North Korea and US politics

[mack341]

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Thanks Harry, for such a serious part of the events it never got the coverage it should have [ just a note, the express use to be a near equal to the daily mail in terms of the newspaper edition but then got bought out by a porn publisher, desmond something, and kind of gone a bit maverick these days.] Obviously the sun is murdoch owned so linked also to fox tv, therefore this p8 plane story should've been in all their tv coverage to show folk what was potentially happening here. It's worrying that it wasn't mentioned as I think the warhawks could've been up to skulduggery and been prepared to sacrifice the 30-35 crew members in order to get their war.

The irony of that headline is the USA shot down an iranian airliner with a cruise missile by 'mistake' in 1988, killing all 290 people onboard, a terrible event...I wish the US and Iran could come to some sort of agreement to normalise relations but it seems unlikely atm. Tearing up an agreement that took years of diplomacy set a really poor precedent.

Interesting that map of air and military bases, can the USA really justify the continued financial cost of all this when it's so heavily in debt, is it in the US's national interest? I doubt it'll be ever debated seriously by either party, some politicians like rand paul and tulsi gabbard would probably be in favour of rowing back some of the bases, but they're largely marginalised by the msm rather than promoted.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Thanks Harry, for such a serious part of the events it never got the coverage it should have [ just a note, the express use to be a near equal to the daily mail in terms of the newspaper edition but then got bought out by a porn publisher, desmond something, and kind of gone a bit maverick these days.] Obviously the sun is murdoch owned so linked also to fox tv, therefore this p8 plane story should've been in all their tv coverage to show folk what was potentially happening here. It's worrying that it wasn't mentioned as I think the warhawks could've been up to skulduggery and been prepared to sacrifice the 30-35 crew members in order to get their war.

The irony of that headline is the USA shot down an iranian airliner with a cruise missile by 'mistake' in 1988, killing all 290 people onboard, a terrible event...I wish the US and Iran could come to some sort of agreement to normalise relations but it seems unlikely atm. Tearing up an agreement that took years of diplomacy set a really poor precedent.

Interesting that map of air and military bases, can the USA really justify the continued financial cost of all this when it's so heavily in debt, is it in the US's national interest? I doubt it'll be ever debated seriously by either party, some politicians like rand paul and tulsi gabbard would probably be in favour of rowing back some of the bases, but they're largely marginalised by the msm rather than promoted.

IMO, Mr. T's plan was for the Iranians to shoot down the plane, which would have given him the green light from the entire Congress to unleash the US war machine yet again.

Even with the high readiness of the US Army, you will need some days to prepare a strike, do risk analysis, select and brief people, organize rescue plans and assets if someone goes down etc etc. Nobody in the US army or in any other army will send its soldiers into "hail mary" operation with no plans.

But Mr. T apparently ordered the strike just hours after the drone was shot down.

So in essence, they were prepared and had it all planned. But the Iranians did not shoot at the P8, they took out the drone, which did not give the US the international right to attack a country, especially because it was not clear where the drone was at the point of impact.

So Mr T in trying to save his face made up the "cocked & loaded" story to try and make him look like he is a decisive leader.

Hence, the plans were surely there but after they backfired there was never a decision, let alone an order to go ahead.

EDIT: By the way, one of the tankers the US is so adamant that it was Iran who attacked it in May (still no evidence brought forward by Pompano and Mr T as promised) is on its way to deliver a fuel load to Iran. Now, I am sure if they knew it was Iran, the shipping company would never send its own ship into a danger zone, wouldn't they? And second, no insurance company would offer cover.

Google Andrea Victory

 

[mack341]

Just read these tweets from the US president on a Sunday morning. Does it not sound to you like he lost all his marbles? ....And this guy has the nuclear codes in his pocket! ...I wouldn't trust him with my cigarette lighter, let alone some weaponry.

And all because Fox had some Democrats in some of the news shows.

