Announcement from the GRA concerning Hilo and ReelDeal games

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just play

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32Red for example are licensed out of Gibraltar, which given what we have seen over this fiasco, means they are effectively completely unregulated. I'm not sure I want to play at an unregulated casino, however much I might trust the casino itself.


This brings out my curious mind...I'm wondering how many of us will still play at these casinos?

Will players close accounts now, or will it be business as usual?
 

maphesto

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This brings out my curious mind...I'm wondering how many of us will still play at these casinos?

Will players close accounts now, or will it be business as usual?

I don't think that 32red will lose any players at all. Maybe Chopley. :D

As we can see among members here, many play at unlicenced (or hidden/secret...who knows :what: ) Lucky Club Casino and Liberty Slots.

We can hope that serious business (as 32red) move to better places. :)
 

Richas

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This brings out my curious mind...I'm wondering how many of us will still play at these casinos?

Will players close accounts now, or will it be business as usual?

Oh most will play and in terms of the reputable sites most are in Gib. The bit I don't get is that the GRA is failing so miserably here that they have just stuffed the potential legal challenge by their licensees to the UK Governments Gambling (Licensing and Advertising) Bill that is coming in ahead of the point of consumption tax on UK players.

Please contrast this statement from the GRA with this press release from the UKGC on a very similar issue where a FOBT was run with a falsely advertised RTP (oh yeah and a requirement to give a RTP figure). I will quote it in full just to show the contrast to the GRA.
Old / Expired Link

Joint press release on behalf the Gambling Commission, Inspired Gaming Group and William Hill Organisation Limited

Press release Date: 14 February 2013

Inspired Gaming Group and William Hill Organisation Limited:

Gaming Machine Supplier Inspired Gaming Group (“IGG”) and William Hill Organisation Ltd (“William Hill”) have agreed to make a joint ex gratia payment of £300,000 to the Responsible Gambling Trust; to be used at the Trust's discretion.

The payment, which is being made with the agreement of the Gambling Commission, relates to a self reported notifiable event which occurred when an updated version of a Category B3 game, Reel King (developed by Astra Games) was uploaded to the William Hill retail estate in May 2012. As a result of a technical fault the return to player (RTP) percentage advertised in the game help pages did not reflect the actual average RTP percentage of this random B3 game. Once the technical fault was confirmed, an immediate report was made to the Gambling Commission, but the displayed return to player was not corrected until the fault was rectified by the end of July 2012.

Whilst individual customers are unlikely to have been significantly disadvantaged, it is recognised by both parties that there has been a breach of the technical standards, as the required integration testing was incomplete, and that as a result customers were given incorrect information as to the intended RTP, which persisted after the error was identified. While the impact on individual customers would have been minimal, this was not in accordance with the licensing objective to be fair and open, nor with our corporate policies and priorities, which require adherence at all times and in all respects to the licensing objectives.

Both IGG and William Hill regret this incident, which revealed some deficiencies in the way in which our corporate commitment to social responsibility was reflected in practice. This has since been remedied and William Hill apologises unreservedly to those customers who may have been affected. Both companies re-affirm their commitment to comply with their regulatory obligations, particularly those around ensuring customer fairness at all times.

Matthew Hill from the Gambling Commission said:

"The Gambling Commission (“the Commission”) acknowledges that both Inspired Gaming Group (“IGG”) and the William Hill Organisation Ltd (“William Hill”) reported the fault, as required, at the earliest opportunity and kept the Commission closely informed with the progress of investigations. The Commission welcomes the way IGG and William Hill reacted once they became aware of the issue and commend the remedial efforts they have taken to ensure that the licensing objectives are given proper priority. The Commission welcomes the ex gratia payment that has been made in recognition that they would not wish to benefit commercially from this event and their agreement that the lessons learnt from this episode should be shared with other operators.

The Commission would therefore like to take this opportunity to remind all operators that:

It will hold Boards and key PMLs accountable for making sure social responsibility and adherence to the licensing objectives are central considerations.
Operators will not be permitted to benefit commercially from any failures to give proper priority to social responsibility.
Operators should be open as early as possible with notifiable events (as IGG and William Hill were) and as required by licence condition on key events or they will exacerbate the risk of regulatory sanctions."
Ends
 

just play

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I don't think that 32red will lose any players at all. Maybe Chopley. :D

As we can see among members here, many play at unlicenced (or hidden/secret...who knows :what: ) Lucky Club Casino and Liberty Slots.

We can hope that serious business (as 32red) move to better places. :)


What about the 3 casinos in question?
 

LaHutti

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It's sometimes called smoke.

No one gave a crap about the OP, he's irrelevant. He could be the most dishonest man on Earth and it wouldn't change a damn thing. I can't believe that they spent that much time talking about him and what he did. Very unprofessional.

