is this fraud?

gaydave

Banned User - complete PITA
If me and about 10 friends all were to join a casino this month and all took a signup bonus but did not take bonuses after that and all played video poker and all played at different times/days then would this be fraud?
 

Cleveland

Meister Member
If me and about 10 friends all were to join a casino this month and all took a signup bonus but did not take bonuses after that and all played video poker and all played at different times/days then would this be fraud?
It's pretty clear that 11 different players all signing up legally at a casino, from different computers/homes wouldn't be fraud. I suspect your question is hinting at something else or baiting. I'm kind of curious to see where this thread is about to go. :eat:
 

rockycatt

meistercatt
why not just use the casino's refer a friend and get a finders fee or get comped and all is above board

:confused:
 

LaHutti

Sr. ÜberUnter Ass. Man.
PABaccred
PABnonaccred
webby
Well if you and your friends are actually 11 individuals, signing up from your own homes, and your own computers, I see no fraud, but 11 people, that happen to know each other signing up to a casino, and playing vp. However, if just 2 of you sign up from the same IP or computer (Mac addy) there might very well be a problem.
But the way you ask, and the fact that you find it needed to be asked, tells me, there is more to it, than you're telling, so ...pass the popcorn Cleve ;)
 

Cleveland

Meister Member
...pass the popcorn Cleve ;)
/passes popcorn


I need some good food similes. I searched for a popcorn passing one but that's the best I could find :D.
 

cpdnd31

Ueber Meister
webmeister
CAG
AWSDT7 GYIJP][;.|

As my father use to say "If you have to ask- Then something wrong". I'll take my popcorn with extra butter please!
 

Silencio

Dormant account
Sounds like a lot of fun though. Make it a competition: Who can cash out most
If so count me in :D
 

Cleveland

Meister Member
As my father use to say "If you have to ask- Then something wrong". I'll take my popcorn with extra butter please!
Here ya go.


That will be an additional $5.00 charge for the extra butter.
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Maybe not fraud, but probably collusion. It all depends on the circumstances.

Why not play it safe and ask the casino beforehand?
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
CAG
MM
11 new players signing up all at once, and all playing the same game, whether or not simultaneously, is going to get their attention. If there is evidence of shared computers, they will call this fraud. Even if each player uses their own PC, the casino will also stipulate that the play must be for "personal entertainment", and may consider this to be a "ring" of players colluding and sharing funds. Even though not fraud, it will contravene the terms and conditions for play in a "personal capacity".

If you try to "hide" this arrangement, and the casino figures it out, they will also consider that you "tried something on" with them. The best way is to be open about it, such as using any "refer a friend" promotion, or asking beforehand whether it is OK to open an account after having the casino recommended to you by your friend.

ONLY playing the SUB will also look suspicious, as it will look like collusion with the profits being shared. Normally, 11 signups will lead to different patterns, such as different gameplay, and some players coming back for more.
 

gaydave

Banned User - complete PITA
Right, you all bring up good points. I am just looking for some definitions of fraud without stirring up a bunch of BS and arguements. I have no interest in an ugly thread and I am not involved in anything like this as I have not played online in a few months due to being American.

It was mentioned that the scenario I laid out could be collusion. How so? I can understand it if all were to only use a SUB then disappear with profits while playing the exact same way but if there are multiple deposits and everyone is playing without bonuses and such I just cannot see how anything is wrong. If you all paid with your own accounts (eco card/neteller/QT/moneybooker/payspark/cc/wire....etc) and use your own computer from your own home then how is anything collusion or fraud? That is what I don't understand but that has come up a few times (seemingly) here. If a casino claims fraud ring in this scenario then I am confused and would like to know how anyone can think it is fraud.

This is all assuming that the players can send in supporting documents and used their own PC from their own home and nothing is shared AND bonuses were not used exclusively on the deposits.

What is the fraud? What is the collusion? There cannot be a benefit to the players or an advantage to the players if this is the scenario. The casino is not getting cheated. Correct?
 

Cleveland

Meister Member
Even if each player uses their own PC, the casino will also stipulate that the play must be for "personal entertainment", and may consider this to be a "ring" of players colluding and sharing funds. Even though not fraud, it will contravene the terms and conditions for play in a "personal capacity".

If you try to "hide" this arrangement, and the casino figures it out, they will also consider that you "tried something on" with them.
In that given scenario I would have to say the casino would be out right wrong. In my mind it is no different than a group of friends/family traveling to a land based casino to have a good time. If they are using their own computers, from their own home, with their own money, and not even taking a bonus then I can't see how or why this would present any problems. Unless the casino is being dishonest and trying to get out of paying a player.

Even sharing funds. How could that be a problem? If someone gives me 10 dollars because I'm short on funds, that doesn't change my odds of winning. Yes I will have a few more chances, as I wouldn't have been able to continue playing but nothing is wrong/illegal with that.
 

luarod

Experienced Member
I agree with Cleveland. If players act the same way as if they didn't know each other, there is no fraud in it.
 

chayton

aka LooHoo
webmeister
PABnonaccred
CAG
I've wondered about that too - I understand that one table games or multiplayer games there's a benefit, but with slot games and VP if the games are truly random, then no matter who you're 'colluding' with, there shouldn't be any advantage.
 

Mousey

Ueber Meister Mouse
There are still online casinos out there that allow VP on a SUB?

Whether right or wrong, if the casino spots a dozen sign ups from the same general geographical area (even if not same house) through the same link (like a bonus hunting board) there might be problems if more than one of the players makes a withdrawal.

As the OP lays out the scenario, I see no fraud. But that doesn't mean suspicions wouldn't surface.

Best advice has been given already. Contact the casino. Even take advantage of any referal bonuses....
 

Jasminebed

Grumpy old gal
If there's a VP progressive you and your friends are going to try to chase because it's currently EV+, you may very well find yourselves branded as a syndicate or in collusion. While this is not fraud in a criminal sense, it might just see you with a battle on your hands to claim winnings. Especially if your play is identical, or very strongly similar. If, for instance, you play a strategy to increase your chance of a Royal and deviate from what autohold suggests.

I'd go with an earlier suggestion to use the Refer-a-friend bonuses, that way they can't claim you were hiding your association with your friends. I'd wait until I had a win and a withdrawal first, then contact CS to tell them your friends now want to play.
 

IanO

Regular Human
A bunch of friends signing up from the same area at the same time and playing similar games might not technically constitute fraud, but as people have rightly pointed out it would certainly get the casinos atention. At the very least, you should expect every player linked to need to provide docs and pass a full audit.

The best advice has already been given... clear it with the casino in question first. :)
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
CAG
MM
In that given scenario I would have to say the casino would be out right wrong. In my mind it is no different than a group of friends/family traveling to a land based casino to have a good time. If they are using their own computers, from their own home, with their own money, and not even taking a bonus then I can't see how or why this would present any problems. Unless the casino is being dishonest and trying to get out of paying a player.

Even sharing funds. How could that be a problem? If someone gives me 10 dollars because I'm short on funds, that doesn't change my odds of winning. Yes I will have a few more chances, as I wouldn't have been able to continue playing but nothing is wrong/illegal with that.
Casinos look for peer to peer passing of funds in eWallets such as Neteller and Moneybookers, and if this is found alongside advantage play, will consider this a "syndicate". eWallets freely share this information with casinos, it has come up in the past. No-one really knows at what level such transfers between friends constitutes a "syndicate", but winnings have been voided on the strength of a group of players taking bonuses and using P2P to move funds between them in an eWallet.
 
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