Announcement from the GRA concerning Hilo and ReelDeal games

[plasticnote]

I've spent some time thinking about this over the last day and I've come to a couple of conclusions. Firstly, while many legitimate concerns appear to have been overlooked by the GRA, this in no small part seems to be validated by the GRA's low opinion of message board communities. Alongside this I feel that the GRA may be unaware of just how extensive the damage they are doing really is - the simple facts of the matter are that for every one person who reads a message board thread and posts, there are likely many more who don't post.

In an effort to convey the true extent of unhappiness about this decision, I've written an open letter to the GRA and set up a petition which can be found at

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

.

I'd like to encourage as many people as possible to get on board, sign the petition and let as many people as possible know about it. Perhaps this is insanely naive but if everyone gets involved, maybe we can do something about this.

ThePOGG

the response from GRA is shocking...

I totally agree with ThePOGG to take action.

 

[manuels58]

I've spent some time thinking about this over the last day and I've come to a couple of conclusions. Firstly, while many legitimate concerns appear to have been overlooked by the GRA, this in no small part seems to be validated by the GRA's low opinion of message board communities. Alongside this I feel that the GRA may be unaware of just how extensive the damage they are doing really is - the simple facts of the matter are that for every one person who reads a message board thread and posts, there are likely many more who don't post.

In an effort to convey the true extent of unhappiness about this decision, I've written an open letter to the GRA and set up a petition which can be found at

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

.

I'd like to encourage as many people as possible to get on board, sign the petition and let as many people as possible know about it. Perhaps this is insanely naive but if everyone gets involved, maybe we can do something about this.

ThePOGG

You need to tidy this up if it will fly. A summary of what happened and a specific request are a minimum for a petition, linking to an open letter just does not work.

I think ThePOGG' initiative is praiseworthy and deserves us to help him to give it wings. :notworthy

Since this is something that must be performed by an English native person/group, I expect those members in such "category" to produce that document and thence, to go ahead with this matter - a massive complaint.

I'm ready to sign that final document.

 

[ThePOGG]

If someone can put together something that would likely be more effective that my efforts, I'd be happy to sign it myself and give it coverage on thepogg.com.

 

[smcinoz]

because as far as I can see - the GRA is slightly less use than the proverbial chocolate teapot.

Great post chops but i must say


I Want A Chocolate Teapot

 

[ThePOGG]

I'd like to say a public thanks to Richas, he's provided a vastly improved petition outline, elegantly put together as always. You can find it at

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

. I'm really hopeful that the player community can use its weight here to do some good.

I'd also like to thank Richas for his previous reference to the UKGC/William Hill ruling that I've referenced in my own report - it was exceptionally useful.

 

[mrmark21]

Good to see affiliates looking after players. Now all we need is for the GRA to get on board.

 

[MisterBJ]

ThePOGG you have my and im sure majority of the members here full support. It makes me proud to be a member of CM forum. Real Change

 

[manuels58]

I'd like to say a public thanks to Richas, he's provided a vastly improved petition outline, elegantly put together as always. You can find it at

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

. I'm really hopeful that the player community can use its weight here to do some good.

I'd also like to thank Richas for his previous reference to the UKGC/William Hill ruling that I've referenced in my own report - it was exceptionally useful.

Signed!

Kudos to ThePOGG and to Richas for having had the time and patience "to cook the soup for us to eat it"

 

[zanzibar]

These games, in all versions, have been subject to independent testing and do behave entirely randomly, they are not ‘adaptive’ or illegal in any way. Thet do not ‘misrepresent’ the players’ chances. The error was in the production and presentation of a discrepancy in the paytables.

The discrepancy occurred over an extended time frame and due to an initial error not being detected, and it allowing a second error to occur. As is the case with errors, the record of the errors occurring is not precise. That this was ‘an error on an error’ has also made it difficult to reverse engineer and isolate the mistakes. That said, neither error affected the performance of the PFR games but they did affect the apparent performance of the PFF games and ultimately the content of the paytable for Fixed Price PFR.

I would like to call out this particular part of the GRA's statement for the pure unmitigated bullshit that it is.

As pointed out by myself and others in the 60+ page thread that the GRA representative felt was beneath him to actually read, at least one of the hi-lo games was deliberately programmed to tilt the odds in the player's favour in fun mode. It is completely adaptive because it does not allow a player to spin any of the three numbers that they currently see on the hi-lo board. This absolutely does misrepresent the player's chances.

