Last chance to say no to Obama Care now

[clj7221]

Sorry Bryan. I get a little irritated when the over patriotic, unconditional flag waving, U.S.A runs the planeteers that make up about .1% of the American population show up and start telling the rest of the planet we should thank them for everything we've built.

Fact is, I like 99.9% of the Americans I've ever met. I respect their country. I know Americans personally too. Some of them I've talk to on the phone for years. I've even dated a couple of them.

Thing to keep in mind is not all public healthcare systems are the same. What works for us might not be what works for you. But regardless of how you do it nobody should ever have to worry about walking into a hospital or doctor's office because of the cost and nobody should be turned away.

Yes, it's expensive. It's getting a little too expensive for us but that's more bad management than anything else. Maybe if the Ontario government hadn't blown 6 billion dollars on something as simple as electronic record keeping and still haven't even started building it yet we'd have more money for medical equipment. (I wish someone would strip down Dalton McGuinty and set him adrift on a floating iceberg.) But I digress.

The problem with public healthcare is that it has to be paid for with our taxes. And if rich people opt out, poor people don't pay enough tax to cover the cost. That is a shame. Personally I make enough money to pay for my own insurance and haven't been to a doctor or hospital in 10 years. I haven't been treated for an injury in 15 years. I haven't taken a sick day from work in almost 5 years. Still, I've never complained about the amount of my tax dollars that goes toward our healthcare system. I only complain about the terrible way it's managed.

The haves have to look after the have nots. I know this is something your country believes in. I've seen it within your borders during disasters and the charities too numurous to count. And in the amount of money your country sends abroad to aid other countries. You're a good people. I just think it's time someone put their foot down and said "Ok, everyone gets treatment. And that's that."

No need to apologize. You did not come on here making insults at anyone. You were just replying to Ramblers post.I'm sure Bryan saw that and I doubt the warning message was for you.Why should it be.

 

[bryand]

The haves have to look after the have nots. I know this is something your country believes in. I've seen it within your borders during disasters and the charities too numurous to count. And in the amount of money your country sends abroad to aid other countries. You're a good people. I just think it's time someone put their foot down and said "Ok, everyone gets treatment. And that's that."

I think I understand the disconnect in this thread. Most Americans would love to see health care for all. This is a no brainer. But most of us understand that Obamacare will likely drive our economy down further and water down what is now the best health care system in the world. At present the US spends roughly the same amount on national defense as it does on health care (about 20% each). We already spend more than 8% on debt service. Another $1 trillion dollars (the conservative estimate over 10 years) is not fiscally feasible.

 

[skiny]

I think I understand the disconnect in this thread. Most Americans would love to see health care for all. This is a no brainer. But most of us understand that Obamacare will likely drive our economy down further and water down what is now the best health care system in the world. At present the US spends roughly the same amount on national defense as it does on health care (about 20% each). We already spend more than 8% on debt service. Another $1 trillion dollars (the conservative estimate over 10 years) is not fiscally feasible.

Now this I understand. Money is the issue. This could be the worst time in US history to try to create a univeral public healthcare system with the economy the way it is. And the swine flu cropping up in the middle of it didn't really help matters. An economic crisis and a pandemic at the same time. Yay!

I don't claim to know all that much about the US economy or the current healthcare system. How much would it cost for the average American middle aged waitress at a little diner making minimum wage to be covered for any health problems or injury that might crop up?

On another note, the difference between insurance and public heathcare is that public healthcare doesn't cover lost wages. So even with public healthcare and no insurance you still get to sit at home getting healthy and going bankrupt. The company I work for pays for my insurance but it basically just covers my lost wages and gives me a little bonus if I lose a finger or something.

 

[skiny]

No need to apologize. You did not come on here making insults at anyone. You were just replying to Ramblers post.I'm sure Bryan saw that and I doubt the warning message was for you.Why should it be.

I've learned that I don't have to actually insult people to get under their skin.

