how slots work, what do you guys think?

[hippo925]

My biggest concern with all online software platforms (not slots which are a different animal to me) and I also believe the word you may be looking for Hippo is "correlated" or simply the old simple programming language IF...,THEN.....,I have verified with a software engineer (he claims) for online casinos that it would be very simple to do despite those that claim to the contrary (those with a vested interest in the industry for the most part). ....My final conclusion, all serious play at B & M's!

yes nash, i was told the same thing that basically anything is possible to program within a set parameter.

lojo, the igt article is really interesting. i actually read that before, but for some reason i didn't recognize the info on the bonuses... i must have missed it before. thanks!

and mousey, trust me, i'm no math genius either, lol. the week's box is interesting to me because, remember, Week designed it for slot machines! it was used for keno later, but doesn't that mean it worked for slots too?

the confusing part for me is this: let's say i knew the seed, the algorythm, everything. how do i (or a computer in my pocket) press the button at the exact miliisecond if the RNG is continously calculating. in the keno fraud, they predicted the numbers from previous results, but if the RNG is spinning through the numbers lightning fast, how would it matter?

in the series 4-3-2-1-7-8.... even if i KNOW 7 (a jackpot) comes after 1, how do i press the button at 7 if the RNG is going through these numbers a thousand times a second?

anyone following me? i haven't been drinking

 

[lojo]

You don't/can't, etc. It takes about a year for the 'cycle' to complete, can be reseeded at any time, and creates over 100 combinations per second! I can look for the particulars at casinocitytimes if you'd like... I should have the link archived anyway.

edit: I'm only referring to B&M's there isn't really any info available, that I know of, for online processes. You could get 'own your own casino' crack it, and publish it open source

 

[Mousey]

oopsy... two, two, two posts in one! ....

 

[Mousey]

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, re: Harris, Weeks, keno, slots, etc. If nothing else, it might provide more ideas for further googling.

And I agree w/Lojo... I really have no idea whether anything that applies to B&M games has even the slightest relation to online casino software.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

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, re: Harris, Weeks, keno, slots, etc. If nothing else, it might provide more ideas for further googling.

And I agree w/Lojo... I really have no idea whether anything that applies to B&M games has even the slightest relation to online casino software.

Unless you happen to be be playing a continuous shuffle machine of B&M BJ (and most casinos tried to pull that-CSM'S-off on a few tables and realized it was not going to fly), then you have to know the online "random shuffle" of BJ does not apply at a B&M. (Assuming Mousey you were speaking of all games and not just slots,ftr)

 

[bb28]

This thread has been an interesting read......indeed.

 

[Mousey]

Unless you happen to be be playing a continuous shuffle machine of B&M BJ (and most casinos tried to pull that-CSM'S-off on a few tables and realized it was not going to fly), then you have to know the online "random shuffle" of BJ does not apply at a B&M. (Assuming Mousey you were speaking of all games and not just slots,ftr)

Sorry, I should have clarified... I was referring to B&M games that have RNG vs. the same type online games (slots, VP, etc. -- in other words, machines). BJ (and other card games) is a totally different animal as a computer RNG should have nothing to do with B&M card shuffler.

FTR... Hubby got the 'creeps' whenever he (rarely) played BJ online. He won't touch it anymore. No, we have no 'proof'. We only know it just doesn't play like the same game.

And I am NOT saying online BJ is rigged, I'm only saying it just doesn't feel right to me. Rather like showering w/my socks on, the end result may be acceptably the same, but getting there just doesn't feel right.

 

[lojo]

I get the distinct 'feeling' when playing online card games that it creates a 'result' that is statistically random, not that it is a process that produces random results. Does that make sense? Because I would stake my gut, not my mind on this question. It just doesn't feel 'right'.

