ID & Documents

[lanidar]

If casinos are so bloody conserned about being ripped of, then why don't all new accounts get locked upfront until proper ID check is done? They have NO problems accepting $1000 when some new player deposits, but when the same player tries to withdraw the $1000 he is suddenly an evil person trying to stiff the casino until he proves otherwise.

GOOD QUESTION!
But, I think we ALL know the answer to that one.
They want to hold on to YOUR

 

[jpm]

I believe Ted was saying you could take your already established neteller account and while being a US resident, sign up at 32Red and give them a false address in England but use your already established & certified neteller account to make your deposit. Since the casino doesn't verify your mailing address with neteller, just your email address, this could work until you have to send ID verification to the casino and they find out your are a US resident.

 

[lanidar]

I believe Ted was saying you could take your already established neteller account and while being a US resident, sign up at 32Red and give them a false address in England but use your already established & certified neteller account to make your deposit. Since the casino doesn't verify your mailing address with neteller, just your email address, this could work until you have to send ID verification to the casino and they find out your are a US resident.

But my IP, when I register at 32red, will show a U.S. IP and not one from Europe. I believe that is correct.

 

[jpm]

It will if they bother to check it thru ARIN or some other method. Its not like an area code that you can tell by looking at it, it would take some checking to see where it resolves to and even that isn't 100% conclusive of your location.

 

[Simmo!]

Plus you can easily link out thru an anonymous proxy server anyway...

 

[lanidar]

It will if they bother to check it thru ARIN or some other method. Its not like an area code that you can tell by looking at it, it would take some checking to see where it resolves to and even that isn't 100% conclusive of your location.

If they are so concerned about security...then they should go through the trouble of checking the IP.
Also, false ID's ie: drivers licences, are VERY easy to forge. So are utility bills.
Unless they call you back, which would seem like an awful lot of trouble to go through with the possibilty of hundreds of players, may be the only way to be sure where the individual is located.

Look, what I'm trying to do is protect myself from strangers getting info that could do my credit a great deal of harm.
The casino wants to protect themselves from players that are not permitted to play at their casino...then check the IP...call the player....or what ever they need to do short of asking for my personal info.
This is how I feel.

 

[Simmo!]

Look, what I'm trying to do is protect myself from strangers getting info that could do my credit a great deal of harm.
The casino wants to protect themselves from players that are not permitted to play at their casino...then check the IP...call the player....or what ever they need to do short of asking for my personal info.
This is how I feel.

There's nothing wrong with that Lanidar - I think in the past i've felt that a casino took way to long to pay me using ID as a reason. But I can see Ted's point that docs may need to be checked. As long as its up-front, at the right time and quick, then there is an argument for it. But IP isn't conclusive.

 

[lanidar]

But IP isn't conclusive

Simmo...my friend...
If the casino wants to protect themselves from players that are not permitted to play at their casino...
then check the IP...
call the player....
or what ever they need to do short of asking for my personal info.
This is how I feel.

 

[Sodax77]

Well... i know, that e.g. Scandinavian countries use different id-system, than many other countries. Quite high standards here.

But anyway, is those casinos who don't ask any id-proof from me, stupid or what?

Yes, those casinos have good reputation, so maybe they trust players... and i think, they pay (if everything seems right in their databse) because they know, that you come back!!!

Or what you think? If Casino X pay you after 3 months and after 2400 excuses and after you sent 50 times your fax back form, or other ID-proofs! Or maybe they don't pay at all...because you make some weird mistake in their rules. Do you play there again?

While Casino Z pay you in few hours, or minutes, and don't ask any ID's, because their databse tell that everything is ok (or they accept your ID in few hours, because everything seems ok), do you play there again?

I choose Casino Z

Ok, like i say, that's why i ask all possible questions before i deposit to new casino... So i avoid any confuse, etc.

Btw, many player don't contact new casino, don't ask anything, or don't care... they just deposit.... and they contact to casino, after they have problems with withdraws, etc...

 

[nafanny29]

With regard to IP address I believe anyone using AOL even from the UK has a USA IP address that changes everytime you log on (I think).

This would make checking IP addresses useless.

I still think the ECash PINS that BM and crypto send out go a long way in stopping fraud and I have never been asked for ID by one of their casinos

 

[lanidar]

With regard to IP address I believe anyone using AOL even from the UK has a USA IP address that changes everytime you log on (I think).

