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Labour MP's resign from the party

mac72 said:
Not sure where you live trance but many in sheffield/burton on trent/derby (just the ones i know well) might disagree with you. The argument seems to always come down to "sure they put in more than they take out" but thats not the whole picture, the UK simply does not have the infrastructure to deal with whats been going on regardless if there is even a "gross profit" something which i'm not sure of. What i am sure of is if i have a b+b with 10 rooms that charges £50 a night its no good having 100 guests even if their willing to pay £75 the place will still end up in a mess. Controlled immigration based on merit absolutely no issue with but a very strong caveat that those coming here accept our way of life and integrate. Try going to China,UAE etc etc and imposing your way of life on them and see how far you get
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I live 15 minutes from Burton... ;)

I Don't believe that polish people have come here and refused to integrate. In fact, most eatern Europeans I've met and that have worked for me are hard working and have a great work ethic.

Immigrants don't steal jobs... it's just that English people don't want to do them. It's a supply and demand world... it's not immigrants that have reduced wages per se.

If an immigrant who can barely speak English can steal your job, how shit must you be at it ;)

Anyway, I must add that I'm all for controlled immigration and against uncontrolled immigration, but if you think leaving the EU w will change wages and give British jobs back, I think you'll probably end up disappointed.
 
pinnit2014 said:
To be fair, every company needs a good 'ol sociopath to lead them to prosperous times.;)

On the plus side: could see D:Ream get back in the charts
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Do you know how much money Peter Cunnah has lost since Labour used that song, it was a regular radio song until they used it now it's barely played as it's political I read once he regretted them using it.
 
trancemonkey said:
I live 15 minutes from Burton... ;)

I Don't believe that polish people have come here and refused to integrate. In fact, most eatern Europeans I've met and that have worked for me are hard working and have a great work ethic.

Immigrants don't steal jobs... it's just that English people don't want to do them. It's a supply and demand world... it's not immigrants that have reduced wages per se.

If an immigrant who can barely speak English can steal your job, how shit must you be at it ;)

Anyway, I must add that I'm all for controlled immigration and against uncontrolled immigration, but if you think leaving the EU w will change wages and give British jobs back, I think you'll probably end up disappointed.[/QUO
i never said they “steal” jobs and the English do indeed have an issue in going out to work for minimum wage (we had a factory up the road from you in Swadlincote a relatively deprived area and they weren’t knocking the door down looking work of which there was plenty)
My issue is the open door policy welcoming all comers regardless of merit or numbers that’s my objection . We haven’t been able to get our own country in order for years now ,deal with our own schools /hospitals etc and welfare is killing us in cost and attitude. And we put far too much store in accommodating other peoples “way of life” if it was so great they maybe should of stayed where they were but come to us and you abide by the law of our land and we don’t need to be changing it to suit anybody
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i never said they “steal” jobs and the English do indeed have an issue in going out to work for minimum wage (we had a factory up the road from you in Swadlincote a relatively deprived area and they weren’t knocking the door down looking work of which there was plenty)
My issue is the open door policy welcoming all comers regardless of merit or numbers that’s my objection . We haven’t been able to get our own country in order for years now ,deal with our own schools /hospitals etc and welfare is killing us in cost and attitude. And we put far too much store in accommodating other peoples “way of life” if it was so great they maybe should of stayed where they were but come to us and you abide by the law of our land and we don’t need to be changing it to suit anybody[/QUOTE]
 
mac72 said:
i never said they “steal” jobs and the English do indeed have an issue in going out to work for minimum wage (we had a factory up the road from you in Swadlincote a relatively deprived area and they weren’t knocking the door down looking work of which there was plenty)
My issue is the open door policy welcoming all comers regardless of merit or numbers that’s my objection . We haven’t been able to get our own country in order for years now ,deal with our own schools /hospitals etc and welfare is killing us in cost and attitude. And we put far too much store in accommodating other peoples “way of life” if it was so great they maybe should of stayed where they were but come to us and you abide by the law of our land and we don’t need to be changing it to suit anybody
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[/QUOTE]

Plenty of people do say they steal jobs though, and a lot of people up here voted leave to 'stop them all coming over here and stealing our jobs', something I heard numerous times, saw on facebook etc. Never mind that certain businesses struggle to fill jobs, the hospital certainly seems to have a higher number of low level nurses, cleaners etc that are not UK born, and are always advertising for staff (thats not based on any facts, just observations). I was watching something about fruit picking down south and they were saying it was impossible to get UK white people to take the jobs, they had to rely on foreign workers or they would go out of business as the fruit wouldn't get picked.
I do agree with most your post, I was born in Southall, and when I started school there was so high a proportion of non English speaking kids, we moved away as my education was suffering, to the extent, when I started school up here 2.5 years later, I was 2 years behind the other kids. That was due to the school I started at having to spend so much time teaching English!
 