 

[peteyweestro]

you really notice how unrandom the numbers seem to be sometimes when playing one of my fav games on mg...poker pursuit

 

[steinhaug]

but here's an important point: IF slots work in cycles, whether one big one (a machine with lots of lines) or a bunch of small ones, AND no one purposely messes with it.... isn't it still gonna be pretty random for any of us that play? i mean, does it really matter HOW a slot is programmed as long as no one who plays it knows any more than anyone else?

True... Unless... Say the system is aware of good and bad portions of the cycle. Say after a win you will be served bad portions of the cycle until you lost your way back to 90% payout - then are served a good portion again? This is my MG theory. Anyways.

the real issue is if a slot can have multiple algorithyms for things like different bet sizes, country of origin, bonus user, etc.... that's the part that scares me, though i don't think i have seen obvious signs of that in all the years i've played slots.

It's quite known that lowest bet size will give many more lower wins - while max bet will give fewer low wins but higher ones. Several online sites, and documentaries on casinoes and sllots confirms this. (Not to say own gameplay) This has been discussed several times before aswell.

I get the distinct 'feeling' when playing online card games that it creates a 'result' that is statistically random, not that it is a process that produces random results. Does that make sense? Because I would stake my gut, not my mind on this question. It just doesn't feel 'right'.

You don't say... I think the MG BJ is a slot like everything else, except that the spin is shown with cards instead.

 

[lojo]

Hippo, I wasn't able to find the cct article that specifically denotes the number of generations in a 'cycle' and how many generations per second, etc. but

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is a list of good articles to peruse. The only item I take exception to in all of their information is that they repeatedly state that it 'is illegal for Nevada slot machines to vary payback per coin size' whereas NGC rule # 101 states:

... and for slot machines which have a difference in theoretical hold percentage which exceeds 4 percent for a single-coin play
versus maximum-bet play...

 

[Mousey]

...... The only item I take exception to in all of their information is that they repeatedly state that it 'is illegal for Nevada slot machines to vary payback per coin size' whereas NGC rule # 101 states:

Lojo... have you access to a magazine called Strictly Slots? Month after month they list payback percentages for slots (by denom) in Nevada, AC, etc. Just thought you'd find it interesting.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Also, I must add. One of the companies here in town made alot of headlines in the local press here. What they did was the following.

They had slots in thir office, sat wagering wagering wagering until they got the jackpot, then they put the slots out again for others to play... Oh they made money this way, since the machines ate huge money back! They also got some bad press out of it since this man wasn't excactly a nice guy.

They could easily do this, since they was informed about the cycles and such from their slot, and since two jackpots do not occure within the same cycle.

Another one, tihs is funny! Have you ever heard of the times the machines have a bug which can be manipulated? So that you get a sure win all the time, happends on new slots! I myself have emptied slots this way.

But here is the kicker - when you have done this, have you ever played on the slot afterwards not using the trick? Loooser, you will not win shit!
I wonder why!

Again, knowing all this - hence my belief on online slots. Since noone else is fair, I doubt the online ones are. What count's in the end is the payout % - this is the numbers being served to the public and this is what is looked at as fair play! Aslong as you get that % you should smile and be happy - it's all good.

Probably made for export, here in the UK by Barcrest

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Lojo... have you access to a magazine called Strictly Slots? Month after month they list payback percentages for slots (by denom) in Nevada, AC, etc. Just thought you'd find it interesting.

So does it's more widely circulated sister magazine "Casino Player". May be able to find the monthly list(s) Mousey refers to at www.casinocenter.com, the higher the denomination,the higher the payback percentage across the board regardless of location (State).

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Hippo, I wasn't able to find the cct article that specifically denotes the number of generations in a 'cycle' and how many generations per second, etc. but

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is a list of good articles to peruse. The only item I take exception to in all of their information is that they repeatedly state that it 'is illegal for Nevada slot machines to vary payback per coin size' whereas NGC rule # 101 states:

Lojo... have you access to a magazine called Strictly Slots? Month after month they list payback percentages for slots (by denom) in Nevada, AC, etc.Just thought you'd find it interesting.

