Labour MP's resign from the party

[trancemonkey]

To give us something to chat about that is 100% rigged (unless trancemonkey has a different viewpoint)

No... You're probably right

 

[trancemonkey]

This swings both ways though, those voting remain have no idea what new laws the EU would bring in next year or whenever, ...

You mean the laws the UK currently has the power of Veto on, but doesn't exercise most of the time. Or are you forgetting that we have that power...

But now of course the EU can make laws which will directly or indirectly affect is and there is naff all we can do about it...

 

[dunover]

But is the desire of a sovereign nation state somewhat utopian in nature these days? One could argue, that the traditional nation state ideology is weakening, while the issues they encounter are global. The world economies and especially the flow of money exist more and more in a global space. All countries embedded in the same system.

The relocation of governance and influence from the national to the transnational and global planes is advancing. Do we still need traditional nation states? You can be proud and have traditions and local culture without hard borders and walls.

Tell that to the native peoples of Africa, North America, South America and Australia whom have all long lost their original identity aside from small pockets - because they had no borders or sufficient means of self-protection.

 

[mack341]

You mean the laws the UK currently has the power of Veto on, but doesn't exercise most of the time. Or are you forgetting that we have that power...

But now of course the EU can make laws which will directly or indirectly affect is and there is naff all we can do about it...

this is taken from a pro remain fact check website, as if politics was ever the realm of unadulterated truth, tons of which have sprung up:

"Not all EU decisions affecting the UK can be passed against its wishes. Some important issues can only be decided if every country voting agrees. [therefore some can]

These areas

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foreign affairs, taxation, justice and the EU budget. If the UK is adamantly opposed to a law requiring unanimous approval, it's unlikely to make it as far as a vote.

But in other areas, majorities are enough. Under the new system for majority voting, a law has to pass two hurdles.

First,

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member states have to vote for it. In special cases, it's

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.

The UK naturally counts for only 1/28th from this point of view."


But I agree in probably many instances the uk government chooses not to use its veto, but is it any wonder when the establishment is obsessed with obeying the EU and downgrading our own democracy, people had to fight to get democracy in this country, before the reform acts only the wealthy and landowners got to vote, the common man has effectively had the right to vote for 100 years [1918] that's it, probably the same across most of europe.

The EU have decided to go down the federalist route, [a system of government in which several states unite under a central authority] which obviously diminishes the effect and role of democracy in the individual countries. Some people currently see membership of the EU as basically like a benelovent dictatorship, but what will they be able to do if the laws become less benelovent and by that time the EU army is well established and other things possibly police forces etc... obviously this is a dystopian view of it but it becomes possible once the individual democratic influence of people is diminished.

 

[ternur]

Tell that to the native peoples of Africa, North America, South America and Australia whom have all long lost their original identity aside from small pockets - because they had no borders or sufficient means of self-protection.

Quite right you are there. But those are mainly examples of conquering forces and they then starting their flag-waving and their 'right' to 'their sovereignty'. Application of external force to make others see your way is the right way.

But not quite what I was asking for. I was wondering more on the philosophical rationale of the definition of nation state today. You can always justify borders, walls and war with the need to protect your culture, your ways and traditions against outside evil. It's the country level version of 'us' vs. 'them'. Or the prevailing culture of me, myself and I. Those are theoretical constructions which I personally dislike.

But is it the answer? Do we need to have this kind adversial system today? Is the world a better place with Brexit and rise of nationalism in many places around the globe?

I'm just thinking out loud in a general level. Maybe strong nation states indeed are the right way for people to coexist. Who knows. I certainly don't.

 

[mack341]

Quite right you are there. But those are mainly examples of conquering forces and they then starting their flag-waving and their 'right' to 'their sovereignty'. Application of external force to make others see your way is the right way.

But not quite what I was asking for. I was wondering more on the philosophical rationale of the definition of nation state today. You can always justify borders, walls and war with the need to protect your culture, your ways and traditions against outside evil. It's the country level version of 'us' vs. 'them'. Or the prevailing culture of me, myself and I. Those are theoretical constructions which I personally dislike.

But is it the answer? Do we need to have this kind adversial system today? Is the world a better place with Brexit and rise of nationalism in many places around the globe?

I'm just thinking out loud in a general level. Maybe strong nation states indeed are the right way for people to coexist. Who knows. I certainly don't.

you could just replace the word nationalism with localism, and say do we need localism? should people have a say in how their local area is run, why not just centralise it? But that's why the scots and welsh have devolved parliaments, because they're better able than london to decide on matters local to them.

