North Korea and US politics

[vorcirion]

Miller?

I think going on today's thread debate and the articles and clips I've seen so far, I'll be taking a sabbatical asap, the twists and turns are too complicated for my brain and I don't like to watch/hear the same news over and over again, it's bad enough with brexit. It's like psychological torture with the intention of wearing the resistant prisoner down so he confesses to something.

Trump of course!
And it's not complicated if you focus on facts. Trump and his allies are just trying to make things really...umm...obscure(?) so the right-wing people don't know the truth.

 

[slotplayer]

Miller?

I think going on today's thread debate and the articles and clips I've seen so far, I'll be taking a sabbatical asap, the twists and turns are too complicated for my brain and I don't like to watch/hear the same news over and over again, it's bad enough with brexit. Similar to psychological torture with the intention of wearing the resistant prisoner down so he confesses to something.

One month left for Brexit. What's happening there?

 

[Kroffe]

One month left for Brexit. What's happening there?

No wonder its quiet about brexit atm, the thread is closed.
And i just found this cool pic aswell, and now have nowhere to post it.
Oh well.

 

[mack341]

One month left for Brexit. What's happening there?

Not much on the surface, probably lot's of shenanigans in the background though. Remainer mp's meeting foreign officials behind closed doors to agree an extension no one wants, boris johnson's past indiscretions being raked over to then feed the press damaging headlines, hoping he might be replaced by an opposition leader such as corbyn and the public are ready to accept it because bojo has been naughty.

It's desperate stuff by the remainer establishment to block brexit, it goes on every day, for over three blinking years too! Even the world cup, royal babies etc..haven't been enough to keep it off the front page. The politicians have broken their word, hopefully we'll get an election and be able to remove some of them from their seats. We still have to pay the EU 250 million pounds a week to tread water like this, neither in nor out.

 

[mack341]

No wonder its quiet about brexit atm, the thread is closed.
And i just found this cool pic aswell, and now have nowhere to post it.
Oh well.

View attachment 114686

farage, rees mogg, boris, michael gove, can't work out the last one though !? is it saint theresa

 

[Kroffe]

farage, rees mogg, boris, michael gove, can't work out the last one though !? is it saint theresa

Im not sure actually.
I think its supposed to be Theresa May, but i "may" be wrong.

 

[Steviedoo]

there is a transcript that the White House released.

You do not need a smoking gun.

 

[slotplayer]

there is a transcript that the White House released.

You do not need a smoking gun.

Doubtful they would declassify and release a document that could bring them down.

 

[vorcirion]

And Trump tweeting again about jailing Adam Schiff for treason and basically threatning with civil war if he's impeached. Really helpful when his supporters aren't the most mentally stable people. If there's any kind of violence...I hope there's only one victim. That disgusting man needs to be in jail for good.

 

[Steviedoo]

Doubtful they would declassify and release a document that could bring them down.

Have you read the document.

 

[Harry_BKK]

And Trump tweeting again about jailing Adam Schiff for treason and basically threatning with civil war if he's impeached. Really helpful when his supporters aren't the most mentally stable people. If there's any kind of violence...I hope there's only one victim. That disgusting man needs to be in jail for good.

Question is not only if he will be impeached and removed from office but also who else he will drag down with him. Mr. T never goes down without throwing a lot of people around him under the bus.

- Kurt Volkert - resigned on the day the whistleblower complaint was published
- Pompano - apparently he was present on the call, in person or listening
- Pence - Mr T said the other day: "Pence had calls with Ukraine too"
- Barr - Barr is running around the world asking for investigations into the 2016 origins although he insists that Durham is leading it. Plus, Mr T quoted him on the call
- Mulvaney - he was the one who actioned the withholding of the Ukraine military monetary assistance although it was signed into law by Mr T himself months earlier. All the time they were not bothered with Ukraine corruption but suddenly started having concerns exactly a few days before the call. All coincidence?
- WH legal counsel - ordered moving the call transcripts to a separate server although they do not contain highly classified material
- Maquire- he ran first to the WH and DOJ with the whistleblower complaint instead of forwarding it to Congress as the law orders. (BTW, not the first time Mr T's administration argues that the word "shall" in the constitution or in law does not mean "shall" )
- add to the list as you see fit

As I said 2.5 years ago, it is going to be a hilarious trash WH show that is in no way different than Mr T real-life trash TV shows. And this is only the start, wait until the whistleblower actually testifies and the committees are getting the subpoenaed documents as Mr T will go into overdrive. He is already now spinning and is bound to get much more explosive as the investigations heat up.

BTW, not "Chopper Trash Talk" in the last few days. He was always so keen on peddling more lies, wonder why he doesn't do it now? Because there are maybe documents that he has to hand over which show the actual facts?

 

[Harry_BKK]

One more thing.

Mr T complained that nobody reported properly about the US-Japan trade deal which he of course hails as the deal of the century, especially for the farmers.

When you compare though TPP with his deal, you'll find out that the farmers got pretty much the same deal. So where are his so "superior deal making" skills?

In essence, just like NAFTA2 and the South-Korea he achieved very little extra other than what any good negotiator would keep as reserve to give away and get a deal over the finish line. E.g.

- for NAFTA2 he got 0.3% more in diary products that can be exported to Canada without tariffs compared to what Obama had already negotiated! An additional 0.3% - mighty negotiating skills, I bet those diary farmers are jumping for joy!
- for South-Korea he achieved an increase in the number of cars being exported to SK below the SK required safety standard but none of the car makers came even close to the current quota, ever.
- for South-Korea he achieved an extension on tariffs charged on SK truck imports to the US from 2025 up to 2040. Current truck imports from SK to the US is zero!

