Irresponsible streamers & affiliates?

[Kroffe]

It’s good to see Paul comment, top man props.
If people streaming where willing to be open and speak like he does then it would make a difference.
Would also be superb to see what his comments are about the other lot, unless it’s the usual ‘ we don’t talk about other streamers ‘
Which I doubt as this guy was always decent, as you all know on here my feelings about streaming and certain streamers I’ve never bad mouthed Paul.
Not here to make some inflammatory thread or use this as a agenda to slate others.
But you got a decent guy whom streams, it would be a pleasure if he would actually be active and maybe address some concerns.

If im not mistaken, Rolla has actually "outed" one or two other streamers that he thought for sure was using fake money.
You will have to look for yourself since its been a while since i saw the videos and may remember things wrong.

I think this video was part of it tho.

 

[Kroffe]

I don't watch many twitch streams anymore but used to sit and watch Paul (Rocknrolla) stream occasionally. Of all the streamers he seems like a decent guy and has never really plugged any affiliate links. He likes gambling and fair fucks to him

I also like gambling and fair fucks.
But not to him, to me.

 

[LoopsterAU]

First of all, it is possible to win the same way as these streamers. When going reckless for short duration's I have won huge amounts of money too however I have also gone on insane losing sprees leaving me in a hole for a while so doing it to their extreme is in no way sustainable over the long term.

In saying that since I work in IT I will give a technical explanation of how easily a streamer and a corrupt casino would be able to work together to make it appear completely legitimate on stream whilst being completely fake.

On every single Windows machine exists a file c:\Windows\system32\drivers\etc\hosts

Lets say a website is www whatevercasino com (have taken . out because I am not spamming anything but using it as an example).

Now lets say 202.30.117.156 is the normal IP address that www whatever casino resolves to.

Lets say 202.30.117.160 is a fake server with exactly the same design but made specifically for streamers.

I can add the following entry to the hosts file.

202.30.117.160 www whatevercasino com

Once again I left . out but you get my example.

Once this is in place if I visit www whatevercasino com in a web browser it would appear as I am going to the real website but in reality I would be hitting the fake streamer server.

 

[Kroffe]

First of all, it is possible to win the same way as these streamers. When going reckless for short duration's I have won huge amounts of money too however I have also gone on insane losing sprees leaving me in a hole for a while so doing it to their extreme is in no way sustainable over the long term.

In saying that since I work in IT I will give a technical explanation of how easily a streamer and a corrupt casino would be able to work together to make it appear completely legitimate on stream whilst being completely fake.

On every single Windows machine exists a file c:\Windows\system32\drivers\etc\hosts

Lets say a website is www whatevercasino com (have taken . out because I am not spamming anything but using it as an example).

Now lets say 202.30.117.156 is the normal IP address that www whatever casino resolves to.

Lets say 202.30.117.160 is a fake server with exactly the same design but made specifically for streamers.

I can add the following entry to the hosts file.

202.30.117.160 www whatevercasino com

Once again I left . out but you get my example.

Once this is in place if I visit www whatevercasino com in a web browser it would appear as I am going to the real website but in reality I would be hitting the fake streamer server.

What would be the point tho?
Much easier just to use funded accounts, or endless deposit-bonuses to make the streaming sustainable.
Ive seen some of the bonuses some of the streamers get, and they sometimes go as high as 500%
Usually with a max cash-out tacked on, wich would explain why the reactions for those megawins looks so fake. I mean, whats the point in winning 1000x on a €20 spin if your max cashout is 5 x your deposit or something like that.
They need acting classes.

 

[Kroffe]

The bandit who usually posts one video per week, if even that, has gone on a corona-marathon with his videos it seems.
Think its 4 or 5 days in a row now.
Weird, innit?


Anyway, i wish him the best of luck for the next award ceremony.

 

[Mr_Slot5]

What would be the point tho?
Much easier just to use funded accounts, or endless deposit-bonuses to make the streaming sustainable.
Ive seen some of the bonuses some of the streamers get, and they sometimes go as high as 500%
Usually with a max cash-out tacked on, wich would explain why the reactions for those megawins looks so fake. I mean, whats the point in winning 1000x on a €20 spin if your max cashout is 5 x your deposit or something like that.
They need acting classes.