Negative connotations re nationalism have built up over the last 50-100 years, but I think you have to seperate the history of nations at war from the essential value of nation state democracy. "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." so if you had a single global government with absolute power [which obviously it would have] it would be corrupt. The EU has almost absolute power over the individual countries and they are seeking to obtain more power, its only going to go in one direction.

Concentration of power in fewer hands in running the world...its a recipe for human disaster.

 

[pinnit2014]

you could just replace the word nationalism with localism, and say do we need localism? should people have a say in how their local area is run, why not just centralise it? But that's why the scots and welsh have devolved parliaments, because they're better able than london to decide on matters local to them.

Negative connotations re nationalism have built up over the last 50-100 years, but I think you have to seperate the history of nations at war from the essential value of nation state democracy. ""Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." so if you had a single global government with absolute power [which obviously it would have] it would be corrupt. The EU has almost absolute power over the individual countries and they are seeking to obtain more power, its only going to go in one direction.

Concentration of power in fewer hands in running the world...its a recipe for human disaster.

Good job you never mentioned the shambolic N Irish one as an example of it being done well

Out of curiosity Mack - where do you see Nationalism going in the short/medium term? I (naively) would have presumed that as older generations passed out and with younger generations perhaps not quite feeling the whole ethos of being part of a Nation (more 'citizens of the world'), it would be on the decline? - but it's clear that some countries are having an upsurge in it in recent times.

 

[dunover]

Quite right you are there. But those are mainly examples of conquering forces and they then starting their flag-waving and their 'right' to 'their sovereignty'. Application of external force to make others see your way is the right way.

But not quite what I was asking for. I was wondering more on the philosophical rationale of the definition of nation state today. You can always justify borders, walls and war with the need to protect your culture, your ways and traditions against outside evil. It's the country level version of 'us' vs. 'them'. Or the prevailing culture of me, myself and I. Those are theoretical constructions which I personally dislike.

But is it the answer? Do we need to have this kind adversial system today? Is the world a better place with Brexit and rise of nationalism in many places around the globe?

I'm just thinking out loud in a general level. Maybe strong nation states indeed are the right way for people to coexist. Who knows. I certainly don't.

Taking that on a micro scale, why live in locked and closed houses? It's the innate human desire for comfort and security and existing amongst similar people they are familiar with. Whether that natural desire or need is supplanted by force or by weakness via bad decisions, the effects are fundamentally the same.

Many constructions are not theoretical but indeed natural through evolution and especially in the case of island nations, geography.

You could argue that the UK is to Europe what Japan is to the Far East - they belong to the same regional group of peoples as the Chinese, Vietnamese etc. but unlike those countries have had little outside interference over the centuries so are notably distinct in their society. Would the Japanese though vote for open borders, laws made in Taiwan and court powers from Ho Chi Minh City in exchange for mutual production and open market trade rules, if it was put to them? I think not!

If however they entered a trade-based economic area and over the subsequent 40 years those things crept up on them by stealth, then it's possible. Then the moment of realization that you've all been 'had' inevitably occurs. So you try and extricate yourselves.

 

[mac72]

I suppose a gambling forum actually is the right place for a brexit discussion as this whole EU rubbish is just the UK playing juncker’s EU slot , financially we’re always going to be worse off albeit with the illusion of “winning” sometimes and the longer we play the more it fleeces us.

 

[colinsunderland]

this is taken from a pro remain fact check website, as if politics was ever the realm of unadulterated truth, tons of which have sprung up:

"Not all EU decisions affecting the UK can be passed against its wishes. Some important issues can only be decided if every country voting agrees. [therefore some can]

These areas

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

foreign affairs, taxation, justice and the EU budget. If the UK is adamantly opposed to a law requiring unanimous approval, it's unlikely to make it as far as a vote.

But in other areas, majorities are enough. Under the new system for majority voting, a law has to pass two hurdles.

First,

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

member states have to vote for it. In special cases, it's

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

.

The UK naturally counts for only 1/28th from this point of view."


But I agree in probably many instances the uk government chooses not to use its veto, but is it any wonder when the establishment is obsessed with obeying the EU and downgrading our own democracy, people had to fight to get democracy in this country, before the reform acts only the wealthy and landowners got to vote, the common man has effectively had the right to vote for 100 years [1918] that's it, probably the same across most of europe.

The EU have decided to go down the federalist route, [a system of government in which several states unite under a central authority] which obviously diminishes the effect and role of democracy in the individual countries. Some people currently see membership of the EU as basically like a benelovent dictatorship, but what will they be able to do if the laws become less benelovent and by that time the EU army is well established and other things possibly police forces etc... obviously this is a dystopian view of it but it becomes possible once the individual democratic influence of people is diminished.