Geez, Mr T's deals are so awesome!

 

[Steviedoo]

@Harry_BKK do you think this will be it for trump.

I don’t think so.

This guy will not go quietly into the night.

 

[Kroffe]

I knew the "Human centipede" inspired dolls would blow some life into this thread.
Oh, and if you have not seen the movie "The human centipede", do not do that.
Its much less cute than the crocheted version above.

 

[TheAddict]

I knew the "Human centipede" inspired dolls would blow some life into this thread.
Oh, and if you have not seen the movie "The human centipede", do not do that.
Its much less cute than the crocheted version above.

Seems like you were a fan tbh, probably one of the first in line for the sequel.

 

[Kroffe]

Seems like you were a fan tbh, probably one of the first in line for the sequel.

View attachment 114691

Being first in line is not such a bad thing when it comes to Human centipedes.

 

[Harry_BKK]

@Harry_BKK do you think this will be it for trump.

I don’t think so.

This guy will not go quietly into the night.

If it is only what we know now, there is no way the senate is going ahead. And Mr T's allies will run amok spreading misinformation and trying to discredit anything and anyone.

I am convinced though we have seen not even the tip of the iceberg. I mean this is how this conman has been operating all his life, so to think that it was all just single "slip of the tongue" moment is nigh on impossible. One key will be what other cases the whistleblower will tell in the testimony.

Plus, I don't know as I haven't bothered to check. Does a committee doing an impeachment enquiry have the legal right to access those super-super secret servers? I think they have some extra legal authority. If yes, I am 100% sure they will find much more incriminating documents, such as the translator notes Mr T ripped out of the hands of the translator after his 1-on-1 tête-à-tête with Putin.

Fact is, for the braggart and bully that Mr T has been all his life, he always had his tail pretty quickly between his legs and settled out of court in 100s of cases where things didn't look good for him. So, I expect something similar should things go south now although this time money and NDAs will not come to the rescue.

Either way, it is going to be a Mr T reality show par excellence, maybe his Grande Finale! Time will tell.

 

[slotplayer]

Have you read the document.

I read a few pages of the whistleblower document on the CNN site.

 

[slotplayer]

My guess is it fizzles just like the Mueller report and his testimony.

 

[Harry_BKK]

My guess is it fizzles just like the Mueller report and his testimony.

Russia and Mueller fizzled out on the surface because Mr T and the WH are blocking any testimony and document requests, not because there is no interest to pursue the matters Mueller highlighted in the report.

 

[Harry_BKK]

The last few days Mr T and all his sycophants peddled the "fantasy" that the whistleblower complaint was not based on first-hand knowledge and thus inaccessible. Plus, that the rules/complaint form were changed out of a sudden in Aug 2019.

Well, the IG just called them all what they are: Liars!

Key sentence: "The complainant ticked the box: I have personal and/or direct knowledge....". Plus, he reiterated that first-hand knowledge is actually not required to submit a complaint.

All Mr T lackeys including Jimmy Jordan were adamant that the complaint form was changed for nefarious reasons by some "deep-state" operatives. The IG says clearly, the form used by the whistleblower is the one that was issued in May 2018.

You can read the IG's statement here: https%3A//www.dni.gov/files/ICIG/Documents/News/ICIG%20News/2019/September%2030%20-%20Statement%20on%20Processing%20of%20Whistleblower%20Complaints/ICIG%20Statement%20on%20Processing%20of%20Whistleblower%20Complaints.pdf']IG Statement 30 Sept 2019[/URL]

Question is now, what other lies Mr T and his brown-nosers will come up with?

It is absolutely laughable that "Leningrad" Lindsey, "Gym" Jordan and Co are taking information from right-wing conspiracy theory sites and are trying to peddle them as facts, e.g. that the complaint form was changed was first mentioned on The Federalist site. They have access to all kinds of information sources and in such a serious matter as an impeachment inquiry, they rely on conspiracies! Shows you that they either have very little to defend the actions of Mr T or that they are simply too stupid to doublecheck the information.

 

[mack341]

Leningrad Lindsey I must admit Harry that did give me a chuckle, moscow mitch is probably keeping him company right now lol

It was fascinating reading your ruminations on the possibilities even if I see things a bit differently.

I think people accept that politicians aren't perfect in all regards but as long as it doesn't interfere with them doing a good job for the country, will let some stuff go, I think this is likely to fit into that category for many republican voters. They would rather it hadn't happened, but overall if they feel the country is improving, I can't see them calling for him to be removed from office. Ditto the republican senators.

I did say a while back that pence is under used by donald, I think he should listen to pence more, who seems like a strait-laced guy and I doubt he'd advised donald to go down this rash route.

An upside in my mind is there is unlikely to be a new war in the middle east, if Trump had wanted to go down that route [which I personally doubted myself] it must be nigh on impossible on the back of this impeachment process now taking place.

There was discussion that pelosi was always against an impeachment because it can damage the dems as well, and it's going to increase the political division amongst people in the country, and at the end of it, if Trump is still sat there, a massive feeling of frustration and waste of effort.

In a way the dems must feel they can't win the 2020 election, because if they did donald would be leaving in 2020 regardless, and they could save the country this impeachment debacle/soap opera and the further social division/tensions it will cause.

 

[slotplayer]

I guess Steve Hilton is a little fired up.