View attachment 110999

This came up before, donald does not like some of the weekend fox tv presenters, I've always been of the opinion that not everyone at fox does like trump, even the owners...but there's an audience to be had and the ad revenue etc.. plus an opportunity to influence trump on policies.

Just reading this article at mediamatters.org
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"With one

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, pro-Trump commentators at the network have mostly been recklessly arguing that the president should strike Iran and can do so Outdated URL (Invalid).

Friday morning on Fox & Friends, the hosts differed on the wisdom of Trump calling off the strike the night before but broadly agreed that a military response was inevitable and could be achieved without risk.

Co-host Brian Kilmeade was harshly critical of Trump throughout the broadcast,

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what he depicted as the president’s lack of action in the face of one-sided Iranian aggression.

“They blow up four tankers and we do nothing,” he

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. “When they blow up our drone that costs $130 million and we do nothing, we know it's not going to end there. So at some point, in the Middle East, no action looks like weakness, and weakness begets more attacks."

Kilmeade

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at the notion of engaging in additional diplomacy with Iran, saying it “makes us look so weak” to do so at this point. He also

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, “If it was President Obama, ... every Republican would be losing their mind. So I think people have to be consistent here and be concerned about America's image and our strength.” "

".....Pete Hegseth, a co-host of the program’s weekend edition who also privately advises Trump, staked out a middle ground during a guest appearance on the show. He argued that a military response was necessary and inevitable,

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, “The reason we have international waters and international air space in the world today is the United States Navy and the United States Air Force. If we allow our drones, manned or unmanned, to be shot down and we don’t respond, that’s going to create a world where those spaces are contested. You cannot allow this to happen. This is -- you got to strike back.”


"....By contrast, Tucker Carlson, who has

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on Iran,

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on Thursday’s program that any military strike could spiral out of control. “The same people who lured us into the Iraq quagmire 16 years ago are demanding a new war, this one with Iran,” he said, adding that Trump, “to his great credit, appears to be skeptical of this -- very skeptical.”

Carlson slammed the “permanent foreign policy establishment in Washington” for criticizing Trump for not responding militarily to Iran. “None of these people will admit their actual intentions,” he said. “They'll tell you they don't really want to war with Iran. That's a crock. They want a war badly, badly enough to lie about it. That's why they're putting American troops into situations where conflict is inevitable in order to start a war.”

Possibly this last bit was a nod to the p8 plane element?

 

[Harry_BKK]

This came up before, donald does not like some of the weekend fox tv presenters, I've always been of the opinion that not everyone at fox does like trump, even the owners...but there's an audience to be had and the ad revenue etc.. plus an opportunity to influence trump on policies.

Just reading this article at mediamatters.org
Outdated URL (Invalid)

"With one

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

, pro-Trump commentators at the network have mostly been recklessly arguing that the president should strike Iran and can do so Outdated URL (Invalid).

Friday morning on Fox & Friends, the hosts differed on the wisdom of Trump calling off the strike the night before but broadly agreed that a military response was inevitable and could be achieved without risk.

Co-host Brian Kilmeade was harshly critical of Trump throughout the broadcast,

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

what he depicted as the president’s lack of action in the face of one-sided Iranian aggression.

“They blow up four tankers and we do nothing,” he

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

. “When they blow up our drone that costs $130 million and we do nothing, we know it's not going to end there. So at some point, in the Middle East, no action looks like weakness, and weakness begets more attacks."

Kilmeade

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

at the notion of engaging in additional diplomacy with Iran, saying it “makes us look so weak” to do so at this point. He also

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

, “If it was President Obama, ... every Republican would be losing their mind. So I think people have to be consistent here and be concerned about America's image and our strength.” "

".....Pete Hegseth, a co-host of the program’s weekend edition who also privately advises Trump, staked out a middle ground during a guest appearance on the show. He argued that a military response was necessary and inevitable,

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

, “The reason we have international waters and international air space in the world today is the United States Navy and the United States Air Force. If we allow our drones, manned or unmanned, to be shot down and we don’t respond, that’s going to create a world where those spaces are contested. You cannot allow this to happen. This is -- you got to strike back.”