 

[bryand]

Now this I understand. Money is the issue. This could be the worst time in US history to try to create a univeral public healthcare system with the economy the way it is. And the swine flu cropping up in the middle of it didn't really help matters. An economic crisis and a pandemic at the same time. Yay!

I don't claim to know all that much about the US economy or the current healthcare system. How much would it cost for the average American middle aged waitress at a little diner making minimum wage to be covered for any health problems or injury that might crop up?

On another note, the difference between insurance and public heathcare is that public healthcare doesn't cover lost wages. So even with public healthcare and no insurance you still get to sit at home getting healthy and going bankrupt. The company I work for pays for my insurance but it basically just covers my lost wages and gives me a little bonus if I lose a finger or something.

Depending on pre-existing conditions and age, a good individual health policy could cost between $250 and $1500 a month. Separate insurance is needed to cover lost wages.

 

[jinnia]

I like our open health care system where patients and doctors make the
decisions.

I do not want a closed health care system where Washington
decides.

 

[lots0]

What I find funny is that the people MOST opposed to a government run health care system are all on Medicare... A government run health care system that everyone seems to like.

I don't hear any calls for Medicare to be closed down...

You guys are so scared of the government.... But the people you should be scared of are the corporate health insurance companies.

The Insurance companies really do have death panels and rationed health care... Remember Granny couldn't get that life saving operation cuz the insurance company would not pay for it.... But that is OK because it's not government... Talk about about fucked up...

I guess it is hard to face the fact that you have been manipulated by the corporate health insurance companies and their bought and paid for lackeys into thinking that that the government that protects you is bad and the corporate insurance companies that that rip you off and deny medical coverage and let you die because you don't have enough money are the good guys...

Health insurance for all...even the stupid and manipulated.

 

[skiny]

I like our open health care system where patients and doctors make the
decisions.

I do not want a closed health care system where Washington
decides.

I don't understand what you're expecting Washington to decide? Since the day I was born I have never heard of any provincial government or the federal government of Canada getting involved in any decision between anyone's doctor and patient. Nobody tells me who to see, nobody tells me where to go and nobody tells any doctor or nurse where to work, where to live or who to treat.

We're talking about universal healthcare not communism.

 

[lots0]

We're talking about universal healthcare not communism.

You hit the nail on the head.

The paid manipulators, like the talking heads on Fox and paid lobbyists, have tried to tie communism, socialism and anything else with negative connotations they could think of to health insurance reform.

What I find amazing is that most of the folks that compare health insurance reform to Socialism or Communism don't have a clue what those forms of political governance are really all about. All they know is some talking head on the TV says its 'bad'... So it's bad... Maybe the debate should be about our educational system instead of our health insurance system

 

[bryand]

You hit the nail on the head.

The paid manipulators, like the talking heads on Fox and paid lobbyists, have tried to tie communism, socialism and anything else with negative connotations they could think of to health insurance reform.

What I find amazing is that most of the folks that compare health insurance reform to Socialism or Communism don't have a clue what those forms of political governance are really all about. All they know is some talking head on the TV says its 'bad'... So it's bad... Maybe the debate should be about our educational system instead of our health insurance system

Please tell me what its like to be so darn smart. Us stupid people could only dream.

 

[jinnia]

Sorry, not on Medicare, but my Dad is. He pays $99 a month to have it, although he already paid for it during his many years of working.
From a $3000 eye surgery, Dad STILL paid $1800 out of his own pocket, Medicare paid $1200.

Not 'scared' of the US government, just sick and tired of them trying to control
every aspect of our lives!!

IF the healthcare reform is handled as said, ie; Health Insurance Premium Relief, Strengthening Small Businesses, Eliminating Discrimination for Pre-Existing Conditions, Health Status or Gender, etc., it will be good, BUT, over and over, as our history shows, the elected government does NOT do things as is originally said.

 

[LaurieJim]

What I find funny is that the people MOST opposed to a government run health care system are all on Medicare... A government run health care system that everyone seems to like.

I don't hear any calls for Medicare to be closed down...