The point to running 'demo' versions of slots with more generous maths models is obvious-

More wins, bigger hits and thus more people tempted to sign up. Not much fun for the viewer nor incentive to sign up if you hit a 1 month cold streak (like us mere mortals often do).

'But they do lose' I hear people say. Well yes, even with a 101% RTP, the variance of the slots that are played would ensure there would still be losing streaks, but overall the impression to the viewer would be one of winning (which is what any casino would want in order to sell their 'product')

 

[Kroffe]

The point to running 'demo' versions of slots with more generous maths models is obvious-

More wins, bigger hits and thus more people tempted to sign up. Not much fun for the viewer nor incentive to sign up if you hit a 1 month cold streak (like us mere mortals often do).

True.
But would they be able to keep that kind of stuff hidden?
Theres zero risk involved with funded accounts & generous deposit bonuses.
Running versions of the slots that play better would involve alot of people, and im guessing it wouldnt be legal.

 

[Mr_Slot5]

True.
But would they be able to keep that kind of stuff hidden?
Theres zero risk involved with funded accounts & generous deposit bonuses.
Running versions of the slots that play better would involve alot of people, and im guessing it wouldnt be legal.

In my opinion, you just have to watch some streams for a matter of about 10 minutes to realise some streamers are not playing the same version of the game that we are.

It's my opinion, that's all it is. But to me it's fairly obvious.

 

[Kroffe]

In my opinion, you just have to watch some streams for a matter of about 10 minutes to realise some streamers are not playing the same version of the game that we are.

It's my opinion, that's all it is. But to me it's fairly obvious.

I cant really comment on that since its been a long time since i watched any streams.
I just think the risk would be too big for the casino&provider for it to be worth it.
But like i said, my opinion is only based on that, not from watching streams.

 

[Mr_Slot5]

Running versions of the slots that play better would involve alot of people, and im guessing it wouldnt be legal.

Not really. We've all seen how easy it is to knock up stupidly generous paying games for demo versions on dodgy providers...those demo versions that you play where you start with $100 and end up with $1,000,000 and bonus after bonus.

Yes enhanced versions of slots are banned for demo purposes to the general public but of course they will exist in house behind the scenes. RTP is completely customisable at the provider end (as we see with the likes of PNG and Red Tiger offering different RTP versions to casinos).

As far as I'm aware there is no law to prevent an affiliate playing an enhanced RTP version of a game and streaming it...

 

[interlog]

Not really. We've all seen how easy it is to knock up stupidly generous paying games for demo versions on dodgy providers...those demo versions that you play where you start with $100 and end up with $1,000,000 and bonus after bonus.

Yes enhanced versions of slots are banned for demo purposes to the general public but of course they will exist in house behind the scenes. RTP is completely customisable at the provider end (as we see with the likes of PNG and Red Tiger offering different RTP versions to casinos).

As far as I'm aware there is no law to prevent an affiliate playing an enhanced RTP version of a game and streaming it...

It would be against Advertising Standards for the UK market for a starters.

 

[brianmon]

It would be against Advertising Standards for the UK market for a starters.

How could the ASA prove anything though?

 

[Mr_Slot5]

How could the ASA prove anything though?

That plus there are technicalities to be used as work arounds.

 

[dunover]

We hade the GameArt bent demo slots scandal here a while ago. And I am telling you that recently I reviewed Joker Megaways via Relax Gaming and found that using the feature buy I couldn't lose on it, twice I raised 1k to over 12k. May be 'lucky' but it certainly didn't feel like it...I doubled the bet each time I won a few hundred x.
That said, if streamers were using bent games then they would be identifiable by having a different server url code to that of those the plebs like us play.

As for the ASA if there's no direct sign-up link to the casino in question, rather a streamer just happens to be playing there, then I'm not sure it would be legally wrong, if ethically wrong.

 

[DreamRJ]

I started watching some twitch streamers again the last week.......

Something I have noticed is CasinoDaddy who is actually a company and has many streamers who stream for them are running promotions and have tonnes of affiliate sites for Curacao Licensed casinos?!

I mean why the damn hell are they promoting such casinos? I was actually enjoying watching them stream, but when I started to see this on their website and the new giveaway they are running atm which is for vulcinovegas casino which is licensed in Curacao, it has now made me cringe at even watching them stream........

