ladygaga vs Vavada Casino

ladygaga

Newbie member
PABnononaccred
Joined
Nov 27, 2021
Location
Minsk
Hello!

The day before yesterday after I’ve made a withdrawal request of 1200$ from my account I’ve got a demand for my person verification from Vavada casino manager. Those 1200 $ was only a part of the full amount 14077.81 $ on my account. I’ve sent them all documents they asked me to send. Fifteen minutes later I’ve got a message from them with the next text: “Your account has been blocked with no right to restore. You are not allowed to create accounts and play in our casino, because you used prohibited tactics. Your winnings and deposit are cancelled because of breaking the casino rules.” I haven’t got any more explanations from the manager.

The full story is below. The November 23rd 2021 year I’ve registered on the web-site of online casino Vavada, license number №8048/JAZ2017-035 for the purpose of gambling Black Jack in live casino. Registration was made by me on the website vavadaft.com. The access to this web-site was performed by me from my personal computer from my flat in Minsk, Belarus. That was my first registration in Vavada casino. I had never registered on this platform before and never played there before. None of my family members never create accounts in Vavada casino. That day I’ve made my first deposit in the amount of 3000 $ using cryptocurrency USDT. I have been credited with a bonus in the amount of 1000 $ according to the rules of casino. The first deposit was lost very quickly, so I’ve made the second one in the amount of 5000 $ using the same way. Perhaps it has been found that all my money were located on the bonus account, because my bonus was still active despite the fact that live-casino has no relation to bonuses and all bonuses are played only in slots. In one moment all my money turned out on the bonus account.

I’ve connected with support team and I’ve been informed that those are the rules of casino and if I cancel the bonus, then all the amount burns out, it means the bonus itself and all other money. Thus they turned all deposit money from real cash to bonus account and told me that I had no more real money, I only had bonus account with the amount of approximately 3400 $ at that moment. I remind you that I’ve already made total deposit of 8000 $ and got 1000 $ bonus, which had to be wagered for turning to real cash. So according to that logics I’ve forced to play back the bonus and to make bets in the amount of 35000 $ (1000$ x 35WAGER) in slots just for taking back my own money. Finally after bonus wagering it became 14077.81 $ on my real money account. There were +8000 $ my deposit, -1500 $ the result of Black Jack gambling, +1000 $ “welcome bonus” that turned out to real money and +6602.81 $ my total winning in slots (in fact I’ve been forced to play). I played the equal bets in automatic play mode, which means I didn’t take active actions and hadn’t no impact on the game result.

Further, after wagering the bonus I’ve decided not to play in this casino anymore, because I had strong doubt about the honesty of this casino. I’ve made a request for money withdrawal. In spite of there is a claim on their web-site about no need of personal verification for deposit and withdrawal, I’ve been requested to provide my passport and selfie. After providing specified documents, they instantly announced that “I used ‘prohibited tactics’ and all my winnings will be cancelled and my deposit also will not be refunded. The account is closed forever and the decision is final. The access to my account is limited.” The meaning of the term ‘prohibited tactics’ has not been explained to me. The exact reason of blocking me account hasn’t been articulated me well enough. The reason of refusal to refund my deposit also wasn’t presented to me.

The total time spent by me at the tables of Black Jack in live casino from EVOLUTION provider was approximately six hours and the result of the game was a loss of 1500 $. All other money on the account were the deposit and winnings in slot machines. There was no way to use any ‘prohibited tactics’ in my opinion. In this case I see wrongful activities by casino VAVADA. I ask for your help in solving this problem and providing explanations. I also would like to get back all withheld funds in the full amount of 14077.81 $, because all the winnings were legal and I strictly followed the rules of casino all the time during the game.
 
