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- Jun 3, 2013
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- Dún Dealgan
Great session there Chops...And some really nice hits!!! 
Part 4 can't come soon enough.
Part 4 can't come soon enough.
My online slots videos (plus UK AWPs)
- Thread starter ChopleyIOM
- Start date
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- Oct 12, 2012
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- Scotland
Yes yes yes here you go you nagging old fishwife!
What a run!
Sure you're not on the 3Dice payroll mate?
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2012
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- IOM
Yes it was a pretty sweet run, but as I (think) I say in the video, the kind of run that you'd see once in a while in years gone by.
Part 4 should be online this evening.
Part 4 should be online this evening.
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2012
- Location
- IOM
And here's Part 4. Ended up being a fair few hours of slotting!
DONUTS NOTES - Regarding my comments about Donuts in this video. BTG state very clearly that all issues reported on the slot are exclusively graphical in nature and payouts have never been affected. They also state that all issues were quickly corrected and that the slot is now functioning entirely as intended.
DONUTS NOTES - Regarding my comments about Donuts in this video. BTG state very clearly that all issues reported on the slot are exclusively graphical in nature and payouts have never been affected. They also state that all issues were quickly corrected and that the slot is now functioning entirely as intended.
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- Joined
- May 22, 2012
Nothing to with stakes Choppers - it's more to do with players using bonus money, getting near the trigger and then leaving it only to return at a later date with cash-only deposits to reap the feature returns. Hence why Tomb Raider 2 and coin-drop games like White Rabbit are always prohibited under bonus wagering.
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2012
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- IOM
Ahhh right that makes sense, thinking back maybe 3Dice restricted Ching Ching on the stake change from very early on but the bonus rule change came later?
It wasn't a big problem but I did like myself a bit of Ching Ching back in the day, that forced 50%/200% wager at the end of the round was something interesting and unique.
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2013
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- Dún Dealgan
Actually I never tried 3dice but your videos have made me decided to make an account and give them a whirl.
No spectacular slots but it seems they give a lot of playtime, especially the lower variance slots.
Always wanted to try that Ice Queen slot anyway, never got to play it yet. However I realize that is one of the harder slots to score on due to the volatility of it.
Might better start with something less volatile..Got a good idea of the slots watching your videos.
No spectacular slots but it seems they give a lot of playtime, especially the lower variance slots.
Always wanted to try that Ice Queen slot anyway, never got to play it yet. However I realize that is one of the harder slots to score on due to the volatility of it.
Might better start with something less volatile..Got a good idea of the slots watching your videos.
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2017
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
I have been really lucky in getting 100 freespins at 10x multiplier in the tournys on Arctic Adventure recently. I have hit it like a few times when I played there over a month ago. I have hit it once on real money play over a year ago for a total of $334+ on a 40 cent bet. The slots are fun, but when they are dead... It is tough!
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2013
- Location
- Dún Dealgan
Oh dear, I have 2 daughters (twins) but they are only 7.
If I listen to your daughter I can only assume what two of 'em would sound like.
And congratz on the WD..Great result with only patience and low rolling.
If I listen to your daughter I can only assume what two of 'em would sound like.
And congratz on the WD..Great result with only patience and low rolling.
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2013
- Location
- Dún Dealgan
Made my first deposit and I am NOT a bonus player at all but to enhance my game time (I hope), I took the 110%.
Only deposited 25 quid so I got €52.50 to play with.
Will start on those minimum bets and see how it goes.
Only deposited 25 quid so I got €52.50 to play with.
Will start on those minimum bets and see how it goes.
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2013
- Location
- Dún Dealgan
Not gonna ruin your topic but after already a couple of 3 scatter triggers I got 4 scatters shy 150 spins in and already my first 100x stake + win..
Also balance did not even go down in those 150 spins. ^^
On Donuts I was most likely already gone and busted. LoL
Also balance did not even go down in those 150 spins. ^^
On Donuts I was most likely already gone and busted. LoL
- Joined
- May 10, 2014
- Location
- UK
Absolutely agree, mismatching stakes to balance is one of the biggest issues with modern slots - with so many providers to pick from, it doesn't take much to find one that pushes most of the RTP into obscure bonus rounds or jackpot features, and before you know it a streak of dead spins ends your session!
As an exercise for the reader, I was curious and trying to "peg" variance to stakes across some slots and casino games, I (as a guesstimate) came up with:
* €0.10 on Donuts
* €0.30 on Immortal Romance
* €0.75 on Twin Spin
* €2.00 on Starburst
* €4.00 for a single number in Roulette
* €50.00 for table game "even chances" (for simplicity - I appreciate that Blackjack, Baccarat and Roulette 50/50 also have differing variances, I imagine that would be a thread on its own!)
On the same topic - I'd spotted "Berryburst Max - Bigger Hits" doing the rounds this week, but was curious as I'd never heard of the original... It's actually a double release under the new "MAX - Bigger Hits" branding, same game design but with two different pay tables.
If you want an idea of how silly things are getting on this front, check Outdated URL (Invalid) out...
I was also thinking back to the discussion years ago about Avalon 2 and the 1 in 2,555,120,700 chance of getting a full screen of wilds for 16,200 times stake. Absolute monster in the pay table, and yet only consumes 0.00063% RTP because it is so incredibly rare. As Mr Chopley once said...
One advantage I would hope with the HTML5 slots is that it'll be easier for the curious to pull reel strips and other information out of the game - assuming they are standard reels of course!
