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NetEnt has joined the the group of providers offering different RTP settings

Yes same for me, but I don't class as a UK player at VS.

Can we nail it down to a territory or territories that get the 'We'll steal some of your winnings booster' when actually logged in?

I tagged @Team.Videoslots earlier to get an explanation because it looks rather chaotic with the two versions. It's not even the same for all in the UK when you read the member posts.

Maybe it is connected to the date of registration. Maybe they are just rolling it out. Who knows. :rolleyes:

Either way, just having that up there is not right. No casino can withhold any part of your winnings. And calling it a Weekend Booster is misleading as it is your own money you won on the slots. Plus, they do not explain if you hit a payout on a spin that is less than your bet, which means you actually do not have a win. Are they taking it from there too?

While they have a clause in the Weekend Booster part that new players consent to have part of their winnings withheld, there is no such mention in the general casino terms, which new players accept when they register. They do not see the Weekend Booster terms. Neither do the General Terms mention that enrolment is automatic, optional or whatever.

Maybe @ternur could give us his legal opinion.

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I tagged @Team.Videoslots earlier to get an explanation because it looks rather chaotic with the two versions. It's not even the same for all in the UK when you read the member posts.

Maybe it is connected to the date of registration. Maybe they are just rolling it out. Who knows. :rolleyes:

Either way, just having that up there is not right. No casino can withhold any part of your winnings.

While they have a clause in the Weekend Booster part that new players consent to have part of their winnings withheld, there is no such mention in the general casino terms, which new players accept when they register. They do not see the Weekend Booster terms. Neither do the General Terms mention that enrolment is automatic, optional or whatever.

Maybe @ternur could give us his legal opinion.

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It doesn't look great. I'll think about this more later on (not totally sober atm).
 
I would suggest, here in the UK, it shouldn't be done. It should be opt in, not opt out.
It's along the lines of those scams that used to happen when you bought something from a website, they would have a banner up saying 'save £15 on your next order, click here for the code' you went through signed up, got the voucher, then a month later noticed a direct debit come out for £19.99, as hidden in the terms was a bit saying 'you agree to a 12 month membership of xxxscam charged at £19.99 a month'. That was made illegal and now you have to specifically opt in rather than use an opt out, as they were charging you without opted in consent. I know VS aren't charging anyone as you actually get the money back, but would suggest it's along the same lines.

It's a shame they don't have a rep who would actually explain stuff like this BEFORE it went live, oh wait, they did. Dan.
 
I would suggest, here in the UK, it shouldn't be done. It should be opt in, not opt out.
It's along the lines of those scams that used to happen when you bought something from a website, they would have a banner up saying 'save £15 on your next order, click here for the code' you went through signed up, got the voucher, then a month later noticed a direct debit come out for £19.99, as hidden in the terms was a bit saying 'you agree to a 12 month membership of xxxscam charged at £19.99 a month'. That was made illegal and now you have to specifically opt in rather than use an opt out, as they were charging you without opted in consent. I know VS aren't charging anyone as you actually get the money back, but would suggest it's along the same lines.

It's a shame they don't have a rep who would actually explain stuff like this BEFORE it went live, oh wait, they did. Dan.

I'm an amateur when it comes to legal things but I sure know that anything that impacts your OWN money has to be OPT-IN first and not OPT-OUT. That's how it is in Germany and I would assume EU-wide.

TBH, somehow I think this has been an April fool's joke and somebody forgot to take it down. But it isn't.

Remember how long it took them to take down their advertising about giving back part of their profits and called it "earn 25% cashback" when they still had the original cashback scheme, which was in no way true. While that was plain misleading, this latest change is taking the biscuit if it is true.

I said a long time ago, there is a piece-meal plan they follow and see how far they can go. Reduce rewards, reduce RTPs, increase battle requirements etc etc. and this could well be their next step.
 
Isolation drinking. Days, time of day ... everything comes a blur.

My philosophy: Eat when hungry, sleep when tired, drink when feel like it. :p

Reminds me of a book i read called 'Yojokun - Life Lessons from a Samurai'.

