Joyland Casino: Problem withdrawal request

[thelawnet]

It says in the Rogue section that Joyland is in the Kahnawake licencing jurisdiction. This isn't right is it? I thought it was Antigua?

The Gunslinger

No it's not right. They don't have the Kahnawake logo on their site.

Joyland Gaming was an Antiguan licensee, then Kahnawake, but is now owned by Crown Solutions, licensed in Antigua.

 

[scrollock]

so it looks like the situation has finally closed without resolution in favour of the players but the deserved rouging of joyland.

i think those that played at joyland purely for the comp points and have recieved their deposits back should take the attitude of nothing ventured, nothing gained, ce se ra.

however my sympathy does goto those who either lost deposits or made big wins which have not been honoured, for it is through either of these 2 situations that joyland have made a profit from this whole episode.

plus also it must not be forgotten that there was extra deposits ellicited by joyland, which were subsequently lost by those who tried to take advantage of the comp points but lost and also those of players who played well beyond the WR for the sign up in pursuit of the comp points.

as joyland has kept deposits without honouring large wins, i believe joyland has been rightly rouged as they have turned this whole fiasco into a money spinning episode themselves.

maybe joyland can redeem themselves slightly if they are willing to donate the money they have made from this to the hurricane katrina appeal and CM responds by moving joyland to either the "not recommended" or "past issues" list as i believe joyland should not be allowed to profit from this whole episode as it will set dangerous precedent which i'm sure some casinos will be tempted to pursue themselves.

myself have not been affected through this debacle due to the fact i would not engage in any business with any playtech till they clean up their questionable business practices.

the things i find questionable are,

the choice of juristicition, choice of software, long reversible pending payment times which defeats the whole point of playing on the internet in the first place although we know this is done in the hope that you are weak willed and will lose your money back to them.

then we come to the payout itself, simple fact is that i rarely get ID and next time i am asked for it i will have to scan my documents again as they hopelessly out of date, yet these casinos will ALWAYS ask for ID in the vain hope that they might be able to refuse your cashout. this suggests to me that they are bad losers and given the opportunity would decline a cashout if problem occured without judging your case with reasonable fairness.

also we have the payout tricks, such as sending an email giving you the impression that your payout has been approved, yet when checking your neteller or whatever you find you havnt been paid. when the casino is then pressed on why you havnt been paid, they claim an email asking for ID was sent and you have failed to send in the ID. this is email is never sent by them!

we now have the whole process of sending in your ID where you are further stalled with a succession of excuses, such as we havnt recived it, you sent it to the wrong address, you need to rescan it as its not clear, the file is to large for them to recieve it (you then compress the file, which then allows them to go back to the scan isn't clear excuse).

eventually after a succession of phonecalls, emails and period of time they realise you are not going to forget or give up on your cashout they then begrudgingly give you your money.

although these casinos do keep to the their rules and will honour all cashouts (except this joyland case), the fact is they are run by crooks this should be self evident just from the choice of software and jurisdiction.

i think empire online should be asking themselves do they really want to be doing business with this group, afterall if they are willing to welch on a $1000 payout then what are the chances of them acting honourably in a deal worth $40 million ?

especially in light of the player stealing tactics they have employed which i have highlighted above, the possible massaging of their casino turnover figures through this joyland situation and the undeniable fact that are they are willing to change history (i.e. the deletion of transaction logs), so what are the odds of crown solutions handing over an honest set of books to allow empire online make an informed decision on wether to buy this set of casinos or not? it should be noted that all of this happened in the week after the 1st aug, i.e. when the deal was annouced, just another coincidence ?

i would like to let those who it concerns know, that if this deal is completed and the deal with sportingbet is then completed then i will be looking elsewhere to be placing my sportsbook wagers (i dont use the casino there). i do about 80% of my sportsbook betting with SB and the amout i gamble on sports makes what i spend on online casinos pale in to significance, but the simple fact is that the size of my sportswagers means that i need to conduct business with those who i can trust and i cannot trust those who are willing to have any involvement with this set up of casinos.