I would be curious how many of the YouTube or Twitch channels make viewers aware of all of the following:
* Whether they have commercial relationships with the operators, e.g. being advertised in NetEnt or Big Time Gaming marketing material
* How the channel is funded, e.g. sponsorships, affiliate links
* For the current session - how much was deposited, did they take a bonus, what are the terms of that bonus, and is that bonus available to anyone, someone (e.g. VIP members) or no-one
* For the past period of time, such as 6 or 12 months, what their lifetime profit or loss is.
I don't expect them to be mentioning it every five minutes, but I suspect too many of them aren't showing their full hand either. I appreciate those that have been transparent about this stuff... it is pretty eye-opening to hear about streamers that have lost £100k to the slots, only to make that back two-fold from affiliate links!
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2012
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- IOM
Not gonna ruin your topic but after already a couple of 3 scatter triggers I got 4 scatters shy 150 spins in and already my first 100x stake + win..
Also balance did not even go down in those 150 spins. ^^
The thing with Fortune Falls is that whilst it plays almost like Starburst in how its variance feels, it can and will drop 400x-1600x into your lap once in a while. (Which of course is completely impossible on Starburst, which has a 500x stake theoretical max pay, but in reality appears to have never paid more than 300x stake.)
Even the tamest 3Dice slots (and Fortune Falls is one of the tamest) have decent wins on the paytable.
If you watched all of the Part 4 video you'll have seen a classic example of 3Dice suction (where Enchanted Spins took apart £230 of my bankroll on 40p spins with scarcely a whiff of a decent pay), so you do really need to be aware of how their medium-higher variance slots can behave on a bad run - but slots like Fortune Falls, Wild Waves and Payola are a pretty safe bet for good playtime whilst still maintaining a decent chance of hitting a solid win. (Payola has a really cool sound-to-light graphical style going on as well.)
Great post there Jason with many good points. TBH I have little to zero time for affiliated channels, (or indeed any slotting/gambling channel where the creator has any financial 'skin in the game' whatsoever, be it big bonuses or sponsorship or anything else), it's a 'crossing of the streams' that just doesn't sit very well with me.
As for the variance debate, I think a wide spread of variance (to a point!) in slots is a good thing, so players can choose their experience based on their preference, the mood they're in, the bankroll they've got on any particular day - and so on.
Where the wheels come off the wagon for me is nutcase feature frequency such as Bonanza (1/460), and vague talk of UNLIMITED MULTIPLIERS and UNLIMITED WIN POTENTIAL which IMO is pure horseshit and a very disingenuous way of describing a slot. (I'd love to see the feature pay distribution for Bonanza up at the very high end, and see what it manages under simulated conditions.)
To give you an idea, 3Dice have an 'achievements' system whereby you get real money NDBs if certain things happen on their slots in any given month. One of these is called 'Patience' and is awarded if any of their video slots go more than 500 spins without triggering a feature. I got this during the Part 4 video above, as Enchanted Spins went 887 spins without a feature - and for that I got a £10 NDB with 1xWR. (The cash value of these achievements increases with VIP loyalty level, and I'm down at Bronze 5 star at the moment.)
Bonanza does that many spins without a feature on a regular basis because, of course it does, since its average trigger frequency is 1/460. It's absolutely crackers IMO and I have no idea why players put up with it. (The financial success of that slot is utterly mystifying to me.)
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- Joined
- Mar 25, 2012
- Location
- IOM
Just a final note on the 3Dice session, i.e. Did I get paid and how long did it take. (Winning at the casino is all very well and good, but it's not really a win until the cash is in your hands).
I made the withdrawal at 12pm yesterday and 3Dice paid at 5am this morning, so that's a 17 hour paytime for a withdrawal of nearly £1000. Note that this was my first logon and deposit there for over four years, and I was playing on a bonus with a deposit of just £100 - the sort of scenario that might invoke some sort of 'send us your docs' response from some casinos....
However, no fuss, no faff - and I've got my cash.
I made the withdrawal at 12pm yesterday and 3Dice paid at 5am this morning, so that's a 17 hour paytime for a withdrawal of nearly £1000. Note that this was my first logon and deposit there for over four years, and I was playing on a bonus with a deposit of just £100 - the sort of scenario that might invoke some sort of 'send us your docs' response from some casinos....
However, no fuss, no faff - and I've got my cash.
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2013
- Location
- Dún Dealgan
Yes I found Enchanted Spins the hardest slot so far. It was pretty hard to trigger the 3 dragons and when I did, no big wins came out of the pick me feature yet.
Had 2 wizzards a few times on reel 2,3 but not on 2,4 yet to give me the full 3 reels wild.
I was completely unfamiliar with 3Dice slots but I am impressed by the simplicity of their slots and I am glad I have signed up.
Already played a good 2,5 hours yesterday with only a 25 Euro deposit and that €27.50 bonus attached to it.
My balance when I signed off last night was still €106.35 and will continue tonight.
Left to wager €985.36 so I managed already to complete 1/3th of WR.
Funky Fives gave me a few very nice hits on the sticky wilds, had all 3 reels filled but that was only for 1 spin though.
And no 5 bars yet, had a couple of 4OAK's.
And yes I did see that big dip in your balance on enchanted reels but I also saw it then recovered a decent bit.
If I would make it through the WR I will honor any WD coming from it as the Chopley Special.
- Joined
- May 22, 2012
The RTP effect of giant potential wins is very tiny which I did actually point out to Chopley in another post; as you state due to their insane infrequency they use an almost infinitesimally small portion of long-term RTP for the player.
IIRC we looked at the reel maps of MG's Cashapillar once and it was around 1/4.17bn to get a full screen of wilds for 2000x. When we factored in the chance of getting it in FS of which on average you'd be playing (with retriggers included) 16 in every 310 spins it fell to 1/80bn to land it in a bonus on 3x multiplier for 6000x.