Sep 30, 2019

 

[Steviedoo]

Full transcript of phone call with Ukraine has not been released.

I imagine that if the transcript they released is incriminating the one they’re keeping under wraps must be worse.

 

[Steviedoo]

But sure ..hunter biden

Cadre, a real estate startup partly-owned by Jared Kushner, is seeking an investment of at least $100 million from a private fund backed by Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates.

 

[Steviedoo]

And Trump just asked on camera for China and Ukraine to investigate the Bidens.

The man is an idiot.

 

[Harry_BKK]

And Trump just asked on camera for China and Ukraine to investigate the Bidens.

The man is an idiot.

The two pressers with the Finnish president yesterday were a preview as to what we can expect from Mr T in the next weeks/months.

It will get much worse. I've never heard a president/chancellor/prime minister using swearwords in his/her official capacity. Mr T just broke that very low bar for decency as well.

 

[slotplayer]

Stock up on some Rif Mountain imports because its going to be a GOP slaughter.

 

[Steviedoo]

Stock up on some Rif Mountain imports because its going to be a GOP slaughter.

What do you mean?

 

[slotplayer]

What do you mean?

A little attempt at subtle humor.

According to a documentary I watched some time ago Rif Mountain is known for producing hashish.

 

[mack341]

Looked up Kurt Volker the other day and apparently he was a big friend of John Mccain, so there is a good chance he was/is a foe of Donald Trump.

I haven't yet caught up with the today's events, but I hope in a non-partisan way that biden's son is a strong enough character to cope with all this coverage. It could turn somebody into a recluse, as regardless of the rights and wrongs, he'll likely be shunned from both sides. There must be terrific psychological stress happening right now.

He looks a bit fragile to me in the pics I've seen, living in the shadow of his father all the time; I don't know much about joe biden other than seeing clips of him speaking, the word 'hubris' does spring to mind but I'm not certain that is fair and probably applicable to 90% of politicians in any case.

 

[Harry_BKK]

And Trump just asked on camera for China and Ukraine to investigate the Bidens.

The man is an idiot.

What I think should be more troubling for all Americans is a president insisting on every occasion: "I have the absolute right...". That is the language of a despot not a president of a republic.

 

[Kroffe]

What I think should be more troubling for all Americans is a president insisting on every occasion: "I have the absolute right...". That is the language of a despot not a president of a republic.

Harry, if he says he has the absolute right, he probably does.
Nobody knows more about being president than Trump!

 

[Kroffe]

Its all a part of his morning routine.
Wakes up, stands in front of the mirror and points at himself.

- Nobody knows politic better than you
- Nobody has better hair than you do
- Melania get the f*ck out of the way, you know you are not allowed in here while i do my thing.
- Nobody respects women more than you
- Nobody knows more about no collusion than you
- Nobodys penis resembles a cheeto more than your does
- Go get em tiger!!

 

[Harry_BKK]

Looked up Kurt Volker the other day and apparently he was a big friend of John Mccain, so there is a good chance he was/is a foe of Donald Trump.

I haven't yet caught up with the today's events, but I hope in a non-partisan way that biden's son is a strong enough character to cope with all this coverage. It could turn somebody into a recluse, as regardless of the rights and wrongs, he'll likely be shunned from both sides. There must be terrific psychological stress happening right now.

He looks a bit fragile to me in the pics I've seen, living in the shadow of his father all the time; I don't know much about joe biden other than seeing clips of him speaking, the word 'hubris' does spring to mind but I'm not certain that is fair and probably applicable to 90% of politicians in any case.

@mack341

A 2016 letter from the Senate Ukraine Caucus has been uncovered where Republican and Democrat senators told the Ukrainian president: "We similarly urge you to press ahead with urgent reforms to the Prosecutor General's office and judiciary. The unanimous adoption by the Cabinet of Ministers of the Basic Principles and Action Plan is a good step."

Exactly the same what Biden asked in accordance with and on behalf of World Bank, IMF, US, EU, etc. Four days after the letter the corrupt prosecutor general called Shokin resigned/was fired.

So that conspiracy theory is clearly debunked as the letter shows that Biden's action was supported by both parties. It is really funny to read how the three Republican senators in question "weasel" around now with "I can't remember" and other stupid excuses. Especially since the letter is on their websites.

Here's the full letter:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Ron Johnson's (Republican senator from Wisconsin) in an interview after he "took time to remember that he signed the said letter": "The whole world, by the way, including the Ukranian caucus, which I signed the letter, the whole world felt that this Sholkin wasn't doing a good enough job. So we were saying hey you've ... got to rid yourself of corruption."

So this prosecutor wasn't doing his job properly, basically he was slow-walking or stalling among others the Burisma investigation. If Biden Jr would have done something unlawful or profited from being Biden's son then a new prosecutor would have been actually worse for Biden Jr as he might have accelerated the investigation of Burisma. So for Biden Sr to ask for the removal of Shokin would not make any sense whatsoever if he was trying to cover something up.

But this is the nonsense Mr T and his sycophants are peddling to the people.

Overall, I can't see why Biden Jr or Biden himself should be under "terrific psychological stress" as you put it. BTW, Biden Jr was one of 24 foreigners that were employed on the board of Burisma, most of the others had no experience in energy companies either.

 

[mack341]

@mack341

A 2016 letter from the Senate Ukraine Caucus has been uncovered where Republican and Democrat senators told the Ukrainian president: "We similarly urge you to press ahead with urgent reforms to the Prosecutor General's office and judiciary. The unanimous adoption by the Cabinet of Ministers of the Basic Principles and Action Plan is a good step."

