[IN PROGRESS] Luckyacecasino - bonus "abuse" problem

[vinylweatherman]

While there terms allow such actions, there is still the sanction of placing them either in the "not recommended" or "rogue" section for the widespread use of their "F U Clause". This is just the same as the Virtual group of RTG casinos have been doing, and again, no amount of intervention from Max or Bryan has managed to get players paid, however, the bad publicity of the rogue section seeks to cut their income in the hope that they will either go bust and make way for a more reputable outfit, or decide to change their ways.

The eCogra seal has been removed from their website now, and they are now "regulated" by IGC. This deception alone indicates they were willing to lie to convince new players they were eCogra members, and had access to an independent dispute resolution procedure.

This is going along the same lines as with Reef Club. They start by swearing they are a separate entity, yet it seems they are now banning players who are known to have accounts at 888.com.

Along with this, they are listed on a number of "bonus whoring" forums because of their Blackjack friendly (and thus Cassava bot friendly ) SUB.

I have found reference to Casinomeister on some of these whoring sites, but no direct encouragement to run here with PABs. It may be that the admins of these sites are advising using PAB here by PM to affected members.

Lucky Ace may be using the aff ID to track players coming in from these bonus whoring sites, which labels them as "high risk" even before they have played their first hand of Blackjack.

The Cassava bot has been around for some time, and it is likely it can be detected by the operators in the same way that poker bots are detected.
ANY player who has used this bot with the SUB has been fairly caught, it's an "occupational hazzard", and no doubt they have done well from it in the past.
It is also possible that a large number of "innocent" players are being caught up in the crossfire, which is what is going to damage the reputation of Lucky Ace. Other sites are already adding this casino to their "casino cautions" list - it seems this non-payment, and use of the "FU Clause", is pretty widespread with them, even though they have only just opened.

 

[maxd]

Great post VWM, thanks for the leg work.

It's good to hear that the eCOGRA seal is off the Lucky Ace site but as mentioned, my recommendation to Bryan when he returns to the office later this week will be that LA be black-flagged for their recent actions.

 

[Mousey]

In the event that the Company believes a user is abusing or attempting to abuse a bonus or other promotion, or is likely to benefit through abuse or lack of good faith from a gaming policy adopted by the Company, then the Company may, at its sole discretion, deny, withhold or withdraw from any user any bonus or promotion, or rescind any policy with respect to that user, either temporarily or permanently, or terminate that user's access to the Service and/or block that user's account.

I've attempted another read through this thread for clarification -- I'm in a bit of hurry (finish my coffee and then off to work ) -- but is LuckyAce/888 also returning deposits of 'abusers' who lost?

 

[jetset]

I have to agree with VWM, and to a certain extent Max too.

Using the catch-all (or FU) clause indiscriminately as appears to be the case here to avoid paying players who have otherwise complied with promo T&Cs and have not been previously black-listed is definitely rogue behaviour that merits a rogue listing.

It is simply not conducting business with integrity imo, and by not engaging with advocates like Max, the 888.com people are refusing to justify and give grounds for their Luckyace decisions in each case, regardless of what their "we can do whatever we like" clauses say.

It's just too easy for a dishonest operator to make a unilateral judgement that a winning player has been guilty of so-called bonus abuse and then confiscate his winnings and promised bonuses without further explanation. The return of a deposit may to some extent ameliorate the wrongdoing, but it certainly doesn't excuse it in my view.

Something is badly wrong here - there are way too many complaints from diverse locations and too little explanation from 888.com - even in confidence to Max - for comfort.

You don't get this sort of thing happening at reputable white labelers like St Minver (as one example) afaik. The false use of the eCOGRA seal is another negative indicator (afraid I have no confidence in the IGC being any use here)

This is also setting a perilous precedent for white labeled operations, whereby any operator who has perhaps miscalculated a promo or is for some other reason feeling too much pain from a misguided promo offer can merely roll out the FU clause and duck both bonus and win obligations at will.

I don't think the FU clause should be allowed to stand between 888.com/Luckyace and a blacklisting if this issue is not addressed in a more communicative fashion by 888.com.

And Max is absolutely right - players need to take a very close look at this affair before giving any business to Luckyace.

 

[Fender1]

Balls?!? What have balls got to do with this? Have you read my posts here? Do you have any idea what's actually going on?

Am I not the one juggling the 20+ complaints (many of which are invalid because the person didn't bother to read the rules for submitting one in the first place), trying to get eCOGRA and/or 888 to step up to the plate, pressing the so-called 888 rep here to take some action, and working my weekends (basically for free) to get this mess sorted out? Not to mention all the other non-LuckyAce issues on my plate. And you have the brass to say I have no balls?!?

Here's balls for you: players who agree to "we can rape you when and where we feel like it" Terms and Conditions simply in order to get a shot at a nice, fat, easy pickings bonus are fools! The casino always wins if they really want to play it that way and anyone who thinks differently is terminally naive. Yes, most casinos won't do what Lucky Ace is doing because their reputation would be shit if they did. That's a good thing and we should all play at those casinos. But when push comes to shove the T&Cs rule and here the T&Cs say "tough titty." End of story.