As for YT I can honestly say 'yes' to all the above.
I stated repeatedly that I was not and never had been paid for new slot reviews by any developer; any paid work (rare) would have been carried out privately in pre-release development. The public video was never paid and all major developers had their games reviewed routinely as they appeared.
The channel was openly funded by affiliate income, again no secret there and I even started a debate by publishing a video explaining what kind of deal we had and how the income stream worked. This was controversial but to be fair on them people like Rocknrolla and The Bandit did chip in and the latter even made his own video backing up my explanations.
I would always mention the deposit and if I had had 'dead play' deposits previous to filming which made no video material I would state how much this combined amount was since the last withdrawal. I'd back this up with view of the account history to show the amounts in and out. I had to do this especially when having the mad winning run on Bonanza back in May/June because viewers couldn't believe it so I did a detailed view of the withdrawals and even the game log history to demonstrate the big wins.
If I was using a bonus I would always inform the viewer (this was quite rare as not a big bonus taker personally) and flash in the remaining wagering as I made the video. Most bonus videos would be when openly promoting a new casino and taking the SUB.
In one of my last videos I did also show my 2017-18 balance which was an overall loss of 24.1k. I do my accounts April-April in line with the tax year and recently showed my Casumo deposit-against-withdrawals stats so far this 2018-19 year which were just over 200 up.
If you had a YT channel Jason you'd realize that despite being able to check your boxes above so-to-speak this was and never would be good enough for haters and trolls. The fact I gamble in public is enough excuse for them and even more inflammatory is the fact I openly earn money from the industry - whether I do this in a compliant manner or not is irrelevant to most of them, they will still get their torches and pitchforks out.
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2010
- Location
- Mostly the Netherlands
Just skimming through here..but i'm sure you're now glad i encouraged you to go take a looksie, right?
Awesome 'return' and very happy you had a nice run mate!
3Dice totally rocks..their WD's will always be around that time-frame though, depending on time of cash-out, as they only process during the day (06:00 in the morning 'til about 18:00 as far as i know) for EU players. But don't quote me on that - all i know is i never have to wait longer then 24 hours, and mostly it's quite instant, as i usually play in the wee hours, and then cash-out before i go to sleep
Apart from their awesome and unique slots, the VP is also quite good -if you're in to that...And the Loyalty bonuses, low WR's (10x on average for loyalty related rewards) chat and 24/7 free tournaments will ensure you have a bang for your buck - always. And don't forget the achievements you showed in your screenie a few posts back! The rewarsds of those also increase if you rise in VIP level
Knock me P.M. if your there playing!
Actually I never tried 3dice but your videos have made me decided to make an account and give them a whirl.
No spectacular slots but it seems they give a lot of playtime, especially the lower variance slots.
Always wanted to try that Ice Queen slot anyway, never got to play it yet. However I realize that is one of the harder slots to score on due to the volatility of it.
Might better start with something less volatile..Got a good idea of the slots watching your videos.
Hey mate! good to see you're having fun, but beware! There's no such thing as a Low Variance Slot in 3Dice, no matter what Chopley might have said in the vid's
Med to med high at best! And you'll find out soon enough - i recommend to indeed stick to sensible, low stakes, and wait till the first 500 or 1000x + hits you
My recipe for most sessions is deposit small, either with or without bonus, then start to try and boost my bankroll on the Slots Squirrel Pike, and Funky Five..
Simply because they can be played for 09 cents and 05 cents respectively, and can easily boost your bankroll with a decent 50 bux hit on that stake..then it's time for the Ice Queen or another beast
Same for you, if your playing come say hi in chat!
- Joined
- May 10, 2014
- Location
- UK
Absolutely - although players have little to no chance of finding information on variance profiles for sixteen million* different slots (* estimated) given how convoluted it is to find accurate RTP information for each slot - and that is a UKGC regulatory requirement!
When we are talking about Microgaming (as with Immortal Romance, Avalon II and Cashapillar), I'd agree because they are designed to be rare hits... have we seen a full screen of wilds in Avalon II yet?
When we consider some of the other operators - and my first thought would be Red Tiger - I suspect the picture is very different. The sheer volume of dead spins and micro-wins, combined with multiple five-of-a-kind line pays of less than stake, suggest the RTP is being pushed up the pay table.
Speaking of Red Tiger - I know Chopley mentioned BTG's Donuts, I've seen "skipping" reels on a number of Red Tiger slots, I've also seen a game malfunction in Laser Fruits where the game history clearly shows a win of 4 ways of 4 single bars, but the game paid zero. I followed this up with live support who claimed it wasn't a malfunction and had paid correctly!?! That'll be £1.60 I won't be getting back...
I would think many people would skip over those "dry" videos, but I feel they are important as to show both sides of the coin and I applaud the three of you for doing them.
I wonder how many people would know that a self-styled "streaming community" is 51% owned by LeoVegas (paid £2.7m in December 2017) while watching one of their hundreds of "Biggest Wins" videos (you would have to go back more than 150 videos - into the year 2016 - to find one that didn't have the words "Biggest" "Wins" in the title).
Or similarly, a "casino family" who are streaming in shifts 10 to 14 hours a day, frequently with an exclusive bonus, and some of them are barely risking their own money in the deposit due to staking agreements with other members of the team! To be fair, it would be difficult to find anything useful amongst the forty casinos they are currently promoting!
So true... I was talking from a rational viewer perspective, nothing will ever be good enough for the haters!