Plenty of people do say they steal jobs though, and a lot of people up here voted leave to 'stop them all coming over here and stealing our jobs', something I heard numerous times, saw on facebook etc. Never mind that certain businesses struggle to fill jobs, the hospital certainly seems to have a higher number of low level nurses, cleaners etc that are not UK born, and are always advertising for staff (thats not based on any facts, just observations). I was watching something about fruit picking down south and they were saying it was impossible to get UK white people to take the jobs, they had to rely on foreign workers or they would go out of business as the fruit wouldn't get picked.
I do agree with most your post, I was born in Southall, and when I started school there was so high a proportion of non English speaking kids, we moved away as my education was suffering, to the extent, when I started school up here 2.5 years later, I was 2 years behind the other kids. That was due to the school I started at having to spend so much time teaching English![/QUOTE]
But when we leave the EU we will decide who and in what numbers we let in, should we decide to still have a free for all we can decide to. Its all smoke and mirrors IMO anyway we pay for something we don't need that we should never have gotten so deeply sucked into.
 
But when we leave the EU we will decide who and in what numbers we let in, should we decide to still have a free for all we can decide to. Its all smoke and mirrors IMO anyway we pay for something we don't need that we should never have gotten so deeply sucked into.
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If we want to trade properly with the EU it's pretty much guaranteed we will have to have the same open door policy as we have now.
 
colinsunderland said:
They have a worse immigration problem than the UK don't they (from memory)? Sure I read somewhere about 25% of residents were actually from other countries.
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What I meant was that Switzerland as a country is doing just fine without being bound by European laws, interference etc. It suggests that a country can stand on its own two feet just fine.
 
interlog said:
What I meant was that Switzerland as a country is doing just fine without being bound by European laws, interference etc. It suggests that a country can stand on its own two feet just fine.
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Yes the UK certainly can (as can the rest of europe when we "help them")
 
interlog said:
What I meant was that Switzerland as a country is doing just fine without being bound by European laws, interference etc. It suggests that a country can stand on its own two feet just fine.
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But they do, its not compulsory but if they want free trade with the EU they have to accept some of their rules, such as free movement etc.

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Bear in my my comments was a reply to one stating we will have control over who we let into the country after Brexit, theres no evidence that that is correct, in fact the evidence of previous deals show that it is wrong.
 
colinsunderland said:
But they do, its not compulsory but if they want free trade with the EU they have to accept some of their rules, such as free movement etc.

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Bear in my my comments was a reply to one stating we will have control over who we let into the country after Brexit, theres no evidence that that is correct, in fact the evidence of previous deals show that it is wrong.
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Nope. May's deal (backstop aside) means EU citizens won't have unfettered access to the UK any more, and may only be brought in by employers via minimum standard job offers. Norway is nothing like the May deal. If you check the deal out, we still have free trade but will no longer be required to have open borders, a customs union or abide by ECHR rulings. Yes, there is an exit payment financial cost. Unmetered EU migration is NOT a requirement for free UK-EU market access. In fact there are only 35 words in the May deal, which essentially leave the free migration to be decided by the UK according to our specific needs. Our deal is not like Norway's or Switzerland's.
 
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Brexit has turned out to be a cataclysmic car crash of epic proportions, with both Labour and the Tories showing that they could not run a p up in a brewery. This new independent group could well be a breath of fresh air.

Regardless how I voted back in 2016, I will be getting Irish passports for my family, thanks due to my mum being Irish.
 
interlog said:
Compare residency for EU nationals in Switzerland:
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against EU nationals in the UK:
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It appears to be conditional -v- unconditional
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Yes, the UK is worded as if we are still in the EU, but is obviously subject to the events of Brexit. This is naturally going to have conditions added etc. when the deal is settled.
 
dunover said:
Nope. May's deal (backstop aside) means EU citizens won't have unfettered access to the UK any more, and may only be brought in by employers via minimum standard job offers. Norway is nothing like the May deal. If you check the deal out, we still have free trade but will no longer be required to have open borders, a customs union or abide by ECHR rulings. Yes, there is an exit payment financial cost. Unmetered EU migration is NOT a requirement for free UK-EU market access. In fact there are only 35 words in the May deal, which essentially leave the free migration to be decided by the UK according to our specific needs. Our deal is not like Norway's or Switzerland's.
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Ah right, when was that deal accepted?
 