While we're on the subject of balls, how about we talk about what I can do to help this situation. I can recommend that Lucky Ace be black-listed for all the shit they've pulled and I intend to do just that. I can suggest that a close, hard look be taken at 888's responsibility in all this and I intend to do that too. And I can be up-front and straight with these players about what their real chances are in terms of getting any satisfaction out of their grievances. Have done. And last but not least I can ask you for an apology for your well meant but seriously misplaced criticism.

There, how's that for balls?



My my, what an unpleasantly sanctimonious person you've managed to be. I may have found my first candidate for the "Ignore" filter.

Well thats better, at least you are now showing some interest, 10 minutes ago you were throwing in the towel. And yes I know exactley what is going on here. A rogue casino stealing players winning on a large scale, whether they can legally get away with it, because its in the small print, is hardly the point

If a casino interpets the rules in an unfair way, that should be enough grounds for a complaint.

And we are not talking just a few players here, 100s would be my guess. I have over 20 on my site alone.

Pretty good business plan, if the player loses great, if the player wins just return their deposit.

On such a widespread scale, the word fraud springs to mind.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Well thats better, at least you are now showing some interest, 10 minutes ago you were throwing in the towel. And yes I know exactley what is going on here. A rogue casino stealing players winning on a large scale, whether they can legally get away with it, because its in the small print, is hardly the point

If a casino interpets the rules in an unfair way, that should be enough grounds for a complaint.

And we are not talking just a few players here, 100s would be my guess. I have over 20 on my site alone.

Pretty good business plan, if the player loses great, if the player wins just return their deposit.

On such a widespread scale, the word fraud springs to mind.

What site would this be then?

Your profile has "none" for webmastered sites.

It is possible that your 20 players are having problems due to following the recommendations on your site, not forgetting that your aff ID can be used by Lucky Ace to detect the players you are sending to them.
If your site is still promoting them, we have to ask why, since you clearly believe they are frauds. The other bonus whoring sites seem to be sitting on the fence, both promoting the SUB with a "get it while you can" attitude, but at the same time discussing the problems of non-payment.

 

[Fender1]

I have pmd you the details of the site that I am from. Not alowed to mention rival sites here.

Surely the can be no question now that these guys are frauds. I mean how much more blatent do you want. Check out the other forums, wherever you go, same story.

Im struggling to remember a case as bad as this

 

[maxd]

LATER: What follows is the original text of this post. As mentioned above I was barking up the wrong tree. Please see this post for the new improved take on this issue.
---------------

Well thats better, at least you are now showing some interest, 10 minutes ago you were throwing in the towel.

I have no clue where you're getting that from but whatever, your comments have been inappropriate and ill-informed so far so I'm not surprised that state of confusion persists.

As it happens I've been working on this LuckyAce thing for over a week now and have only recently made up my mind about what is and isn't going on here. Yes, sometimes it does take some of us a little time to come to conclusions what with the evidence gathering and due diligence and all, unlike yourself who seems to perform great leaps of conclusion jumping with absolutely no evidence or grounds whatsoever. Still waiting for that apology by the way.

My recommendations to Bryan re: Lucky Ace would have been submitted already but he's away this week so they wait.

Re: JetSet's thoughts on LuckyAce's performance, I completely agree that the FU clause should be no dodge from the consequences of using it. LA has behaved abominably and should be flagged accordingly.

However, in terms of a player's PAB the FU clause + deposit returned is basically the end of the road. Why? Ask yourself the purpose of the PAB. It is a complaint from a player to us in the understanding that we'll bring it up with the casino. If the casino has acted according to the letter of their T&Cs then there's no issue, especially if the deposit was returned. Do I respect them for doing this? Not a chance, but I can't argue with them about it either because they've acted as per their agreement with the player. So in terms of the PAB it's a dead issue.

What we choose to do about a casino that is FU'ing great numbers of players though is a different issue. That's up to us, not them and their T&Cs, and so we can obviously move forward there where the PABs may be dead in the water. As I've said, we'll do so when B. returns.

 

[Fender1]

Quote:
As it happens I've been working on this LuckyAce thing for over a week now and have only recently made up my mind about what is and isn't going on here. Yes, sometimes it does take some of us a little time to come to conclusions what with the evidence gathering and due diligence and all, unlike yourself who seems to perform great leaps of conclusion jumping with absolutely no evidence or grounds whatsoever. Still waiting for that apology by the way. quote

What you talking about Max, Yes I knew what was going on the first day when the "We ain't paying you because you won" emails started being sent out

Then again I may have more experience of these matters than yourself.

Seen it all before sadly. I am pleased that you will be taking some action, and will be even more impressed, should that action result in those players affected receiving their confiscated winnings. That really should be the main aim, dont you agree?

 

[maxd]

LATER: What follows is the original text of this post. As mentioned above I was barking up the wrong tree. Please see this post for the new improved take on this issue.
---------------

What you talking about Max

I'm talking about your cheap little insults like "ready to throw in the towel", "get some balls", "stand aside" and the like. You have no idea what I'm doing, how I'm doing it or where it's going.