I really do think twitch for slots have totally changed now since when I used to stream on twitch. So many now are basically companies who stream with multiple streamers in that 1 company and they then stream for 12+hours every day....... 1 is 24/7 streams.......... I mean this just is not something I think is good........ I then mentioned this in CasinoDaddy chat and I got attacked for attacking CasinoCaddy for promoting Curacao casinos hahaha........ They obviously are just clueless people who have got no god damn idea..........

Sorry just had to rant about this, thought this thread was fitting when I did a search looking for a thread instead of making a new thread about it..........

 

[Bloatgoat]

Streamers dont stream to not make money out of it. There's your rule of thumb. There's always a catch. Some of 'm are honest. Some of 'm are not. Some of 'm prefer talking about the way it works (like Bandit), some would kick you out of their channel already before you where typing it. Most of 'm you can consider entertaining, but that's about it. There's no real winning streamer as nobody would really expose an ongoing succes with gambling really. It would be a matter of time before any casino hammers that down (as usual).

Before streaming started, it was all about affiliate links, posts and all that. Now with streaming you got a far bigger exposure then ever. Twitch, youtube, IG, Facebook, etc. All with the message LOOK HOW EASY YOU CAN WIN stuff. Just deposit and BOOM win like your favorite streamer. We all know the harsh reality and that streamers can get up to 40 to 60% of your deposit loss. So in technical speaking a 100 deposit lost means 40 to 60 for the streamer. Multiply that by 100 your looking at 4000 to 6000 and take the big streamers that could run into thousands of affiliates and your looking at a jackpot.

Most streamers have their deposits boosted up to 3 times per deposit. Most streamers have to wager a very long time, this is good because it extends the streaming time.

 

[JohnSnow]

Lol roshtein betting 50 euro each spin every single day all day long. Need to think about becoming a streamer to make back my losses over the years gambling oO

Yeah roshtein had to be mentioned AGAIN

 

[goatwack]

 

[Robert Rabbit]

Streamers dont stream to not make money out of it. There's your rule of thumb. There's always a catch. Some of 'm are honest. Some of 'm are not. Some of 'm prefer talking about the way it works (like Bandit), some would kick you out of their channel already before you where typing it.

Might be an unpopular opinion but that is one guy I can't stand. Throws in the occasional comment about responsible gambling and then loses tens of thousands in a one hour session, but there always seem to be a corresponding win announced somewhere, normally offline. He also seems a bit egotistical and fragile, even down to blocking comments on his you tube channel because people made adverse comments. I know he is popular but I just can't take to him

Following his mad rush at the beginning of the COVID outbreak however he has slowed down and is now barely streaming at all.

 

[Kroffe]

Might be an unpopular opinion but that is one guy I can't stand. Throws in the occasional comment about responsible gambling and then loses tens of thousands in a one hour session, but there always seem to be a corresponding win announced somewhere, normally offline. He also seems a bit egotistical and fragile, even down to blocking comments on his you tube channel because people made adverse comments. I know he is popular but I just can't take to him

Following his mad rush at the beginning of the COVID outbreak however he has slowed down and is now barely streaming at all.

I dont really watch streams anymore, but i used to back in the day.
Back then Bandit was one of the people i watched.
Very big difference on how he played back then vs how he plays now.

Used to be rare that he went over £2/spin.
Now every freaking video is 5 minutes of "lowrolling" then the rest of the video is him raising the stakes until he wins the money back that he lost in the first part of the video.
I think no other streamer advertises "raise stake and chase losses and it will all turn out nice" more than what he does.

I dont find it least bit entertaining to watch since its so far away from the way i play.
I mean, its far away from how 99.99% of players play.

 

[9HOURSAWAY]

Might be an unpopular opinion but that is one guy I can't stand. Throws in the occasional comment about responsible gambling and then loses tens of thousands in a one hour session, but there always seem to be a corresponding win announced somewhere, normally offline. He also seems a bit egotistical and fragile, even down to blocking comments on his you tube channel because people made adverse comments. I know he is popular but I just can't take to him

Following his mad rush at the beginning of the COVID outbreak however he has slowed down and is now barely streaming at all.

Spot on!

 

[Bloatgoat]

Might be an unpopular opinion but that is one guy I can't stand. Throws in the occasional comment about responsible gambling and then loses tens of thousands in a one hour session, but there always seem to be a corresponding win announced somewhere, normally offline. He also seems a bit egotistical and fragile, even down to blocking comments on his you tube channel because people made adverse comments. I know he is popular but I just can't take to him

Your not obligated to watch the bandit really, so if you dont like him, dont watch it. In my opinion he's an entertaining guy, is the only one that actually dares to go high limit, has a family, kids on which he watches out for, and plays / streams once in every 2 weeks. He already clarified on how much he would make on the affiliate comissions and really it's not alot.