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Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
I would recommend submitting a PAB here and hopefully we might be able to find out what went wrong.
 

ladygaga

Newbie member
PABnononaccred
Joined
Nov 27, 2021
Location
Minsk
I would recommend submitting a PAB here and hopefully we might be able to find out what went wrong.
Thank you for offer and advice! As I understand this casino mostly aims on CIS market. I found one site in RU area (affgamblers) negotiating with online casinos on cases like this, at least they have VAVADA representative there. I filed application through them as I believe this information on CIS area will bring more effect on this casino reputation (if this word is applicable here). As it follows from your site's rules this limits me in filing claim via you at the moment. After case resolution successful or not I will decide what to do next, highly likely will apply to Antillephone as well. Anyway I will keep you updated here.
 

abuyang

Registered User
Joined
Aug 5, 2019
Location
Lanna, Thailand
So you deposited 3000 and got 1000 bonus. Then you played Live Bj until ZERO balance. How was that possible if the bonus balance is available for the play using slots games only?
 

ladygaga

Newbie member
PABnononaccred
Joined
Nov 27, 2021
Location
Minsk
So you deposited 3000 and got 1000 bonus. Then you played Live Bj until ZERO balance. How was that possible if the bonus balance is available for the play using slots games only?
That's really ankward. VAVADA allows to use and play bonus money at live tables, but no bonus wager counted and all winning bets (including your original bets on this round) come to bonus account. Finally you are in a trap - all your real money moved to bonus account and you must clear the initial bonus to get your own money back. Otherwise if you cancel bonus you will loose everything that on a bonus account. If they allowed to cancel the bonus I would happily leave the casino immediately.

To continue ... Finally they alleged me in card-counting and stated the decission is final. Yet again

Games results:
1. +8000 USD - deposit
2. -1500 USD - live blackjack game
3. +1000 USD - first deposit bonus
4. +6500 USD - total result in slots

Slot game was somehow forced but this not a matter of this case anyway. Also they stated they perfomed some investigation via EVOLUTION that is obviously false statement as they didn't have time for that. They banned me in few hours after cashout request and 20 minutes after identification documents provided. No any warnings during the game was raised to me and no access to any provider or games was restricted. What is the chance that EVOLUTION put on hold everything they had on a schedule and rushed to perform "investigation" initiated by some garbage CIS casino with Curacao license to help them steel the money. It's not even funny.

So under card-counting allegations they seized everything in absolutely rude manner. How it corresponds with the law? What is overall industry opinion in card counting? Do you have similar cases, is it possible to appeal via this site in this situation? AFFGAMBLER seems to be affiliated structure. They immediately took casino's side stating "don't do what you do", claim rejected. That's it.

What chances do I have if I apply to license issuer and lawsuit the casino?
 

abuyang

Registered User
Joined
Aug 5, 2019
Location
Lanna, Thailand
I have just read the Vavada’s response on affgambler website and it is ridiculous. They accused you in card counting. But according to the information you provided here, your gameplay on Live Bj resulted in overall minus and all the winnings you got were from the slots play. And they confiscated both your winnings and 8000 usd deposits.
File a complaint with this website. Affgambler is a joke.
 

ladygaga

Newbie member
PABnononaccred
Joined
Nov 27, 2021
Location
Minsk
Here is VAVADA responce via email on the case:

=====================================
Good day! We checked all the necessary information and found that our managers received a request from Evolution Gaming, which reported on the use of your method of counting cards. Any such specific game tactics is prohibited in many casinos, including ours. In this regard, the identification procedure was requested (according to term 5.3, we have the right to request it or a video identification at any time), after checking all the information received and on the basis of terms 16.1.6 and 16.5 it was decided to refuse your further use of services and withhold all the money.
=====================================
VAVADA T&C:

5.3. To verify your private information the Company reserves the right to request documents of identification and/or video-identification. The Company has the right to suspend your Personal Account until the required documents are provided to us, and/or terminate your account in full if you fail to provide the Company with the requested documentation.

16.1.6. using special game strategies for illegal profit or money laundering.

16.5. The Company has the right at any time without prior notice to refuse access to the Website or to suspend access to the Personal Account if we suspect fraudulent activity. We have no obligation to return or compensate you for the funds deposited to your account at that time. We may report to the proper authorities and you are under obligation to cooperate with the Company in the investigation process.
 

ladygaga

Newbie member
PABnononaccred
Joined
Nov 27, 2021
Location
Minsk
Could you clarify your saying about Evolution? Do you mean Evolution never performs such actions on players? Or it takes much longer time in case of casino request?

PS. I'm going to file PAB afer this message so I'll be limited on commenting the situation.
 

Nate

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
webmeister
CAG
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Location
Cyberspace
Could you clarify your saying about Evolution? Do you mean Evolution never performs such actions on players? Or it takes much longer time in case of casino request?

PS. I'm going to file PAB afer this message so I'll be limited on commenting the situation.
If you were card counting - Why would they investigate you for a loss?

