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tennis_balls
colour me "silly" then because Brown is still a god in my eyes and the Knicks management just couldn't keep their hands out of the pot and let Brown work his magic.
I'll touch upon the "
colour me silly" part a bit later.
Brown was just as poisonous to the
KNICKS organization, as was Thomas and Dolan. Does that mean that Brown is a horrible coach. Nope, and as I've said many times before restating this, Brown is probably the most knowledgeable coach around.
REPEAT: Larry Brown is probably the most knowledgeable coach around. That doesn't mean that he's the best coach around, because he's absolutely horrible at dealing with his players. You may disagree, and that's fine. But he is. It's been well-documented. It's no secret.
Brown's problem - and he's got a few a them - is that HE can't keep his hands
out of the pot. He was hired to coach, not whine and complain, undermine the GM, make all of his players worse than before, be the drama queen that only he seems to do so well. He was paid to coach, and he rarely did that this past season. He lost his focus. He certainly lost his focus when he was the coach of the
PISTONS, in the Finals last year, pulling a Bill Parcells, trying to position himself to get the next job, when he had a perfectly great one that was in a perfect position to win it all. Larry Brown is not Pat Riley. Never was, never will be. Pat Riley is not stupid enough to pull stuff like that. That kind of stuff is entertainment to be sure, and stuff like that makes Brown seem more interesting, but at this time, he's absolutely no different than Terrell Owens. Again, I'm constantly entertained by Brown because he has something to say, but his intentions at this point are all wrong.
I think Brown is one of the best in terms of managing his players and their personalities. Do you think Iverson could ever have had so much success and have taken a team to the finals without Brown's influence early in his career?
Obviously, that's one of his greatest accomplishments as a coach. In fact, that was probably his peak as a coach. Many will say his work with the
PISTONS, but I think that specific year with the
SIXERS was his best job of coaching. I'm not sure that it was so early in his career though, his rookie campaign was back in '96. Brown is probably the only legitimate coach that Iverson has ever had. I don't think though, that there anything of a storybook situation happening in the Iverson/Brown era. They sometimes respected each other, and generally hated each other. Most people will point to Iverson being so difficult to coach (which I would agree with as well), but how many times did Brown go back and fourth on giving-up, on his wanting to get rid of Iverson, on his need to retire (that saga alone has been carried on for about 8-years already... when is he going to retire due to health concerns?
). Brown constantly needed to stroked. I'm thinking how many times did Pat Croche come down from the rafters to save the day, and play damage control. Apparently Billy King was the GM at the time - and still is - but it's been widely stated that Brown was pulling-the-strings about what his teams needed. Fair enough. But one Finals appearance over a stretch of several years - while impressive - doesn't tell the whole story either. Most of those years, the
SIXERS were hovering around .500. Hardly a great team. Competitive? Every other game... yes. Also, the year that the
SIXERS made it to the big show, who did they have to go through on their way to the Finals? Some pretty borderline-good teams at that.
I happen to think that Iverson is always competitive, and I'd never want him on my team. He needs the ball to much, and he'll shoot his teams in and out of games. Whle few noticed, as an all-around season, he's been at his best the past two years, and specifically his thus far has been this past season.
Brown on the other hand has that intangible Riley-esque presence that wills a team to victory.
I'll stop you right there. Brown has a presence. Agreed. But he's not Pat Riley. Not even Riley"esque". Pat Riley knows how to motivate his team... properly. He knows how to build team confidence. Pat Riley gets his players to execute, by the will to succeed. They're not equals. I'll never think of Riley in the light that he has to undermine in order to succeed. All players in the league would want to play for Riley. The same can't be said about any other coach... including Phil Jackson.
We'll never know what might have been, but I highly doubt the Pistons could have maintained the poise required to win a championship under Rick Carlysle.