Rocknrolla is a cool guy too, but since Providers moving the goal posts is happening you can see that Rocknrolla more plays table games now with (fast and big) losses overall. There's not alot really good streamers tho. I avoid watching "Streamers biggest wins" with their faces all over the screen and their affiliated gameplay. Thats my personal opinion.

 

[goatwack]

Should anyone with a family/ kids do high-stakes betting and promote others to do the same?

Just a random musing there

 

[goatwack]

Also of particular amusement that people will excuse x/y/z's behaviours when it's their favourite streamer, as the rules don't apply then, and it's the 'others' who are irresponsible shills

"But he's one of the good streamers"

Another random musing

 

[colinsunderland]

We all know the harsh reality and that streamers can get up to 40 to 60% of your deposit loss. So in technical speaking a 100 deposit lost means 40 to 60 for the streamer. Multiply that by 100 your looking at 4000 to 6000 and take the big streamers that could run into thousands of affiliates and your looking at a jackpot.

Just going to ask, I would love to know which casinos you think pay 60% of losses, or even 40%?
There are very few that pay close to the advertised percentage, and those that do would be bankrupt after a couple of months if they were paying 60%. Videoslots for example, advertise 25% and actually pay around 4%.
Most streamers, I imagine, are on CPA deals, thats why they switch casinos they promote so often.

 

[Bloatgoat]

Should anyone with a family/ kids do high-stakes betting and promote others to do the same?

Just a random musing there

Ffs it's an adult let him do what he wants.

Just going to ask, I would love to know which casinos you think pay 60% of losses, or even 40%?
There are very few that pay close to the advertised percentage, and those that do would be bankrupt after a couple of months if they were paying 60%. Videoslots for example, advertise 25% and actually pay around 4%.
Most streamers, I imagine, are on CPA deals, thats why they switch casinos they promote so often.

Search long enough and you'll find vague casino's that offer up to 40 to 60%. No such thing as going bankrupt. A casino would still take at least 30% of that deposit. We're talking about a loss upon deposit.

 

[goatwack]

Ffs it's an adult let him do what he wants.



Search long enough and you'll find vague casino's that offer up to 40 to 60%. No such thing as going bankrupt. A casino would still take at least 30% of that deposit. We're talking about a loss upon deposit.

Great answer

You just proved my point

Enjoy watching your 'family man' streamer

 

[colinsunderland]

Ffs it's an adult let him do what he wants.



Search long enough and you'll find vague casino's that offer up to 40 to 60%. No such thing as going bankrupt. A casino would still take at least 30% of that deposit. We're talking about a loss upon deposit.

I can find them advertising that much easily. I was asking which actually pay that much though?
You clearly have no idea about the running costs of a casino though if you think paying 60% of gross revenue is close to being possible.

 

[Bloatgoat]

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First hits. There are PLENTY of casino affiliate's out there that offer 60%. The terms is however that the depositted money has to be lost first before 60% can be deducted. They still take 30% of that loss deposit.

It's proberly ran down very well in the numbering, they dont advertise something that would go affilliates or casino's go bankrupt.

 

[colinsunderland]

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First hits. There are PLENTY of casino affiliate's out there that offer 60%. The terms is however that the depositted money has to be lost first before 60% can be deducted. They still take 30% of that loss deposit.

It's proberly ran down very well in the numbering, they dont advertise something that would go affilliates or casino's go bankrupt.

ok, so the first one on that list I can get figures on (from AGD) is playgrand. The 60% is for the first month only, 55% second, then its around 30%, heres playgrands real figures

● 25% = 19.35 %
● 30% = 23.22 %
● 35% = 27.09 %
● 40% = 30.96 %
● 45% = 34.83 %

Another is game revenue affiliates who I've never heard of but state

Your commission is based on the casino gross revenue for each player you refer. There is no restriction as to how much you can earn. The more your referred players deposit (except chargeback situation) and play at the casino, the more profit you will earn. There are 3 level commission payments:

• First (basic) level - 20% from the profit of each Game-Revenue’s project.
• Second (medium) level - 35% from the profit of each Game-Revenue’s project.
• Third (high) level - 45%from the profit of each Game-Revenue’s project.