That may very well be. But, I've encountered another time when my IP showed I was from Europe and, as I said I'm in New Jersey.
I don't have all the answers.
As I mentioned in a previous post...This is MY opinion and this is how I feel.

 

[Sodax77]

With regard to IP address I believe anyone using AOL even from the UK has a USA IP address that changes everytime you log on (I think).

This would make checking IP addresses useless.

Yes anyone (including: Casinos, Neteller, whoever) can check your IP whenever they want, like i can check different IP's as well.

And yes many people don't use dynamic IP, so they get new IP-address, after they reboot computer/change manually their IP-address/etc.

But example Casinomeister see my IP and ISP, after every post,
But if i want, i can use some proxy-server/program, or No-IP-service (like proxy) and hide my real IP/ISP.

But many basic user don't try to hide or change their real IP or/and ISP.

Actually i don't know much about IP and ISP, but sometimes i use my firewall BackTrace-funtion, when my firewall alert me.

I still think the ECash PINS that BM and crypto send out go a long way in stopping fraud and I have never been asked for ID by one of their casinos

I agree this.

 

[Petunia]

".. they are so concerned about security...then they should go through the trouble of checking the IP"

... and to add to everything everyone else had to say about ip's. If you use a proxy (like most isp's do) you will find that you can actually make the mistake of banning a player because they use the same ISP and their IP looks the same.

Also, would us as players not be thoroughly PEEVED (the milder version of POFF) if you find that your family member decided to borrow money from your casino account, and cash out without having to show ID. WHO are you going to blame then?

It is difficult, on both sides. I like the idea of keeping a record of ID's. Fraud is everywhere, from both sides. There are no perfect systems, and as the old saying goes.................
YOu cannot please everyone!

 

[Ed Ware]

Interesting topic going here. I hope I can be of some assistance!

Of course I cannot speak on behalf of other Casinos, but I can tell you that at 32Red each and every new account opened is reviewed here by a real live person, always within a couple of hours. Not only does this serve to authenticate players, but it's also the first step in a process that enables us to form a relationship with our players, and in part helping us to deliver the type of service we believe people are looking for.

We conduct a number of checks both manually and with the use of software. High up on the list of checks is the location of the player which we do using fairly sophisticated technology looking at IP information. At the moment, a player joining and identified as having a US IP address will be informed of our current policy and have their account closed (and any funds returned).

There are number of other tools at every Internet company's disposal which can be used to verify the identity and location of a potential customer. We set the bar quite high so that those players who we know are who they say they are can benefit from a streamlined service with no hiccups (like ID requests).

Away from players with electronic wallets (such as Neteller), we benefit from a very secure and informative card processing gateway. This is thanks to TrustMarque providing our payments solutions in tandem with our card processors, BarclayCard. Whilst helping us to guard against the unfortunate threat of the criminal element on the Internet, more importantly it allows us to pay our players quickly, without hassle, and in unlimited amounts to any type of card (local banking regulations permitting).

As a footnote, I would add that we have taken steps to identify ourselves to our players. We have done this for a number of obvious reasons, not least of which is that if we expect you to provide a level of detail about yourself when signing up then surely we should do the same as a mark of mutual respect?

Hopefully this is a helpful contribution to the current discussion.

Regards to all

Ed Ware
32Red

 

[padanian]

Interesting topic going here. I hope I can be of some assistance!

Of course I cannot speak on behalf of other Casinos, but I can tell you that at 32Red each and every new account opened is reviewed here by a real live person, always within a couple of hours. Not only does this serve to authenticate players, but it's also the first step in a process that enables us to form a relationship with our players, and in part helping us to deliver the type of service we believe people are looking for.

We conduct a number of checks both manually and with the use of software. High up on the list of checks is the location of the player which we do using fairly sophisticated technology looking at IP information. At the moment, a player joining and identified as having a US IP address will be informed of our current policy and have their account closed (and any funds returned).

There are number of other tools at every Internet company's disposal which can be used to verify the identity and location of a potential customer. We set the bar quite high so that those players who we know are who they say they are can benefit from a streamlined service with no hiccups (like ID requests).