So which laws have we had to adopt that you, or anyone else, disagree with?

 

[colinsunderland]

You could say that about the time when WERE in the EU and unemployment hit over 3 million. Things got better. How many jobs have been lost so far, with Brexit the sole cause? You are also assuming we'll be leaving no-deal and have clearly taken up the mantle of the 'worst case scenario' remainers.

Conversely, can you say yourself how many jobs will be lost, or exactly how much of the economic issues are due solely to Brexit as opposed to a world slow-down plus the already dire situation the Mediterranean economies are in?

And again, as you seem to miss it every time I post it, I'm NOT opposed to leaving.
You have failed to answer a single question I've put in the thread to you, which is a typical reaction from people defending leave. Full of bluster about how bad the EU is and how great everything will be once we leave, but absolutely no solutions as to how that will be achieved.
No I can't say how many will be lost, but if you think the total will be zero then you might as well go and feed the unicorns living at the bottom of your garden while you live in that fantasy world.

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As of June 2018, 34% (75 out of 222) of the companies monitored in EY’s Financial Services Brexit Tracker had publicly confirmed, or stated their intentions, to move some of their operations and/or staff from the UK to Europe. This is a two-percentage point rise since March, building on the one-percentage point rise the previous quarter (December 2017).

This uptick is also evidenced in the number of firms to publicly confirm at least one location in Europe to move staff and/or operations to. As of June 2018, 24% (53 out of 222) had done so, compared with 21% (47 out of 222) in March 2018 and 19% (42 out of 222) in December 2017.

It is clear there will be job losses in the UK, many many companies have already stated that as fact. Care to link to the number who are going to move here or increase staffing?

 

[goatwack]

Just checked to see if Diane Abbott was among that list, but it seems she's still clinging on to her job with those racist claws of hers

She's also into allowing jihadist 'Dhamima Begum' back into Britain

Love that woman

 

[pinnit2014]

So which laws have we had to adopt that you, or anyone else, disagree with?

I doubt that many will change when (or if) they sit down to sift through it, retrospectively. Things like the WTD's, same rights for temporary works will all stay I imagine (though who knows).

Ones that potentially they may look at is free movement of labour?, Climate Change Directive due to the cost?

And to be honest for a lot of companies in the UK I imagine, if they're trading within the EU they'll still need to adhere to things like competition rules etc, anyhow.

Did the EU not pass something to do with not being able to eat your pet horse? -Maybe that could go - that'll be good news to Tesco.

 

[mack341]

Good job you never mentioned the shambolic N Irish one as an example of it being done well

Out of curiosity Mack - where do you see Nationalism going in the short/medium term? I (naively) would have presumed that as older generations passed out and with younger generations perhaps not quite feeling the whole ethos of being part of a Nation (more 'citizens of the world'), it would be on the decline? - but it's clear that some countries are having an upsurge in it in recent times.

It's a fascinating subject and with the popularity of the english language across the globe, one barrier which has always kept people apart is potentially removed. It seems to be the existence of the internet, or at least from say 2002 when most people have had it, has had some sort of diminishing effect on youngsters of the idea/concept of being a national citizen.

The upsurge of patriotism in recent years [not sure it is even patriotism, maybe more an interest in conserving traditions and a way of life] is interesting because a brit seeing say an italian or frenchman out demonstrating against external changes being forced upon them, will say 'good on you' and support them and want them to be able to preserve their traditions even though they're different to ours.

We've been brought up over the years to dislike other nations but actually we can all get along fine, travel and holiday in each others countries, its the politicians/governments and elites butting in that cause problems.

I think the the upsurge in national identity [or the sense and fear losing something unique] will gradually diminish with time due to technology and changing way of life, the youngsters born 50 years from now will see likely themselves as part of a global identity rather than from an individual nation.

The political changes are closely shadowing the commercial move in that direction, globalism...however its got many downsides and once its fully established, that's it there'll be no going back. In 200 years time people will just read about being english or french in history books...scary isn't it to think what will come after us, what legacy are we leaving for those to come, will they have the same freedoms we've enjoyed ?

