are beyond the comprehension of ordinary people. These crimes are reported on, but the world moves swiftly on as the only people affected are those immediately involved. You/me/the man down the street do not suffer any fallout from these types of crime at all.

It is a harsh truth, but we soon forget these barbarous crimes, simply because we are not directly affected.

However the murder of George Floyd, in a public place, in full view of cameras, carried out by those who are meant to protect us, to preserve law and order - this is the type of crime that tips the balance, and engenders protests, because we are all fundamentally affected.

As someone stated earlier, George Floyd's death really may prove to be the final straw, as his murder has proved, once and for all, that all men are not created equal, particularly if you are BAME, and these protests are now far greater than the murder of one man, who simply was the catalyst.

So to casually dismiss the protests and the destruction of "some statues" as selective outrage shows a fundamental lack of insight into what is actually occurring.

The destruction of the statues is symbolic. People are not trying to "whitewash/photoshop" history by this destruction. Instead, they are taking out their anger and frustration on a target that is a tangible representation of the tribulations they have faced for generations; denigrated and reviled for having a different skin colour, and for daring to dream that one day 'all men will be created equal'.

I think George Floyd's murder has shown that particular dream is as close to fruition as it was generations ago, which is nowhere.

And that is the reason the world hasn't moved swiftly on. Because like it or not, we are all now directly impacted by what is now happening.

The world needs to change, and you can be part of this change. Or you can remain part of the problem.

Your choice.

 

[dionysus]

There have been, and always will be, horrendous murders that are beyond the comprehension of ordinary people. These crimes are reported on, but the world moves swiftly on as the only people affected are those immediately involved. You/me/the man down the street do not suffer any fallout from these types of crime at all.

It is a harsh truth, but we soon forget these barbarous crimes, simply because we are not directly affected.

However the murder of George Floyd, in a public place, in full view of cameras, carried out by those who are meant to protect us, to preserve law and order - this is the type of crime that tips the balance, and engenders protests, because we are all fundamentally affected.

As someone stated earlier, George Floyd's death really may prove to be the final straw, as his murder has proved, once and for all, that all men are not created equal, particularly if you are BAME, and these protests are now far greater than the murder of one man, who simply was the catalyst.

So to casually dismiss the protests and the destruction of "some statues" as selective outrage shows a fundamental lack of insight into what is actually occurring.

The destruction of the statues is symbolic. People are not trying to "whitewash/photoshop" history by this destruction. Instead, they are taking out their anger and frustration on a target that is a tangible representation of the tribulations they have faced for generations; denigrated and reviled for having a different skin colour, and for daring to dream that one day 'all men will be created equal'.

I think George Floyd's murder has shown that particular dream is as close to fruition as it was generations ago, which is nowhere.

And that is the reason the world hasn't moved swiftly on. Because like it or not, we are all now directly impacted by what is now happening.

The world needs to change, and you can be part of this change. Or you can remain part of the problem.

Your choice.

no shield emjoi here, so thisll have to suffice

 

[Harry_BKK]

The current state of affairs under Mr T is called a......

 

[sufferinsilence]

I watched the whole rally. Feels a little something like this

 

[mack341]

As someone stated earlier, George Floyd's death really may prove to be the final straw, as his murder has proved, once and for all, that all men are not created equal, particularly if you are BAME, and these protests are now far greater than the murder of one man, who simply was the catalyst.

So to casually dismiss the protests and the destruction of "some statues" as selective outrage shows a fundamental lack of insight into what is actually occurring.

You are aware of the Tony Timpa case I take it?

I don't think I was being casual at all, if the perpetrator is white and the victim is black the left have a lot of empathy, if it's the other way round not so much, or black on black again they're just not very interested. They see everything through the prism of identity politics.

That's my observation. I do think the stabbing victims deserve more attention from the left [for want of a better word] than a statue of someone from history. As in america the uk areas with the highest crime and poverty are run by liberals [either labour or the democrats], so one way or another they are failing to make a positive difference.

In our system you are always going to have people at the top and many, many more at the bottom. They will be a mix of colours and backgrounds, to then tell one section that the reason for their poverty/position is their skin colour or a slave trader 400yrs ago, is only going to stoke the fires of resentment, frustration and anger.