"....By contrast, Tucker Carlson, who has

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on Iran,

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on Thursday’s program that any military strike could spiral out of control. “The same people who lured us into the Iraq quagmire 16 years ago are demanding a new war, this one with Iran,” he said, adding that Trump, “to his great credit, appears to be skeptical of this -- very skeptical.”

Carlson slammed the “permanent foreign policy establishment in Washington” for criticizing Trump for not responding militarily to Iran. “None of these people will admit their actual intentions,” he said. “They'll tell you they don't really want to war with Iran. That's a crock. They want a war badly, badly enough to lie about it. That's why they're putting American troops into situations where conflict is inevitable in order to start a war.”

Possibly this last bit was a nod to the p8 plane element?

The nutheads on Faux News, sorry I don't use that word very often. None of them has ever been close to a warzone yet beating the drum. And that without any factual information or proper confirmation that the US drone was in international waters.

I would take all those and Mr T and let them stand 10 yards from a tank without ear defenders when it fires a live round. They would be scared for life.

Fact is Mr T has been sabre-rattling and ratcheting for over a year now, it will eventually lead somewhere. Fact is also that anything happening in the region is immediately pinned on Iran with no proper evidence shown to anyone. So yes, the US war machinery is hard at work. After all, bringing all those people home from those bases will cost money too and they will have nothing to keep them busy while they are watching the armoury corrode slowly.

 

[mack341]

Please show me one "left" person saying the US should go to war with Iran after the incidents? What is your paranoia with the "left" because you're trying very hard to pin stuff on them all the time? As long as I can think back, the US wars were all started by the "right", none by the "left".

Where they were right to say is that on the world stage you lose credibility very quickly when you keep making empty threats and/or scrap willy-nilly signed treaties.

I wasn't meaning 'left' people were baying for war but that 1. the liberal media does push and support war, hence the broad support for the iraq war but because of what happened there, they now have to be a bit more subtle about how they do it. The libya conflict was argued for on 'humanitarian grounds' which plays well with the left, likewise syria was going to be the same but russia intervened at the last minute.

Obama, operating from the left, was in power during the libya conflict and yemeni conflict with saudia arabia, assisting SA with targetting, arms, intel etc..

The trump threats in the iran stuation came on the back of the oil tanker 'events' and drone shoot down, I think the msm broadly accepted the events at face value and did not scrutinize them sufficiently to expose the illogical flaws.

Instead a narrative which no one challenges was quickly created, now whether trump was in on the plan for war I'm not sure, I think it more likely he was in a 'hostage to fortune situation' under political pressure to respond but not really keen personally for the resulting deaths and carnage.

 

[mack341]

The nutheads on Faux News, sorry I don't use that word very often. None of them has ever been close to a warzone yet beating the drum. And that without any factual information or proper confirmation that the US drone was in international waters.

I would take all those and Mr T and let them stand 10 yards from a tank without ear defenders when it fires a live round. They would be scared for life.

Fact is Mr T has been sabre-rattling and ratcheting for over a year now, it will eventually lead somewhere. Fact is also that anything happening in the region is immediately pinned on Iran with no proper evidence shown to anyone. So yes, the US war machinery is hard at work. After all, bringing all those people home from those bases will cost money too and they will have nothing to keep them busy while they are watching the armoury corrode slowly.

That's another thing, the effects of warfare are played down by the media [I say msm but the corporate owned large companies] the devastating sound of a missile hitting and exploding a building is not shown properly, the audio is muted, the dead and mutilated are not shown to avoid 'upsetting' viewers. When the vietnam war started to get more coverage on tv, the protests increased and public opinion shifted against the war and ever since the media coverage of conflicts is sanitised for public consumption.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Faux News got more than they bargained for when they tried to show Americans celebrating the US Women's Football Team in France. No chance to switch a broadcast off that quick.