According to your post, you never won on Table games - You won on Slots. But - As per your last post, please refrain from replying or posting until your PAB is resolved or has an outcome.

Nate
 

VAVADA

I-Gaming Industry Representative
Joined
Dec 3, 2021
Location
Cyprus
Hello! I am a representative of casino Vavada. I would like to inform you that the player’s actions were illegal within framework of the game on our website, that was reported to us by provider Evolution Gaming, in which it was reported and supported with proofs that the player used card counting method.

We are ready to provide all evidence of violations of the rules to the site administrator.
 

maxd

Complaints (PAB) Manager
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Location
Saltirelandia
Hello,

Please obtain the proper certification from @Casinomeister before representing yourself as a company official on the forums.

Apologies for the intrusiveness but we feel these steps are necessary to protect the integrity of our forums and the security of our player membership.

My other duty here at Casinomeister is to manage our Player Arbitration service and in that capacity I have received a complaint from the player regarding your casino. Please check your Private Messages regarding this matter.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Regards,
Max Drayman
Forum Co-Moderator, Casinomeister.com
 

ladygaga

Newbie member
PABnononaccred
Joined
Nov 27, 2021
Location
Minsk
According to your post, you never won on Table games - You won on Slots. But - As per your last post, please refrain from replying or posting until your PAB is resolved or has an outcome.
As I'm granted permission to keep on posting on my case, some more questions.

I still don't see direct prohibition of card counting in Vavada casino T&C. They say forbidden "using special game strategies for illegal profit or money laundering". The key word is "ILLEGAL" here. Is it correct to state that casino's terms were violated in case of card counting thus equalizing "card counting" to "illegal profit strategy"?

You can easly find cases here where players were accused in using "martingale" yet it does not change the house edge or RTP. Nonetheless casino claimed this strategy as "prohibited" and "illegal" and withhold funds. So how to understand what strategy is legal and what is not? Their T&C are extremely vague and used by unfair casinos to withhold player's funds by no reason.

So what you think is "card counting" equals to "illegal profit strategy or money laundering"?
 

maxd

Complaints (PAB) Manager
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Location
Saltirelandia
IMO the salient point here is that you are talking about a Curacao-licensed casino. Curacao does not (generally) involve itself in what Terms their casinos use nor how they are enforced. In other words such decisions are largely up to the individual casino. So, as far as your case goes, "illegal" is semantics and it means whatever the casino decides it means.

Is that morally right and fair? No, obviously not, but what authority are you going to take your moral outrage to? I'll tell you: there isn't one, unless you can afford to take them to court (recent events have shown that that can have some effect) or publicly shame them into reversing themselves and deciding in your favour (seldom successful but not unheard of).

The situation in your case is that the games provider alerted the casino to, and provided evidence of, advantage play and warned the casino to take action. And so the casino did. If you're keen on fighting that you're free to do so, of course, but my experience tells me you better start saving whatever lucky charms you favour because you're going to need all the help you can get.
 
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ladygaga

Newbie member
PABnononaccred
Joined
Nov 27, 2021
Location
Minsk
Max,

I understand your point that "rules are whatever they are in Curasao" and basically I'm talking about the same. If they strictly put "card counting" on T&C then it would be OK. Still not fully legal requirement but "rule" anyway. What they have now is just a vague term that gives very wide field of manipulation. They have right to state ANY player's activity solely on their discretion as "illegal" and seize the money. To be straight what's on T&C is "at any time we can steel your money". Here I'm not agree it's a moral aspect - it's a criminal act.

As for mystery Evolution's report that I have never seen... By the way if this an evidence of my case why I can't see it? I played at the same time in another Curasao casino. I played blackjack with a total turnover of 500k USD. They put my play under investigation after "Evolution report". Bet audition took long 2 weeks and finally they said I'm clear. Compare to Vavada where they claimed "illegal strategies" right after few hours of play with no bet audition. Yet all my winnings in Vavada come from slot machines only.

Vavada always been a gray-zone casino with rigged slots RTP and other "legal strategies" of making business. Unfortunately I found out this too late. This just a revenge I suddenly got top combination at slots. Nothing more. You either loose on rigged slots with RTP down to 80-85% or they just steel your money. At certain point I wanted to stop playing and quit forever but they told me I must wager the bonus otherwise I loose everything. So I had to bet over 35k USD on slots to wager the bonus and occasionally won. And they become angry with that. All those fairy tales about Evolution like you colleague said is a bullshit.