I cant find the actual quote and i lent the book but it was very similar, something like........

'Eat when you are hungry, sleep when tired, relieve when you need'

There was an afterword that said something like 'a stupid man will scoff but a wise man will know what is meant'.
 
In order to meet the market demands and conditions at present, watering down the beer is better than no beer at all? Product shrinkage I think it's called. Remember how your tube of Rolos has gone from 12, 10 9 etc. in order to keep them the same price? If you aren't a big worldwide operation that can subsidize one section of games or jurisdiction with profits from others, this is what you'll get. It's not the casinos trying to rip you off, they're simply trying to keep afloat.
 
In order to meet the market demands and conditions at present, watering down the beer is better than no beer at all? Product shrinkage I think it's called. Remember how your tube of Rolos has gone from 12, 10 9 etc. in order to keep them the same price? If you aren't a big worldwide operation that can subsidize one section of games or jurisdiction with profits from others, this is what you'll get. It's not the casinos trying to rip you off, they're simply trying to keep afloat.

Hell NO !!!
 
Remember how your tube of Rolos has gone from 12, 10 9 etc. in order to keep them the same price?

I remember them doing that to make more money :)

I appreciate what you are saying about being ripped off but when its not clear there are product changes or things are changed without notification then it feels like the wool is being pulled over your eyes at least.

They didnt put fake rolos in to cover up the ones that were missing.
 
In order to meet the market demands and conditions at present, watering down the beer is better than no beer at all? Product shrinkage I think it's called. Remember how your tube of Rolos has gone from 12, 10 9 etc. in order to keep them the same price? If you aren't a big worldwide operation that can subsidize one section of games or jurisdiction with profits from others, this is what you'll get. It's not the casinos trying to rip you off, they're simply trying to keep afloat.
The difference being when you buy something like that you can tell by looking that the packet is smaller.

Casinos reducing the RTP without notifying anyone is terrible. Seriously, who goes into the help screen of every single game they play, every single time they play it before spinning? LV Bet managed to put a pop up informing players of them reducing the RTP, every casino should do so.

If you have savings in an account paying 4% interest, and the bank reduce it to 2% without informing you, saying well it was displayed on your account, on a page no one ever goes to so you should have known, wouldn't be acceptable, that is more of a comparison to this than a bar of chocolate reducing in size.
 
To be fair, if you watered down the horrid beer that is Stella/Budweiser, you'd probably end up with something more palatable:puke:

Budweiser is not beer I agree. I like German lagers. They are a like a river of pure joy running through your veins.

Reinheitsgebot FTW!
 
Budweiser is not beer I agree. I like German lagers. They are a like a river of pure joy running through your veins.

Reinheitsgebot FTW!

I imagine if you prove immune to Covid-19 it may take a while for the scientists to unpick the water, hops and malt infused into your DNA to uncover the secret :eek::p
 
In order to meet the market demands and conditions at present, watering down the beer is better than no beer at all? Product shrinkage I think it's called. Remember how your tube of Rolos has gone from 12, 10 9 etc. in order to keep them the same price? If you aren't a big worldwide operation that can subsidize one section of games or jurisdiction with profits from others, this is what you'll get. It's not the casinos trying to rip you off, they're simply trying to keep afloat.

Sorry mate but there is little defence for lowering RTP, I could possibly forgive and begin to understand the 96% down to 94% move but anything lower is basic greed and taking the piss, nothing to do with staying afloat.

A well organised and well run operator can survive without these player suffering moves, Lets forget the less Rolos in the packet and look at the amount of business (general not just casinos) who have to settle for a smaller profit margin these days but continue to run a successful business

Times have changed and casinos too have to accept this that the good old days of having a "Counting house King" are gone, greed goes along with this. If the smaller operators fall by the wayside so be it, there are too many casinos out there nowadays anyway and businesses in general are closing all the time.