Exactly the same what Biden asked in accordance with and on behalf of World Bank, IMF, US, EU, etc. Four days after the letter the corrupt prosecutor general called Shokin resigned/was fired.

So that conspiracy theory is clearly debunked as the letter shows that Biden's action was supported by both parties. It is really funny to read how the three Republican senators in question "weasel" around now with "I can't remember" and other stupid excuses. Especially since the letter is on their websites.

Here's the full letter:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Ron Johnson's (Republican senator from Wisconsin) in an interview after he "took time to remember that he signed the said letter": "The whole world, by the way, including the Ukranian caucus, which I signed the letter, the whole world felt that this Sholkin wasn't doing a good enough job. So we were saying hey you've ... got to rid yourself of corruption."

So this prosecutor wasn't doing his job properly, basically he was slow-walking or stalling among others the Burisma investigation. If Biden Jr would have done something unlawful or profited from being Biden's son then a new prosecutor would have been actually worse for Biden Jr as he might have accelerated the investigation of Burisma. So for Biden Sr to ask for the removal of Shokin would not make any sense whatsoever if he was trying to cover something up.

But this is the nonsense Mr T and his sycophants are peddling to the people.

Overall, I can't see why Biden Jr or Biden himself should be under "terrific psychological stress" as you put it. BTW, Biden Jr was one of 24 foreigners that were employed on the board of Burisma, most of the others had no experience in energy companies either.

You don't think he'd be under a lot of stress at the moment? [Not biden senior he's probably got skin as thick as a crocodile by now]

I did say regardless of the rights or wrongs and not 'he should be under a lot of stress' due to x,y,z.

Shokin in a witness statement for a court case in austria did say his appointment was approved by a majority vote of their parliament, and he'd already served in public office previously for years, and was appointed by poroshenko, the west's man.

You've quoted the IMF, world bank, EU etc.. I don't really have a great deal of respect for these institutions but if there were specific, serious reasons Shokin had to go, could they have not also withheld funding/help to the ukraine on that basis?

Giuliani has said, upon visiting Shokin in the ukraine, that he doesn't appear to have the trappings that normally go with being a corrupt govt official, only having a small house and driving an old car, but I accept he may have needed removing for corruption, there hasn't, as far as I can tell, been enough flesh put on the bones of these allegations.

"...If Biden Jr would have done something unlawful or profited from being Biden's son then a new prosecutor would have been actually worse for Biden Jr as he might have accelerated the investigation of Burisma. So for Biden Sr to ask for the removal of Shokin would not make any sense whatsoever if he was trying to cover something up."

What happened to the Burisma investigation when shokin's replacement took over? Does anybody know?

 

[Harry_BKK]

You don't think he'd be under a lot of stress at the moment? [Not biden senior he's probably got skin as thick as a crocodile by now]

I did say regardless of the rights or wrongs and not 'he should be under a lot of stress' due to x,y,z.

Shokin in a witness statement for a court case in austria did say his appointment was voted in by a majority of their parliament, and he'd already served in public office previously for years, and was appointed by poroshenko, the west's man.

You've quoted the IMF, world bank, EU etc.. I don't really have a great deal of respect for these institutions but if there were specific, serious reasons Shokin had to go, could they have not also withheld funding/help to the ukraine on that basis?

Giuliani has said, upon visiting Shokin in the ukraine, that he doesn't appear to have the trappings that normally go with being a corrupt govt official, only having a small house and driving an old car, but I accept he may have needed removing for corruption, there hasn't as far as I can tell been enough flesh put on the bones of these allegations.

"...If Biden Jr would have done something unlawful or profited from being Biden's son then a new prosecutor would have been actually worse for Biden Jr as he might have accelerated the investigation of Burisma. So for Biden Sr to ask for the removal of Shokin would not make any sense whatsoever if he was trying to cover something up."

What happened to the Burisma investigation when shokin's replacement took over? Does anybody know?

The Burisma investigation was dormant since 2014 and AFAIK not taken up again.

Biden Jr started working for them in 2016.

Maybe I can give you a little context about Ukraine as I spent lots of time there, just a rough overview though. The country is controlled by two factions, Ukrainian oligarchs and Ukranian-Russian oligarchs. These people made unbelievable amounts of money after 1990 when the "country silver" was sold off like candy for small change. They became billionaires within a few years.

However, none of that would have been possible without corrupt politicians, government officials, police, prosecutors etc., you name it. Everyone was trying to get his/her piece of the pie. Poroshenko promised to deal with the corruption after Yanukovich (Ukranian-Russian) was basically driven from office but he was himself one of the rich oligarchs (Ukrainian).

So not much happened with the corruption investigations but Poroshenko was pro-Europe. The EU after proposing an association agreement was prepared to provide financial support for the country but made it dependent on the corruption cases. That is where Shokin as prosecutor general was seen as not doing enough.

They increased the pressure together with IMF, WB, USA etc and in 2016 Shokin was finally let go.

 

[mack341]

The Burisma investigation was dormant since 2014 and AFAIK not taken up again.

Biden Jr started working for them in 2016.

Maybe I can give you a little context about Ukraine as I spent lots of time there, just a rough overview though. The country is controlled by two factions, Ukrainian oligarchs and Ukranian-Russian oligarchs. These people made unbelievable amounts of money after 1990 when the "country silver" was sold off like candy for small change. They became billionaires within a few years.