This is not the end from my side anyway.
 

LuckyAlex

Newbie member
PABinit
Joined
Nov 27, 2021
Hello guys! I have a similar case with Vavada casino. My account was blocked with the ridiculous reason. The casino claimed that ostensibly Evolution had informed them that I had made "opposite bets". As I played only Black Jack, I even don't understand what does it mean. They refer to the letter from Evolution but they don't show it to me. Is it any opportunity to check the authenticity of this letter? I've already messaged Evolution few days ago. So now I'm waiting for their answer. Does the Casinomeister sourse have an opportunity to connect with Evolution provider about the question of the existence of that letter?
 

VAVADA

I-Gaming Industry Representative
Joined
Dec 3, 2021
Location
Cyprus
Good afternoon. We discussed all the details with the representative of the site and provided all the evidence and a letter from the provider.
 

VAVADA

I-Gaming Industry Representative
Joined
Dec 3, 2021
Location
Cyprus
Hello guys! I have a similar case with Vavada casino. My account was blocked with the ridiculous reason. The casino claimed that ostensibly Evolution had informed them that I had made "opposite bets". As I played only Black Jack, I even don't understand what does it mean. They refer to the letter from Evolution but they don't show it to me. Is it any opportunity to check the authenticity of this letter? I've already messaged Evolution few days ago. So now I'm waiting for their answer. Does the Casinomeister sourse have an opportunity to connect with Evolution provider about the question of the existence of that letter?
Hello, we never take actions against a player without a corresponding notification from the provider or visible violations of the site. If you encounter such a situation, please send us your account details by email to check your problem. We, like you, are interested in solving this problem, we are waiting for your feedback.
 

LuckyAlex

Newbie member
PABinit
Joined
Nov 27, 2021
From my point of view, the casino is trying to illegally take money from people, referring to the provider. I will explain how this happens. I play a near-zero game and count cards. Let's imagine I lost. That’s an excellent result for the casino. If I win, the casino doesn’t pay and refers to the fact that the provider told them something. A win-win strategy, so to speak.
If someone's interested
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
.
 

LuckyAlex

Newbie member
PABinit
Joined
Nov 27, 2021
A small addition to the portrait of the casino. The rules say: “Wagering a deposit bonus x35. During the active bonus, money from the real balance is transferred to the bonus balance when the bets are won. If you try to cancel the bonus, the entire bonus balance will be burned.” Well, I signed up for it. But where is a paragraph in the rules about bonus wagering is possible only in slots? Thus you make a deposit, activate a bonus, play in a live casino. The money flowed from the real account to the bonus balance. The bonus can be canceled only with the loss of those winnings that were already there. The bonus is not laundered, welcome to the slots. So, the rules written with insufficient information make it possible for the casino to deceive people who are not yet aware of how vavada casino conducts its business.
 

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LuckyAlex

Newbie member
PABinit
Joined
Nov 27, 2021
I was not lucky at all and I lost my deposits in a couple of hours. The topic starter was much more fortunate, he lost only a part of his deposit on the blackjack table and was very lucky in slots. In my case, the casino decided to give me cashback in the amount of 572 dollars, which still need to be won back in x5 slots. As for the case of topic starter, the casino does not want to pay simply because the money is completely different. In his case the casino is ready to fight for the money. May be the player will give up and the case will not reach the court.
 

dunover

Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
Joined
May 22, 2012
Location
the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
Basically the word 'legal' is completely pointless regarding casinos that have no valid jurisdiction, regulator or legal framework within which they operate. So 'legal' simply means whatever they arbitrarily decide they allow, and 'illegal' is what they don't. The 'legal' word probably only exists in their terms because they were copied from legitimate authorized sites originally that are operated or structured within a legal framework. Terms are meaningless in most Cure-a-cow casinos as whether they honour their terms, pay you or not is entirely at their whim. It is not illegal to use Martingale or card count but in the case of the latter they can ban you, in the case of a land-based you would normally keep your winnings up until the point you were clocked, but it's their right to refuse more play.

You've got as much chance of recompense in the Cup-o-cocoa legal system as we have of getting Putin to extradite the Salisbury poisoners to the UK. :mad:
 
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