How are you ever going to isolate and decide you've achieved race equality in a society with wide financial and class inequality? commentators say BLM wants to destroy the capitalist system and replace it with a marxist one, I wonder why they think that is the solution, is it because marxism plays on the 'equality' angle so they're drawn to it?

 

[dionysus]

I don't think I was being casual at all, if the perpetrator is white and the victim is black the left have a lot of empathy,

fyi, there is a distinction between sympathy and empathy and its fine to be fully sympathetic to ones (peoples) plight
but yes, identity politics come into play
because, frankly, some identities are given less value and some politics are given more worth


yes, its a bloody, fucking landmine

 

[mack341]

fyi, there is a distinction between sympathy and empathy and its fine to be fully sympathetic to ones (peoples) plight
but yes, identity politics come into play
because, frankly, some identities are given less value and some politics are given more worth


yes, its a bloody, fucking landmine

You're right and maybe I should have used sympathy, my old history teacher taught me empathy was putting yourself in someone else's shoes, which in history you need to do to understand the various times.

 

[dionysus]

You're right and maybe I should have used sympathy, my old history teacher taught me empathy was putting yourself in someone else's shoes, which in history you need to do to understand the various times.

yeah, it's really only nuance and semantics


but in some cases, you TRULY cannot be empathetic

 

[Kroffe]

yes, its a bloody, fucking landmine

Edit: Nicer version

 

[dionysus]

sorry, man, that was fucking inappropriate

oh shit

 

[dionysus]

 

[Kroffe]

View attachment 135100

You dont seem to be very good at identifying stuff.
You should train more.

 

[Kroffe]

World is upside down.

Riots over the world.
People discussing politics in the nature documentary thread.
And to top it all off, a Canadian swearing.

 

[dionysus]

And to top it all off, a Canadian swearing.

my bad
that maple syrup drinking hockey playing beer swilling so and so

 

[Harry_BKK]

You are aware of the Tony Timpa case I take it?

I don't think I was being casual at all, if the perpetrator is white and the victim is black the left have a lot of empathy, if it's the other way round not so much, or black on black again they're just not very interested. They see everything through the prism of identity politics.

That's my observation. I do think the stabbing victims deserve more attention from the left [for want of a better word] than a statue of someone from history. As in america the uk areas with the highest crime and poverty are run by liberals [either labour or the democrats], so one way or another they are failing to make a positive difference.

In our system you are always going to have people at the top and many, many more at the bottom. They will be a mix of colours and backgrounds, to then tell one section that the reason for their poverty/position is their skin colour or a slave trader 400yrs ago, is only going to stoke the fires of resentment, frustration and anger.

How are you ever going to isolate and decide you've achieved race equality in a society with wide financial and class inequality? commentators say BLM wants to destroy the capitalist system and replace it with a marxist one, I wonder why they think that is the solution, is it because marxism plays on the 'equality' angle so they're drawn to it?

I find it quite pathetic and laughable at the same time how you and many other "whites" get all het up about the "left", BLM, Antifa or whatever you want to call it.

I repeat, you are free to give up your paid holidays, paid sick leave, NHS, pension, free schooling, etc etc etc if in your mind the "left" is so awful. Because without them you wouldn't have any of it. Just go back 50-100 years in your country's history to see how that worked out for the "working class" people. Just so you know, those "perks" you enjoy and take for granted are a result of similar protests as we are seeing today. I don't see you complaining about them?

As for the current situation. You are clearly missing the point. People of colour have been oppressed and suppressed for centuries. You and I have no clue whatsoever what they had and still have to endure, generation after generation.

As for "As in america the uk areas with the highest crime and poverty are run by liberals"..... Bravo! That is a truly Trumpian quote because it is a very narrow look at the situation with no regard to the developments over the last generations, the demographics etc etc. But yeah, please yourself with that thinking as much as you like, even if it's wrong.

FYI, the US states with the lowest education levels are all run by Republicans!

Shall we start a comparison race???

 

[ladyhawke]

You are aware of the Tony Timpa case I take it?

I don't think I was being casual at all, if the perpetrator is white and the victim is black the left have a lot of empathy, if it's the other way round not so much, or black on black again they're just not very interested. They see everything through the prism of identity politics.