Note the 'from the profit' part, that isn't the same as customer loss.

The others who advertise 60% are, oh wait, there aren't any.

Heres examples of real percentages, rather than what are advertised. I've just picked some well known casinos

Betsson Group

25% = 16.23 %
30% = 19.47 %
35% = 22.72 %
40% = 25.96 %
45% = 29.21 %

Gig affiliates

30% = 21.83%
35% = 25.47%
40% = 29.11%
45% = 32.75%

Videoslots

25% = 3.08%
30% = 3.70%
35% = 4.32%
40% = 4.93%
45% = 5.55%

Genesis

25% = 16.60 %
30% = 19.92 %
35% = 23.24 %
40% = 26.56 %
45% = 29.88 %

N1

25% = 16.25 %
30% = 19.50 %
35% = 22.75 %
40% = 26.00 %
45% = 29.25 %

But bear in mind, those figures are on Net Gaming Revenue, not on customer loss, so as an example, for N1, the deposit was 20, NGR was 13, commission was set at 45% and paid 5.85. 45% of 20 is not 5.85.

I can guarantee no affiliate is getting 60% of customer losses.

 

[Bloatgoat]

Well a few years ago 60% was pretty the norm with good affiliate programs. It's deducted now obviously but on avg your still looking at 25 to 30%. Thats still 25 to 30 quid on top of a 100 quid deposit / loss.

 

[colinsunderland]

Well a few years ago 60% was pretty the norm with good affiliate programs. It's deducted now obviously but on avg your still looking at 25 to 30%. Thats still 25 to 30 quid on top of a 100 quid deposit / loss.

Big drop to what you stated though, and if you have winning customers you can end up with nothing for the month.
Regardless of that, most streamers will be on CPA.
The customers, on the whole, are low quality, bonus hunters. They would make more getting £150 a player than they would on rev share. Thats why they switch casinos so often. If you got 500 customers to sign up at say Trada, on a 30% rev share deal, why would you, the following month, encourage them to sign up at Casumo, then the following month at LeoVegas? You would want them to keep playing at Trada so you could get your rev share.

 

[Bloatgoat]

I dont know dude. I'm just clarifying the profit on affiliate's. It used to be 60%, now it leverages in between 25 and 32% which is'nt a bad number either, but who cares. This is the reason why affilliate streaming is so hot and so many are streaming right now. One with bigger wins then the other, and it's such a fantastic money making treasure, while on the other hand dumping on loads of players that lose more then they could afford in the first place. GG.

 

[samdog21]

When things are streaming along on live casino on YouTube life is really good those long streamers make life good as In 25$ on 40 hit 7× multiplier, that's one long mother fucking streamer ✌

 

[Mr_Slot5]

Should anyone with a family/ kids do high-stakes betting and promote others to do the same?

Just a random musing there

Well why not IF you know you'll get your money back owing to the slots being tilted in your favour. Listen, you don't bet those sort of stakes (no matter how wealthy you are) unless you know you're getting a fair slice back one way or another.

I know of people who have gone completely broke staying at £1 spins or under. I know of people who have gone on 6 months-1 year losing streaks, getting nowhere near what they've put in back.

Slots simply and utterly don't play for us how they do for some of the streamers and it's that simple. It's all advertising smoke and mirrors...like seeing an advert for this-

and getting this...

 

[Robert Rabbit]

Your not obligated to watch the bandit really, so if you dont like him, dont watch it. In my opinion he's an entertaining guy, is the only one that actually dares to go high limit, has a family, kids on which he watches out for, and plays / streams once in every 2 weeks. He already clarified on how much he would make on the affiliate comissions and really it's not alot.

Rocknrolla is a cool guy too, but since Providers moving the goal posts is happening you can see that Rocknrolla more plays table games now with (fast and big) losses overall. There's not alot really good streamers tho. I avoid watching "Streamers biggest wins" with their faces all over the screen and their affiliated gameplay. Thats my personal opinion.

To be honest I don't watch him as I find him intensely boring with his tired old catchphrases, I just flick through to see what outlandish figures he has won or lost that day. I do have some cynicism with the "doesn't make much from affiliation though". I started watching him many years ago when he starting playing at 40p stakes as he stated that was all he could afford. He has now moved on to £40 spins and being able to shrug of £70,000 losses with a shrug. Something doesn't ring true for me.