So far it looks like I've contributed to get Lucky Ace start paying back at least the deposits, get the bogus eCOGRA seal removed from the LA site and I may or may not end up getting LA blacklisted depending on how they proceed with this. What have you done aside from piss me off? Not much that I can see. In any case you haven't done it here so go thump your chest somewhere else.

I have no idea who you think you are but if you think you have more experience at this than I do, congrats! Considering I started doing this about 8 weeks ago I'm not sure that's saying much. In any case you know Bryan's email address, send him your resum if you think you're the man for the job. In the meantime get of my tits and spare me the pissant cheap shots.

I am pleased that you will be taking some action, and will be even more impressed, should that action result in those players affected receiving their confiscated winnings. That really should be the main aim, dont you agree?

No, I don't agree. Why? Because it's not going to happen. Either they can't or they won't but the end result is the same: not happening! You can preach all you like about what should happen or what lofty goals one might have but I'm living in the real world and that spells this: we're lucky if we get the player's deposits back and the casino gets what it seems determined to have in terms of it's listing here.

As to your "being pleased" etc please, spare me the love. Insults and denigration coming out of one side of your mouth and back-handed compliments out of the other add up to bullshit both ways if you ask me.

 

[GaryWatson]

Fender, there could be other issues surrounding this that hasnt come to light. It could be an overreaction to an affiliate CPA scam + Min Deposits & Max bonuses. Could be many factors. It does look iffy but do you not think its better for CM to gather facts before jumping in? Some sites are too quick to freeze accounts but a less confrontation approach may open the gates to communication.

 

[Fender1]

I'm talking about your cheap little insults like "ready to throw in the towel", "get some balls", "stand aside" and the like. You have no idea what I'm doing, how I'm doing it or where it's going.

So far it looks like I've contributed to get Lucky Ace start paying back at least the deposits, get the bogus eCOGRA seal removed from the LA site and I may or may not end up getting LA blacklisted depending on how they proceed with this. What have you done aside from piss me off? Not much that I can see. In any case you haven't done it here so go thump your chest somewhere else.

I have no idea who you think you are but if you think you have more experience at this than I do, congrats! Considering I started doing this about 8 weeks ago I'm not sure that's saying much. In any case you know Bryan's email address, send him your resum if you think you're the man for the job. In the meantime get of my tits and spare me the pissant cheap shots.

No, I don't agree. Why? Because it's not going to happen. Either they can't or they won't but the end result is the same: not happening! You can preach all you like about what should happen or what lofty goals one might have but I'm living in the real world and that spells this: we're lucky if we get the player's deposits back and the casino gets what it seems determined to have in terms of it's listing here.

As to your "being pleased" etc please, spare me the love. Insults and denigration coming out of one side of your mouth and back-handed compliments out of the other add up to bullshit both ways if you ask me.

I am sure that all those players that have had money stolen from them, will be sleeping more easily tonight with such encouraging comments like "Because it's not going to happen. Either they can't or they won't but the end result is the same: not happening"

It does happen, casinos do back down and return winnings, if you put some pressure on them, but your giving up before you have even started.

Anyway lets cease the insult trading, best of luck with Luck Ace, I think your going to need it.

 

[Fender1]

Fender, there could be other issues surrounding this that hasnt come to light. It could be an overreaction to an affiliate CPA scam + Min Deposits & Max bonuses. Could be many factors. It does look iffy but do you not think its better for CM to gather facts before jumping in? Some sites are too quick to freeze accounts but a less confrontation approach may open the gates to communication.

Yes perhaps, but you have to go in with a positive approach, getting the players winnings returned has to be the ultimate aim. They were always going to return the deposits anyway.

 

[Roar]

And I respectfully decline. Aside from the fact that we're getting into serious hair-splitting here -- as in you can choose one interpretation while I might choose another. Are either of us lawyers? Is this a court? -- you might want to note the following from those same T&Cs:



The way I read this they can close your account, take "any amounts owed by you to us" which could be taken to mean the winnings and the bonus, refund your deposit and send you on your way. Which is what they've done.

I'm telling you that there is no point in pursuing a case that they will tell me is invalid because of their T&Cs. After all, I'd be appealing to them for resolution not some disinterested third party. Frankly if you want to debate this further I suggest you engage a lawyer and take it up with the casino. As far as I'm concerned it's "case closed" for the reasons given.

Max if I may prevail upon your better judgment one last time.

On registering at this or indeed any online Casino Players are immediately swamped with reams of Legalese that form under the heading T+Cs. One has to have at least a quasi understanding of Legal Terms in order to at least partly understand and comprehend their meaning and intent.

It was not my intent to "split hairs". On the contrary, I applied ordinary everyday use of the English Dictionary to elicit the meaning and intent of the following T+Cs:

"Quote:
In the event that the Company believes a user is abusing or attempting to abuse a bonus or other promotion, or is likely to benefit through abuse or lack of good faith from a gaming policy adopted by the Company, then the Company may, at its sole discretion, deny, withhold or withdraw from any user any bonus or promotion, or rescind any policy with respect to that user, either temporarily or permanently, or terminate that user's access to the Service and/or block that user's account."