- Joined
- May 22, 2012
Yes, you are referring to Casino Grounds which was purchased by LV in 2107 IIRC. This did raise numerous comments as to whether it was ethical to have a casino operating a streaming channel directly rather than independent affiliates who could vary or pick and choose between those casinos whom they opt to do business with. I also think it was a risky investment considering the fragility of relying on YT to allow revenue streams in gambling.
You can make it clear on YT if a channel or video is sponsored but it still remains an affiliate enterprise, even if the risk is spread amongst a selection of different streaming channels.
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2012
- Location
- IOM
An appraisal of the issues reported with Donuts, an update on my 3Dice cashout, and some HIGH INTENSITY Video Poker action. *
* Intensity of Video Poker action may be overstated.
* Intensity of Video Poker action may be overstated.
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2013
- Location
- Dún Dealgan
Oh dear..
Will check it out before commencing my quest to wager another 975 quid with a 105 quid bankroll at 3dice. 
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2012
- Location
- IOM
I do believe the 3Dice revival is in full swing
I lost the first £50 eventually so deposited another £50, and when I stopped it autoplaying last night the second £50 deposit had recovered to £100. So it'd been running for about 5 hours in total playing 50p hands of Jacks or Better and I'd lost precisely zero pence
No Royal Flush yet though!
In fact, I've just pulled my play history and it played over 2000 hands during during the course of the afternoon and evening, and achieved an RTP of precisely 100%.
Chopley...it's your thread and your videos and you get to say what you want but you're wrong about about a couple of things and, well, we're here to discuss aren't we?
First, Bonanza is not a crazy high variance slot and I've no idea why you keep implying that. The reason why it's immensely popular is because it's entertaining to play (something I personally couldn't say about any 3Dice slot, but to each their own). You make it sound like it's DOA variance and people keep playing a shitty boring slot with the hope of hitting a 10,000x win to get their money back. Come on now, you may have been influenced a bit too much by chronic complainers in the Bonanza thread. It's a very popular slot so you had to expect a lot of that kind of people to pop. Most of us who like the game don't even read that thread, let alone post counter-arguments in it.
Second, fans of the game can live with the low bonus frequency as a trade-off for the potential generated by the Megaways in the base game. I'm ok with that because I like the base game. Play time on it is usually good, too.
Third, it's OK to not like BTG games but you kind of went on a crusade against them armed with the wrong weapons. They only have 2 games with crazy high variance and they are not very popular, the rest is med-high and they act like it.
Finally, the max single win on Reactoonz is 800x and it's one of the most brutal slot out there. Big wins on the paytable isn't always related to play time.
Ok I'm done, for now
First, Bonanza is not a crazy high variance slot and I've no idea why you keep implying that. The reason why it's immensely popular is because it's entertaining to play (something I personally couldn't say about any 3Dice slot, but to each their own). You make it sound like it's DOA variance and people keep playing a shitty boring slot with the hope of hitting a 10,000x win to get their money back. Come on now, you may have been influenced a bit too much by chronic complainers in the Bonanza thread. It's a very popular slot so you had to expect a lot of that kind of people to pop. Most of us who like the game don't even read that thread, let alone post counter-arguments in it.
Second, fans of the game can live with the low bonus frequency as a trade-off for the potential generated by the Megaways in the base game. I'm ok with that because I like the base game. Play time on it is usually good, too.
Third, it's OK to not like BTG games but you kind of went on a crusade against them armed with the wrong weapons. They only have 2 games with crazy high variance and they are not very popular, the rest is med-high and they act like it.
Finally, the max single win on Reactoonz is 800x and it's one of the most brutal slot out there. Big wins on the paytable isn't always related to play time.
Ok I'm done, for now
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- Joined
- Mar 25, 2012
- Location
- IOM
Of course we're here to discuss things
I don't consider this 'my thread' as it's nothing without the input of other CM members!Yes I was prepared to accept it wasn't that high variance but dunover expressed the opinion that any slot with the hit potential of Bonanza has to be considered a HV slot.
As for it being entertaining to play, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that!
It's not a crusade against Bonanza specifically, it just happens to be the most visible example of what I object to in slot design, and it's a slot I've got decent personal play experience of.
1/460 is a truly dire feature frequency and to have it just grinding through so much RTP in the base game with the odd decent hit 'because' of the Megaways (which is just a stupid extension of 243 way slots in my eyes and not a particularly good one at that) doesn't cut it with me. I'd rather get a high paying 5OAK on a proper lines slot.
There are multiple screenshots of it doing 1500x stake and more, and it routinely does that in the VS races.
- Joined
- May 22, 2012
Bonanza is indeed a high variance game over all, but to compensate as Balt says the base game is unusually high in RTP terms at around 71%. The second clue to its volatility is the 6OAK pays - you have one standout pay of 50x for 6OAK diamonds which is 6.67x the second-highest, the rubies at 7.5x. This spread is always indicative of a 'two tier' pay structure, as it makes the colossal pays very rare. I have a ball park figure of the player seeing 1 or more ways of 6OAK diamonds once in about every 25,000 spins and that's just in the base game. Factor in to that you are playing on average 12-17 spins with a multiplier every 460 spins and you can see how incredibly rare it is to see 6OAK diamonds in the bonus. This is why those 10k x bet wins have little effect on the RTP generally as they are paid for with a tiny fraction of turnover, almost like Chopley said a form of 'jackpots' built in.