 

[slotplayer]

Faux News got more than they bargained for when they tried to show Americans celebrating the US Women's Football Team in France. No chance to switch a broadcast off that quick.

I saw this live and the first thing I said to myself was there was something odd with those Americans, I couldn't quite pinpoint it, then the guy in the red hat went into the T rant and I realized they've been through the indoctrination mill.

 

[Harry_BKK]

I saw this live and the first thing I said to myself was there was something odd with those Americans, I couldn't quite pinpoint it, then the guy in the red hat went into the T rant and I realized they've been through the indoctrination mill.

Yeah sure, there must be something wrong with everyone who does not hail the emperor Mr T.

 

[goatwack]

Seems not at all like plants

 

[goatwack]

They've really been set back. We're working very hard on the Internet. For a period of time, they used the Internet better than we did. They used the Internet brilliantly, but now it's not so brilliant. And now the people on the Internet that used to look up to them and say how wonderful and brilliant they are, are not thinking of them as being so brilliant.

- Donald

The group's ability to use the internet to attract recruits and inspire attacks enables its global reach, the minister told Sky News in an interview at the Home Office.

"That means that everyone has potentially an ISIS problem in every country around the world and that that needs to be addressed collectively as a group of international nations but also in investing in countering harms online

- Security Minister Ben Wallace

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Turns out defeating the raggedy sand-ridden caliphate with boots on the ground didn't exactly herald the end of their reign. They're consolidating if anything, with the likes of al-Qaeda re-emerging in the power-vaccuum chaos left behind. Yee-ha!

 

[vorcirion]

Trump has been amazing for comedy at least

 

[Harry_BKK]

Yesterday, another "hamberder" from Mr T

"The kidney, very special, the kidney has a very special place in the heart. It's an incredible thing,"

Only the best words! Geez, this guy is the president of the US.

 

[goatwack]

Poignant stuff. Next he'll be saying how lungs unite us

 

[Harry_BKK]

The usual bragging lies from Mr T

"The tax cut will pay for itself and even more, reduce the deficit"
"We are taking in billions and billions of dollars in tariffs from China"

The reality:





And that in what is supposedly the best economy ever!

Given time enough, he will bankrupt the US just like most of his businesses. He might even get an interest rate cut from the FED within the next few weeks, so the government, companies and the people can saddle themselves with even more debt.

 

[slotplayer]

Omar wants power. Guess my conspiracy theories aren't so far fetched.

 

[mack341]

Trump's gone tweet mad in the last 24 hrs, 18 tweets I counted, this AOC thing has stirred up a lot. He seems to be unsure of himself, drifting all over the place and venting...why's he so worried about 4 democrat congresswomen?

On the bigger picture regarding future prosperity and stability, the chickens are likely to come to roost at some point, if you go back to after the 2nd world war and follow events through to now, I don't think it's sustainable to carry on with 'business as usual', 22 trillion dollars of debt and growing when's the penny finally going to drop?

...the campaign motto make america great again is all well and good, but in reality what core points does it come down to? What are the benchmarks from the past he wants to reachieve, or is it just a pipe dream and advertising slogan?

I'm starting to think he'll be rudderless in this upcoming campaign without someone like bannon prompting him in the right directions and equipping him with the sound bites to garner votes.

It's lucky for him the democrats don't really seem to have a believable heavy hitter, middle of the road candidate. They're a fractured party too, more than the republicans, can someone moderate get the far left votes?

 

[vorcirion]

Trump's gone tweet mad in the last 24 hrs, 18 tweets I counted, this AOC thing seems to have stirred up a lot. He seems to be unsure of himself, drifting all over the place and venting...why's he so worried about 4 democrat congresswomen?

The chickens are likely to come to roost at some point, if you go back to after the 2nd world war and follow events through to now, I don't think it's sustainable to carry on with 'business as usual', 21 trillion dollars of debt and growing when's the penny going to drop?