 

[Casinomeister]

A hearty thanks for you involvement in the matter Bryan. Out of curiosity, did Joyland/Playtech feed you a stream of bullshit, or did they basically just disregard your concerns?

I think they were up front with me and didn't give me a line of BS, we just have some differing opinions. Further, I was mostly critical about the way it was handled before I was involved.

The licensing info was merely the info they have listed on their website.

 

[jetset]

I'm not holding my breath, but if those companies involved in this dispute were smart they will have taken away the following from this dispute:

Joyland: Get some professional staff who know how to construct comp point, loyalty and promotions initiatives in a fair and competent manner - something that is patently and sadly lacking at present. Same thing applies to your communications with the customer which have been appalling in this issue. Integrity is something that you don't usually have to learn, so the shortcomings so evident in that department can only be redressed with new management imo.

Playtech: If you're going to introduce a genuine disputes channel for god's sake staff it with someone who knows what they're doing and is committed to it...and make sure the contact side actually works instead of being a dead line for days and even weeks. The idea is to mediate between the casino and the player - not act like a traffic cop and wave the customer back to the casino that has just rejected his or her complaint. Judging by the attitude and actions of Joyland management, there's a serious need for some licensor policing and discipline here too - you can't just sit on your hands and tell the player you agree with them but there's nothing you can do.

Jurisdictional authorities (Antigua?): You guys should be monitoring major boards like this one so you're ahead of the game. And you need to realise that you lose credibility if you do not take an active role in ensuring that the casinos licensed in your jurisdiction behave in an honest and efficient manner. And there needs to be more transparency and clarity in who owns what on your publicly open books.

Players: It looks like this is one that has to be reluctantly written down to bitter experience because this management is not going to do the right and expected thing, and it seems unlikely that either their provider or jurisdiction is interested in taking a stand either. Players have long memories, especially for rogues. They will be remembered.

 

[Jay]

maybe joyland can redeem themselves slightly if they are willing to donate the money they have made from this to the hurricane katrina appeal and CM responds by moving joyland to either the "not recommended" or "past issues" list as i believe joyland should not be allowed to profit from this whole episode as it will set dangerous precedent which i'm sure some casinos will be tempted to pursue themselves.

That would be a great precedent. You can steal my money, but as long as you claim to donate it to charity, you're off the hook. If I want my money to go to charity, I'LL choose the charity and I'LL donate it.

Playtech responded to my third email asking why they hadn't contacted me yet. They said Joyland was dealing with it and I'd be contacted by them within 24 hours. Any guesses whether or not that happened?

Playtech should be "not recommended" for having a fake complaints line.

 

[Casinomeister]

I'm not holding my breath, but if those companies involved in this dispute were smart they will have taken away the following from this dispute:

Joyland: Get some professional staff who know how to construct comp point, loyalty and promotions initiatives in a fair and competent manner - something that is patently and sadly lacking at present. Same thing applies to your communications with the customer which have been appalling in this issue. Integrity is something that you don't usually have to learn, so the shortcomings so evident in that department can only be redressed with new management imo.

Playtech: If you're going to introduce a genuine disputes channel for god's sake staff it with someone who knows what they're doing and is committed to it...and make sure the contact side actually works instead of being a dead line for days and even weeks. The idea is to mediate between the casino and the player - not act like a traffic cop and wave the customer back to the casino that has just rejected his or her complaint. Judging by the attitude and actions of Joyland management, there's a serious need for some licensor policing and discipline here too - you can't just sit on your hands and tell the player you agree with them but there's nothing you can do.

Jurisdictional authorities (Antigua?): You guys should be monitoring major boards like this one so you're ahead of the game. And you need to realise that you lose credibility if you do not take an active role in ensuring that the casinos licensed in your jurisdiction behave in an honest and efficient manner. And there needs to be more transparency and clarity in who owns what on your publicly open books.

Players: It looks like this is one that has to be reluctantly written down to bitter experience because this management is not going to do the right and expected thing, and it seems unlikely that either their provider or jurisdiction is interested in taking a stand either. Players have long memories, especially for rogues. They will be remembered.