This statement was as disappointing as I was expecting it to be.
 

just play

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Ah...I saw that you used 32red in the quote from Chopley...maybe I misunderstood. :oops:

Well, I don't play at those casinos in question. There´s my answer to the question in mind. :p


No, it was me who worded (or quoted wrong)

I did mean 32Red, but I also meant the other 3 as well. Sorry.


If other casinos are licensed out of Gibraltar, what makes them different? What happens if down the road someone finds out about a gaffed game at one of them? The same will happen no? (I am very naive about casinos licenses, what that even means, my mind is always racing, so the questions just poor out of it, lol.)
 

gloria460

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I can't believe that statement came from a regulator. He sounds like somebody who is in business with the casino defending them against a person who has soiled their name. This statement is unbelievable.
 

questa

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He didn't even bother to run a spell checker on his ridiculous statement.
The level of contempt shown for players is breathtaking.
 

Balthazar

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He didn't even bother to run a spell checker on his ridiculous statement.
The level of contempt shown for players is breathtaking.

His statement in a nutshell:

-The OP was a crook.
-The casino is supposed to win and you're supposed to lose
-There was an error in the PFF mode

Not a single word on the real issue: the rigged card game.

Since the GRA approves rigged card games, there's no reason to believe that they don't approve rigged roulette, rigged keno, rigged blackjack and so on.

These commissions make money from the casinos (by licensing), they will do whatever they can to keep their cash cows. They are paid to watch the people that pay them, it cannot work.
 

Nifty29

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For one of the first times ever I'm speechless.


I can't believe this would come from any professional entity, let alone a Licencing Authority of a major Industry that involves a level of consumer trust.

Take out the tirades about the OP and who supported the OP and you're left with a few lines about what is common knowledge already. I can't believe nothing about sanctions or reimbursement or any punitive or restorative action was mentioned.

Beyond that, I just don't know what to say, but IMO Richas et al have raised some very good questions that need to be answered.
 

dionysus

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A third important element was the contributions to the thread by people with biased perspectives. This is why we asked Elliot to take it down (which he declined). The words ‘kangaroo court’, ‘hysterical witch-hunt’ and ‘stoking the flames’ come to mind when reading many contributions. This is aggravated by us knowing who some of the contributors are, the irregular practices some of them engage in themselves, and the agendas that some of them are pushing. These comments do not apply to all of the contributors, but many of them reading this will know that they too have ‘dirty hands’ in terms of their own account activities, or were pursuing private agendas rather than properly assessing the merits of the complaint.

You might want to dissect my points and continue to debate the issue, but the case is now closed, everyone needs to learn from it and move on.


well,aren't those nasty little slaps in the face.
 

bigjohn

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So, basically, according to the GRA, if there is a problem with a game as long as nobody notices it or mentions it there is no problem. The only problem arises when they are required to act. If licensees pay their fees and players keep their mouths shut there will be no problems. Amazing.
 

MisterBJ

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Im sorry, but you guys would be fools to support GRA casinos again. Draw a line in the sand, and make those casinos change the way they do business. Or they won't be getting your business any longer. GRA thinks they can treat you any kind of way. There are enough members here a CM to make GRA buckle. Please DO NOT allow them to get away with this. This could be the turning point. In which the players can show them enough is enough. We want a fair gambling environment with fair terms and fair gaming. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!!!
 

mrmark21

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Finally, as far as I am concerned the GRA should be immediately removed from Bryan's 'high' category and busted straight down to Costa Rica status (or worse). Any casino that licenses itself out of Gibraltar should IMO think very carefully about the sham of a regulator it is sullying its name with, because as far as I can see - the GRA is slightly less use than the proverbial chocolate teapot.

Couldn't agree more... The GRA should be removed from the 'high' category and thrown right into the pits. Problem is though, how's that going to look for accredited casinos?

The statement from the GRA is disturbing. They sound as though their idea of a resolution is the following:

1. Blame the fraudulent player.
2. Ignore all the important questions or palm them off.
3. Give the casinos a slap on the wrist.
4. Then carry on taking fees from licencees and not regulating much of anything (which is exactly what the GRA is supposed to be doing REGULATING)!
5. Pretend all's well that ends well...

IMO the GRA is a sham: The proof is in the pudding.


P.s. As a player at these GRA "regulated" casinos I'm angry. I think we should all be. We expect a fair game. IMO there are probably more gaffed games where that came from. We just don't know about them (YET). We have all witnessed first hand what happens when these issues are reported to the GRA.
 

mattsgame

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Interesting reading.

Old / Expired Link

Old / Expired Link

View attachment 39864

So the GRA or Mr Brear has had dealings with complaints and Betfred before? :rolleyes:

Albeit these players went further and sued, I guess players that are aware of this situation and played the said games maybe should look at the same course of action?