Away from players with electronic wallets (such as Neteller), we benefit from a very secure and informative card processing gateway. This is thanks to TrustMarque providing our payments solutions in tandem with our card processors, BarclayCard. Whilst helping us to guard against the unfortunate threat of the criminal element on the Internet, more importantly it allows us to pay our players quickly, without hassle, and in unlimited amounts to any type of card (local banking regulations permitting).

As a footnote, I would add that we have taken steps to identify ourselves to our players. We have done this for a number of obvious reasons, not least of which is that if we expect you to provide a level of detail about yourself when signing up then surely we should do the same as a mark of mutual respect?

Hopefully this is a helpful contribution to the current discussion.

Regards to all

Ed Ware
32Red

For sure 32Red is the casino that offers the greataest service around.
Concerning IP, I would like to share my experience. I live in Ireland but am a resident of Italy. So the most of the times I play using an IP that is not compatible with my registration details. Some casinos do not care, while other ones just lock your account with no explanation (and if this happens I just delete them). 32Red had a very great approach in this issue:they sent a kind mail ansking for the reason of this, I replied and everything was ok for the both of us. Not a very special thing, just logical.
They should be followed like an example in the industry.

 

[Petunia]

Interesting topic going here. I hope I can be of some assistance!

Of course I cannot speak on behalf of other Casinos, ...

We conduct a number of checks both manually and with the use of software. High up on the list of checks is the location of the player which we do using fairly sophisticated technology looking at IP information.

There are number of other tools at every Internet company's disposal which can be used to verify the identity and location of a potential customer. We set the bar quite high so that those players who we know are who they say they are can benefit from a streamlined service with no hiccups (like ID requests).



Dear Ed,
I for one am very happy to hear that you are making such effort. I don't know much about your casino, or the operations of it but I do want to ask a few things of you directly.(hehe.. sorry, ex journo here.... !! *grin*)

1) Are you saying that all casino companies have the possible means and ability to check these things beforehand and not make the players jump through hoops?
2) Do you think you will be able to keep up with this 'one on one' process once you open your doors to the US players? (Article posted in Industry section)
3) What exactly are you checking?
4) Is there a secret that you can actually post to the other casinos... like
"The customer is always right" Principle? *grinning*
5) What is your personal phylosophy on service?

Truly, don't feel you HAVE to answer... sometimes I just CANNOT help myself! *sigh*

 

[nafanny29]

For sure 32Red is the casino that offers the greataest service around.
Concerning IP, I would like to share my experience. I live in Ireland but am a resident of Italy. So the most of the times I play using an IP that is not compatible with my registration details. Some casinos do not care, while other ones just lock your account with no explanation (and if this happens I just delete them). 32Red had a very great approach in this issue:they sent a kind mail ansking for the reason of this, I replied and everything was ok for the both of us. Not a very special thing, just logical.
They should be followed like an example in the industry.

I use AOL and my IP address changes every time I log on but AOL always uses a USA IP address yet I have never had any casino query my IP ever and I live in UK!!

I dont think IP address is very improtant in fraud detection but I guess it can help when a casino suspects someone or finds other anomalies with a players account.

 

[Simmo!]

We conduct a number of checks both manually and with the use of software. High up on the list of checks is the location of the player which we do using fairly sophisticated technology looking at IP information. At the moment, a player joining and identified as having a US IP address will be informed of our current policy and have their account closed (and any funds returned).

Thanks Ed. I'm surprised that IP plays such an important part to be honest. Anonymous proxy servers are rife and i would have thought that alone would ensure further checks are necessary.

Using mobile telphony strikes me as an obvious one. Were a casino to text a message to the new player's mobile that required them to respond (say with their account ID), this would a) ensure they were who they said they were and b) were where they said they were - the cellphone number could be traced to a country after all. A mate of mine provides a reduced-rate bulk-text service like this to a number of businesses (text alerts, text-backs etc) and it just seems to make sense.

Cheers

Simmo!

 

[Sodax77]

...Using mobile telphony strikes me as an obvious one. Were a casino to text a message to the new player's mobile that required them to respond (say with their account ID), this would a) ensure they were who they said they were and b) were where they said they were - the cellphone number could be traced to a country after all. A mate of mine provides a reduced-rate bulk-text service like this to a number of businesses (text alerts, text-backs etc) and it just seems to make sense.

Cheers

Simmo!

No.

My country code is +358, but i can take my mobile phone example to UK, Or US, so my mobile phone number still start +358, but i pay bills to Finland
(almost all new mobile phone models support 900/1800, 1900, etc standards)

 

[Simmo!]