Excellent post Jetset. Believe me, this will be brought up in Vegas since I am scheduled to meet with several key people next week.

And here is my "two cents".

For operators:

Do not lie or skirt the truth:. You will be caught out and busted. Never forget that reputation is everything. The ball is in your court 95% of the time, it's up to you on how you want to deal with this.

If you make a mistake in public - admit it in public. If you want to BS your way out of a bad situation, you should be willing to suffer the consequences; this industry revolves around truthfulness and fairness. And not all of your players are post-teen college students playing with daddy's money who are meant to be jerked around. Some of the players here are University professors, Artisans, Engineers, and successful businessmen and women - and they are watching you.

Admitting one's mistakes is an honorable thing, and I tried to explain this. But perhaps there are cultural differences or other reasons that prevented the casino to see the logic behind this.

It's going to take a lot of effort on Playtech's part to move on. They have lost a lot of face with the players with this casino episode.

 

[Casinomeister]

Oh, and I almost forgot.

Players:

If you play with fire, you're gonna get burnt. If you intend to hammer the hell out of a casino, watch who you are dealing with.

 

[thelawnet]

The licensing info was merely the info they have listed on their website.

I see that, quite interesting

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Joyland Casino is owned and operated by Crown Solution Gaming Ltd.,
a registered company located in Antigua.

Joyland Casino operates under the License granted by the gaming commission of Kahnawake, and is pursuant to the provisions of the Kahnawake Gaming Law.

Joyland is NOT listed on

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

which clearly states that it lists ALL licensed casinos.

Interestingly from the Kahnawake regulations

The Regulations are designed to ensure that all interactive gaming and gaming related activities conducted within or from the Mohawk Territory of Kahnawake satisfies three basic principles:

That only suitable persons and entities are permitted to operate within Kahnawake;
That the games offered are fair to the player; and
That winners are paid.


...

To ensure that any player who has concerns about gaming irregularities has easy access to the Commission, permit holders are required to prominently display on their sites the Commissions logo (below), hyperlinked to the Commissions Web site.

This is not the case.

They are not a Kahnawake casino.

I am not sure why they have this there

According to archive.org, from June 2004

Joyland Casino is run by Joyland Gaming Inc., a registered company located in Antigua and Barbuda.
Joyland Casino operates under the Game License granted by the government of Antigua and Barbuda(License No. 00002058), and is regulated by state laws, under the supervision of the Directorate of Offshore Gaming.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

states

Joyland Gaming Inc.

License Type Virtual Casino

Originally Licensed Wednesday, March 19, 2003

License Expires Thursday, March 18, 2004

Website www.joylandonline.com

Email lawrhudd@candw.ag

Status Closed

According to

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

(old page)

Joyland Casino is run by Joyland Gaming Inc. ,a registered company located in in Kahnawake.
Joyland Casino operates under the Game License granted by the government of in Kahnawake, and is regulated by state laws, under the supervision of the Directorate of Offshore Gaming.

So Joyland Gaming moved from Antigua to Canada.

They were then bought by Crown Solutions, who hold an Antiguan Gaming licence. Outdated URL (Invalid) - which states that their site is 'clubdicecasino.com'

I am not sure why their website was not updated to reflect the licensing of their new owners.

 

[thelawnet]

Jurisdictional authorities (Antigua?): You guys should be monitoring major boards like this one so you're ahead of the game. And you need to realise that you lose credibility if you do not take an active role in ensuring that the casinos licensed in your jurisdiction behave in an honest and efficient manner. And there needs to be more transparency and clarity in who owns what on your publicly open books.

Considering that Antigua doesn't even appear to answer player enquiries (did anyone get a response), it demonstrates what a joke their claims are.


They are a tiny island of 108 square miles and gaming is very important to them. They have been paying high-powered lawyers to engage with the WTO in their fight against USA.

So why then are they demonstrating that they are no better than Costa Rica, and providing US gambling opponents with ammunition they need to attack online gambling.

Short sighted, very poor.