However, none of that would have been possible without corrupt politicians, government officials, police, prosecutors etc., you name it. Everyone was trying to get his/her piece of the pie. Poroshenko promised to deal with the corruption after Yanukovich (Ukranian-Russian) was basically driven from office but he was himself one of the rich oligarchs (Ukrainian).

So not much happened with the corruption investigations but Poroshenko was pro-Europe. The EU after proposing an association agreement was prepared to provide financial support for the country but made it dependent on the corruption cases. That is where Shokin as prosecutor general was seen as not doing enough.

They increased the pressure together with IMF, WB, USA etc and in 2016 Shokin was finally let go.

By the sounds of it, you'd need big cahonies to be an effective prosecutor in the ukraine, maybe an impossible job for anyone to do as your life would probably be in constant danger if you tried to prosecute powerful individuals involved in corruption. Be interesting to know if the subsequent prosecutors have been better than Shokin in this regard and the ukraine has now got a clean bill of health to the EU, IMF's satisfaction etc...

I think Trump is more interested in finding out about the ukrainian connections to the 2016 russian collusion investigation than about biden jr, that's been the focus of the reporting as it's easier to frame donald on that, however requesting the ukrainians reveal what they know about the 2016 election interference, is not such a damning charge, to the contrary, many would support it.

 

[Harry_BKK]

By the sounds of it, you'd need big cahonies to be an effective prosecutor in the ukraine, maybe an impossible job for anyone to do as your life would probably be in constant danger if you tried to prosecute powerful individuals involved in corruption. Be interesting to know if the subsequent prosecutors have been better than Shokin in this regard and the ukraine has now got a clean bill of health to the EU, IMF's satisfaction etc...

I think Trump is more interested in finding out about the ukrainian connections to the 2016 russian collusion investigation than about biden jr, that's been the focus of the reporting as it's easier to frame donald on that, however requesting the ukrainians reveal what they know about the 2016 election interference, is not such a damning charge, to the contrary, many would support it.

Well, the next one called Lutsenko wasn't much better and he's been replaced after Zelensky became the new president in April 2019.

Both Lutsenko and Shokin fed Rudy and other characters the narrative that there is a "there there" with regards to Biden/Biden Jr and the 2016 election/Crowdstrike. They both walked back their statements since.

Lutsenko knew he would be replaced so he tried to curry favour with the US and make himself an "important to keep" figure for the new president.

Mr T is paranoid about his legitimacy and of course about staying in power. He knows perfectly well that he will have more than a dozen court cases waiting for him if he leaves office in 2021 but not if he stays until 2025 as many will hit the statute of limitation.

What is Ukraine supposed to have done in the 2016 election? The US was/is their alley and would have stayed come Hillary or Mr T.

Mr T is fixated because one of the founders of Crowdstrike was born in Ukraine but became a US citizen a long time ago.

IMO, he is much more interested in getting dirt on Biden as it looks like he will be facing him in the election. Eliminating Biden would probably see him facing Warren, much easier in his view to beat as she has a much more progressive agenda than Biden. He can then trumpet about "socialism" to scare the voters and will not have to present real plans for healthcare, infrastructure, climate change etc.

Will be fun to watch if Mr T and Biden will face each other. Two pensioners from the "stone age" fighting for the presidency.

EDIT: "By the sounds of it, you'd need big cahonies to be an effective prosecutor in the Ukraine"

The one that showed courage ended up in prison on a phoney conviction. She came third this year in the election.

 

[Steviedoo]

And now there are text messages that have been provided by Volker that shows the qui pro quo

Well I’m sure the defenders of Trump will have some objections to the text msgs as we all know emails and text messages are only important when we are talking about the dems.

 

[mack341]

Well, the next one called Lutsenko wasn't much better and he's been replaced after Zelensky became the new president in April 2019.

Both Lutsenko and Shokin fed Rudy and other characters the narrative that there is a "there there" with regards to Biden/Biden Jr and the 2016 election/Crowdstrike. They both walked back their statements since.

Lutsenko knew he would be replaced so he tried to curry favour with the US and make himself an "important to keep" figure for the new president.

Mr T is paranoid about his legitimacy and of course about staying in power. He knows perfectly well that he will have more than a dozen court cases waiting for him if he leaves office in 2021 but not if he stays until 2025 as many will hit the statute of limitation.

What is Ukraine supposed to have done in the 2016 election? The US was/is their alley and would have stayed come Hillary or Mr T.

Mr T is fixated because one of the founders of Crowdstrike was born in Ukraine but became a US citizen a long time ago.

IMO, he is much more interested in getting dirt on Biden as it looks like he will be facing him in the election. Eliminating Biden would probably see him facing Warren, much easier in his view to beat as she has a much more progressive agenda than Biden. He can then trumpet about "socialism" to scare the voters and will not have to present real plans for healthcare, infrastructure, climate change etc.

Will be fun to watch if Mr T and Biden will face each other. Two pensioners from the "stone age" fighting for the presidency.

EDIT: "By the sounds of it, you'd need big cahonies to be an effective prosecutor in the Ukraine"

The one that showed courage ended up in prison on a phoney conviction. She came third this year in the election.

I'm not entirely sure what the ukraine's involvement was in the 2016 election stuff, I thought there were some 'entrapment' activities involving manafort and others maybe.

