If you requested play logs and were not acknowleged?

takethemoney

Banned User - Chargebacks at Slotastic
Joined
Apr 14, 2004
Location
Washington
Hi all.
At this point, I wish to throw something out for discussion. Let's say you decided, for once in your life, to be loyal to a particular casino, gave them lots of money, and played for a couple months, but there really weren't any returns. A bell goes off, once you realized how much you had wagered...you know the one that says "something totally stinks". Realizing that the operator can set the payouts on slots and VP on RTG casinos, you're really starting to feel something sinister.

So, you ask for a a spread sheet of your wagering....you know they keep them. They track players to a tee. So things stink and both email requests for these spread sheets or profit and loss statements go unanswered.

How would you feel? What would be your next step?

Right now the casino shall remain nameless.
 

TDTAT

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 7, 2006
Location
Gambleville
How would you feel? What would be your next step?

Right now the casino shall remain nameless.

I would feel angry. If it is a casino held in some
regard at CasinoMeister I would contact a mod
and ask them specifically. I would have also posted
the name as enquiring minds would love to know:lolup:
 

takethemoney

Banned User - Chargebacks at Slotastic
Joined
Apr 14, 2004
Location
Washington
I would feel angry. If it is a casino held in some
regard at CasinoMeister I would contact a mod
and ask them specifically. I would have also posted
the name as enquiring minds would love to know:lolup:

Can't do that right now. I'm sure you want to know, but posting who it is would not help my case HERE.

I will add, logs can be analyzed and I have a synopsis which is only in my mind, so I want to see what the logs reveal, but if they reveal what I'm even close to, then this place runs a bad joint.

It is still possible, however to look good at the end of the month, boasting an industry acceptable percentage.

Here is how they do it:

Let's say on a normal day they get a few regulars, game stays at the norm..but on tuesday night, the freebie crowd comes in. Well, George, we'll just crank the bonus hunters down to about 60%. Wednesday, game goes back to the normal payout, but Joe seems to be getting a bit hot for us on the Cleopatra. So, let's change the payout down to 80%.

So, Thursday night rolls around, manager notices some of his regulars...so he cranks up the pay a bit...hell, let's pay VP 110% this night.

Friday, high roller, never win anythings come around, betting big, they don't care. They never win anything anyway, so let's pay them 85%.

My point is, odds should never be variable, but they are.
 

TDTAT

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 7, 2006
Location
Gambleville
Can't do that right now. I'm sure you want to know, but posting who it is would not help my case HERE.

Yes, you are smart for that!!

Maybe the emails went to some support
person and they are trying to compile the data
or something? The email could be floating around
from department to department with no one
knowing who is supposed to answer or what to say?:lolup:

Optomistic, but possible:D
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Can't do that right now. I'm sure you want to know, but posting who it is would not help my case HERE.

I will add, logs can be analyzed and I have a synopsis which is only in my mind, so I want to see what the logs reveal, but if they reveal what I'm even close to, then this place runs a bad joint.

It is still possible, however to look good at the end of the month, boasting an industry acceptable percentage.

Here is how they do it:

Let's say on a normal day they get a few regulars, game stays at the norm..but on tuesday night, the freebie crowd comes in. Well, George, we'll just crank the bonus hunters down to about 60%. Wednesday, game goes back to the normal payout, but Joe seems to be getting a bit hot for us on the Cleopatra. So, let's change the payout down to 80%.

So, Thursday night rolls around, manager notices some of his regulars...so he cranks up the pay a bit...hell, let's pay VP 110% this night.

Friday, high roller, never win anythings come around, betting big, they don't care. They never win anything anyway, so let's pay them 85%.

My point is, odds should never be variable, but they are.

Well, we have admissions from previous RTG employees that this is EXACTLY what they did, provided one can believe them. We also have been told that RTG does not have the ability to micromanage at such a detailed level, but could certainly alter the odds for a specific period, such as the evening when they chuck out all the freebies to draw in the bonus hunters.
There is, however, casino software that CAN manage the payouts for individual players, but this is done automatically by the operator setting parameters to control how much an individual player is allowed to receive in payouts. If the player exceeds the target, the software is designed to discard the winning result, and request further results from the RNG until one that is within target is produced. These softwares are listed under "Rogue Software", and include such brands as Cassinova, Start-your-own-casino, Elka systems, and more.
 