 

[hapaboii]

That would be a great precedent. You can steal my money, but as long as you claim to donate it to charity, you're off the hook. If I want my money to go to charity, I'LL choose the charity and I'LL donate it.

Playtech responded to my third email asking why they hadn't contacted me yet. They said Joyland was dealing with it and I'd be contacted by them within 24 hours. Any guesses whether or not that happened?

Playtech should be "not recommended" for having a fake complaints line.

Agreed. Playtech software really should be put into "not recommended." And any casino related to Joyland should be rogued.

I've played at several playtech casinos and put up with all their BS antics because often times they offered generous offers and for the most part had a reputation for fair payment. After this incident, I won't be playing at playtechs anymore. I urge everyone else to avoid playtech casinos, even those of us(like myself) who get enticed by bonuses. What good is a generous sign up offer if the casino just plans to seize any winnings and the software provider dismisses your complaints?

Playtech had a bad reputation before the Joyland incident. Looks like they've hit rock bottom. I do hope more prospective online players are informed about Playtech before they give them business. Ideally, we need a thread like this to be one of the top hits when someone googles "playtech." As Gunslinger pointed out earlier, it is already a top hit when searching "joyland casino." I'm not sure how isolated this incident will be or if it will get the publicity that it needs.

 

[Johnny Empire]

Dispute Resolved

I have resolved this dispute with Joyland Casino to my satisfaction and I'm happy to continue playing on Joyland Casino.

 

[Jay]

I have resolved this dispute with Joyland Casino to my satisfaction and I'm happy to continue playing on Joyland Casino.

... Unfortunately, since that time they've gone on the "Evil Casinos" list here, so I've now changed my mind based solely on this new info

Just curious whether the people who are obviously being required to say that they're "happy to continue playing on Joyland Casino" have actually gone back and continued playing.

 

[nafanny29]

Just curious whether the people who are obviously being required to say that they're "happy to continue playing on Joyland Casino" have actually gone back and continued playing.

My guess would be no way in a million years!!. Always brings a smile to my face when I read those posts

 

[GrandMaster]

Excellent post Jetset. Believe me, this will be brought up in Vegas since I am scheduled to meet with several key people next week.

And here is my "two cents".

For operators:

Do not lie or skirt the truth:. You will be caught out and busted. Never forget that reputation is everything. The ball is in your court 95% of the time, it's up to you on how you want to deal with this.

If you make a mistake in public - admit it in public. If you want to BS your way out of a bad situation, you should be willing to suffer the consequences; this industry revolves around truthfulness and fairness. And not all of your players are post-teen college students playing with daddy's money who are meant to be jerked around. Some of the players here are University professors, Artisans, Engineers, and successful businessmen and women - and they are watching you.

Admitting one's mistakes is an honorable thing, and I tried to explain this. But perhaps there are cultural differences or other reasons that prevented the casino to see the logic behind this.

It's going to take a lot of effort on Playtech's part to move on. They have lost a lot of face with the players with this casino episode.

I would add one more thing: refunding the winners' deposits and keeping the losers' money is theft and is unacceptable.

... Unfortunately, since that time they've gone on the "Evil Casinos" list here, so I've now changed my mind based solely on this new info

Just curious whether the people who are obviously being required to say that they're "happy to continue playing on Joyland Casino" have actually gone back and continued playing.

There was somebody who was forced to publish an even more grovelling apology by Connect To Casino in order to get paid.

 

[jetset]

My guess would be no way in a million years!!. Always brings a smile to my face when I read those posts

Same here - it's yet another indication of how irretrievably dumbass this Joyland management is!

 

[ElDuderino]

Here's my plan:

1) See if Bryan learns anything from Joyland/Crown at the CAC in Vegas this weekend.

2) Correspond one more time with Joyland/Playtech and see if I can get a reasonable settlement.

3) Unleash the fury to Empire, and let them know what kind of operation they're buying. I generate $100,000 of rake a year at Empire. If they buy Joyland and operate it, I will go to another Party skin.

 

[uscblackjack]

Agreed. Playtech software really should be put into "not recommended." And any casino related to Joyland should be rogued.