I don't think it's the ukrainian govt per se but likely some of those corrupt billionaires and oligarchs that you mentioned in post#3936 above. I've not followed all the ins and outs of the 2016 collusion story/events, reading war and peace would require less effort

I start from the position of not trusting the msm articles I read or at least spotting the inferences that are laid on so thickly, spelling out the writers conclusions for how the reader should interpret events. The BBC's website is shocking in this regard, so partisan on a matter involving another country's internal affairs, like they've got something riding on the outcome. Unable to report things in neutral language, it's pathetic, and yet they'll bend over backwards to defend somebody like blair, they've become nothing more than the uk version of pravda for a liberal elite.

If there is nothing there, trump's aides are wasting their time looking, but something must have happened in the ukraine to attract their attention in the 1st place; I can't disagree about trump's intention to ferret damaging information regarding the bidens, to use later in the election debates possibly, maybe Joe could've had a chance, probably would have polled better than Hillary. Yeah it would be a sight, seeing these two geriatric dinosaurs fighting to be the most powerful politician/leader on earth ...I wonder if there'll ever be a female republican leader up against a female democrat...some think hillary is itching for one more chance, a rematch against trump?

The cronyism and nepotism stuff goes on all the time in life, not just politics, it's a part of networking. Trump's doing it with his daughter and son-in-law, normally it's within countries. outside like this situation, in a country with corruption issues, raises a bit more natural concern.

But Biden couldn't protect burisma if other bodies were going after them, he wasn't all powerful, he was just a conduit of power. Probably they just wanted his distinctive name on their board, to try to get an image of respectability and
propriety going.

 

[mack341]

And now there are text messages that have been provided by Volker that shows the qui pro quo

Well I’m sure the defenders of Trump will have some objections to the text msgs as we all know emails and text messages are only important when we are talking about the dems.

Well let's say the ukraine got their 'quid' as they did receive the military aid, where's trump's 'quo', what did he actually get in return in tangible terms? ukraine's help and co-operation with investigators? secret info about burisma or 2016?

I'll be interested to know what he got as part of the deal, if he has been so crooked and dangerous.

 

[vorcirion]

Well let's say the ukraine got their 'quid' as they did receive the military aid, where's trump's 'quo', what did he actually get in return in tangible terms? ukraine's help and co-operation with investigators? secret info about burisma or 2016?

I'll be interested to know what he got as part of the deal, if he has been so crooked and dangerous.

All that. Then Trump can say that Ukraine is investigating Biden for corruption and that sounds criminal ---> helps Trump and his campaign. I guess it's republican strategy really....just investigate everyone. Make everyone sound criminal and in the end they find nothing wrong anyway. But enough damage has been done to help the republicans politically.

 

[vorcirion]

Well let's say the ukraine got their 'quid' as they did receive the military aid, where's trump's 'quo', what did he actually get in return in tangible terms? ukraine's help and co-operation with investigators? secret info about burisma or 2016?

I'll be interested to know what he got as part of the deal, if he has been so crooked and dangerous.

Don't you see anything wrong in that Trump is using US government's power to threat Ukraine to help his own presidential campaign? Trump is supposed to do what's good for the americans. Not what's good for him personally.
Now he's doing similar things openly with China.

 

[mack341]

After scrolling through about 60 anti trump results on google I came across this:

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Ukraine Tried to Tip the Election in Clinton’s Favor. Evidence reveals that Ukraine intervened to tilt the election in favor of its national interests

Yesterday, Politico reported that the Ukrainian Government worked to aid Hillary Clinton during the 2016 presidential elections. The actions taken by government officials included disseminating “documents implicating a top Trump aide in corruption and suggested they were investigating the matter, only to back away after the election. And they helped Clinton’s allies research damaging information on Trump and his advisers.”

Those documents implicated Trump’s former campaign manager, Paul Manafort, who worked as an adviser for now-ousted Ukrainian President Viktor F. Yanukovych. However, the concerns that the documents raised weren’t in fact over any quasi-Russian ties, though partisan reporting pushed this narrative. Rather, the documents raised the question of whether Manafort declared the income that he had received from the position. The Podesta Group, a lobbying firm co-founded by Clinton Campaign Chair John Podesta, also conducted work for Yanukovych. However, the Manafort narrative not only painted Trump as pro-Russian, but also provided the Clinton campaign with a smear campaign while reaffirming its stance against Russia. It was in Ukraine’s best interest to tilt the election in support of Clinton, who strongly advocated for providing Ukraine with military aid and financial support in order to fight Russian separatists in the country.

Politico noted that Alexandra Chalupa, a Ukrainian-American working as a consultant for the Democratic National Committee (DNC), met with top Ukrainian Officials in Washington D.C. about forcing Manafort’s resignation in order to perpetuate the narrative that Trump is connected to Russia. Both Chalupa and her sister Andrea have strongly pushed the anti-Russian narrative on social media, in addition to advocating that the electors of the electoral college defect from Trump. The report added, “Politico’s investigation found evidence of Ukrainian government involvement in the race that appears to strain diplomatic protocol dictating that governments refrain from engaging in one another’s elections.”

In addition to the Chalupas, the co-founder and CTO of Crowdstrike, the cyber security firm that the DNC hired to investigate the alleged hacks, Dmitri Alperovitch, also serves as a senior fellow to the Washington-based think tank Atlantic Council, which is an openly anti-Russian organization partly . The Atlantic Council is funded by Ukrainian oligarch Victor Pinchuk, who also happens to be one of the most prolific donors to the Clinton Foundation. The DNC denied multiple requests from the FBI to access their servers, effectively forcing the FBI to rely on CrowdStrike’s assessment of the hacks

The Atlantic Council has propagated anti-Russian sentiment and advocated for bolstering NATO forces in anticipation of a military conflict between with Russia long before Wikileaks released emails from the DNC and Clinton Campaign Manager John Podesta. In 2013, the Atlantic Council awarded Hillary Clinton its Distinguished International Leadership Award. In 2014, the Atlantic Council hosted one of several events with former Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk, who took over after pro-Russian President Viktor Yanukovych was removed in early 2014. In August, Politico reported that Donald Trump’s favorable rhetoric to Russia was concerning Ukraine. The article stated, “Russia wants Trump for U.S. president; Ukraine is terrified by Trump and prefers Hillary Clinton.”