IMO a loss of operators would be a tremendous boost for the industry (for those who do it right!) and players would not have to constantly be the 'fall guy'
 
I remain open to the idea that casinos make so little they need to offer lower rtp to survive but am yet to be convinced.

These are not sole traders taking a punt at a business.

They pay 100's of thousands of pounds in setting up data centre contracts and licence fees (i think) - not to mention the additional set up costs with structuring a business.

They attract investment and whilst i know little of the exact costings i doubt they run on small profits.
 
In order to meet the market demands and conditions at present, watering down the beer is better than no beer at all? Product shrinkage I think it's called. Remember how your tube of Rolos has gone from 12, 10 9 etc. in order to keep them the same price? If you aren't a big worldwide operation that can subsidize one section of games or jurisdiction with profits from others, this is what you'll get. It's not the casinos trying to rip you off, they're simply trying to keep afloat.

Ah, horseshit (no offence intended) - GVC made nearly 500m profit last year but there they are, "struggling to survive" and "watering the beer" on Play & Go while paying out 35p/share in dividends...
 
"Hey guys, I was thinking of starting a casino business. What's that? Yes Mike, I'm doing it out of the goodness of my heart. Casinos are the poor little orphans of the business world and make almost no money. Infact all our peers went into it for shits and giggles and to lose a ton of money!"

^ that's a real transcript
 
I remember when wandering into this industry like a rookie eight years ago, and bonuses were commonplace, games ran properly in Flash, and one could play DOA with bonus funds.

Ah balls it was just a dream. And why are the sheets wet
 
I remember when wandering into this industry like a rookie eight years ago, and bonuses were commonplace, games ran properly in Flash, and one could play DOA with bonus funds.

Ah balls it was just a dream. And why are the sheets wet
Doa will do that to you..
:)
 
In order to meet the market demands and conditions at present, watering down the beer is better than no beer at all? Product shrinkage I think it's called. Remember how your tube of Rolos has gone from 12, 10 9 etc. in order to keep them the same price? If you aren't a big worldwide operation that can subsidize one section of games or jurisdiction with profits from others, this is what you'll get. It's not the casinos trying to rip you off, they're simply trying to keep afloat.
If we had only just began to see rtp's being reduced by providers then it could be reasonable to presume it was just to provide casinos with options during these extremely uncertain times. But that obviously has not been the case because the evidence prooves otherwise over the past year or so. ( Plus Harry warned us)

I recall my first curly wurly. I had one end in my gob while the other end dragged along the ground :p
 
I’m drinking this beautiful Augustiner Edelstoff now, 5.6%, absolute beer perfection
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Oh YES! That's a great Beer! Love it :thumbsup:

That's also the one Bryan has had as a prize in CM Bierfest. At least the one time I managed to win it. Ah, free beer --- not much beats that.
 
Ah, horseshit (no offence intended) - GVC made nearly 500m profit last year but there they are, "struggling to survive" and "watering the beer" on Play & Go while paying out 35p/share in dividends...
Meaningless without context - where did they make their profit? UK? Abroad? Betting? Like any big business, if they identify areas that are not cost effective or loss-making, they will act accordingly.
 
I was thinking how helpful streamers can be, if they want.
They can make a habit of opening the help file and looking for the RTP every time they open a game.

Anything can change, anytime and anywhere, so isn't it the responsible thing to do? ;)

Thought that "streamer RTP" is biggest most commonly known secret gaming world wanna keep away from people eyes ;)
 
I understand how a 100% bonus is different as most people bust out, but the 10% is cash and withdrawable.

It requires a lot of extra work :)

Also bear in mind that if a bonus is included in the deposit, the cashback is not calculated. That's also very important.

Also we stopped with "bonuses on the spot", support always had the leverage to add between 5% to 10% compensation if a customer would ask. Why not just turn it in to a standard service is what we thoughed. And as a result we went live on the first of January. It has increased the overall bonus costs a bit, but not too much.

Kr. Jan
 
It requires a lot of extra work :)

Also bear in mind that if a bonus is included in the deposit, the cashback is not calculated. That's also very important.