 

[mack341]

So which laws have we had to adopt that you, or anyone else, disagree with?

well these copyright law changes coming in for one, the ability to have all bad news stories about oneself removed from the internet is another one, great for dodgy criminals etc..

edit: the above are off the top of my head, I would have to dedicate all my spare time to study journals etc.. to do a comprehensive list and that would leave no time to slot

 

[colinsunderland]

well these copyright law changes coming in for one, the ability to have all bad news stories about oneself removed from the internet is another one, great for dodgy criminals etc..

edit: the above are off the top of my head, I would have to dedicate all my spare time to study journals etc.. to do a comprehensive list and that would leave no time to slot

The removing data is under data protection rules, that the UK helped devise. The copyright changes, I'm not sure why you think people should be allowed to copy others' work, but fair enough.

 

[mack341]

The removing data is under data protection rules, that the UK helped devise. The copyright changes, I'm not sure why you think people should be allowed to copy others' work, but fair enough.

you said 'what I disagreed with' I can't help it if our govt is abunch of muppets and helped devise it, they certainly didn't put it in their manifesto that they wanted to bring that change in ?

I'm sure the copyright law changes are more complicated than just plagiarism or piracy otherwise it wouldn't be such a big issue, the meister mentioned it in one of his posts too, as its going to be a headache for everyone. what's with the 'fair enough' don't try and brandish me that way...

 

[colinsunderland]

you said 'what I disagreed with' I can't help it if our govt is abunch of muppets and helped devise it, they certainly didn't put it in their manifesto that they wanted to bring that change in ?

I'm sure the copyright law changes are more complicated than just plagiarism or piracy otherwise it wouldn't be such a big issue, the meister mentioned it in one of his posts too, as its going to be a headache for everyone.

Right but my point is, as our government agreed with it and helped create it, then chances are they would have brought the same or similar law in, regardless of if we were in the EU or not.
I'm not sure how to respond to the copyright part, if you don't understand the law, how can you disagree with it Put it this way, if will affect media outlets, media outlets are the ones spreading the outrage. No hidden agenda there then

 

[mack341]

so you want me to spend hours reading up about this proposed law? Will this law change improve people's lives or possibly the opposite?

If our govt intended to bring the 'right to be forgotten' law in, we could influence the outcome at the ballot box, lobby our mp's etc... no?

 

[pinnit2014]

Was a different story in the 80's when the Euro Parliament didn't have veto/amendment powers...maybe it'll just be that period that they'll change

 

[colinsunderland]

so you want me to spend hours reading up about this proposed law? Will this law change improve people's lives or possibly the opposite?

If our govt intended to bring the 'right to be forgotten' law in, we could influence the outcome at the ballot box, lobby our mp's etc... no?

Not at all, just I see people complaining all the time about being forced to accept EU laws, but whenever you ask which specific ones are so bad, and would have been unlikely to be implemented in some form if we weren't in the UK, you never get an answer.

The copyright law will likely improve the lives of the people having content stolen, not so much the ones who are doing the stealing.

 

[mack341]

Not at all, just I see people complaining all the time about being forced to accept EU laws, but whenever you ask which specific ones are so bad, and would have been unlikely to be implemented in some form if we weren't in the UK, you never get an answer.

The copyright law will likely improve the lives of the people having content stolen, not so much the ones who are doing the stealing.

partly that's down to time, the EU publish mounds of rules and regulations, its a lawyers paradise working for them, who's got the time to read it all. Then if you rely on articles/journalism to find things out, it's full of bias and omissions. As all the big firms and banks etc... are in favour of the EU, you will be hard pushed to find a fair digest/analysis of new proposed laws.

You would have to dedicate a large amount of time, whereas I'm happy to go with my gut feeling that politicians like this fella and the laws they want to bring in will be bad:

 

[ternur]

Taking that on a micro scale, why live in locked and closed houses? It's the innate human desire for comfort and security and existing amongst similar people they are familiar with. Whether that natural desire or need is supplanted by force or by weakness via bad decisions, the effects are fundamentally the same.

Because otherwise perpetual war of every man against his neighbour would lead to anarchy Mr. Hobbes.

Then again, one could also argue, that security is a form of psychological illusion or delusion which will (eventually) be shattered. Perhaps I view security more as something which people think they can have some control over. But I disagree it being a natural desire. More like a learnt one imo. I most certainly disagree that existing among similar people is a natural desire.

A wise man once said, that one can increase their knowledge by augmenting the evidence of the senses through reason.

 

[colinsunderland]

partly that's down to time, the EU publish mounds of rules and regulations, its a lawyers paradise working for them, who's got the time to read it all. Then if you rely on articles/journalism to find things out, it's full of bias and omissions. As all the big firms and banks etc... are in favour of the EU, you will be hard pushed to find a fair digest/analysis of new proposed laws.