...the campaign motto make america great again is all well and good, but in reality what core points does it come down to? What are the benchmarks from the past he wants to reachieve, or is it just a pipe dream and advertising slogan?

I'm starting to think he'll be rudderless in this upcoming campaign without someone like bannon prompting him in the right directions and equipping him with the sound bites to garner votes.

It's lucky for him the democrats don't really seem to have a believable heavy hitter, middle of the road candidate. They're a fractured party too, more than the republicans, can someone moderate get the far left votes?

It's weird how leftists would need to have a middle of the road candidate but right wing can have completely racist, anti-environment, anti-abortion, anti-science, anti-human, criminal, mentally ill, white nationalist candidate.
I'd ask the question differently...how far left can the democratic candidate go and still win the presidency?

 

[mack341]

It's weird how leftists would need to have a middle of the road candidate but right wing can have completely racist, anti-environment, anti-abortion, anti-science, anti-human, criminal, mentally ill, white nationalist candidate.
I'd ask the question differently...how far left can the democratic candidate go and still win the presidency?

Typical is that the only thing you found in my post of interest, how far left the USA democrats can go and still win?

BTW why is late term abortion a left wing policy? If a right wing police state was going around declaring mothers from poor backgrounds unfit and recommending aborting you'd be up in arms, but it's alright for business to offer and do this 'service'?

 

[vorcirion]

typical, is that the only thing you found in my post of interest, how far left the USA democrats can go and still win? Why is late term abortion a left wing policy? If a right wing police state was going around declaring mothers from poor backgrounds unfit and recommending aborting you'd be up in arms, but it's alright for business to offer and do this 'service'?

I don't think the majority of leftists favor late term abortion. They just favor that women make the choice based on their individual situations. Republicans seem to want to ban abortion altogether.
And Trump doesn't care about debts as you might have seen from his personal life. He and republicans want more military spending...for what? There's tons of money there that could be used for better purposes.

 

[mack341]

I don't think the majority of leftists favor late term abortion. They just favor that women make the choice based on their individual situations. Republicans seem to want to ban abortion altogether.
And Trump doesn't care about debts as you might have seen from his personal life. He and republicans want more military spending...for what? There's tons of money there that could be used for better purposes.

But the thing is the women mainly having abortions are primarily from poor and uneducated backgrounds, and it sets a low tone of morality and questionable ethics for a society..it's the consumer throwaway mentality violating the miracle of life [I'm not talking about rapes but that should be decided within days of it happening]

I think we agree on the military spending, it does provide some employment but it is a negative use of money beyond defense from direct attack on the nation, and with stacks of nuclear weapons [including probably mini sized and tactical warheads] that is 100% unlikely to happen unless someone wants armageddon.

 

[vorcirion]

But the thing is the women mainly having abortions are primarily from poor and uneducated backgrounds, and it sets a low tone of morality and questionable ethics for a society..it's the consumer throwaway mentality violating the miracle of life [I'm not talking about rapes but that should be decided within days of it happening]

I think we agree on the military spending, it does provide some employment but it is a negative use of money beyond defense from direct attack on the nation, and with stacks of nuclear weapons [including probably mini sized and tactical warheads] that is 100% unlikely to happen unless someone wants armageddon.

Yeah don't know how that could be handled. It sucks that abortions happen 'cause people never will be responsible enough. Don't think even amazing sex education would help with the situation 'cause teens will be teens and adults aren't much better at it. I think the current limitations are good enough and we should focus on other things...like climate change!

 

[Harry_BKK]

Trump's gone tweet mad in the last 24 hrs, 18 tweets I counted, this AOC thing has stirred up a lot. He seems to be unsure of himself, drifting all over the place and venting...why's he so worried about 4 democrat congresswomen?

On the bigger picture regarding future prosperity and stability, the chickens are likely to come to roost at some point, if you go back to after the 2nd world war and follow events through to now, I don't think it's sustainable to carry on with 'business as usual', 22 trillion dollars of debt and growing when's the penny finally going to drop?