Also we stopped with "bonuses on the spot", support always had the leverage to add between 5% to 10% compensation if a customer would ask. Why not just turn it in to a standard service is what we thoughed. And as a result we went live on the first of January. It has increased the overall bonus costs a bit, but not too much.

Kr. Jan


Presumably even crediting a cash bonus, the actual amounts of cashback paid that lead to a withdrawal are very small?

I've been very lucky with cash back once; I don't let it build up, I just play it the next day for an extra five-ten minutes of time, if lucky.
 
@danofthewibble
But cashback paid, that results in a withdrawal = a returning customer. Look at yourself :) hahaa

btw. for the current net ent games where you can adjust RTPs we won't be doing that. Don't have the tools in place to properly inform customers and that is a regulatory requirement. So to avoid a mistake we won't be increasing or reducing RTPs.
 
@danofthewibble
But cashback paid, that results in a withdrawal = a returning customer. Look at yourself :) hahaa

btw. for the current net ent games where you can adjust RTPs we won't be doing that. Don't have the tools in place to properly inform customers and that is a regulatory requirement. So to avoid a mistake we won't be increasing or reducing RTPs.

True enough. The cashback isn't the sole reason I've been returning, I think it's also because I trust the L&L sites.

I miss Casino Heroes in the UK. Their bonus scheme was tremendous - just logging in got credit toward bonuses. A few times I'd worked up to decent bonuses just by logging in daily, favouriting slots... got a +£100.00 win on a £0.09 spin on DOA 2 from that.

Bloody UK taxes ;)
 
Hearing about these (Scandinavian?) casinos that offer 98-99% on the games if they ever bring that model to the other markets they dont need promos, bonuses, free spins, cashback or any of that laughable guff that is used to justify lower RTPs, and players will swarm them once word gets out, high rollers and low rollers we'll all be there. I sure as hell will be.
Would be an interesting experiment to see if the lame excuses hold up once one casino with 98% rtp takes ALL the players and yet still stays profitable.
 
Meaningless without context - where did they make their profit? UK? Abroad? Betting? Like any big business, if they identify areas that are not cost effective or loss-making, they will act accordingly.

It's a 3.5% guaranteed house edge on very popular random games, I very much doubt it's loss making.
I was thinking how helpful streamers can be, if they want.
They can make a habit of opening the help file and looking for the RTP every time they open a game.

Anything can change, anytime and anywhere, so isn't it the responsible thing to do? ;)

Well, there are two very well-known up and coming UK streamers who both play at Genesis Casinos and claim that RTP is meaningless. Total ignorance from most, unfortunately.
 
Hearing about these (Scandinavian?) casinos that offer 98-99% on the games if they ever bring that model to the other markets they dont need promos, bonuses, free spins, cashback or any of that laughable guff that is used to justify lower RTPs, and players will swarm them once word gets out, high rollers and low rollers we'll all be there. I sure as hell will be.
Would be an interesting experiment to see if the lame excuses hold up once one casino with 98% rtp takes ALL the players and yet still stays profitable.

Just noticed the Belgian version of Unibet also offers 5 NetEnt slots at 98% now. They didn't do this previously with the PnG ones.

We don't get any bonuses, free spins or other promos anymore either.
 
It's a 3.5% guaranteed house edge on very popular random games, I very much doubt it's loss making.

That's for many also your only income which needs to cover your operational and other expences. We have seen and going to see some casinos go busted even they make profit from slot players, that profit is shared between casino operator, game provider and often affiliate. Then you have your other expences, directly related to games are at least bonus costs which cut your profit margin etc..

Then these other million things what every business has, staff, office, marketing costs and all running costs. Many casinos really are not gold mines at the moment, share prices with many have dipped quite big (they also rocketed huge speed up) which usually makes it more difficult to find investors or cheap cash from markets to develop your business which is more or less needed time to time.