The T+Cs conspicuously do not mention the withholding of "winnings" per se but only a "bonus" or "promotion".

On completion of certain wagering requirements a bonus becomes cashable as winnings. This change of status is practicably demonstrated at many Casinos that shift funds from a "pending bonus" status to a "cash balance" on fulfilling WRs (Chartwell SW casinos come instantly to mind).

Whoever framed this particular T+Cs had this in mind on choosing words "is" or "is likely" (connoting present or future tense) instead of "has" (connoting past tense). Allow me to illustrate the affect of substituting the word "is" for "has":

In the event that the Company believes a user has abused a bonus or other promotion, or has benefited through abuse or lack of good faith..........

Do you not agree that is manifestly different in meaning and intent from the present T+Cs? Are we not entitled to apply ordinary interpretation from the English dictionary to elicit meaning from such words?

By the time Players have cashed out and requested withdrawals any perception of "bonus abuse" has past into a historical perspective and accordingly escapes the specific present or future context for which the subject T+Cs were intended. The bonus is no longer a bonus per se but cashable winnings for which the T+Cs do not cover.

I wish all involved good luck, good fortune and good times.

 

[RobWin]

The eCogra seal has been removed from their website now, and they are now "regulated" by IGC. This deception alone indicates they were willing to lie to convince new players they were eCogra members, and had access to an independent dispute resolution procedure.

No, not quite yet VWM...it's still there as you can see from the time stamp and pic below...

 

[maxd]

LATER: What follows is the original text of this post. As mentioned above I was barking up the wrong tree. Please see this post for the new improved take on this issue.
---------------

I am sure that all those players that have had money stolen from them, will be sleeping more easily tonight with such encouraging comments like ... Anyway lets cease the insult trading.

Nice try: insult, then say "lets cease the insult trading."

You know what, if it was up to me you'd be toast here. You're a smug, insulting, troublemaker who can't say "sugar" without saying "shit" and the net worth of your little contribution on this topic -- as I'm assuming is typical for you -- has been less than zero. But I guess it's your lucky day because it's not up to me. Funny how life works some times.

In any case what I'm hearing is that the players are at least happy to be getting their deposits back. Not what it could be to be sure, but a lot better than nothing.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

However, in terms of a player's PAB the FU clause + deposit returned is basically the end of the road.

No dog in this hunt but this thread reminds me of the Fortune Lounge heated legnthy thread that was a similiar situation (where at times CM was conflicted but eventually threw FL into the Pit) and the PAB's were basically not the end of the road for the innocent as FL applied the FU clause (just as about 99% of all online casinos can if they desire) and other terms initially to both the non-innocents and what later would be determined a few innocents. That said, I am sure CM's past relationship and contacts as well as persistence with FL helped to eventually get the non bonus abusers and non fraudsters paid their winnings. Simply may not be possible here as Lucky... simply may not care!

 

[jetset]

Fender, you're talking a big game here, but as a webmaster yourself what are you doing to achieve the goals you are so quick to accuse Max of neglecting?

BTW, I'm sure most of us would be happy to make an exception on the self-spamming protocol by allowing you to identify your website here - it may be interesting to see how you are handling this issue and how experienced you are in view of your comments here.

Edited to add that Nash makes a good point - there have been a number of Casinomeister FU interventions where robust persuasion has caused operators to reconsider sometimes hasty and unfair decisions.

 

[maxd]

LATER: What follows is the original text of this post. As mentioned above I was barking up the wrong tree. Please see this post for the new improved take on this issue.
---------------

Max if I may prevail upon your better judgment one last time.

And one last time I decline. Bantering the nuances of the wording in terms and conditions with a casino that has demonstrated that they are intent of wiping winnings off the books under the protection of those terms and conditions seem to me the world's most useless activity. Lawyers find such activities profitable because they get paid to do it, I don't and I won't.

It doesn't matter what "could" or "might" be derived from that wording. What matters is that they're using the T&Cs to justify their actions and there is no reason to believe that appealing to their higher linguistic sensibilities will change that.

 

[juan988]

Nice try: insult, then say "lets cease the insult trading."

You know what, if it was up to me you'd be toast here. You're a smug, insulting, troublemaker who can't say "sugar" without saying "shit" and the net worth of your little contribution on this topic -- as I'm assuming is typical for you -- has been less than zero. But I guess it's your lucky day because it's not up to me. Funny how life works some times.

In any case what I'm hearing is that the players are at least happy to be getting their deposits back. Not what it could be to be sure, but a lot better than nothing.

To be entirely honest, and I don't know about other players, but I can't claim to be happy about getting only my deposit back.

It's a kick straight in the face. We can all sit quite comfortably to know that now, and officially, bonus abuse is not a rarity or particular case, it occurs almost everytime somebody wins with a low house-edge game.

 

[Hank Chinaski]

I think Maxd's attitude is appalling , I think this site is little more than an affilaite site now.

Can I suggest you visit SportsBookReview Maxd, and ask the staff there for some lessons in how handle cases like this, you are obviously out of your league.

 

[winna12]

Rceived this from the so called casino luckyace/888.com-

Dear xxxxx

This is Linda from the Operations Department at Cassava Enterprises
(Gibraltar) Ltd. Cassava Enterprises manage operational services for LuckyAceCasino.com.