You would have to dedicate a large amount of time, whereas I'm happy to go with my gut feeling that politicians like this fella and the laws they want to bring in will be bad:

Right but if someone says they hate the way the EU bring in stupid laws, and want to leave because of it, you would surely expect them to be able to quote at least one stupid law that they disagree with. Most say the bendy banana shite.

 

[mack341]

"A total of 52,741 laws have been introduced in the UK as a result of EU legislation since 1990, according to the Legal business of Thomson Reuters, the world’s leading source of intelligent information for businesses and professionals."

I'm sure some of the laws are sensible or needed, but doesn't the sheer number make you pause for thought, they must invented a rule for eveything!

I think the bent bananas and cucumbers was a way of highlighting some of the lunacy coming out of brussels, "The regulation states that bananas must be "free from malformation or abnormal curvature." why its just food, its natural, they've got too much time on their hands and wasting valuable money thinking up this nonsense, I wonder how many man hours went into consultations and drafting all these laws.

many people use to read and rely on tabloid newspapers for their information pre the internet, and the EU bent bananas rule was one of the stories they told their readers about, hence everyone's heard of it, so when questioned it comes to mind.

whether these food rules are still in place after all the ridicule I don't know

 

[colinsunderland]

"A total of 52,741 laws have been introduced in the UK as a result of EU legislation since 1990, according to the Legal business of Thomson Reuters, the world’s leading source of intelligent information for businesses and professionals."

I'm sure some of the laws are sensible or needed, but doesn't the sheer number make you pause for thought, they must invented a rule for eveything!

I think the bent bananas and cucumbers was a way of highlighting some of the lunacy coming out of brussels, "The regulation states that bananas must be "free from malformation or abnormal curvature." why its just food, its natural, they've got too much time on their hands and wasting valuable money thinking up this nonsense, I wonder how many man hours went into consultations and drafting all these laws.

many people use to read and rely on tabloid newspapers for their information pre the internet, and the EU bent bananas rule was one of the stories they told their readers about, hence everyone's heard of it, so when questioned it comes to mind.

whether these food rules are still in place after all the ridicule I don't know

theres a fairly good explanation here

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[mellody]

Me no like discussing politics here!! Way too serious, although I do understand it affects us all, so... these two links pretty much sum up my thoughts on the whole sorry brexit debacle. Just letting a bit of light in

 

[dunover]

Because otherwise perpetual war of every man against his neighbour would lead to anarchy Mr. Hobbes.

Then again, one could also argue, that security is a form of psychological illusion or delusion which will (eventually) be shattered. Perhaps I view security more as something which people think they can have some control over. But I disagree it being a natural desire. More like a learnt one imo. I most certainly disagree that existing among similar people is a natural desire.

A wise man once said, that one can increase their knowledge by augmenting the evidence of the senses through reason.

Alas Charles Darwin may disagree with you there. It's part of our instinct for survival and the alliances and actions we take to ensure it. Surely you can see that history bears this out? Take a look at these archaeological sites going back to the stone age and Iron Age as there's enough of them in the UK - these were all sited in closed, fenced defensive locations where the community could prosper and live without outside interference. I have seen stone age ones excavated in the Fens of Eastern England built on stilts in water and there's the Iron Age forts situated on top of hills with defensive ramparts. So regardless of politics, modern opinions and media commentators the proof as they say, is in the pudding sir.

 

[mac72]

Right but if someone says they hate the way the EU bring in stupid laws, and want to leave because of it, you would surely expect them to be able to quote at least one stupid law that they disagree with. Most say the bendy banana shite.

Don’t care which “stupid” ones shouldn’t have been implemented but I’ll be stuffed if I’ll pay 2 management teams to deal with it. We’ve paid for Westminster (people seem to forget they are in essence our employees) so why I or anyone else would need another tier of government just baffles me.
All this nonsense about trade agreements needing doctors from Pakistan etc etc what we will need we will negotiate and get and if we don’t/can’t that will simply be down to the fact our “team” sent to do it aren’t up to the job

 

[trancemonkey]

this is taken from a pro remain fact check website, as if politics was ever the realm of unadulterated truth, tons of which have sprung up:

"Not all EU decisions affecting the UK can be passed against its wishes. Some important issues can only be decided if every country voting agrees. [therefore some can]

These areas

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

foreign affairs, taxation, justice and the EU budget. If the UK is adamantly opposed to a law requiring unanimous approval, it's unlikely to make it as far as a vote.

But in other areas, majorities are enough. Under the new system for majority voting, a law has to pass two hurdles.