Will any of this affect the licensed casinos out of GRA to accept U.K players in the future? surely the U.K regulators are not as stupid?
 

jetset

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Like many others here I am shocked and astonished at the unprofessional presentation of this report and the arrogant, apprently biased attitude of a man who is supposed to be the independent and fair chief of a respectable regulatory body.

Can it really be that the GRA is incapable of seeing the problem at the heart of this affair - essentially a card game that doesn't behave like a 52 card deck card game? Or is that central issue being deliberately ignored and buried in a morass of accusations and equivocation?

To not even deliver a slap on the wrist not only insults the consumer, but carries the danger of setting a very dangerous precedent among operators licensed by this regulator.

This communication will do little to earn respect for the GRA as a reliable and impartial regulator, and could provide useful ammunition for lawyers countering the threatened Gibraltar litigation against the forthcoming British point-of-consumption tax. I cannot imagine the UK Gambling Commission pushing out something as unprofessional as this.

The aggressive, partisan and judgemental attitude is entirely inappropriate for what should be an impersonal, professional assessment of a set of genuinely questionable circumstances, and the strikingly negative opinion and lack of respect for consumers comes through clearly - in sharp contrast to the writer's almost subservient respect for his licensees.

Previous posters in this thread have said it all, and I find myself in agreement with most of them - if this is the attitude of this regulator, it should not be classified on CM as "high' in reliability or capability.
 

Webzcas

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Like many others here I am shocked and astonished at the unprofessional presentation of this report and the arrogant, apprently biased attitude of a man who is supposed to be the independent and fair chief of a respectable regulatory body.

Can it really be that the GRA is incapable of seeing the problem at the heart of this affair - essentially a card game that doesn't behave like a 52 card deck card game? Or is that central issue being deliberately ignored and buried in a morass of accusations and equivocation?

To not even deliver a slap on the wrist not only insults the consumer, but carries the danger of setting a very dangerous precedent among operators licensed by this regulator.

This communication will do little to earn respect for the GRA as a reliable and impartial regulator, and could provide useful ammunition for lawyers countering the threatened Gibraltar litigation against the forthcoming British point-of-consumption tax. I cannot imagine the UK Gambling Commission pushing out something as unprofessional as this.

The aggressive, partisan and judgemental attitude is entirely inappropriate for what should be an impersonal, professional assessment of a set of genuinely questionable circumstances, and the strikingly negative opinion and lack of respect for consumers comes through clearly - in sharp contrast to the writer's almost subservient respect for his licensees.

Previous posters in this thread have said it all, and I find myself in agreement with most of them - if this is the attitude of this regulator, it should not be classified on CM as "high' in reliability or capability.

Succinctly put Jetset. I would imagine also that most of the operators licensed in Gibraltar are incensed at this report from Mr Brear. A report that took around half a year to cobble together. The GRA have it seems blown off both their feet with this report. :(
 

ThePOGG

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Petition

I've spent some time thinking about this over the last day and I've come to a couple of conclusions. Firstly, while many legitimate concerns appear to have been overlooked by the GRA, this in no small part seems to be validated by the GRA's low opinion of message board communities. Alongside this I feel that the GRA may be unaware of just how extensive the damage they are doing really is - the simple facts of the matter are that for every one person who reads a message board thread and posts, there are likely many more who don't post.

In an effort to convey the true extent of unhappiness about this decision, I've written an open letter to the GRA and set up a petition which can be found at
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
.

I'd like to encourage as many people as possible to get on board, sign the petition and let as many people as possible know about it. Perhaps this is insanely naive but if everyone gets involved, maybe we can do something about this.

ThePOGG
 

Richas

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I've spent some time thinking about this over the last day and I've come to a couple of conclusions. Firstly, while many legitimate concerns appear to have been overlooked by the GRA, this in no small part seems to be validated by the GRA's low opinion of message board communities. Alongside this I feel that the GRA may be unaware of just how extensive the damage they are doing really is - the simple facts of the matter are that for every one person who reads a message board thread and posts, there are likely many more who don't post.

In an effort to convey the true extent of unhappiness about this decision, I've written an open letter to the GRA and set up a petition which can be found at
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
.

I'd like to encourage as many people as possible to get on board, sign the petition and let as many people as possible know about it. Perhaps this is insanely naive but if everyone gets involved, maybe we can do something about this.

ThePOGG

You need to tidy this up if it will fly. A summary of what happened and a specific request are a minimum for a petition, linking to an open letter just does not work.
 

ThePOGG

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You need to tidy this up if it will fly. A summary of what happened and a specific request are a minimum for a petition, linking to an open letter just does not work.

Sounds good and I'm open to suggestions - if you forward some on to me I'll make the necessary changes. It's a rather involved topic to summarize without sounding like an attack and there are several things I can think of that I'd like to happen. You know my email address.

ThePOGG

[EDIT] I've taken another look - see what you think.
 
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