Please be advised that we have reviewed you account and the decision taken to terminate your account still stands and it will not be revoked.
Your initial deposit has been returned from where it came from.

I ask that you refrain from opening any further account on our site or affiliates.

I now consider this issue closed and there will be no further correspondence on this issue.

Kindest regards,
Linda
Operations Department
Cassava Enterprises (Gibraltar) Ltd.
[email protected]

ive pab but now im on my own by the look of things,will these ba**ards pay the people that lost their deposits NO,all they want is LOSERS not winners,and they have proved that,Anyway anyone got any advice?is it worth me going alone and emailing the grai in gibraltar,or just forget about it,any suggestions welcome.

 

[aka23]

In the event that the Company believes a user is abusing or attempting to abuse a bonus or other promotion, or is likely to benefit through abuse or lack of good faith from a gaming policy adopted by the Company, then the Company may, at its sole discretion, deny, withhold or withdraw from any user any bonus or promotion, or rescind any policy with respect to that user, either temporarily or permanently, or terminate that user's access to the Service and/or block that user's account.

So, if you receive one of those "goodbye" letters AND you get your deposit back then you have no grounds to complain and certainly no grounds for a PAB. LATER: Let me elaborate a little. I would say you do have grounds to be pissed off and point them out for their lousy actions but according to the terms of the player agreement at LuckyAce you don't technically have a grievance you can bring before them.

So let me spell this out: if your Lucky Ace account is closed and you get your deposit back then they are doing exactly what you agreed to let them do and there are no grounds for a PAB.

The problem is how you define "attempting to abuse a bonus or other promotion, or is likely to benefit through abuse or lack of good faith." A casino could say anyone who takes a bonus and has a large win is attempting to abuse the bonus and/or lacks good faith, and anyone who has a loss is not attempting to abuse the bonus. In my opinion, you need to do something that violates the T&C to "abuse a bonus," such as have multiple accounts.

 

[tsj]

The problem is how you define "attempting to abuse a bonus or other promotion, or is likely to benefit through abuse or lack of good faith." A casino could say anyone who takes a bonus and has a large win is attempting to abuse the bonus and/or lacks good faith, and anyone who has a loss is not attempting to abuse the bonus. In my opinion, you need to do something that violates the T&C to "abuse a bonus," such as have multiple accounts.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Hank Chinaski]

is it worth me going alone and emailing the grai in gibraltar,or just forget about it,any suggestions welcome

There are forms to fill in on the help section GRA , I suggest its probably a far better route than asking for help here.

1) email luckyace and tell them you intend to contact the GRA if they do not pay you your winnings in 48 hours

2) Tell them you will also be bringing up the ecogra issue with the GRA, and tell them you have a screen shot

If that fails then download the forms from www.gra.gi .

 

[anotherHunney]

Apparently Maxd and this site has a substantial interest in future affiliate money. Otherwise calling yourself "Casino Watchdog" while being content if winning players are just refunded their initial deposits is plain ridiculous.

Especially if LuckyAce's T&C's explicitely state:

In the event that the Company believes a user is abusing or attempting to abuse a bonus or other promotion, or is likely to benefit through abuse or lack of good faith from a gaming policy adopted by the Company, then the Company may, at its sole discretion, deny, withhold or withdraw from any user any bonus or promotion, or rescind any policy with respect to that user, either temporarily or permanently, or terminate that user's access to the Service and/or block that user's account.

So even in this scenario they only entitle themselves to steal back their bonus offer - but not the winnings. So - unless they show some evidence that the bonus money was involved in my winnings - they are obliged to pay me my deposit and winnings.

Consider my PAB "solved" - since LAC's gracious refund has arrived.

 

[BLACKJACKBOY]

I was told to come here, as it was the place to get help, if you have problems with a casino. I too am a victim of Lucky Ace

Having read the thread, I dont think Im going to get much help here.

My opinion, for whats its worth? I think Fender1 make some valid points, a bit aggressive perhaps, but maybe thats whats is needed here.

As for Maxd the complaints Manager, Well he just seems more interested in showing how clever he thinks he is, and insulting the members.

If anyone should apologise it should be Maxd for his major attitude problem.

As to the issue, First we are told issue a PAB, now Maxd is saying, forget that, dont want to be bothered with that.

Then in an act of complete stupidity, the Complaints manager, publically states in the open forum, that the players involved have no chance of ever, , getting their winnings, not the smartest of moves, no doubt the managers of Lucky Ace are well pleased to here this. Bet they cant wait to have dealing with Maxd

No one will be happy unless they are paid in full, as it should be, Maxd seems completely incompetent, regarding this issue. Perhaps the site owner should step in and take over, or appoint someone else to handle things.

No offence to anyone, just the way I see things.

Good luck to all who have lost money, hope you get some help somewhere.

 

[maxd]

LATER: What follows is the original text of this post. As mentioned above I was barking up the wrong tree. Please see this post for the new improved take on this issue.
---------------

... calling yourself "Casino Watchdog" while being content if winning players are just refunded their initial deposits is plain ridiculous.