Let's be completely clear on this. It wasn't a bug or an error. Firebug logs of the communication between the client and the game server proved that the game was rigged. It was a deliberate decision made by a programmer to allow numbers to be excluded from the next spin, thus eliminating the possibility of a tie and in some cases making it impossible to lose. The game had been rigged like that for over 3 years!

The proof is still there in the thread GRA. It was provided to you on a plate. All you had to do was read it. Here's a direct link that even someone without the attention span required to wade through a 60+ page thread could click.
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/finsoft-spielo-g2-games-issue.54475/

 

[binary128]

When I read the GRA document I was stunned. I remain stunned.

I have a vague memory of a statement - "This is so bad it does not even rise to the level of wrong."

Perhaps the most disheartening aspect of the GRA publication is that this sad, sad document represents the decision of the highest authority in the world regarding this entire situation.

Chris

 

[Casinomeister]

As some of you may have guessed, I'm on the road at the moment, but I have been in touch with Mr. Brear. here is a follow up comment that he requested for me to publish.

I have read the new thread and can't say I am surprised by the
comments.
First, the response was provided to Casinomeister as a response
to the earlier thread. It is not a press statement, it is not a
formal ruling, it is commentary 'in kind' to Casinomeister users.
If you can't stand the heat........... Secondly, so many people,
once again, make comments without reading or working out what has
been done and what is being said, and blind themselves with their
own lack of understanding. The game is derived from a long
established slot game, it does not represent a card game. The
game 'rule' people refer to applies to representations of dice
games, card games, roulette etc. The game cannot be a
representation of a pack of cards, how could it pay 12x etc. if
all cards had an equal chance of being picked?
The other regulatory case that is being cited relates to a game
with a known fault being allowed to continue by the operator for
three months on up to 8000 FOBT machines in 2000 betting shops.
Do the maths, it is a ?50 per month fine per shop for a known
error being allowed to continue, maybe because it was too
expensive or too inconvenient to fix it, and the local
regulations allowed that to happen? I look forward to seeing who
actually signs the petition and comes out from behind their
shield(s) of anonymity. Some of you might not like the stand we
take against fraud, deceit and multiple identities etc. katie91
pretended to be his sister, well at least one of you is pretends
to be your mother! Be assured we are as firm with the operators
and their staff as we are with customers. That is why a Gibraltar
licence is the hardest one to get. Finally, read what I have
written for you. Enforcement requires evidence, evidence has to
be credible, penalties have to match the offending. Bugs happen,
all operators' rules make this clear. The Rules of natural
justice apply, not those of the barrack room, or a forum.

Phill Brear
Gambling Commissioner
Gibraltar

 

[chayton]

oh well, that's much better.

 

[Borgie]

I find this really disturbing.

As a forum member I feel threatened by this man

If there are people on here who are pretending to be someone they are not how would he know that?
If someone had a duplicate account how would he know? Surely only Bryan or Max etc would know that

He will probably read my post and assume I am guilty - I'm not and I am who I say I am but I feel guilty for just writing on this thread. Like he is watching me

It seems to have become all about the evil people on here who are up to no good !

Am I missing something?

 

[shapesy]

the words twist knickers and in spring to mind. dont like the truth these people so used to people saying yes to them

 

[Webzcas]

As some of you may have guessed, I'm on the road at the moment, but I have been in touch with Mr. Brear. here is a follow up comment that he requested for me to publish.

If these are not statements from the GRA but just commentary, maybe Mr Brear would be advised to take a vow of silence on this matter. As I am afraid he is just digging a much bigger hole for himself and also the GRA who he represents.

I am truly stunned that these are the words of the Gambling Commissioner of Gibraltar.

I look forward to seeing who actually signs the petition and comes out from behind their shield(s) of anonymity.

The abrasive tone of this response and the original statement ( commentary or whatever ) makes me want to sign the petition. BTW like many of the members here, I am hardly anonymous Mr Brear.

As for this comment:

The Rules of natural justice apply, not those of the barrack room, or a forum.

This 'barrack room' or forum happens to be one of the most popular forums with players and operators alike concerning online casinos.

 

[Mousey]

Ah! Good!

The game is derived from a long
established slot game, it does not represent a card game.

Now, you people that have/had access to this game please tell us if it is listed/categorized in the casino as a slot machine? Carnival game perhaps?

In the world of online casinos, how is one to know the difference between a real card game (Video Poker, for instance) and a slot machine with cards?