But again it's all down to personal opinion and personal preference - I just don't think anyone should be promoting gambling at the levels he plays, and if you are broadcasting as an affiliate, you are promoting gambling, it's how you make your money (note that I have no issues with that).

 

[Bloatgoat]

"At the levels he plays" ... Dude it's not what you think. It's his money, his stream, his video's. If you dont like it dont watch. Stick with streamers with 300% deposit bonus that make big wins every 5 minutes then.

 

[BrianGhattas]

Eh, I stopped watching streamers months ago or anything on Twitch. Tired of the phony personalities, the same games being played (does Pragmatic and Play N Go pay these guys) and the ass kissing. Just don’t care any more.

Good for them that they found jobs as “professional slot machine players” but it isn’t as fun as it looks.

 

[DreamRJ]

Need to name and shame another streamer which is 100% fake, noticed him for over a week. The Live camera is on some kind of loop, he wears exactly the same every day and the monitor with that timer on behind him is also wrong. Streams are also very long, currently shows online time of 17 hours........ So this is 100% fake streamer.......

name of streamer is:

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I reported him soo many times and still he is still online? Why has twitch not banned him yet?

 

[Bloatgoat]

Well i know there are people who create a channel with solely the purpose of gathering likes, followers just to spam affiliate links. I know also that they use prerecorded streams (like attached all in one big go) and repeat that over and over again on such channels.

Your report is'nt taken serious because it would take an X amount of reports for the staff of twitch or YT to actually do something. More then account closure is about it. Spammers do the same thing again, come back, blabla. It's a never ending cycle with these big brands like YT, FB, IG, Twitch etc. Their moderation / report feature is just garbage.

 

[Luckyscouser45]

My bug bear is streamers who promote awful casinos most people who watch them don’t know anything about casino meister and don’t know how disgustingly bad progress play casinos are

 

[Borgie]

My bug bear is streamers who promote awful casinos most people who watch them don’t know anything about casino meister and don’t know how disgustingly bad progress play casinos are

Any particular streamer ?

 

[Kroffe]

My bug bear is streamers who promote awful casinos most people who watch them don’t know anything about casino meister and don’t know how disgustingly bad progress play casinos are

I thought i told you not to call me that.

 

[Luckyscouser45]

Any particular streamer ?

I will give a clue.. same name as a well known kids programme Alvin Simon Theodore do you get the drift now

 

[Borgie]

I will give a clue.. same name as a well known kids programme Alvin Simon Theodore do you get the drift now

Oh yes lol

 

[Davey86]

It’s amazing from 0.60p stakes to £40. £50 spins within 2 years is affiliation really that lucrative if your not fussy about who you promote?
now it’s just a serious gambling addiction on stream off stream £10 £20 £40 of

 

[Robert Rabbit]

It’s amazing from 0.60p stakes to £40. £50 spins within 2 years is affiliation really that lucrative if your not fussy about who you promote?
now it’s just a serious gambling addiction on stream off stream £10 £20 £40 of

Bandit, Jimbo, Craig - all streamers who have gone from low stakes to excessive gambling and show immense wins at these stakes (while purportedly encouraging responsible gambling) - clearly affiliation is very lucrative.

You could argue that they also show big losses on occasions - but gamblers are naturally optimists, that's why the gamble, they have the National Lottery view that "it could be you", despite all the evidence to the contrary

 

[goatwack]

£40 seems like reasonable stakes to me. Don't see what the issue is

It is after all 'their' money, and promotes Responsible Gambling, with the little banners at the bottom somewhere

And if one can copy them, and only lose the wife & car, not the house, they can sleep sound in the knowledge they haven't promoted any irresponsible behaviours from their transfixed clan members

 

[Borgie]

£40 seems like reasonable stakes to me. Don't see what the issue is

It is after all 'their' money, and promotes Responsible Gambling, with the little banners at the bottom somewhere

And if one can copy them, and only lose the wife & car, not the house, they can sleep sound in the knowledge they haven't promoted any irresponsible behaviours from their transfixed clan members

You've been trying to gamble your partner away again havent you

 

[Robert Rabbit]

You've been trying to gamble your partner away again havent you

I went to a wife swapping party with mine - got a Kindle Fire and £10 thrown in. I think I got the best of the deal