You guys are really getting into this, unfortunately you seen to have totally missed the point of this discussion. No one is "content" with what's happened at Lucky Ace, as has been repeated many times. What happens to LuckyAce here at Casinomeister will be determined in the coming days but it's mostly going to be a question of what severity of warning we issue about them. I'm anything but "content" about it.

In any case that is a very different issue than being able to proceed with a given PAB, as has been explained.

 

[winbig]

*wonders who is telling people to come here*

I've never in my life seen so many 1st time posters complain about the same casino in the same thread, with almost the same story.

 

[Hank Chinaski]

If you want to be some help Max, see if you can find a decent contact in 888 group who we can start badgering , I dont mean some customer service numpty or a rep, but a decent contact who may give a **** about the damage being done to the brand.

 

[lots0]

Hey balackjackboy, Hank, fendre1 and anyone else that wants to whine and bitch about Casinomeister - you guys came here to ask for help, for FREE. When you did not get the answer you want, you then decide to trash the only people that are willing to even take a look at your problem...

If I were Max and Bryan I would throw out your whinny ass PAP and tell you to shove it where the sun don't shine. But Max and Bryan are much nicer than I am and even after your tirade they may still be willing to help you out.

For you complainers... You know getting ripped off is your own fault... 888 and it's dirty little tricks are well known and several top casino rating sites have blacklisted/Rogued 888 for using dirty little tricks like this... if you would have done your homework in the first place you would have known this.... Also spending a few minutes reading the 'terms and conditions' BEFORE you deposited any money would have paid off big for you guys....

Don't whine, because YOU did not do what YOU needed to do so YOU didn't get ripped off in the first place...

One last thing... Please remember... It your own fault you got ripped off, not Casinomeisters.

Even a simple search on google would have shown you guys they were not to be trusted...

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

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[anotherHunney]

*wonders who is telling people to come here*

I've never in my life seen so many 1st time posters complain about the same casino in the same thread, with almost the same story.

Yes - it is indeed very surprising that some people who usually think that there are more interesting topics than (writing about) online casinos look for a site which calls itself "Casino Watchdog and Player Advocate" when a casino steals substantial amounts of money from them.

 

[winbig]

Yes - it is indeed very surprising that some people who usually think that there are more interesting topics than (writing about) online casinos look for a site which calls itself "Casino Watchdog and Player Advocate" when a casino steals substantial amounts of money from them.

You misinterpreted my question. I'm wondering if all of these first time posters are being sent here from the same source.

 

[juan988]

I can't speak for other players, but to me Casinomeister is well known on the internet and publicized by 32 Red to help deal with player complaints, I've known about it for a long time but haven't had the time/necessity to join.

As for using their free services for disputes and complaining, I'm very happy to see this service, and I would gladly pay for it. But this decision to back off and as one poster mentionned, to publicly state this, is absolutely disastrous for players, practically speaking and from perhaps a moral standpoint.

 

[loganberry]

In the event that the Company believes a user is abusing or attempting to abuse a bonus or other promotion, or is likely to benefit through abuse or lack of good faith from a gaming policy adopted by the Company, then the Company may, at its sole discretion, deny, withhold or withdraw from any user any bonus or promotion, or rescind any policy with respect to that user, either temporarily or permanently, or terminate that user's access to the Service and/or block that user's account.

By signing up to the above T&Cs does not IMHO mean that the players have signed away all their rights. Surely what they are agreeing to is that bonus abuse will enable the casino to withdraw or deny the said bonus, i.e. invoke the FU clause, but only if bonus abuse exists. There have been many many threads in the past about this self-same issue, and in fact, I thought that the aim of this forum was to find out exactly how the T&Cs had been broken, then try to redress the issue.

But no! Instead what appears to now be happening is that the FU clause is being accepted as the casino's right to invoke at any time they choose, without having to prove anything at all. In fact, the worst punishment is that they will be placed on a blacklist. And regrettably MaxD appears to be condoning this behaviour.

But this isn't how CM used to work. When he used to stand up for any injustice perpetrated by casinos, particularly where T&Cs were concerned. What the hell is happening here?

As far as I am concerned, this really is the final nail in my confidence in online gambling. Too many rogue casinos out there, too many 'reputable' casinos acting in roguish ways.

That is it. I really am done. My decision on Sunday to withdraw from the forum now seems more justified than ever.

All I can say is good luck to anyone tainted by this fiasco, and I hope that someone, somewhere can make it good for you.

 

[winbig]

nvm, I'm not getting in the middle of this anymore.

*grabs some popcorn and watches the fireworks*

 

[aka23]

For you complainers... You know getting ripped off is your own fault... 888 and it's dirty little tricks are well known and several top casino rating sites have blacklisted/Rogued 888 for using dirty little tricks like this... if you would have done your homework in the first place you would have known this.... Also spending a few minutes reading the 'terms and conditions' BEFORE you deposited any money would have paid off big for you guys....

Don't whine, because YOU did not do what YOU needed to do so YOU didn't get ripped off in the first place...

One last thing... Please remember... It your own fault you got ripped off, not Casinomeisters.