Take another example of a HV game, Dead On Arrival - it's very similar to Bonanza as far as the base game goes with decent balance maintenance but structures the bonuses differently with them being just over 3x more frequent but with a 3x less average return. So two variations of a game with high volatility but a different bonus frequency and that volatility is applied in main to the bonus. Bonanza has a more volatile base game than DoA too, as DoA cannot pay 500-2500x bet in its base game. Out of the two Bonanza is more volatile overall but the player's perception of that volatility is tempered with base game performance. If we add Novo's Book Of Ra Deluxe in to the equation, it's actually less volatile in bonus terms than either of the two aforementioned games but because they like to give free spins that are both regular and decent-paying the base game has only around 50% of the RTP and therefore to the player the impression of volatility is far greater than DoA or Bonanza due to the battering you often take when features aren't arriving. That's why I call it 'Book Of Robbery'....
Take another example of a HV game, Dead On Arrival - it's very similar to Bonanza as far as the base game goes with decent balance maintenance but structures the bonuses differently with them being just over 3x more frequent but with a 3x less average return. So two variations of a game with high volatility but a different bonus frequency and that volatility is applied in main to the bonus. Bonanza has a more volatile base game than DoA too, as DoA cannot pay 500-2500x bet in its base game. Out of the two Bonanza is more volatile overall but the player's perception of that volatility is tempered with base game performance. If we add Novo's Book Of Ra Deluxe in to the equation, it's actually less volatile in bonus terms than either of the two aforementioned games but because they like to give free spins that are both regular and decent-paying the base game has only around 50% of the RTP and therefore to the player the impression of volatility is far greater than DoA or Bonanza due to the battering you often take when features aren't arriving. That's why I call it 'Book Of Robbery'....
- Joined
- May 10, 2014
- Location
- UK
I would agree with Bonanza being high but not crazy high variance. Some people have suggested it as a wagering slot - I'm not sure I'd go that far, but it's certainly not in DOA territory.
BWP had an article about Dead or Alive with some numbers:
* Base RTP: 53.7% lines + ~12.8% non-triggering scatters = 66.5%
* Bonus RTP: ~4.6% triggering scatters + 25.7% free spins = 30.3%
* Bonus Frequency: 1 in 152 spins
* Retrigger Frequency: 1 in 45 bonuses
Compare that with Bonanza Jr (Extra Chilli):
* Bonus Frequency: 1 in 230 spins
* Bonus Buy: 50 x stake, 96.82% RTP (optimal, 96.26% assuming no gambles) = 48.41x return
* Bonus RTP: 48.41x / 230 = 21.0%
* Base RTP: ~75.4%
If anyone has the Bonus RTP for Bonanza itself (with the 1 in 460 spins bonus frequency), would be an interesting comparison.
I don't think anyone would consider it a medium variance slot - but there are other slots imho more suited to the very/crazy/ultra high variance tag - Dead or Alive we've already mentioned, Donuts would be one, I think Book of Gods (also BTG) would be another, some of the Merkur offerings may also be in that category.
- Joined
- May 8, 2018
- Location
- south east england
If 71 % rtp is for bonanza's base game with a 460 spin average for the bonus to occur, do the following maths make sense: 460 x£2 stake = £920 -71% = 653.2 returned to player = 266.8 loss, then minus from this the 100x average win* for the bonus round £200 =66.8 profit for the casino. 4% house edge = £8 per 100 spins x 4.6 = 36.8; so there's £30 extra taken from somewhere which equates to 3% rtp 
I would be interested if btg could have played with the figures to make a more player friendly version with a higher bonus frequency, or maybe brought out a version where you could play 10p a spin.
* this figure is based on hearing dunover mention it in his vids
I would be interested if btg could have played with the figures to make a more player friendly version with a higher bonus frequency, or maybe brought out a version where you could play 10p a spin.
* this figure is based on hearing dunover mention it in his vids
- Joined
- May 22, 2012
Basically Bonanza has around 25% RTP allocated in the feature. It pays an average long-term of just over 100x bet. At an average of >400 spins @ 96% blah blah (Mack already broke this down above) the figures do tally, although they are rounded up and down which accounts for the 'missing 3%'.
For example if it was 71.41% in the base and 24.59% in the feature you would find most of that missing 3%.
Those figures Jason quotes are usually provided by people pulling say a million or two spins with a bot from the RNG (unless provided directly from the developer's testing and compliance auditing) - I used to have the programme myself and tried it on DoA although I got slightly different results than above.
As you can see EC is like a 'half' Bonanza in essence. I have always called Bonanza 'HV' myself, if you want very high go to games like BDBA or Magic Mirror etc.
As for a 'player friendly' version of Bonanza, Mack - isn't that exactly what they've done with EC? Bonanza is a brutally honest slot: you get a decent feature return and a decent base game but the caveat is you don't get the feature often, it does exactly what it says on the tin. Netent decided not to have a rare feature on DoA so gave you a more frequent one, same potential but with far more disappointing outcomes.
The WORST thing any developer can do with games like Bonanza is 'pad' the game out, i.e. due to feature rarity they make it appear more often but with a wheel or something that gives you either free spins or usually some crappy coin prize. If nothing else, Bonanza is a brutal but very honest slot!
For example if it was 71.41% in the base and 24.59% in the feature you would find most of that missing 3%.
Those figures Jason quotes are usually provided by people pulling say a million or two spins with a bot from the RNG (unless provided directly from the developer's testing and compliance auditing) - I used to have the programme myself and tried it on DoA although I got slightly different results than above.
As you can see EC is like a 'half' Bonanza in essence. I have always called Bonanza 'HV' myself, if you want very high go to games like BDBA or Magic Mirror etc.