colinsunderland said:
Ah right, when was that deal accepted?
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Alluding to your reference to 'after Brexit'. Perhaps I should have stated 'proposed deal' to make it more obvious. The deal we end up with will be May's with some backstop wording different or we will leave without one. Either way, we will have the control of our borders and migration again. The EU have already conceded that, when it actually happens. Therefore it will not be a Norway, which is about as bad as we could get.
 
dunover said:
Alluding to your reference to 'after Brexit'. Perhaps I should have stated 'proposed deal' to make it more obvious. The deal we end up with will be May's with some backstop wording different or we will leave without one. Either way, we will have the control of our borders and migration again. The EU have already conceded that, when it actually happens. Therefore it will not be a Norway, which is about as bad as we could get.
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Right so thats not guaranteed then? And its pretty much what we have now, we just choose not to control our borders properly, even though we have the power to. Why will leaving make a difference to that? Current EU rules state that migrants must prove that they are either working, actively seeking work or self-sufficient. Otherwise, they can be removed after three months.

Aside from that, most migrants are from outside the EU, so again, how will leaving the EU stop that? Do you think the people emigrating from the UK to EU countries should be stopped too, which isn't far off the amount who come to the UK from the EU?
 
colinsunderland said:
Right so thats not guaranteed then? And its pretty much what we have now, we just choose not to control our borders properly, even though we have the power to. Why will leaving make a difference to that? Current EU rules state that migrants must prove that they are either working, actively seeking work or self-sufficient. Otherwise, they can be removed after three months.

Aside from that, most migrants are from outside the EU, so again, how will leaving the EU stop that? Do you think the people emigrating from the UK to EU countries should be stopped too, which isn't far off the amount who come to the UK from the EU?
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Not far off :laugh::laugh:

3.8 million EU citizens in the UK
Around 3.8 million people living in the UK in 2018 were citizens of another EU country. That’s about 6% of the UK population, although these figures exclude people who live in communal establishments. Similarly, 6% of the UK population were born in another EU country.

1.3 million people from the UK live in the rest of the EU
Figures for 2017 suggest that 1.3 million people born in the UK live in other EU countries.


So I'd hardly call 3x more 'not far off the same'.....:thumbsup:

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dunover said:
Not far off :laugh::laugh:

3.8 million EU citizens in the UK
Around 3.8 million people living in the UK in 2018 were citizens of another EU country. That’s about 6% of the UK population, although these figures exclude people who live in communal establishments. Similarly, 6% of the UK population were born in another EU country.

1.3 million people from the UK live in the rest of the EU
Figures for 2017 suggest that 1.3 million people born in the UK live in other EU countries.


So I'd hardly call 3x more 'not far off the same'.....:thumbsup:

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The very first paragraph on that page states

An
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219,000 citizens from other EU countries immigrated to the UK in the year to June 2018, and about 145,000 emigrated abroad. So EU ‘net migration’ was around 74,000—the lowest level recorded since the year to September 2012.

219000 is not 3 times 145000

Again though, whatever the figures, you ignored the rest of my post. Typical 'leave' voter, very selectively answers questions, ignoring the ones that don't suit your views.
 
I don't trust this 'full fact' site

the following taken from their own website is very revealing:

"Full Fact, the UK's independent, non-partisan fact checking organisation has secured $500,000 in funding for two new automated tools to transform fact checking and the international battle against fake news. They are called LIVE and TRENDS.

Both tools will be based on one powerful and modular fact checking engine. Key fact checkers from around the world will be able to plug in custom components that make their work more effective.

The game-changing investment comes from the Omidyar Network, the leading philanthropic investment firm established by eBay founder Pierre Omidyar and Open Society Foundations, the largest philanthropic funder of human rights in the world, founded by George Soros. "[and funded by him too]
 
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colinsunderland said:
The very first paragraph on that page states

An
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219,000 citizens from other EU countries immigrated to the UK in the year to June 2018, and about 145,000 emigrated abroad. So EU ‘net migration’ was around 74,000—the lowest level recorded since the year to September 2012.

219000 is not 3 times 145000

Again though, whatever the figures, you ignored the rest of my post. Typical 'leave' voter, very selectively answers questions, ignoring the ones that don't suit your views.
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One year in isolation is hardly the issue it? The figures still show a medium-sized town's population entering the UK net, an unsustainable amount which stretches services, makes more demands on housing and has made our country the most densely populated in Europe.
So as I said the freedom of movement rules have resulted in 3x more entering than emigrating, from the EU. This is what voters were concerned about and you have chosen the lowest year's figures to conveniently justify your argument. Even allowing for that, that's still a massive net migration into the UK and the voters were certainly not focussing on any particular year, but the cumulative effect. Whatever figures you choose, it was the primary reason for many leave voters. A staggering 2.5 million extra people living here in this already overcrowded country. Go to the constituencies they settled in and then see where the biggest leave votes occurred.
 