That's my observation. I do think the stabbing victims deserve more attention from the left [for want of a better word] than a statue of someone from history. As in america the uk areas with the highest crime and poverty are run by liberals [either labour or the democrats], so one way or another they are failing to make a positive difference.

In our system you are always going to have people at the top and many, many more at the bottom. They will be a mix of colours and backgrounds, to then tell one section that the reason for their poverty/position is their skin colour or a slave trader 400yrs ago, is only going to stoke the fires of resentment, frustration and anger.

How are you ever going to isolate and decide you've achieved race equality in a society with wide financial and class inequality? commentators say BLM wants to destroy the capitalist system and replace it with a marxist one, I wonder why they think that is the solution, is it because marxism plays on the 'equality' angle so they're drawn to it?

Where to start?

1: [...] to then tell one section that the reason for their poverty/position is their skin colour or a slave trader 400yrs ago, is only going to stoke the fires of resentment, frustration and anger.

Black Americans don't have to be told. They happen to live it, almost every day. Denied access to many privileges - education, jobs, etc. - that white people take for granted.

2: ...if the perpetrator is white and the victim is black the left have a lot of empathy, if it's the other way round not so much, or black on black again they're just not very interested. They see everything through the prism of identity politics.

Everything in your eyes that is wrong with the world appears to be the fault of The Left, even though you tried to qualify it - "for want of a better word". Every side, irrespective of political leanings, has a horse in this race.

3: Tony Timpa.
I have heard of Tony Timpa - not sure why you have brought him up, unless it was to point out that there were no protests after his death because he was white?

Black Americans are at risk of some type of abuse - depending on where they live - every time they step outside their front door. On the other hand, white people enjoy a freedom that is denied to many black people, and we take it all as our due. We are not subject to the systemic violence that pervades the daily lives of black Americans.

And yes, I have read that more white people are killed in police shootings than black Americans, which obviously can be explained statistically. But also many of the "white" deaths are the direct result of violent and criminal activities, not for simply jogging down the wrong road in Georgia, or being an innocent asleep in bed in Louisville.

The point has now been reached of Enough is Enough.

@Harry_BKK explained the situation superbly: "People of colour have been oppressed and suppressed for centuries. You and I have no clue whatsoever what they had and still have to endure, generation after generation. "

4: How are you ever going to isolate and decide you've achieved race equality in a society with wide financial and class inequality? commentators say BLM wants to destroy the capitalist system and replace it with a marxist one, I wonder why they think that is the solution, is it because marxism plays on the 'equality' angle so they're drawn to it?

Even though I believe a Marxist system is unworkable and not particularly desirable, as there will always be financial inequality in any system, I certainly don't want the alternative of a Far Right political system, which would welcome a return to oppression of certain "inferior cultures", violence, ethnic cleansing, etc.

Regrettably, Trump and his supporters have a 'Far Right' mentality, which is why the USA is in the state it is at the moment.

 

[dionysus]

I'd express
but people are expressing much better than I could at this hr

 

[ladyhawke]

I'd express
but people are expressing much better than I could at this hr

You poor dear.... however I've taken pity on you and expressed for you instead...

Oh...wait...what?

 

[dionysus]

well, an espress (o), but ill take it
well past 4am here

 

[Harry_BKK]

A neat overview of Billy Bootlicker's Friday Night Massacre.

 

[mack341]

FYI, the US states with the lowest education levels are all run by Republicans!

Shall we start a comparison race?

Well they need to do a better job and I hope the voters would hold them to that. Statistics and measurements can be a good thing, to identify where things are lagging behind or not up to scratch. Why not have a comparison race? We compare everything else in life to determine what works best, e.g. schools, hospitals etc. It certainly doesn't make me get hot under the collar and agitated because it's republicans.

I welcome that kind of approach and holding elected officials and the govt who run public education to account [or on health, policing, environmental protection or any other dept]

 

[Harry_BKK]

Well they need to do a better job and I hope the voters would hold them to that. Statistics and measurements can be a good thing, to identify where things are lagging behind or not up to scratch. Why not have a comparison race? We compare everything else in life to determine what works best, e.g. schools, hospitals etc. It certainly doesn't make me get hot under the collar and agitated because it's republicans.

I welcome that kind of approach and holding elected officials and the govt who run public education to account [or on health, policing, environmental protection or any other dept]

You are completely missing the point mack. Again, I might add!