Edited to add: He don't like us very much do he? (w/apologies to Bugs Bunny)

 

[Richas]

The other regulatory case that is being cited relates to a game
with a known fault being allowed to continue by the operator for
three months on up to 8000 FOBT machines in 2000 betting shops.
Do the maths, it is a ?50 per month fine per shop for a known
error being allowed to continue, maybe because it was too
expensive or too inconvenient to fix it, and the local
regulations allowed that to happen? I

The fault lasted in total for three months. It was detected by the supplier and reported to the regulator, it was not found by a player (fraudulent or otherwise) it was found via their financial checks on game performance.

I find it amusing that the GRA see £50 per shop per month as too low a punishment. The GRA alternative is to do zero, nothing, nadir, zip, nowt.

The £300k was based on ensuring that the operator made no gain from the error. How about we apply the same test to this error? The fault in this case ran from 2004 until the end of 2012! It was not self reported/detected which makes it worse but they will have the records to show how much was won by the site(s) with this game. If as the GRA say the sums are insignificant why not make the sites repay them or donate them to charity? The sites should not profit from a bug.

 

[Balthazar]

Some of you might not like the stand we
take against fraud, deceit and multiple identities etc. katie91
pretended to be his sister, well at least one of you is pretends
to be your mother!

Is this guy for real? Is he really working for the GRA?

 

[bpb]

How is player fraud even remotely relevant to the discussion? Yet that seems to be the topic of the majority of the GRA's response.

 

[questa]

Is this guy for real? Is he really working for the GRA?

I've reach the conclusion that I must have overdone it on the cheese last night, and this is some kind of weird dream. I can't think of any other explanation for the statements supposedly being made by the Gambling Commissioner of Gibraltar.

Truly incredible.

 

[manuels58]

"I look forward to seeing who actually signs the petition and comes out from behind their shield(s) of anonymity." (sic)

I signed the aforementioned petition and I felt threatened by this statement.

I surely am one of the members in this forum who discloses more personal information in his profile so, I don't fear to be "not anonymous".

In view of this statement made by the representative of a public authority (as per his own words on the GRA first document: "Fourthly we, as a public authority, must operate within the law."), I dare Mr. Phill Brear to clearly explain what he intended with that statement, or should I say veiling threat.

I can't stand this kind of threat from you nor from anybody else.
If you can't deal with the stress of your job, nor with the public opinion about your decisions, then you should resign from your post.

I should add that I have already asked my lawyer to study this matter as one of being a threat against my rights of citizenship.

 

[GOCC]

I thought the first statement, commentary, released document et al was arrogant and possibly a rushed affair that came across wrong as no on ein their right mind would actually put their name to it if they were in some form of authority.

But no, the second document concurs that the man is out of touch, no idea what hes doing (Doesnt represent a card game but a slot), completely ignoring the actual points (OP was a fraud, well yeh, so was the Casino with misrepresentation) and someone who resorts to arrogance when in a corner.

 

[visaria]

The customer loss/operator gain is not significant

I lost £800. Since it's not significant, can I have a refund, please?

 

[Balthazar]

I thought the first statement, commentary, released document et al was arrogant and possibly a rushed affair that came across wrong

It took 6 months to reply to the thread, it sure wasn't rushed. This guy sounds like a teenager posting from his mom's basement, I don't understand why he's so on the defensive and the things that he posts are totally irrelevant to the issue.

Why is he this concerned about katie19? It's Betfred's money, not the GRA's. I see no reason for him to take what katie19 did on a personal level like that. I'd expect this kind of reply from a rogue casino that's on the defense, not from a commission. AFAIK, no one accused the GRA of anything (until this thread, that is), he had no reason to come out like that. He didn't even have a reason to mention katie19 at all (that was Betfred's job!).

This is very strange.

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

Brear stated above:

The game cannot be a representation of a pack of cards, how could it pay 12x etc.

His ignorance of the mathematics of gambling is profound. He also said:

The error was in the production and presentation of a discrepancy in the paytables.

This sentence, explaining the error, is gibberish. I cannot make sense of this at all. Also, one has to wonder at the following:

First, the response was provided to Casinomeister as a response to the earlier thread. It is not a press statement, it is not a formal ruling

One has to ask, when is his final and official report going to be released?

Mr. Brear,

You, as the top representative of the GRA, are obligated to reach fair and well thought-out conclusions about matters such as this. I personally welcome any conclusion you reach, though I may not agree with it, so long as you present a well thought out and well-supported argument. Such a response would be a starting point for a conversation about the real issues that are driving this dispute. What you have written is an embarrassment to the GRA and casts real doubt on the GRA's ability to even understand its obligations.