You guys are so scared of the government.... But the people you should be scared of are the corporate health insurance companies.

The Insurance companies really do have death panels and rationed health care... Remember Granny couldn't get that life saving operation cuz the insurance company would not pay for it.... But that is OK because it's not government... Talk about about fucked up...

I guess it is hard to face the fact that you have been manipulated by the corporate health insurance companies and their bought and paid for lackeys into thinking that that the government that protects you is bad and the corporate insurance companies that that rip you off and deny medical coverage and let you die because you don't have enough money are the good guys...

Health insurance for all...even the stupid and manipulated.

Tell me one good thing this President and this Democratic controlled Congress and Senate have done since taking office? I f you thought Bush was bad, just come back to this post in 2 years, if we are still a nation and still here now thats about frigging scarry, if your a small business .

This health care should have been put on the backburner, but this was always Obamas top agenda. What happened to all parties working together, a transparent goverment?

What have they tried to do about employment and getting the Country back on track, if the economy goes down, so does the money and then all the things we cherrish, maybe even your gambling or what you would have made from being an affiliate, cant play if you cant work or find work and have extra to deposit after paying sky rocketing bills, from the trickle down effect.

I think that we need to get what should come in order first, employment, ending 2 wars that he seems to not give a flip about and keeping the country stable insted of trying to borrow our way out of debt, thats what he has been hired to do.


I will keep my Guns, my Constitutional rights and ill gladly let any of you that think they are doing such a great job in Washington...............KEEP THE "CHANGE", your gonna need it..............laurie

 

[GamTrak]

You hit the nail on the head.

The paid manipulators, like the talking heads on Fox and paid lobbyists, have tried to tie communism, socialism and anything else with negative connotations they could think of to health insurance reform.

What I find amazing is that most of the folks that compare health insurance reform to Socialism or Communism don't have a clue what those forms of political governance are really all about. All they know is some talking head on the TV says its 'bad'... So it's bad... Maybe the debate should be about our educational system instead of our health insurance system

So true, but IT'S a DONE DEAL now!

House passes Affordable Health Care for America Act

On November 7, 2009, House Democrats made history for the American people, with the passage of the Affordable Health Care for America Act.

Our legislation delivers on the promise of making affordable, quality health insurance available to every American - and laying the foundation for a brighter future for generations to come.

The Affordable Health Care for America Act includes a strong public option and will:

Ensure affordability for the middle class;
Provide security for our seniors;
End discrimination for pre-existing medical conditions;
Invest in wellness and prevention; and
Ensure responsibility to our children - by not adding a dime to the deficit.

This historic victory was won because grassroots Democrats stood up and spoke out. Grassroots Democrats insisted on a strong public option and you are the ones who stood by us and fought hard every step of the way.

Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

This historic victory was won because grassroots Democrats stood up and spoke out. Grassroots Democrats insisted on a strong public option and you are the ones who stood by us and fought hard every step of the way.

 

[LaurieJim]

So true, but IT'S a DONE DEAL now!


Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

This historic victory was won because grassroots Democrats stood up and spoke out. Grassroots Democrats insisted on a strong public option and you are the ones who stood by us and fought hard every step of the way.

A sad day in American History for those of us who follow and hold truth to the United States Constitution.....................laurie

 

[skiny]

A sad day in American History for those of us who follow and hold truth to the United States Constitution.....................laurie

I'm unclear on what public healthcare has to do with the constitution.

 

[LaurieJim]

I'm unclear on what public healthcare has to do with the constitution.

"The Congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes, to pay debts, to provide for the common defense and the general welfare of the United States of America as a country, to borrow money, to regulate commerce with foreign nations and among the several states and with the Indian tribes, to establish a uniform rule of naturalization, to coin money and regulate its value, to provide for the punishment of counterfeiting money and securities, to establish post offices, to promote the progress of science and useful arts, to constitute courts inferior to the Supreme Court, to define and punish piracies on the high seas, to declare war, to raise and support armies, to provide and maintain a Navy, to make rules for the government and the regulation of the Army and the Navy, to provide for the calling forth of a militia, to provide for organizing arming disciplining the militia, to exercise exclusive authority in all cases over the District of Columbia and to make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers."