First,

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

member states have to vote for it. In special cases, it's

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

.

The UK naturally counts for only 1/28th from this point of view."


But I agree in probably many instances the uk government chooses not to use its veto, but is it any wonder when the establishment is obsessed with obeying the EU and downgrading our own democracy, people had to fight to get democracy in this country, before the reform acts only the wealthy and landowners got to vote, the common man has effectively had the right to vote for 100 years [1918] that's it, probably the same across most of europe.

The EU have decided to go down the federalist route, [a system of government in which several states unite under a central authority] which obviously diminishes the effect and role of democracy in the individual countries. Some people currently see membership of the EU as basically like a benelovent dictatorship, but what will they be able to do if the laws become less benelovent and by that time the EU army is well established and other things possibly police forces etc... obviously this is a dystopian view of it but it becomes possible once the individual democratic influence of people is diminished.

A return to the EEC would be great... the EU has just over reached.

 

[trancemonkey]

So which laws have we had to adopt that you, or anyone else, disagree with?

This is something I ask a lot of leavers... And they can rarely answer. Another is how has the EU negatively impacted your life? Most of the time they can't give a reasonable answer without quoting immigration (which by all measurable data doesn't have a negative impact... it's a positive impact).

I think it's worth pointing out here that I didn't vote for Brexit, nor do I want it. But if it is going to happen, the negotiation (or lack of) has been a farce and we just need to get on and do it, go through the huge self induced economic mess, and hopefully come out the other side better off.

 

[colinsunderland]

This is something I ask a lot of leavers... And they can rarely answer. Another is how has the EU negatively impacted your life? Most of the time they can't give a reasonable answer without quoting immigration (which by all measurable data doesn't have a negative impact... it's a positive impact).

Exactly, just look at the responses in this thread so far (apart from mack who actually argues quite well )

 

[goatwack]

I think with the benefit of hindsight and a Marty McFly time-machine I think quite a few Leavers would have mulled over their vote more intensely. The PR spin machine really did a number on a lot of 'normal, intelligent' folk.

Who knew the whole thing would be bungled so spectacularly, the twits

 

[mac72]

This is something I ask a lot of leavers... And they can rarely answer. Another is how has the EU negatively impacted your life? Most of the time they can't give a reasonable answer without quoting immigration (which by all measurable data doesn't have a negative impact... it's a positive impact).

Not sure where you live trance but many in sheffield/burton on trent/derby (just the ones i know well) might disagree with you. The argument seems to always come down to "sure they put in more than they take out" but thats not the whole picture, the UK simply does not have the infrastructure to deal with whats been going on regardless if there is even a "gross profit" something which i'm not sure of. What i am sure of is if i have a b+b with 10 rooms that charges £50 a night its no good having 100 guests even if their willing to pay £75 the place will still end up in a mess. Controlled immigration based on merit absolutely no issue with but a very strong caveat that those coming here accept our way of life and integrate. Try going to China,UAE etc etc and imposing your way of life on them and see how far you get

 

[mac72]

Exactly, just look at the responses in this thread so far (apart from mack who actually argues quite well )

Any laws you want from the Eu if your not in the EU you can just copy and should have a UK government in place to implement them. But how is there even an argument?? It costs us year in year out to be part of this, there is no such thing as EU money/grants its OUR money that we pay over and they decide how to give us back minus a fee for doing so.That to me is the argument anyone who wants to tell me what benefit that fee gets us (that we couldn't/shouldn't be able to negotiate/demand) without being part of this club please say.
Go watch the latest edition of "The grand tour" Clarkson summed it up perfectly when he looked at how much infrastructure the chinese have put in place over the last few years "we're fucked in the UK" was i believe the way he put it and i couldn't agree more. We've turned into a nation more interested in if we can reclaim our PPI than actually wanting to get off our asses and get on with the job expecting everything to just come to us and too blind to see how its all slipping away

 

[SpinUk]

This is something I ask a lot of leavers... And they can rarely answer. Another is how has the EU negatively impacted your life? Most of the time they can't give a reasonable answer without quoting immigration (which by all measurable data doesn't have a negative impact... it's a positive impact).

I think it's worth pointing out here that I didn't vote for Brexit, nor do I want it. But if it is going to happen, the negotiation (or lack of) has been a farce and we just need to get on and do it, go through the huge self induced economic mess, and hopefully come out the other side better off.

The main way that the EU has affected everyone in this country in the last ten years is the zero increase in wage inflation.