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dunover said:
One year in isolation is hardly the issue it? The figures still show a medium-sized town's population entering the UK net, an unsustainable amount which stretches services, makes more demands on housing and has made our country the most densely populated in Europe.
So as I said the freedom of movement rules have resulted in 3x more entering than emigrating, from the EU. This is what voters were concerned about and you have chosen the lowest year's figures to conveniently justify your argument. E
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Well no, I used the most recent figures available, from the site you linked to. It also states lowest since 2012, so presumably 2012 was lower, so again, you are cherry picking what justifies your argument. You say its a medium size towns population, but is also less than 1% of London's population.
We have the 5th highest number of people who have left the UK to live in other EU countries, out of all EU countries, hardly insignificant.
Still waiting for you to answer how leaving the EU will stop the immigration problem though considering we have the power now to limit the number of people coming in by quite a substantial amount.
 
lowing for that
colinsunderland said:
Well no, I used the most recent figures available, from the site you linked to. It also states lowest since 2012, so presumably 2012 was lower, so again, you are cherry picking what justifies your argument. You say its a medium size towns population, but is also less than 1% of London's population.
We have the 5th highest number of people who have left the UK to live in other EU countries, out of all EU countries, hardly insignificant.
Still waiting for you to answer how leaving the EU will stop the immigration problem though considering we have the power now to limit the number of people coming in by quite a substantial amount.
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Well there's a shock!! Being one of the top 5 most populous nations in the EU.
To help you identify the obvious, after Brexit the pressure will be incumbent on any administration to ensure the concerns that lead to the Brexit vote are met. Yes, I am aware we could have limited migration, removed scroungers and criminals (as the French and Italians did with the Roma when their activities pissed too many off) under existing EU rules. The clowns in charge, of both parties, chose not to. If they had, I believe sincerely that enough of those voting leave would have not done so and remain would have narrowly won. So the irony in my view is that the liberals who can't even now accept we're leaving are reaping the rewards for their inaction.
 
dunover said:
lowing for that


Well there's a shock!! Being one of the top 5 most populous nations in the EU.
To help you identify the obvious, after Brexit the pressure will be incumbent on any administration to ensure the concerns that lead to the Brexit vote are met. Yes, I am aware we could have limited migration, removed scroungers and criminals (as the French and Italians did with the Roma when their activities pissed too many off) under existing EU rules. The clowns in charge, of both parties, chose not to. If they had, I believe sincerely that enough of those voting leave would have not done so and remain would have narrowly won. So the irony in my view is that the liberals who can't even now accept we're leaving are reaping the rewards for their inaction.
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ok, serious question, and to move away from the pointless arguments that neither of us will win :), do you think we will actually leave at the end of March? I don't. There's no way a deal will be in place by then, and I would be amazed if we left with no deal. May doesn't want to leave and never has, so I am certain she will do whatever she can to stop it happening, especially bearing in mind the referendum is not legally binding so she has no legal obligation to carry it out.
 
colinsunderland said:
ok, serious question, and to move away from the pointless arguments that neither of us will win :), do you think we will actually leave at the end of March? I don't. There's no way a deal will be in place by then, and I would be amazed if we left with no deal. May doesn't want to leave and never has, so I am certain she will do whatever she can to stop it happening, especially bearing in mind the referendum is not legally binding so she has no legal obligation to carry it out.
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No, but it's politically binding. Hence her getting us a deal, which ironically even the Gradinua paper has stated fulfils pretty much what the leavers voted for. I think she's playing the timeout on Parliament hoping that faced with her deal or none, MP's will pass it. To be fair to her I think she is genuinely trying to honour the result even if she didn't support it. The general election messed things up and immediately without an overall majority and a Con-UU coalition, the EU spotted a way to thwart us leaving.

I wouldn't be surprised if at the last minute a deal was approved in Parliament, if not I believe an extension will be applied for. I don't want to leave without a deal at all, but if the alternative was remaining I would take it.
 
It's not a very good name that they've chosen 'the Independent Group' sounds odd, people will think they're linked to the newspaper.

They also seem really pleased with themselves, as if its all a jolly jape, sixth form stuff.

edit : All the while they've disenfranchised their constituent's voters, who thought they were electing a labour or conservative mp, aligned to that party's manifesto and beliefs, not hitched up to chuka's new brainchild party.
 
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