The 10th Amendment..........

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.


They do not have the power under our Constitution to mandate this on us imo..............laurie

 

[jinnia]

Anyone recall the campaign? John McCains health care reform plan
and how Obama criticised him for it?

Obama: "For the first time in American history, he wants to tax your health benefits. Apparently, Senator McCain doesn't think it's enough that your health premiums have doubled. He thinks you should have to pay taxes on them, too."

But the reality of reforming health care from the White House has changed that. Despite campaign rhetoric, as president, Obama has refused to rule out a tax on money paid into a health plan, creating the appearance of a flip-flop on the issue.

Recently, Obama argued that taxing benefits is still not his first choice as a way to pay for health care, but that some compromise might have to be reached in Congress.

"You went after him for suggesting that we tax that money," Gibson said to Obama.

"I continue to believe that it would be the wrong way to go for us to eliminate the deduction, or the exclusion, on healthcare benefits," Obama replied. "That essentially taxes current benefits."

But, he said, among the options being discussed in Congress to cap the exclusion of healthcare benefits so that so-called gold-plated plans might pay more in taxes, might have to be part of the conversation.

"There's going to have to be some compromise at the end of the day," Obama said.

It's just a matter of time to see if the history of our US elected officials
continues on course, with their campaign lies and deceptions.

 

[skiny]

to provide for the common defense and the general welfare of the United States of America as a country


I guess that's open to interpretation.

 

[clj7221]

to provide for the common defense and the general welfare of the United States of America as a country


I guess that's open to interpretation.

Skiny, I would appreciate it if you clarify something with me about Canadian Health Care. You say it provides you with all the health care you need. What about someone in your country who is diagnosed with a malignant brain tumor, and of course requires surgery? Does your health care system immediately see to it this person has surgery before the tumor gets larger and the cancer spreads?

I mean your telling us all about the great basic health care your country provides but basic health care does not put anyone in America in to Bankruptcy. There are many clinics here in the U.S. that provides free services for basic health care based on income.

I would like to hear from you about people with serious life threatening conditions and how quickly Canadian Health care provides them treatment before their chances for survival are almost gone?

 

[lots0]

Please tell me what its like to be so darn smart. Us stupid people could only dream.

Are you angry and lashing out at me because you are starting to see that you have been manipulated by slick fast talking big money talking TV heads into acting against your own best interests???


@ Robin. Passing the House Bill is NOT the end of this medical reform debate. The Bill still has to pass the Senate and according to the Senate Republicans the Bill is "Dead On Arrival". And to be honest the health insurance companies have all of the Republican Senators in their pocket and some of the Democratic Senators as well, so the chances of the House Bill passing the Senate in it's current form is slim to none...

 

[bryand]

Are you angry and lashing out at me because you are starting to see that you have been manipulated by slick fast talking big money talking TV heads into acting against your own best interests???

I a not angry with you. You seem sincere albeit uninformed of the fiscal consequences that will be caused by the passing of Obamacare. Like most liberals you seem to want it all but have no idea how to pay for it. Further, a more helpful discussion would be to debate the issues rather than criticize Fox News, Republicans and conservative talk radio hosts (I took the liberty of guessing who you meant by 'slick').

I stopped long ago promoting the Republican party but believe strongly in conservative fiscal policy. I am moderate to liberal on social policy.

Specifically within the proposed healthcare bill that passed in the House, I do not favor: coverage of illegal aliens (all but 6 million apparently); federal coverage of abortion except in the case of rape, incest or if the mother's life is in danger; mandated employer coverage of employees and/or reduced medicare benefits.

 

[skiny]

Skiny, I would appreciate it if you clarify something with me about Canadian Health Care. You say it provides you with all the health care you need. What about someone in your country who is diagnosed with a malignant brain tumor, and of course requires surgery? Does your health care system immediately see to it this person has surgery before the tumor gets larger and the cancer spreads?