Even a simple search on google would have shown you guys they were not to be trusted...

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888.com is no longer listed as a rogue casino here or at many other reputable sites. I believe it was temporariliy rogued for employing spamming/scraping affiliates, not for removing players' winnings or similar.

Lucky Ace is a new 888.com white label. I expect that most players with problems signed up soon after learning of this new casino, and before they would find anything useful in a Google search. Given the number of PIBs and number of posters in this thread, it's obvious that a large number of players signed up soon after the casino opened, which probably relates to why Lucky Ace is taking measures to avoid paying winnings.

 

[GrandMaster]

While this may not be the sort of thing that makes the casino very popular it is well within their rights to do so. Every player at Lucky Ace agrees to the following points in their

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when they sign on:

So, if you receive one of those "goodbye" letters AND you get your deposit back then you have no grounds to complain and certainly no grounds for a PAB. LATER: Let me elaborate a little. I would say you do have grounds to be pissed off and point them out for their lousy actions but according to the terms of the player agreement at LuckyAce you don't technically have a grievance you can bring before them.

I respectfully disagree. In the UK, there is a law against unfair consumer contracts. Here is some explanation from Link Removed (invalid URL) (my italics):

" A consumer is not bound by a standard term in a contract with a seller or supplier if that term is unfair.

Standard terms are those devised by a business in advance and not individually negotiated with the consumer. They do not have to be in writing but typically are found in the small print on the back of order forms etc.

A standard term is unfair if it creates a significant imbalance in the parties rights under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer, contrary to the requirement of good faith."

There are also certain statutory rights which cannot be excluded by contract and any such term in a contract is invalid and unenforceable. I have not investigated Gibraltar Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Act and other consumer protection legislation, but my point is that the clause allowing the casino to confiscate the bonus may well be invalid even if the player agreed to it.

The best thing ecogra could do to improve the industry is to require ecogra approved casinos to remove such clauses from their T&C.

 

[lots0]

...Instead what appears to now be happening is that the FU clause is being accepted as the casino's right to invoke at any time they choose, without having to prove anything at all.

You obviously don't understand what the FU clause is.

The FU clause does in fact give the casino the RIGHT to close your account and keep your money without having to prove anything or give a reason...

If you are stupid enough to agree to a FU clause then they (the casino) has the right (some may even say the obligation) to invoke the FU clause at any time they choose and keep all your money.

I guess thats why some folks say you should READ the T & C's.... BEFORE you deposit.

 

[RobWin]

888.com is no longer listed as a rogue casino here or at many other reputable sites.

You are right about that one aka, and Bryan can definitely fix that and I hope that he does list them as a Rogue here...it appears that they have certainly earned it...if for no other reason the simple fact that they still let Lucky Ace advertise the eCOGRA seal on their website...that alone to me is Rogue !!

I'm sure though that Max is limited in what he can do to help this situation other than recommend to Bryan to Rogue this bunch and in doing so may help prevent further players from being ripped off by this Rogue outfit...

 

[aka23]

You are right about that one aka, and Bryan can definitely fix that and I hope that he does list them as a Rogue here...it appears that they have certainly earned it...if for no other reason the simple fact that they still let Lucky Ace advertise the eCOGRA seal on their website...that alone to me is Rogue !!

I agree that Lucky Ace's actions warrant it appearning on the rogue or not recommended lists. However, I don't think 888.com should be added until the degree of the relationship between 888.com and Lucky Ace is confirmed. If Lucky Ace is the same thing as 888.com, then there wouldn't be an issue with Lucky Ace using the eCOGRA seal since 888.com is an eCOGRA approved casino.

 

[maxd]

LATER: What follows is the original text of this post. As mentioned above I was barking up the wrong tree. Please see this post for the new improved take on this issue.
---------------

And regrettably MaxD appears to be condoning this behaviour.

Bosh! Never condoned it in any way shape or form and still don't. As I've said over and over and over again, it is shabby behaviour and I'll do what I can to see that they are called out for it.

That said, a PAB is going nowhere if the casino can point to the Terms and say "it's in the Terms".

But this isn't how CM used to work. When he used to stand up for any injustice perpetrated by casinos, particularly where T&Cs were concerned.

As far as I know the process hasn't changed. No one has said that LA's T&Cs are laudable and I will, as I have made clear many times throughout this debate, be making recommendations to Bryan that LA's (mis)handling of the players and unwillingness to even look at the PABs be awarded with the black flag that it deserves.

In other words willfully misinterpreting what's going on here and why is not really about some change in the way things are done at Casinomeister, it's about another agenda entirely the meaning and purpose of which I'm not about to speculate.

 

[RobWin]

I agree that Lucky Ace's actions warrant it appearning on the rogue or not recommended lists. However, I don't think 888.com should be added until the degree of the relationship between 888.com and Lucky Ace is confirmed. If Lucky Ace is the same thing as 888.com, then there wouldn't be an issue with Lucky Ace using the eCOGRA seal since 888.com is an eCOGRA approved casino.

Even if Lucky Ace is a part of the 888 Group the way I understand eCOGRA's process of certifying casinos is to treat each one as a separate entity thus certifying each one seperately...