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This is directly because of the cheap low skilled labour that has come from the eastern block and the depressed Mediterranean countries with youth unemployment of upto 40% (Spain, Italy). Public services like teachers also hit very hard - average salary for a science teacher in Poland around £1000 a month. Average nurse salary £600 pm. The incentive to emigrate must be high for young people when you can treble your salary. And so it is. But not so good for the training and investment for the host country workforce, and certainly not an incentive for employers to keep wages to match inflation when someone will gladly work for much less.

That is why huge swathes of the northeast voted unanimously for Brexit as the trades were the most affected and for the same reason the elite in London voted to remain as they had the highly skilled/senior and technical jobs that were not affected by the influx, yet enjoy the cheap service labour that this type of immigration offers. Hence the bias/fatuous virtue signalling of people that work in these areas.

Its also why big business like banks and multi-nationals also love the EU, as their main outgoing on their balance sheet is the labour force, so anything drastically lowering that figure is fantastic for them. Not so good for us.

All of this disregarding the rife corruption that is present at all levels of the EU, common to all continental politics, and the barely disguised contempt it holds the UK since inception, despite us remaining a hugely net contributor.

 

[vorcirion]

I don't understand these nationalist feelings. Like EU would take your culture/identity away or something. Or replace your government with their own power structures We used to have some kind of movement going on against EU here in Finland too. Scaring people with all those laws EU passed. Sure there are probably some ridiculous sounding ones...but I don't think it really affects normal people in any way. At least I haven't noticed! And I haven't noticed any kind of effect to finnish identity from EU.
During the crisis in Greece there were plenty of negative voices against the EU. How our money would be thrown away etc. Not hearing any of that anymore. I like that we help the countries in the EU and vice versa. There's power in unity.

And sorry brittish people but I like the way EU is treating you. You voted to leave and I want the EU to remain strong. We need to have a good position in any kind of negotiations, whether it's trade deals or now brexit or whatever comes next.

 

[steveh35]

I don't understand these nationalist feelings. Like EU would take your culture/identity away or something. Or replace your government with their own power structures We used to have some kind of movement going on against EU here in Finland too. Scaring people with all those laws EU passed. Sure there are probably some ridiculous sounding ones...but I don't think it really affects normal people in any way. At least I haven't noticed! And I haven't noticed any kind of effect to finnish identity from EU.
During the crisis in Greece there were plenty of negative voices against the EU. How our money would be thrown away etc. Not hearing any of that anymore. I like that we help the countries in the EU and vice versa. There's power in unity.

And sorry brittish people but I like the way EU is treating you. You voted to leave and I want the EU to remain strong. We need to have a good position in any kind of negotiations, whether it's trade deals or now brexit or whatever comes next.

Good grief a totally brainwashed eu fanatic best of luck in your club enjoy the ride just don't ever try to leave they don't like it

 

[mac72]

I don't understand these nationalist feelings. Like EU would take your culture/identity away or something. Or replace your government with their own power structures We used to have some kind of movement going on against EU here in Finland too. Scaring people with all those laws EU passed. Sure there are probably some ridiculous sounding ones...but I don't think it really affects normal people in any way. At least I haven't noticed! And I haven't noticed any kind of effect to finnish identity from EU.
During the crisis in Greece there were plenty of negative voices against the EU. How our money would be thrown away etc. Not hearing any of that anymore. I like that we help the countries in the EU and vice versa. There's power in unity.

And sorry brittish people but I like the way EU is treating you. You voted to leave and I want the EU to remain strong. We need to have a good position in any kind of negotiations, whether it's trade deals or now brexit or whatever comes next.

I glad that your glad how we’re being treated but I suppose to be straight up about it you don’t have a dog in that fight.

 

[vorcirion]

Good grief a totally brainwashed eu fanatic best of luck in your club enjoy the ride just don't ever try to leave they don't like it

I will certainly enjoy the ride! Life's good <3

 

[steveh35]

I will certainly enjoy the ride! Life's good <3

Yes when u ruled by a bunch of unelected nobodies like juncker and co who only care about money. When theres a terror attack the eu beurocrats suddenly disappear and it is a country's problem remember how the eu fled Brussels when there was a terror attack. Bunch of unelected cowards.

 

[vorcirion]

Yes when u ruled by a bunch of unelected nobodies like juncker and co who only care about money. When theres a terror attack the eu beurocrats suddenly disappear and it is a country's problem remember how the eu fled Brussels when there was a terror attack. Bunch of unelected cowards.

We're ruled by our own government who we elected. We also elected our representatives to EU who I assume have finnish interests in their hearts.