While past elections in Ukraine have been viewed as proxy battles between the U.S. and Russia, it appears that the 2016 presidential election in the U.S. faced similar influence from two foreign countries attempting to influence an election outcome preferable to their own national interests."

I copied and pasted the whole article other than 1 long paragraph about pinchuk. I think it is a balanced article and shows there are always two sides to a story and politics at this level is complicated and machiavelian when the stakes are high. In 2016 on the democratic side, anti russia and anti trump, you have the govt agencies like the CIA and FBI etc.. and media.

So if you believed the official msm narrative 100% after the election, you'd have to discount or takeaway all the other times the govt and the media have lied and pushed falsehoods to protect and further their agenda/actions. That's a leap too far for me, I no longer feel the msm is a credible source of unbiased news/opinion that I can trust 100%. It's easy to go along with the tide of opinion but I feel I'm being hoodwinked and led rather than informed.

That's not to say I believe trump or the republican side is beyond reproach. Same in the uk with the tories, you've got to watch them like a hawk as well, if they can get one over the population given half a chance they will try.

 

[vorcirion]

After scrolling through about 60 anti trump results on google I came across this:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Ukraine Tried to Tip the Election in Clinton’s Favor. Evidence reveals that Ukraine intervened to tilt the election in favor of its national interests

Yesterday, Politico reported that the Ukrainian Government worked to aid Hillary Clinton during the 2016 presidential elections. The actions taken by government officials included disseminating “documents implicating a top Trump aide in corruption and suggested they were investigating the matter, only to back away after the election. And they helped Clinton’s allies research damaging information on Trump and his advisers.”

Those documents implicated Trump’s former campaign manager, Paul Manafort, who worked as an adviser for now-ousted Ukrainian President Viktor F. Yanukovych. However, the concerns that the documents raised weren’t in fact over any quasi-Russian ties, though partisan reporting pushed this narrative. Rather, the documents raised the question of whether Manafort declared the income that he had received from the position. The Podesta Group, a lobbying firm co-founded by Clinton Campaign Chair John Podesta, also conducted work for Yanukovych. However, the Manafort narrative not only painted Trump as pro-Russian, but also provided the Clinton campaign with a smear campaign while reaffirming its stance against Russia. It was in Ukraine’s best interest to tilt the election in support of Clinton, who strongly advocated for providing Ukraine with military aid and financial support in order to fight Russian separatists in the country.

Politico noted that Alexandra Chalupa, a Ukrainian-American working as a consultant for the Democratic National Committee (DNC), met with top Ukrainian Officials in Washington D.C. about forcing Manafort’s resignation in order to perpetuate the narrative that Trump is connected to Russia. Both Chalupa and her sister Andrea have strongly pushed the anti-Russian narrative on social media, in addition to advocating that the electors of the electoral college defect from Trump. The report added, “Politico’s investigation found evidence of Ukrainian government involvement in the race that appears to strain diplomatic protocol dictating that governments refrain from engaging in one another’s elections.”

In addition to the Chalupas, the co-founder and CTO of Crowdstrike, the cyber security firm that the DNC hired to investigate the alleged hacks, Dmitri Alperovitch, also serves as a senior fellow to the Washington-based think tank Atlantic Council, which is an openly anti-Russian organization partly . The Atlantic Council is funded by Ukrainian oligarch Victor Pinchuk, who also happens to be one of the most prolific donors to the Clinton Foundation. The DNC denied multiple requests from the FBI to access their servers, effectively forcing the FBI to rely on CrowdStrike’s assessment of the hacks

The Atlantic Council has propagated anti-Russian sentiment and advocated for bolstering NATO forces in anticipation of a military conflict between with Russia long before Wikileaks released emails from the DNC and Clinton Campaign Manager John Podesta. In 2013, the Atlantic Council awarded Hillary Clinton its Distinguished International Leadership Award. In 2014, the Atlantic Council hosted one of several events with former Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk, who took over after pro-Russian President Viktor Yanukovych was removed in early 2014. In August, Politico reported that Donald Trump’s favorable rhetoric to Russia was concerning Ukraine. The article stated, “Russia wants Trump for U.S. president; Ukraine is terrified by Trump and prefers Hillary Clinton.”

While past elections in Ukraine have been viewed as proxy battles between the U.S. and Russia, it appears that the 2016 presidential election in the U.S. faced similar influence from two foreign countries attempting to influence an election outcome preferable to their own national interests."

I copied and pasted the whole article other than 1 long paragraph about pinchuk. I think it is a balanced article and shows there are always two sides to a story and politics at this level is complicated and machiavelian when the stakes are high. In 2016 on the democratic side, anti russia and anti trump, you have the govt agencies like the CIA and FBI etc.. and media.

So if you believed the official msm narrative 100% after the election, you'd have to discount or takeaway all the other times the govt and the media have lied and pushed falsehoods to protect and further their agenda/actions. That's a leap too far for me, I no longer feel the msm is a credible source of unbiased news/opinion that I can trust 100%. It's easy to go along with the tide of opinion but I feel I'm being hoodwinked and led rather than informed.