I mean your telling us all about the great basic health care your country provides but basic health care does not put anyone in America in to Bankruptcy. There are many clinics here in the U.S. that provides free services for basic health care based on income.

I would like to hear from you about people with serious life threatening conditions and how quickly Canadian Health care provides them treatment before their chances for survival are almost gone?

I never actually used the word "Great." In fact I said the money in Ontario is terribly mismanaged. But that's politics. I've not really known many people with life threatening illnesses thankfully but I remember my brother needed an MRI a couple of years ago. It wasn't life threatening and I think it took less than a month. I'm sure it would have been faster if waiting would have cause more harm. I know a woman who has cancer and she's had regular treatments since she was diagnosed without hassle.

Actually you probably have a better chance of being treated quickly in Ontario if you're suffering a life threatening illness or injury.

I will tell you what one of the biggest problems I see with free healthcare is... As I said before I haven't been treated for an injury in 15 years and I never see a doctor when I'm sick. I'm just never sick enough to bother but the hospitals and doctors offices are just full of people who seem to think it's necessary to run there every time they get a paper cut or a sniffle. (I'm exaggerating.) The wait times can be horrendous and people say it's a doctor and nurse shortage but personally I say half the problem comes from all the people who probably don't really need to be there anyway.

 

[bryand]

I never actually used the word "Great." In fact I said the money in Ontario is terribly mismanaged. But that's politics. I've not really known many people with life threatening illnesses thankfully but I remember my brother needed an MRI a couple of years ago. It wasn't life threatening and I think it took less than a month. I'm sure it would have been faster if waiting would have cause more harm. I know a woman who has cancer and she's had regular treatments since she was diagnosed without hassle.

Actually you probably have a better chance of being treated quickly in Ontario if you're suffering a life threatening illness or injury.

I will tell you what one of the biggest problems I see with free healthcare is... As I said before I haven't been treated for an injury in 15 years and I never see a doctor when I'm sick. I'm just never sick enough to bother but the hospitals and doctors offices are just full of people who seem to think it's necessary to run there every time they get a paper cut or a sniffle. (I'm exaggerating.) The wait times can be horrendous and people say it's a doctor and nurse shortage but personally I say half the problem comes from all the people who probably don't really need to be there anyway.

This is what I see happening in the US down the road not to mention overbilling fraud and a bigger black market for prescription drugs.

 

[skiny]

This is what I see happening in the US down the road not to mention overbilling fraud and a bigger black market for prescription drugs.

Well, it's a big problem but who can walk into a hospital and say "You should be here, you should be here, you should leave?" Someone has to check these people out first and some people just don't know enough to go lay down when they get a cold. As for overbilling I don't think I've ever heard of an overbilling problem. Maybe there's standardized pricing. I don't know. I've never charged anyone for medical services. And as for presicription drugs, that's not covered under OHIP. You need insurance for prescriptions. Dental is also not covered. Eye exams.... I think they took out ambulance rides some time ago too. Of course if I have to pay for ambulance rides I should be able to call them for any reason as long as I'm in a hurry.

 

[bryand]

Well, it's a big problem but who can walk into a hospital and say "You should be here, you should be here, you should leave?" Someone has to check these people out first and some people just don't know enough to go lay down when they get a cold. As for overbilling I don't think I've ever heard of an overbilling problem. Maybe there's standardized pricing. I don't know. I've never charged anyone for medical services. And as for presicription drugs, that's not covered under OHIP. You need insurance for prescriptions. Dental is also not covered. Eye exams.... I think they took out ambulance rides some time ago too. Of course if I have to pay for ambulance rides I should be able to call them for any reason as long as I'm in a hurry.

We already have a big fraud problem with Medicaid (healthcare for the poor) and Medicare (healthcare for the elderly). Shady medical clinics bill the government for BILLIONS of dollars each year for bogus services. We also have a big problem with people selling prescription narcotics on the street.