 

[steveh35]

We're ruled by our own government who we elected. We also elected our representatives to EU who I assume have finnish interests in their hearts.

Your government is powerless if they dont follow the eu rules remember i think it was hungry were close to electing a right wing government and the eu said if you do we will remove your eu voting rights. They are a dangerous group who will do whatever it takes to keep control of 27 countries they use money bribes to keep the poor countries quiet while France and Germany rule the roost.

 

[vorcirion]

Your government is powerless if they dont follow the eu rules remember i think it was hungry were close to electing a right wing government and the eu said if you do we will remove your eu voting rights. They are a dangerous group who will do whatever it takes to keep control of 27 countries they use money bribes to keep the poor countries quiet while France and Germany rule the roost.

We have certain core values in EU. I don't think we'd want some kind of dictator undermining freedom of speech. Violating human rights etc. If you want to deal with immigration...you can do that without doing trumpian things. Democracy is one of those core values. Without it people don't have any kind of power. And Orban seems to go against democracy. It's not about right-wing or left-wing.

 

[steveh35]

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Yes your government certainly has full control as part of eu the eu would never do anything against a sovereign country because the people voted a certain way

 

[steveh35]

To get the thread back on topic an 8th labour mp has decided to join the boring snowflake party tonight with chukup and friends. Only a few hundred more needed to even have a chance of looking like some kind of political force.

 

[mack341]

scraping the barrel a bit with this lot, I think I saw a report that some conservatives were going to join it too, which will make it even odder, how are they going to get the necessary funding to run a party, donations I guess?

having seen macron win in france maybe they believe a similar feat will be possible here, I'm just waiting for them to announce their new leader, the one and only: 'anthony charles lynton blair '

 

[steveh35]

scraping the barrel a bit with this lot, I think I saw a report that some conservatives were going to join it too, which will make it even odder, how are they going to get the necessary funding to run a party, donations I guess?

having seen macron win in france maybe they believe a similar feat will be possible here, I'm just waiting for them to announce their new leader, the one and only: 'anthony charles lynton blair '

Thanks for frightening me with that scary picture before bed guaranteed nightmares now

 

[pinnit2014]

scraping the barrel a bit with this lot, I think I saw a report that some conservatives were going to join it too, which will make it even odder, how are they going to get the necessary funding to run a party, donations I guess?

having seen macron win in france maybe they believe a similar feat will be possible here, I'm just waiting for them to announce their new leader, the one and only: 'anthony charles lynton blair '

To be fair, every company needs a good 'ol sociopath to lead them to prosperous times.

On the plus side: could see D:Ream get back in the charts

 

[ternur]

Alas Charles Darwin may disagree with you there. It's part of our instinct for survival and the alliances and actions we take to ensure it. Surely you can see that history bears this out? Take a look at these archaeological sites going back to the stone age and Iron Age as there's enough of them in the UK - these were all sited in closed, fenced defensive locations where the community could prosper and live without outside interference. I have seen stone age ones excavated in the Fens of Eastern England built on stilts in water and there's the Iron Age forts situated on top of hills with defensive ramparts. So regardless of politics, modern opinions and media commentators the proof as they say, is in the pudding sir.

He probably would.

I must admit, I have no deep knowledge of Darwin's theories. Please correct me if I'm mistaken in saying the following.

Darwinian anthropology holds that human behavior is biological and adaptive in nature. Biological evolution of man as described by Darwin is seen as a fact by most these days.

But I share the view that (esp.) Darwin's theory of natural selection supports the understanding of the psychological issues relating to human behaviour, but does not really explain or prove them. On the contrary, the application of the consept of evolution to society (social darwinism) has been widely refuted.

Evolutionary psychology (or modern Darwinism) use the theory of natural selection to explain the dynamics of the human group. But evolutionary psychologists use too many ambiquous consepts to my liking.

Darwin's social and political views left a lot be desired. While his work in the biological field is more or less undisputable, I don't find it that useful beyond its original domain (of biological evolution).

Back to the point. You asserted that habitance, security and protection are natural desires or basic human instincts. I agree that they are, when we talk about the elements that pose a danger to them. But are they inherited traits like Darwin might suggest? Or just passed on based on learning and experience? I'm more prone to the later one.

But like you said, the end result or goal is pretty much the same here (safety against harm) irrespective of the original presumption.

On the topic of the thread (loosely). It's interesting to see how Brexit goes. I personally like the political discussions of the reasons behind it. But that's a luxury for someone looking at this situation from the outside. I hope all turns out well for both, Britain and EU.