And if they are part of the 888 Group then 888 has responsibility here also as far as the players are concerned and also regarding the fact that Lucky Ace is using eCOGRA's site seal without being certified...JMO

 

[BLACKJACKBOY]

It doesnt say in their terms, that they can take the winnings, only the bonus.

Yet they are taking both. And terms that are unfair and being abused, are non inforcable under UK law. Plenty of grounds for a PAB in my opinion

Whats to lose by trying? Link Removed (invalid URL)

 

[RobWin]

Something else you guys should do is to take screenshots of the T's & C's before they have the chance to change them if they decide to...

and also put a time stamp on them !

 

[BLACKJACKBOY]

Fender, you're talking a big game here, but as a webmaster yourself what are you doing to achieve the goals you are so quick to accuse Max of neglecting?

BTW, I'm sure most of us would be happy to make an exception on the self-spamming protocol by allowing you to identify your website here - it may be interesting to see how you are handling this issue and how experienced you are in view of your comments here.

Edited to add that Nash makes a good point - there have been a number of Casinomeister FU interventions where robust persuasion has caused operators to reconsider sometimes hasty and unfair decisions.

I have seen Fender1 on one of the big bonus sites, Staff Moderator, if its the same guy. Going head to head with Paddypower over some issue as I recall, certainly seemed to know what he was doing. Perhaps its not my place to reveal this, edit out if neccessary

 

[maxd]

LATER: What follows is the original text of this post. As mentioned above I was barking up the wrong tree. Please see this post for the new improved take on this issue.
---------------

Plenty of grounds for a PAB in my opinion ....

Do you know what a PAB is? It is a form that contains the details of a player's complaint which we pass on to the casino with the intent that they will look at it and take the issue seriously.

Given that, what might the point of the umpteenth PAB wherein the player says, in effect, "the casino followed their Terms and Conditions and I don't like it" ?

The whole process depends on the casino's desire to maintain a good reputation, or at least avoid getting a bad one. Somehow I don't think this is foremost in the minds of the Lucky Ace people just now.

So, as much as I understand why you might think the aforementioned circumstances are ample reason for a PAB the practical realities of the situation may indicate otherwise.

 

[BLACKJACKBOY]

Can we get them because they are taking winnings as well as the bonuses. Their terms say they can take the bonus back, doesnt say they can touch the winnings.

Any good?

 

[aka23]

Bosh! Never condoned it in any way shape or form and still don't. As I've said over and over and over again, it is shabby behaviour and I'll do what I can to see that they are called out for it.

That said, a PAB is going nowhere if the casino can point to the Terms and say "it's in the Terms".

As far as I know the process hasn't changed. No one has said that LA's T&Cs are laudable and I will, as I have made clear many times throughout this debate, be making recommendations to Bryan that LA's (mis)handling of the players and unwillingness to even look at the PABs be awarded with the black flag that it deserves.

In other words willfully misinterpreting what's going on here and why is not really about some change in the way things are done at Casinomeister, it's about another agenda entirely the meaning and purpose of which I'm not about to speculate.

The last casino complaint event of this magnitude was with Fortune Lounge last year, as described at https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...yal-vegas-vegas-towers.16977/?highlight=rogue
. Thousands of players had their accounts locked. Many players had their winnings confiscated and deposit returned. Fortune Lounge said the players were bonus abusers, and because they are bonus abusers their T&C gives them the right to confiscate winnings. Bryan (Casinomeister) and eCOGRA both did not approve of this position. I recall Bryan posting something to the effect of multiple accounts, fake IDs, and similar violation of terms qualify as "bonus abuse", but simply playing with a bonus and winning does not qualify as "bonus abuse." Fortune Lounge was moved to the rogue pit until they eventually paid players with intervention of eCOGRA.

I think this event with Lucky Ace is being handled very differently. It's not acceptable for a casino to say winning with a bonus is "bonus abuse," and we are keeping winnings because our T&C forbids "bonus abuse." If their T&C forbids something specific like making a full-bankroll bet or playing a certain game, then they do have grounds for calling it "abuse." But with Lucky Ace, there is no such term.

 

[Roar]

And one last time I decline. Bantering the nuances of the wording in terms and conditions with a casino that has demonstrated that they are intent of wiping winnings off the books under the protection of those terms and conditions seem to me the world's most useless activity. Lawyers find such activities profitable because they get paid to do it, I don't and I won't.

It doesn't matter what "could" or "might" be derived from that wording. What matters is that they're using the T&Cs to justify their actions and there is no reason to believe that appealing to their higher linguistic sensibilities will change that.

Max since my post many others have chimed in as to the validity or otherwise of this particular FU T+Cs on which you have hung your hat.

I say "hung your hat" as we actually don't know if LA is relying on this particular T+C to deny "winnings".

Your resorting to this T+C in order to invalidate various PABs has Forum members here perplexed. You are being asked to fulfill the Watchdog Casino and Advocate role for which Casinomeister lays claim.

To assist you in this role members here are throwing you the keys to the vault (plus a jemmy bar and a stick of gelignite). You have more than enough tools at your disposal as a Player Advocate in this particular case. Please do the job.