As for a 'player friendly' version of Bonanza, Mack - isn't that exactly what they've done with EC? Bonanza is a brutally honest slot: you get a decent feature return and a decent base game but the caveat is you don't get the feature often, it does exactly what it says on the tin. Netent decided not to have a rare feature on DoA so gave you a more frequent one, same potential but with far more disappointing outcomes.
The WORST thing any developer can do with games like Bonanza is 'pad' the game out, i.e. due to feature rarity they make it appear more often but with a wheel or something that gives you either free spins or usually some crappy coin prize. If nothing else, Bonanza is a brutal but very honest slot!
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Aye it is kind of, but I hate the bonus gamble which is more btg gerrymandering
, 8 spins is over in a flash 
but who wants to gamble and lose a bonus it's just taken an hour to land , talk about removing the 'fun'.That's the end result of a bunch of cascades (which is essentially a mini bonus round), where someone hit the high paying stuff on many of them. That's no different than hitting twice a 5OAK on Arctic Adventure during the same bonus, for example.
Max pay is 15+ pink monsters for 750x.
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I thought that was a given TBH. I wouldn't describe a 100 spins 10x Arctic round as 200x + 350x + 100x etc etc, I'd just describe the round total as the pay.
Same principle applies to Reactoonz, and in the case of Bonanza those mega-hits are going to be the result of building up the multiplier and many wins.
When talking about hit potential and variance, we're usually not talking about the result of a bunch of independent successive wins.
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- Oct 10, 2012
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- London
That's the end result of a bunch of cascades (which is essentially a mini bonus round), where someone hit the high paying stuff on many of them. That's no different than hitting twice a 5OAK on Arctic Adventure during the same bonus, for example.
Max pay is 15+ pink monsters for 750x.
Couldnt you hit 15 pinks and, say 12 greens simultaneously on the same “spins” (not bonus module) to increase the spin win?
Maybe, I don't know. I guess in theory you could get a full screen of pinks, too. The volatility on that game is strange. There are very little balance-maintaining wins with a very large part of the RTP in the Gargatoon bonus round (so I'd say usually between 100-1000x for the bonus). So you get a game where nearly the whole RTP is in wins below 5x and over 100x. That's a very tough slot.
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I think the max win is 15+ pinks, so more wouldnt make any odds, but other wins more so. Had the Gargatoon about 25 times, top win so far 700x. Usual is 150 ish to 300x
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- May 13, 2014
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max pay is 15 pinks but doubled if there is a 2x2 block of them so 1,500x stake for one "collection"
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- Mar 25, 2012
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But surely the overall profile of a slot in terms of hit potential and variance, as far as the player is concerned, is what does any particular feature, or free spins round, or chain event etc actually pay?
So whilst the chains in Reactoonz and the 10x 100 spins round in Arctic are a load of independent events chained together, (well, we know they are in Arctic, but who has any idea how Reactoonz actually works under the hood?), as far as we're concerned they're a single round and we think of them as a single pay.
If anything, the way video slots are designed (and even more so in the case of modern slots like Reactoonz and Bonanza), it's impossible to think about hit potential and variance any other way?
In case of Bonanza the massive wins (let's say 2000x +) that take a chunk of the TRTP aren't grinded over the length of a bonus round, they appear as single hits once in a blue moon. (I'd be guessing at about the same rate of a 4 wild reels Wild Desire on IR?). I'd even go as far as saying that you're more likely to hit 5 Wild Reels on IR than getting a 10,000x win on Bonanza.
Take DHV for example, a game that you brought up in the Donuts thread. Sure there's this massive 20,000x hit on Youtube but I've watched several hundreds of bonus rounds on that game and I can count on one hand the number of times that I've seen it break 1,000x and I can't remember seeing 2000x or more once. It's super, super rare for it to go over 1k stake and likely on par with most 3Dice games. So if people lose money quickly on that game (and I'm one of them!) it's not because of the ultra high variance of the slot (just like Reactoonz or Fat Rabbit). Back when I was playing NetEnt games I remember losing money lightning fast on shitty low potential games like Wonky Wabbits or Fistycuffs... and it sure wasn't because of the high variance of those slots but because of how the paytable was built.
The point I'm trying to make here is you overstate the case of those massive wins in the paytable of modern games. I fully understand what you are trying to explain to people but it's just not accurate (IMO). If people would play Queen of Riches or Star Quest all the time and complain that their money don't last then you'd be 100% correct.
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- Joined
- Oct 20, 2010
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- UK
That's the end result of a bunch of cascades (which is essentially a mini bonus round), where someone hit the high paying stuff on many of them. That's no different than hitting twice a 5OAK on Arctic Adventure during the same bonus, for example.
Max pay is 15+ pink monsters for 750x.
On Reactoonz a square block makes it x2 for 1500x it can also drop multiple big wins in one go, heres a screen of my 1500x +750x (2362x)
*ninja edit: added a x2 shot as well.
x2
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- Joined
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As best I can recall I don't think I've specifically insisted on a regular basis that it's the massive wins that are buggering up modern slots in terms of delivering awful playtime, shit feature frequency, and bankroll destroying behaviour with the player feeling like there's never any hope of recovery. I remember we were talking about 'NetEnt Variance' years ago whereby they started churning out slots that would take your balance apart on sensible stakes with a decent bankroll, and yet be missing much in the way of potential to deliver hits that explained their behaviour.
I have gone on about wins of 5000-15000x stake being a waste of RTP for most people (however small that amount of RTP is), because it's borderline lottery odds to actually hit them so you may as well just play a progressive.