I really agree with the above. If the oversight isn't there, then trust is already partly gone. How can players really be expected to trust a no name with no oversight?

Playtech really should step in and make things right. No way paying late is ok, and this is not paying at all.

Poker sites pays winnings in like 2 hours, and a lot of these casinos take weeks. That is bs, too.

USCBlackjack

 

[ElDuderino]

I really agree with the above. If the oversight isn't there, then trust is already partly gone. How can players really be expected to trust a no name with no oversight?

Playtech really should step in and make things right. No way paying late is ok, and this is not paying at all.

Poker sites pays winnings in like 2 hours, and a lot of these casinos take weeks. That is bs, too.

USCBlackjack

I agree. There is empirical evidence (physical address, e-mail sent from Club Dice accidentally) that JOyland is related to the others... they should all be rogued. If not, then why was I bonus banned at Monaco Gold?

 

[The Gunslinger]

I agree. There is empirical evidence (physical address, e-mail sent from Club Dice accidentally) that JOyland is related to the others... they should all be rogued. If not, then why was I bonus banned at Monaco Gold?

I tend to agree too. I think it's important to send a hard line message to casinos who work themselves into this situation. Of course this kind of decision is all up to the meister, and perhaps he has a good reason for not roguing the whole group. Who know, I'd be interested to hear it though.

The Gunslinger

 

[ElDuderino]

Joyland, Enron, same thing:

A city boy, Kenny, moved to the country and bought a donkey from an old farmer for $100.00. The farmer agreed to deliver the donkey the next day. The next day the farmer drove up and said, "Sorry son, but I have some bad news, the donkey died."

Kenny replied, "Well then, just give me my money back."

The farmer said, "Can't do that. I went and spent it already."

Kenny said, "OK then, just unload the donkey."

The farmer asked, "What ya gonna do with him?"

Kenny: "I'm going to raffle him off."

Farmer: "You can't raffle off a dead donkey!"

Kenny: "Sure I can. Watch me. I just won't tell anybody he is dead."

A month later the farmer met up with Kenny and asked, "What happened with that dead donkey?"

Kenny replied, "I raffled him off. I sold 500 tickets at two dollars a piece and made a profit of $898.00."

Farmer: "Didn't anyone complain?"

Kenny: "Just the guy who won. So I gave him his two dollars back."

Kenny grew up and eventually became the chairman of Enron...

 

[ElDuderino]

Has anyone got a SATISFACTORY settlement from these guys, or are they only offering the $500 they originally offered? I'm in touch with them and giving them one more chance before I let Empire Online know what they're getting into by acquiring Crown Solutions...

 

[jon593]

Has anyone got a SATISFACTORY settlement from these guys, or are they only offering the $500 they originally offered? I'm in touch with them and giving them one more chance before I let Empire Online know what they're getting into by acquiring Crown Solutions...

i got all my winnings minus comps

 

[ElDuderino]

Hmm... you still should be entitled to *some* comps, no? Did they decide their rate was too much and they should give everyone zero comps? Oh well, if they don't take the initiative and bargain with me soon, I'm spilling this whole damn thing to every ear at the iPoker network and Empire that I can find. I will also discourage my high MGR friends from playing at Empire. Hell, I generated $800 in rake each of the last two days, I'll just take it back to Eurobet. Hahaha.

 

[tal23]

I still haven't gotten an offer,
or any response at all since they
emptied my account.

 

[Jay]

No reply of any kind from Joyland, and no reply from Playtech's fake complaint resolution system (other than a week ago saying that they'd referred the problem once again (with apologies) to Joyland's management, and Joyland would be responding within 24 hours.. Great system.. When you have a problem with casino management, they just forward the issue back to the crooks to "resolve", and then ignore the whole thing).

With all due respect, I don't understand why in most cases, the "evil casinos" list includes the siblings of casinos that rip people off, but here, where a huge number of people have been ripped off, the group gets a free ride -- according to Joyland's own website, they're owned by the same folks as Carnival and ClubDice and USA. And Playtech's resolution system is obviously a sham... they're up to three rogue licensees and counting...