RobWin

closed account
Joined
Apr 24, 2004
Location
A Vault!
takethemoney, are you actually talking about an RTG casino or just using RTG as an example ? I'm not asking you to name the casino...just the software if you can...
 

TDTAT

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 7, 2006
Location
Gambleville
takethemoney, are you actually talking about an RTG casino or just using RTG as an example ? I'm not asking you to name the casino...just the software if you can...

I saw Cleopatra and assumed Rival, But RTG
has a slot with that name too I guess:oops:
 

Mousey

Ueber Meister Mouse
Joined
Sep 12, 2004
Location
Up$hitCreek
It should not be like pulling teeth just to get a copy of your play logs. Sometimes, it does take time, but some sort of "we're working on it" email from the casino would be nice. If you haven't done so, check to see if there's a casino rep here at Casinomeister. Please contact him/her via PM. It is the weekend so allow some breathing room for a reply. :)

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/groups/

For the noobs... sometimes it's not easy to find the rep in that long list. Once on the Casino Contact page, go to the top of your web browser, click "Edit", then "Find on this page". Type in all or part of the casino name, then click "Find Next".

Good luck. :thumbsup:
 

RobWin

closed account
Joined
Apr 24, 2004
Location
A Vault!
For the noobs... sometimes it's not easy to find the rep in that long list. Once on the Casino Contact page, go to the top of your web browser, click "Edit", then "Find on this page". Type in all or part of the casino name, then click "Find Next".

Good luck. :thumbsup:

That's good advice there Mousey, a lot of folks tend to forget about or don't even know about that handy little page search feature...:thumbsup:
 

SlotsWizard

Dormant account
Joined
May 11, 2006
Location
North of Antarctica
Unless the software is rigged, you can determine the payback of a video poker game by looking at the paytable. I don't think RTG operators have the ability to rig video poker so that the same paytable is used but crap hands will always be dealt. If so, that would be an enormous blow to the industry.

Slots are a different matter, where they can keep the same paytable but adjust the reel layouts to change the long-term payback without any player being the wiser. Since each software provider designed their own slot games and reel layouts, only they truly know how they operate and how much they theoretically pay back in the long run. Slots are a leap of faith whereas video poker, assuming that the cards are dealt fairly, is not. With video poker you can determine whether or not the games are rigged, with slots you cannot.

If you were playing at an accredited or well-respected casino, try emailing them again. Sometimes emails appear to get lost in the shuffle.

If the amount of data you are requesting from them is from a large amount of gameplay, they may end up sending you a summary instead as game logs can get pretty large fairly quickly.
 

takethemoney

Banned User - Chargebacks at Slotastic
Joined
Apr 14, 2004
Location
Washington
Info came back, but no game logs.
"I can assure you that we have not changed the payout percentages on any of our games. I have reviewed your account and can see that your overall payouts are indeed low at 91.5%, and below the theoretical odds for the games. This result is mainly from the Real Series games, as your payout percentage on Blackjack for example is 98% (Which I played very little)

I went thru almost $100k of play at the particular casino. My deposits were about$6000. I played mostly $1 per spin, but there were a few sessions of $2 and $5.

Run as fast as you can from RTG slots. Accedited casino would not give me the game logs. I can now see why.

Accredited should have no indication of fairness of games, only whether you get paid, because the best and fastest paying casinos, frankly, have odds that stink.

Also, managers there do not get back to you in a timely manner, even though their puppets say they will.
 

elscrabinda

Full Member
PABnoaccred
PABnorogue
Joined
Oct 20, 2004
Location
Oxford
Why wont they give you the logs? If they have point blank refused you might as well tell us who they are.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Unless the software is rigged, you can determine the payback of a video poker game by looking at the paytable. I don't think RTG operators have the ability to rig video poker so that the same paytable is used but crap hands will always be dealt. If so, that would be an enormous blow to the industry.