No.

My country code is +358, but i can take my mobile phone example to UK, Or US, so my mobile phone number still start +358, but i pay bills to Finland
(almost all new mobile phone models support 900/1800, 1900, etc standards)

But you'd still be a Finnish resident "visiting" the US wouldn't you? The US authorities can't stop you connecting from your laptop via your Finnish ISP to the web. IP would be Finnish even though you are in currently in the US.

I guess the question here is: would a casino be breaking the law allowing one of their legitimate authorised players play at the casino from inside a restricted territory while abroad?

If the answer is "yes", then telephony is not the answer. If the answer is "no", then it could be.

 

[Sodax77]

....Fraud is everywhere, from both sides. There are no perfect systems, and as the old saying goes.................
YOu cannot please everyone!

Yes,

That's why you have to write/know/show your
user name/password/PIN/ID's/etc
(examples: )
-When you logged Here (forum)
-When you logged to your E-mail service
-When you logged in to your Casino account
-When you use ATM-machine
-When you logged in to NETeller account
-When you transfer money via NETeller
-When you open your Mobile Phone
-When you close your home security system
-When you logged in to your Win XP (admin)
etc...
etc...



edit: of course you can use "remember my user name", "Password", etc with your own risk (i.e when you logged in to your casino account)

 

[Petunia]

SodaX,

I had to give my bank manager everything short of a urine and DNA sample to GET MY money, MY SALARY that I WORKED for out of HIS bank.....


it is called *LIFE*

 

[Sodax77]

But you'd still be a Finnish resident "visiting" the US wouldn't you?...

Yes, but... about Mobile phone...

I think, if i take my mobile phone to (example) US, then i roaming via some US phone company, and this US company get money from my Finnish phone company.

 

[Sodax77]

SodaX,

...and DNA sample

Is this joke?

Yes or no... our laws deny this.

Maybe soon online casinos need our DNA samples

 

[Ed Ware]

Padanian

Thanks for sharing your experience with 32Red and I am glad we did deliver the type of support we are aiming for.

Petunia

Thanks for your feedback and questions! Firstly, I should say that as a woman living in London I am depressed that you haven't heard of 32Red!! Our Marketing Department is in for a hard time, LOL!

Thanks for giving me an "out", but your questions very much deserve a response....

1. No, I wouldn't go that far but some companies have an undoubted advantage over others because they have excellent credentials and are able to form partnerships with helpful organisations like the Institutional Banks (who can help merchants with security issues). I am glad to say that this group includes 32Red, thus allowing us to remove so-called "hoops". Petunia, if you are in the UK and have a UK bank account, then you shouldn't be subject to your casino making things difficult for you, and I hope they are not.

2. Short answer is yes. We've provided a good level of support in the past to American players and we will do so again IF we re-open our doors to US players.

3. I am going to be difficult on this one (as you may expect!). I consider some of the processes we undertake to be of a competitive nature and so I cannot spell out what they are. I imagine they are not impossible to guess with some knowledge of resources and requirements.

4. LOL. All I can say is that a search for 32Red on this forum and perhaps at WOL will yield plenty of evidence from genuine players making unsolicited remarks and comments about our service.

5. What an invitation to employ some clichs! Seriously, I'd start with the following but could go on ad infinitum:

--treat others how you would expect to be treated yourself

--offer fair and reliable games

--if a player has asked to be paid, then pay them immediately and don't keep them hanging on for days on end!

--a reported problem from a player may not be your fault (it may not actually exist), but take responsibility for it so the customer knows it is being dealt with. And deal with it!

I'll stop there. Thanks for the opportunity to answer your excellent questions.

Nafanny29

Good point. AOL does cause a number of issues because of the US IP thing. However, if you are playing with the right UK Casinos (and I imagine you are), then they can easily overcome this and no doubt have.

Cheers Simmo

I think for the time being an IP address look-up will be at least the first port of call. As I mentioned earlier, there are other tools at our disposal which we frequently use when a player's profile contains particular aspects.

Re using SMS, that's an interesting spin on something often looked at purely from a marketing perspective. If you don't mind Simmo, I am going to float this past our Security Manager. Nice one!

As ever an enlightening and thought provoking exchange of views. Thanks for listening.

Cheers

Ed Ware
32Red