I agree that we'll never know what could have been. Rick Carlysle is the one had originally gotten that team to buy into that competitive system. It was a shame that he was let go after taking that team to the Conference Finals. It's rumored that one of the reasons he was let go, was his not letting Tayshaun Prince play more than he did. Also, the
PISTONS had just drafted Darko Milicic and didn't want him to be in the same situation as Prince the year before. When Brown came on, how much did Milicic play? When Flip Saunders came on this year, how much did Milicic play? Go figure.
Carlysle did a pretty damn good job with that roster. Instead of having Rasheed, he got the most out of Clifford Robinson (who was a very effective help-defender at that time despite his advanced age). He also got some of Corliss Williamson's best production and grit, ditto Chucky Atkins, while helping Billups with his confidence by finally giving him a legitimate shot while netting increased minutes. Carlysle is a bigger part than he gets credit for. He also had this once inept team play with a purpose again. His
PISTON teams were the Central Division champions for 2 consecutive years while he was running the show. And they got farther into the players each year under him.
I also give Brown credit for getting Sheed to finally come correct and cut down on his on court melt-downs.
Hmmm... I study the numbers on a daily basis. I'm not a "math" guy, but I love sports statistics. I'm not sure how you're deciphering Sheed's numbers, but this is where you've managed to "
colour yourself silly".
2000-01 - 40 tech - 7 ejections - 1st in the NBA
2001-02 - 27 tech - 2 ejections - 1st in the NBA
2002-03 - 11 tech - 0 ejections - T-13th in the NBA
2003-04 - 18 tech - 1 ejection - 2nd in the NBA
2004-05 - 27 tech - 1 ejection - 1st in the NBA
2005-06 - 17 tech - 1 ejection - 1st in the NBA
Brown coached Sheed in parts of 2 seasons, those of which are highlighted in
red.
There's nothing in these statistics that indicates that Sheed finally "got it" and decided that good 'ol Larry B was right by that he shouldn't get so many darned technicals. Also note that Wallace played only part of the season with the
PISTONS, having played a game with the
HAWKS and the start of the season with the
TRAILBLAZERS in the '03-04 campaign.
I've said this before - so I apologize for repeating it - but Sheed has TONS of intangibles. He's awesome by his strength, his athleticism combined with his length, his ability to score down low whenever he wants (why doesn't he do that more
), and he probably plays the defense on that
PISTONS squad, even if Prince and Ben get more credit. Rasheed is there covering all of their mistakes. Ben Wallace without a great help-defender (like Sheed and Clifford Robinson), is
NOT a "
Defensive Player of the Year". What people don't realize, is that Rasheed is precisely the same player with the
PISTONS as he was with the
TRAILBLAZERS.
When he was with Portland, he was a consummate team player. He had to be, considering how many great players were on those teams of the late-90's/early '00s. He was the centerpiece. If there was one person who could match-up greatly and have a monster game against the likes of a Tim Duncan or a Kevin Garnett, it was and is Sheed. Both players have gone on record and stated that. He may always get tons of technicals, but the rest of his game is incredibly sound. Perfect team player.
I've always found that when Sheed does have his "on court melt-downs", he plays a better game. His best seasons have him being ejected left-right-and-center. The '02-03 campaign for Wallace, was probably his most difficult year. That's the year EVERYTHING bad was being written about that team. He put up good numbers that year, but rarely showed any passion in his final days with
PORTLAND.
In the end "
tennis_balls", we both agree that Larry Brown is a great coach. I love watching the guy, and listening to his complaints. In a nutshell, I get a kick out of him. He's a HOF coach, an
ABA All-Star, and one of the All-Time great cancers any organization could want. He'll tell you how he's turned every team around - which is true - but what he seems to overlook is that he seems to bolt all the time as well. With Brown, if there's pleasure, pain will soon come calling.
Steed
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), Jamal Crawford (the only player Larry Brown liked in the end... because he tried to buy into his system), and Steve Francis (the migraine who gives everyone a migraine).