...the campaign motto make america great again is all well and good, but in reality what core points does it come down to? What are the benchmarks from the past he wants to reachieve, or is it just a pipe dream and advertising slogan?

I'm starting to think he'll be rudderless in this upcoming campaign without someone like bannon prompting him in the right directions and equipping him with the sound bites to garner votes.

It's lucky for him the democrats don't really seem to have a believable heavy hitter, middle of the road candidate. They're a fractured party too, more than the republicans, can someone moderate get the far left votes?

You think that was "tweet mad", I am saying it is only the start of an increasingly complete madness which will continue until election day. He thinks it is good for him as he has nothing else to run on because he has simply no achievements whatsoever other than an economy fueled by a huge tax cut/increased government spending that hardly benefits the normal US citizen. The whole thing will crash at some point because the borrowed money will run out soon. The US is only weeks away from defaulting on its debt payments and there is still no solution in sight. Well, they actually have run out of money in spring but the Treasury keeps the doors open through some technical tricks.

I said it right at the start of the other Mr T thread. Given time enough, he will run the US into the ground just like his own businesses. Just imagine, he got some $400 million from his dad and still managed to lose over $1 billion within 10 years some decades ago.

MAGA is just a marketing slogan which works well. He surely did not have any concrete plans to achieve it other than rolling back anything Obama did plus borrowing more money. He thinks re-creating a few thousand coal jobs and reopening a few steel mills is the epitome of making America great but significantly cuts the education budget which would allow the next generation to learn the skills needed in the future.

He will run a "dirty" campaign as the US has never seen before. Wait for the TV debates as that will be the climax. And it will get even "dirtier" if he loses the election as he won't accept defeat.

As for the democrats, they will vote whoever is nominated because the line of thinking is: "anyone but Mr T."

No matter what happens, anything negative will not be his fault ever. He is simply not capable of taking responsibility unless it is favourable to him.

 

[mack341]

Given time enough, he will run the US into the ground just like his own businesses

I think the problem is bigger than one person, people didn't nominate trump [a political outsider with a fair bit of baggage] over the other republican candidates because they were happy and content with the republican establishment, they wanted change and not for things to carry on as usual, ditto in a way with bernie attracting a lot of support/votes against hillary, there's a lack of trust in the 'trusted' candidates the two parties preferred.

Now I think you're right the democrats will unite on the basis of 'we must get rid of trump', but the exposure on prime time tv of the far left's policy ideas and intentions will surely galvanise the republican vote and possibly result in some undecided middle of the road voters swinging to trump?

If trump hadn't made those tax cuts and introduced the trade tariffs and left those two areas unchanged that wouldn't fix the economy either, If things had been going so well under bush and obama the public would've never voted for trump in the first place.

Cheaper consumer goods made in china is not a panacea for all economic ills. [Are the chinese workers entitled to a pension, holiday and fair worker rights etc...?] It does help the 1% increase their bank balance by millions/billions though.

It's also in a way anti climate protection, as cheap replaceable goods tend to just get trashed, an item of clothing only worn a few times etc..,so the current setup is contributing to the unsustainable, throwaway consumer lifestyle. Plus the shipping fuel/pollution to transport goods from china to the US and all over the world...[and the shipping of the raw materials to china prior to production] these must be facts relevant to pollution output?

 

[mack341]

"Every day the clothes, tech and toys that fill the shelves in our shopping centres seem to arrive there by magic. In fact, about nine out of 10 items are shipped halfway around the world on board some of the biggest and dirtiest machines on the planet.

It has been estimated that just one of these container ships, the length of around six football pitches, can produce the same amount of pollution as 50 million cars. The emissions from 15 of these mega-ships match those from all the cars in the world. And if the shipping industry were a country, it would be ranked between Germany and Japan as the sixth-largest contributor to global CO2 emissions."