10 years ago or something when every day was launch of few new ones it looked like a gold mine, just integrate payment channels and Starburst to your site and watch your NGR hitting nice numbers. Now we see less totally new operators and very few who really make themselves huge with some new ideas but much more these which were operating 1-3 years and then realize that we can't get our share from market with our product and skills, better quite. Some totally new innovations could help at least temporarily but also big operators are really fast to adapt some new working ideas some new operator have created.

It really seems that highest bubble here in Malta start to blow, big operators buying small ones which have anything worth of buying, some who came semi big like GIG, sold they all casino brands, two most successful Guts and Rizk to Betsson, they were (especially Rizk when you read their reports which can be found from their site) were doing good but maybe other areas of business not and have to pay some quite big taken bonds this year etc.. Their share price was two years ago around 60 NOK and bit over, today seems to be 4.40 SEK. Kindred two yeas ago around 128 SEK now 38.42 SEK.

From quarterly reports what listed companies have to provide, it can be seen that making losses is also possible. Igaming bubble been blown up years and yers but already sometime ago came to point where that easy money is already taken, now it takes loads more to survive in competition. Coming market as new operator with your own license (white labels are bit different when for example Aspire is doing you all marketing and other operations and you pay them for that) and staff (many also buy things like support, payments, KYC/Fraud etc.. from 3rd parties who only provide these services to others without having any own casino brands, that's been growing quite a lot in last years as these needs quite big head count to cover all hours and languages, it's very big investment to have on your own when you launch your site, of course quality is hard to keep same if you have one dedicated team only for your brand or Aspire style where same support agent serve same time customer from 4 different brands, you just can't learn tens of them as well you can learn one, at Aspire T&C:s ofc are really same for all which helps but anyway you missing something of that deep knowledge if you have 20 instead of 1) is quite rare these days and needs quite big investment and investors are not that easy to find to igaming anymore as success is not that "guaranteed" than it was still few years ago when these big companies came huge companies. In beginning also you always spend much more to bonuses and marketing to get players in, then with time, you have to get your costs in healthy level, you can't keep your opening offers and much higher bonus costs for ever, these are temporary things what most of new casinos have as have to have better SUB:s to make players to change from their old place to you.

Sorry about long and horribly structured post, but i really can say that loss making and busting out from business is possible in igaming and that's era we are going through now, healthy big companies who already have grown huge, maybe (would like to say probably but i'm bad at betting) survive as they can buy others if they see something interesting around. Many also have some money for bad days to temporarily boost bonus costs etc... But amount of small operators (now including white labels) have reduced a lot for especially some operators who targeted B2B WL business, have lost most of their WL:s as they couldn't make profit, even they have that same guaranteed house edge than all others.
 
Well, thats good, no?
If they cant attract enough people to stay profitable they will fail, and good casinos will soak up their playerbase, letting them stay profitable without lowering the rtp.
Win-win.

Edit: What i mean is, there is clearly no need for 90+ casinos on the Swedish market to choose from.
Let 80 burn to the ground and leave 10 good ones.
 
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Well, thats good, no?
If they cant attract enough people to stay profitable they will fail, and good casinos will soak up their playerbase, letting them stay profitable without lowering the rtp.
Win-win.

Edit: What i mean is, there is clearly no need for 90+ casinos on the Swedish market to choose from.
Let 80 burn to the ground and leave 10 good ones.

Which would it make it much easier to build little cartel where all can set same lower RTP with little secret deal which of course doesn't exist in real, then making something else which gain more profit for them like have less staff and slower payments, but it doesn't matter as there is no other options available.

That's just one thing what seem to happen when there are few enough competitors in business, in Finland one big one at least used to be petrol stations who were amazingly similar priced (if i recall right, they got busted and got penalties) but when there are few enough left, it often can end up to result where is no need to have huge fight between each others but let's all have same prices and we get around equal market share. Much less risk for companies to be friends between each others behind the scenes when there are few enough to have decent share for all instead of spending loads of money for competition.
 
Which would it make it much easier to build little cartel where all can set same lower RTP with little secret deal which of course doesn't exist in real, then making something else which gain more profit for them like have less staff and slower payments, but it doesn't matter as there is no other options available.