Slots are a different matter, where they can keep the same paytable but adjust the reel layouts to change the long-term payback without any player being the wiser. Since each software provider designed their own slot games and reel layouts, only they truly know how they operate and how much they theoretically pay back in the long run. Slots are a leap of faith whereas video poker, assuming that the cards are dealt fairly, is not. With video poker you can determine whether or not the games are rigged, with slots you cannot.

If you were playing at an accredited or well-respected casino, try emailing them again. Sometimes emails appear to get lost in the shuffle.

If the amount of data you are requesting from them is from a large amount of gameplay, they may end up sending you a summary instead as game logs can get pretty large fairly quickly.

I have played at a small number of RTG casinos, and have noticed that the payouts of the card games are determined by the paytables on offer. One RTG offered 3 card poker at full pay (as in Microgaming), but I noticed that at others they used a lower paytable, not the 40/30 of MG, but something like 35/25 on the pair plus (or similar variant), and/or a reduction in the ante bonus for the top hands.
It is likey that the video poker has small variations that affect the overall payout, such as reducing the payout for Full House and Flush on Jacks or Better. The theoretical payouts can be calculated from these paytables.
While we cannot directly determine the payout on the slots, what CAN be done is to calculate the theoretical return from the many table games and video poker variants. This should give an indication of how "tight" an RTG casino is overall, as management are likely to have an across the board policy.
This would either be lots of bonuses & tight games, or less bonus offers but looser games. Naturally, there will be a few that have few bonuses and tight games.
If running a long series of spins on a real series slot, an allowance of 1% of total wagers should be allowed as the contribution to the random jackpot. This should be added to your return to get a figure close to the total payout, although a pretty big sample is needed.


This problem with playlogs could easily be solved by allowing players to simply DOWNLOAD their own, this would leave PLAYERS doing all the work, and not casino support. I suspect such requests take time, and support probably regard such queries as low priority, especially if players are wanting everything to put into a spreadsheet.
With software such as Microgaming, the last 21 days are available for the player to view, so making a download option should not be a problem - I don't accept the argument of "bandwidth", since they have to be "downloaded" to the player's browser for viewing, and it is more strain on their servers if players use multiple queries and cut & paste to get the data than if they went for an entire session with one query, and saved it as a CSV file.
Most online banks can manage this, although a few are lacking in this respect.
 

chuchu59

gambling addict
PABnonaccred
CAG
Joined
Sep 26, 2004
Location
SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
Info came back, but no game logs.
"I can assure you that we have not changed the payout percentages on any of our games. I have reviewed your account and can see that your overall payouts are indeed low at 91.5%, and below the theoretical odds for the games. This result is mainly from the Real Series games, as your payout percentage on Blackjack for example is 98% (Which I played very little)

I went thru almost $100k of play at the particular casino. My deposits were about$6000. I played mostly $1 per spin, but there were a few sessions of $2 and $5.

Run as fast as you can from RTG slots. Accedited casino would not give me the game logs. I can now see why.

Accredited should have no indication of fairness of games, only whether you get paid, because the best and fastest paying casinos, frankly, have odds that stink.

Also, managers there do not get back to you in a timely manner, even though their puppets say they will.

This is ridiculous. The assurance that there is fair play bears no creditibility if they wont even supply you with the game logs. Since they admit that the overall payouts are low they should let you have the logs unless there is something seriously wrong and that this could be used for comparison with the game logs of other players.
 

TDTAT

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 7, 2006
Location
Gambleville
This is ridiculous. The assurance that there is fair play bears no creditibility if they wont even supply you with the game logs. Since they admit that the overall payouts are low they should let you have the logs unless there is something seriously wrong and that this could be used for comparison with the game logs of other players.

If they are an accredited RTG casino at Casino Meister..
it is a short list. Unless I am mistaken all recommended RTGs
at this site have a rep here at Casino Meister. I am pretty sure
one of those reps would get your player logs after reading this thread :lolup:
 
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