The very fact wins of 1000x and 2000x are so incredibly rare on the likes of Bonanza and DHV is kind of my point, since 3Dice's slots can (and do!) generate those hits but also manage to deliver excellent playtime and a really good solid range of hits in the 100-500x range. (If Bonanza and other BTG slots had delivered the kind of run for someone I had at 3Dice earlier in the week, people would be shouting from the rooftops about it.)
Tangentially, I don't like the way slots get so many updates these days either. They should be launched 100% functional and should never need to be dicked about with IMO.
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I was just going to look at jimbo casinos win on dead or alive, iirc over £40,000 at £7 stake, to query whether huge stake wins could affect the base game rtp performance on netent games for low rollers [I know this foil theory was discussed in the trance monkey thread] but it looks like jimbo's been terminated.
J
Jory
Guest
Does anyone even remember how 6-7 years ago most people complained about how 3Dice was too volatile? It was the modern day BTG.
A lot of the complaints were about people depositing and getting no game time and switching back to microgaming download casinos. Oh boy how things have changed....
I truly do enjoy the high volatile modern day slots. The "Hit big or bust" mentality. It means you can make a minimum deposit of £10 and cash out £1000. It means triggering a bonus round is something to genuinely get excited about, and not just preloading your spreadsheet ready to enter "16X".
Triggering the bonus round on Bonanza will always give a nice endorphin rush because with a 100X average payout you know anything can happen and, within a fair degree of regularity, it does. It never is about hitting the progressive of RTP, but simply about getting those 200x+ wins.
But what I hate more than anything else when it comes to gambling, is depositing for a nights entertainment and while your first beer is still cold, your balance has hit £0. My attitude to combat this while still making small deposits and playing high volatile games, is to simply play as slow as possible.
You can easily triple your "game time" by simply avoiding things like quick spinning and auto play. Instead you should treat each and every spin as it's own unique event. Many people wait days after buying a lottery ticket despite the odds being in the millions, waiting a few extra seconds for a 450/1 event can still be enjoyable if you start from the beginning with that approach.
Notice how no casino has a "slow play" feature. It's always about playing as fast as possible as that's what makes them money and makes you lose and decide to redeposit.
Many times simply playing slow has given me a nights entertainment without the need to redeposit. I know to most people it will seem so boring that they would rather just lose, but I try to look at gambling as a long term thing rather than single sessions.
A lot of the complaints were about people depositing and getting no game time and switching back to microgaming download casinos. Oh boy how things have changed....
I truly do enjoy the high volatile modern day slots. The "Hit big or bust" mentality. It means you can make a minimum deposit of £10 and cash out £1000. It means triggering a bonus round is something to genuinely get excited about, and not just preloading your spreadsheet ready to enter "16X".
Triggering the bonus round on Bonanza will always give a nice endorphin rush because with a 100X average payout you know anything can happen and, within a fair degree of regularity, it does. It never is about hitting the progressive of RTP, but simply about getting those 200x+ wins.
But what I hate more than anything else when it comes to gambling, is depositing for a nights entertainment and while your first beer is still cold, your balance has hit £0. My attitude to combat this while still making small deposits and playing high volatile games, is to simply play as slow as possible.
You can easily triple your "game time" by simply avoiding things like quick spinning and auto play. Instead you should treat each and every spin as it's own unique event. Many people wait days after buying a lottery ticket despite the odds being in the millions, waiting a few extra seconds for a 450/1 event can still be enjoyable if you start from the beginning with that approach.
Notice how no casino has a "slow play" feature. It's always about playing as fast as possible as that's what makes them money and makes you lose and decide to redeposit.
Many times simply playing slow has given me a nights entertainment without the need to redeposit. I know to most people it will seem so boring that they would rather just lose, but I try to look at gambling as a long term thing rather than single sessions.
I remember Thunderstruck (& other MG 9-liners) would allow the user to customize the gap between spins, quite a good feature I thought!
I'd even do manual spins on that game for a while with 3-4 second interludes, almost analysing each spin in great depth. Just to give the illusion of play time if anything, so I get the 'slow play' point all too well
Developers would do well to slow their games down a notch, the likes of Bonanza would benefit greatly from this, because worse than watching £30 go up in smoke without a feature is the time it took doing so. Getting an hour's 'entertainment' is more pleasing than 20 minutes of Blitzkrieg Busting
I'd even do manual spins on that game for a while with 3-4 second interludes, almost analysing each spin in great depth. Just to give the illusion of play time if anything, so I get the 'slow play' point all too well
Developers would do well to slow their games down a notch, the likes of Bonanza would benefit greatly from this, because worse than watching £30 go up in smoke without a feature is the time it took doing so. Getting an hour's 'entertainment' is more pleasing than 20 minutes of Blitzkrieg Busting
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- Mar 25, 2012
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I think the problem people had with 3Dice is not matching their stakes to their bankrolls, you could deposit £100 and play MG slots like Boogie Monsters and The Osbournes at £1 per spin and probably be alright, do that at 3Dice and you'll get your pants taken down and spanked on the arse more often than not. Enzo himself made several posts to that effect here at CM as I recall.
Playing slow wouldn't work for me, I mean, let's be honest here, a lot of online slots aren't exactly a riveting experience if you bring them down to brass tacks, so I'll also use an autoplay and fast spin options where available. (In fact, if I feel I can't get a slot running at what I feel is a satisfactory speed I'll probably just not play it.)
Not saying my way is 'right' and others are 'wrong' - each to their own!
Playing slow wouldn't work for me, I mean, let's be honest here, a lot of online slots aren't exactly a riveting experience if you bring them down to brass tacks, so I'll also use an autoplay and fast spin options where available. (In fact, if I feel I can't get a slot running at what I feel is a satisfactory speed I'll probably just not play it.)