That's not to say I believe trump or the republican side is beyond reproach. Same in the uk with the tories, you've got to watch them like a hawk as well, if they can get one over the population given half a chance they will try.

"It's easy to go along with the tide of opinion but I feel I'm being hoodwinked and led rather than informed." Tucker *cough, cough*.

And of course ukrainians would prefer anyone else than the one who is pro-Russia. Russia is attacking Ukraine, killing their citizens and seizing their land. Besides Manafort is a convicted criminal already.
But the question is what the americans do. Is there some criminal behaviour? You love to go back to Clintons and back to 2016. Republicans haven't been able to find any wrongdoing by Hillary.
Trump is the president now and the year is 2019. You should focus on him since he has all the power and he's using US's government for his own purposes. Gather the facts and think.

 

[mack341]

"It's easy to go along with the tide of opinion but I feel I'm being hoodwinked and led rather than informed." Tucker *cough, cough*.

And of course ukrainians would prefer anyone else than the one who is pro-Russia. Russia is attacking Ukraine, killing their citizens and seizing their land. Besides Manafort is a convicted criminal already.
But the question is what the americans do. Is there some criminal behaviour? You love to go back to Clintons and back to 2016. Republicans haven't been able to find any wrongdoing by Hillary.
Trump is the president now and the year is 2019. You should focus on him since he has all the power and he's using US's government for his own purposes. Gather the facts and think.

Haha Good spot, but as I said I do like to hear both sides of a story. On american news, fox is the only major channel I can find giving an alternative opinion, imagine if that scenario was reversed and there was only 1 channel promoting the liberal viewpoint, everything else was right or far right, you would feel the media was biased just by the sheer aggregate.

I don't sit there pumping my fist, whooping MAGA, Go Tucker! Go Trump! but tucker calls out a lot of the washington establishment mindset, so he is a bit of a truth teller of our times. [and the hypocrisy/dangers of silicon valley tech, big corp culture etc..]

I'm not really that interested in clinton and 2016, I posted that article to show possibly why the ukraine was on trump's radar, there obviously is a back story, with more machinations than the msm write/talk about, they want to keep it nice and simple, Trump = very bad man, we must remove. rinse and repeat 24/7.

BTW there are no tv channels in the uk with a conservative viewpoint that I know of, and the bbc, channel 4, itv are becoming more like cnn in terms of bias, i.e. blatant. I think it's a disservice to the audience, taking them for fools who'll swallow anything, but then the ratings are going down, so there is hope.

 

[vorcirion]

Haha Good spot, but as I said I do like to hear both sides of a story. On american news, fox is the only major channel I can find giving an alternative opinion, imagine if that scenario was reversed and there was only 1 channel promoting the liberal viewpoint, everything else was right or far right, you would feel the media was biased just by the sheer aggregate.

I don't sit there pumping my fist, whooping MAGA, Go Tucker! Go Trump! but tucker calls out a lot of the washington establishment mindset, so he is a bit of a truth teller of our times. [and the hypocrisy/dangers of silicon valley tech, big corp culture etc..]

I'm not really that interested in clinton and 2016, I posted that article to show possibly why the ukraine was on trump's radar, there obviously is a back story, with more machinations than the msm write/talk about, they want to keep it nice and simple, Trump = very bad man, we must remove. rinse and repeat 24/7.

BTW there are no tv channels in the uk with a conservative viewpoint that I know of, and the bbc, channel 4, itv are becoming more like cnn in terms of bias, i.e. blatant. I think it's a disservice to the audience, taking them for fools who'll swallow anything, but then the ratings are going down, so there is hope.

I think you're just so against msm that you start ignoring the facts they bring out. Fox doesn't even bother talking about the facts. I doubt Tucker makes any kind of judgement about Trump's behaviour or does he?

 

[mack341]

I think you're just so against msm that you start ignoring the facts they bring out. Fox doesn't even bother talking about the facts. I doubt Tucker makes any kind of judgement about Trump's behaviour or does he?

I think he has been critical of trump's tweeting habits, I may have imagined that but I'm sure he said he'd prefer it if trump didn't tweet daily etc..

When I've got time and suitable examples, I'll paste some bias writing up and highlight how they ladle on their emphasis, and ignore counter points.

Years ago, in the 80's and 90's there was a distance between british tv news programmes and the politics they were covering, now there is much less distance to the point of becoming cheerleaders for particular viewpoints/policies, it's been a gradual change but is extremely noticeable now. The bbc is meant to be impartial, but it's a joke on matters like trump and brexit, anything that doesn't conform to their elite liberal agenda basically is trashed as often as possible.

 

[vorcirion]

I think he has been critical of trump's tweeting habits, I may have imagined that but I'm sure he said he'd prefer it if trump didn't tweet daily etc..

When I've got time and suitable examples, I'll paste some bias writing up and highlight how they ladle on their emphasis, and ignore counter points.

Years ago, in the 80's and 90's there was a distance between british tv news programmes and the politics they were covering, now there is much less distance to the point of becoming cheerleaders for particular viewpoints/policies, it's been a gradual change but is extremely noticeable now. The bbc is meant to be impartial, but it's a joke on matters like trump and brexit, anything that doesn't conform to their elite liberal agenda basically is trashed as often as possible.

Would think he'd have an opinion if Trump's asking for help from Ukraine is a crime or not. I'd like to hear your opinion about it too!