That's just one thing what seem to happen when there are few enough competitors in business, in Finland one big one at least used to be petrol stations who were amazingly similar priced (if i recall right, they got busted and got penalties) but when there are few enough left, it often can end up to result where is no need to have huge fight between each others but let's all have same prices and we get around equal market share. Much less risk for companies to be friends between each others behind the scenes when there are few enough to have decent share for all instead of spending loads of money for competition.
So, many casinos, low rtp to stay in business.
Few casinos, low rtp because cartel.
You are a real optimist i hear.

Dont worry, ill start a casino running full rtp and steal the customers from the others.
Players will get to play with full rtp, and i get rich.
Win-win.
 
So, many casinos, low rtp to stay in business.
Few casinos, low rtp because cartel.
You are a real optimist i hear.

Dont worry, ill start a casino running full rtp and steal the customers from the others.
Players will get to play with full rtp, and i get rich.
Win-win.

Just sell their KYC/SOW data and use it to subsidise the higher RTP's?

If you get caught just say, like the packet of Rolo's, 'i lost 'em guvnor'

I'll be in contact later to talk strategy.
 
So, many casinos, low rtp to stay in business.
Few casinos, low rtp because cartel.
You are a real optimist i hear.

Dont worry, ill start a casino running full rtp and steal the customers from the others.
Players will get to play with full rtp, and i get rich.
Win-win.

Stated that if you have only few companies, it's been seen many times that competition don't really exist anymore, why could that be? That was speculation about your post where only few casinos are left, now situation is not that and there is competition.

Maybe you could start great casino business as it seem to be so easy with guaranteed few percent winning margins, will promise to deposit at least once :) Here just seem to quite common opinion that running casino is great business where you just sit down and look how your bank accounts balance is growing and growing, wonder what they did wrong who got out of business, it shouldn't be possible when your RTP is under 100%

Clearly here is loads of expertise about casino business and how it only can be easy to make money, why not to give it a try?
 
Then volatility is other question, with 100 spins, do you most probably get 0 wins and monster volatility slot don't cough up anything under 10 000x or do we get game without any volatility that every spin you win 98 of your bet.

Hopefully something between these, RTP itself just don't only judge how much playtime or entertainment you are getting, many games feel for many players much more entertaining and nicer to play when you get some even half decent wins quite often even total RTP is lower, instead of some extreme volatility one with higher RTP but you can see 25 dead spins in row all the time and then get win half of your stake.

For entertainment and excitement point of view, these game maths, hit frequencies etc... can be way more important than 1-3% in theoretical RTP.

This is a great point...

A low volatility game at 92% could feel much better than a high volatility game at 97%, simply because a lot of RTP will be in the high wins you get very rarely...

RTP is not, and should not be, the only thing you look at.

Sadly, there is no real consensus on how to measure volatility... other than a simple LOW / MED / HIGH / VERY HIGH, there is no real numerical value you can put on it unless all providers were to use the same formula...
 
It's a 3.5% guaranteed house edge on very popular random games, I very much doubt it's loss making.


Well, there are two very well-known up and coming UK streamers who both play at Genesis Casinos and claim that RTP is meaningless. Total ignorance from most, unfortunately.

This sounds like ignorance (as you say) or just downright lying to the viewers, and the more tin-foil of us could even posit that they are encouraged by the casino to say such things...
 
Sadly, there is no real consensus on how to measure volatility... other than a simple LOW / MED / HIGH / VERY HIGH, there is no real numerical value you can put on it unless all providers were to use the same formula...

Would be one nice thing if all providers (and casino operators) would have same measures when providing their volatility in same format, it would make it easier for players to take that on account as well. Now there are many games which are another site categorized as very high volatility and other high volatility or some Medium and other site High etc..

RTP have to be informed correctly by regulations but volatility is pretty much casino to decide where they make line between medium and high for all providers (who give it to you all in their own format)...
 

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