Not saying my way is 'right' and others are 'wrong' - each to their own!
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2013
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- Wales
Here's an interesting idea, would you consider taking up a BIG bonus if the slot RTP was set lower?
Lets take an example:-
Bruce Lee standard RTP of 96%.
If the casino offered the game to be played at 86% RTP with a 300% bonus, would this tempt you?
You know that the house edge is higher, but would the bonus money give you the sweetener of a lot of extra playtime with the kicking of a 10% drop in RTP.
Would you severely notice the reduced RTP in regular play? I would probably be up trying it at least, mind you the problem with most bonuses is that they -EV
Rob
Lets take an example:-
Bruce Lee standard RTP of 96%.
If the casino offered the game to be played at 86% RTP with a 300% bonus, would this tempt you?
You know that the house edge is higher, but would the bonus money give you the sweetener of a lot of extra playtime with the kicking of a 10% drop in RTP.
Would you severely notice the reduced RTP in regular play? I would probably be up trying it at least, mind you the problem with most bonuses is that they -EV
Rob
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- Mar 25, 2012
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Depends what the bonus terms and WR are. Let's assume we have two bonuses, one is 100% up to a maximum of £100, and one is 300% up to a maximum of £300, so in both cases a £100 deposit yields the maximum bonus, and let's say that both are on a 20xB WR (which is rather optimistic these days.....).
On the 100% bonus we have a £200 bankroll, with a £2000 WR. Average cost to wager would be £80 so we'd make £20 profit. (80/0.04=2000.)
On the 300% bonus we have a £400 bankroll, with a £6000 WR. Average cost to wager would be £560 so we'd bust out before we made wagering. (560/0.14=6000.)
The size of the bonus doesn't nearly compensate for that massive drop in RTP!
On the 100% bonus we have a £200 bankroll, with a £2000 WR. Average cost to wager would be £80 so we'd make £20 profit. (80/0.04=2000.)
On the 300% bonus we have a £400 bankroll, with a £6000 WR. Average cost to wager would be £560 so we'd bust out before we made wagering. (560/0.14=6000.)
The size of the bonus doesn't nearly compensate for that massive drop in RTP!
Most of us have short memory. I remember years ago when I joined 32Red I got their signup bonus (which I believe was 100% match up to $100) and played the whole $100 on Immortal Romance at $0.60/spin and got killed in minutes, it was almost exclusively dead spins (no kidding). It was so insanely bad that I couldn't believe that the slot was acting normally and contacted the 32RED rep on CM and asked him to take a look at what happened...he said that my RTP was very bad indeed (28% IIRC) and gave me another $100 bonus for free.
I also remember playing Starburst when it came out, a game with virtually no potential, at a sensible $0.50/spin and going through several deposits with no play time at all (that was before the Chopley Starburst experiment).
So yeah...catching a slot in a bad mood is nothing new it's just that when it's a bad run we think it's the worst ever and we tend to forget that it happened before (I'm guilty of this, too).
Edit: One more thing...I think that watching a ton of streamers and Youtubers play on big stakes influenced some people to raise their stakes too much for their bankroll, which isn't good for play time. Playing £3 spins on DHV and the likes is not "healthy" stakes for the vast majority of people.
I also remember playing Starburst when it came out, a game with virtually no potential, at a sensible $0.50/spin and going through several deposits with no play time at all (that was before the Chopley Starburst experiment).
So yeah...catching a slot in a bad mood is nothing new it's just that when it's a bad run we think it's the worst ever and we tend to forget that it happened before (I'm guilty of this, too).
Edit: One more thing...I think that watching a ton of streamers and Youtubers play on big stakes influenced some people to raise their stakes too much for their bankroll, which isn't good for play time. Playing £3 spins on DHV and the likes is not "healthy" stakes for the vast majority of people.
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J
Jory
Guest
Absolutely, it's why my non-gambling friends can't even understand for one moment why people would play such boring games. They don't look at the slot the same way we do, but look at it almost like a video game or some crappy facebook game.
I think most of us regular players simply follow the path of least resistance based on our previous experiences. If you are one of the people who just happened to win a lot, it doesn't matter how boring the game is (Gemix) you will keep going back to it because it worked before. It's a good example of how superstitions are born and "If only I do ABC, XYZ will happen"
If during your testing on bonanza you just happened to hit frequent bonuses while raising your stakes slightly after each big win and go on to cash out thousands, then most likely your opinion on modern slots would be a positive one. You may be agreeing with how the industry has changed as it allows minimum stake players to win big and cursing low volatile slots as simply being an egg timer before it eats your money.
Ultimately, just like you said, there is no correct strategy. A truly random game does not behave like a fruit machine were knowledge can help you win in the long run. What they do well is giving you positive reinforcement to the decisions you did make when you won and a false belief that if you stick to what worked before, you will win again.
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- Feb 12, 2013
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- Wales
Choppers, do you have any plans to make another tour of pubs with a few bandits on there? Would love to see you rowing a B3 and moaning like a bitch about how bad the RTP's are compared to online. I would also like it to be a full blown monsoon again too also There must be some absolute gems in the pubs knocking about over there, also the arcades must have some nice bits in too.
They are really good videos as I can just feel how much you hate modern pub fruits in that video. Could you also do a video on the Fair Play campaign, that would bring some memories.
Rob
There must be some absolute gems in the pubs knocking about over there, also the arcades must have some nice bits in too.They are really good videos as I can just feel how much you hate modern pub fruits in that video. Could you also do a video on the Fair Play campaign, that would bring some memories.
Rob