So does it's more widely circulated sister magazine "Casino Player". May be able to find the monthly list(s) Mousey refers to at www.casinocenter.com, the higher the denomination,the higher the payback percentage across the board regardless of location (State).

An example from the October 2006 issue for the State of Nevada

 

[lojo]

YAY!!! so... just have deep pockets, find one of the eighteen $25 machines downtown LV and get 103% I like that info

But I was referring to increasing bet size... say from .01 a line to .25 per line on a multi-denom machine.

But those charts and the resources you guys pointed to are excellent references, thank you.

 

[steinhaug]

What I never can get my head around (trick question), given the machines are so "random" - and do not balance the payout.

What if, a $25 machine, most player wager low all the time, and some smuck gets that lucky jackpot spin on max wager? Wouldnt the payout that month be like 3000% on that machine? I never see that!

Or, more likely! Lots of high rollers, and some smuck on minimum bet misses the jackpot? Shouldnt the payout be very low? Say 60% or so?

You never see that either, you see it in the 90% range all the time it seems. I sure missed a few jackpots in my life, however I am pretty sure I didn't "skew" the overall payout for that machine!

 

[brianzz]

Most high limit machines are 1 or 2 coins and don't offer much of a bonus for hitting the top pay. No video machines offer extra credits for hitting the top pay at max coins.

The numbers reflected on those type of reports are average coin in/coin out from day 1 of the month till day 30 of the month. So you could have 20 $25 machines that pay 40% of whats played into them and 5 that pay 300% of whats played into them you'll get the average of 92%

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

Occam's Razor

With respect to:

IF slots work in cycles, whether one big one (a machine with lots of lines) or a bunch of small ones, AND no one purposely messes with it.... isn't it still gonna be pretty random for any of us that play?

i mean, does it really matter HOW a slot is programmed as long as no one who plays it knows any more than anyone else?

It is much easier to program a slot to be random than to program it to progress through a predetermined but very large cycle. Especially since, if this cycle is ever discovered, the integrity of the slot, the company that created the slot, and the casino that offers it will be compromized.

the real issue is if a slot can have multiple algorithyms for things like different bet sizes, country of origin, bonus user, etc.... that's the part that scares me

Occam's razor (I quote from Wikipedia) states: "the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory."

This is the correct way to view slots. The assumption that there is added complexity that purposely discriminates against certain players or forces the slot to behave in specified ways at specified times is a big one.

It requires far fewer assumptions to view slots as behaving randomly. That is how the casinos view them, that is how the game developers view them, that is how the programmers write them, and that is how they behave in practice.

There is just too much money to be made by offering fair and random slots to add any other "features" to the random number generation.

--Eliot

 

[steinhaug]

It is much easier to program a slot to be random than to program it to progress through a predetermined but very large cycle. Especially since, if this cycle is ever discovered, the integrity of the slot, the company that created the slot, and the casino that offers it will be compromized.

Sure, however if the point is to ensure profit you would go the extra mile. Programming a "random" cycle which is random in every cycle, however predictable in the way that the software can take advantage of good and bad cycles is very easy. In the end the total payout will also be 95% (or what you want it to be) and the accountants will be happy, stats will look great and everything.

As a software developer I can inform you this is very easy. Nobody says each cycle is identical, nobody says a cycle is even predictable. What is merely the case is that a cycle should in the end have 95% payout. This my friend, is an entirely different approach - the outcome will still look purely random at _all_ times whatever way you look at it since you can always add some spins to even the odds.

 

[steinhaug]

....

 

[brianzz]

Everyone keeps saying cycle, a cycle on a slot machine is defined as the time it takes for every single possible reel combination to be played, on most machines over 200000 combinations, so I guess the accurate description would be streak. But again that's not really accurate either, since it's all random, I guess you could call it good random or bad random.

Slot manufacturers use a good round number of 10,000,000 plays to determine the return of a specific set of virtual reel strips, when a machine or chip is released it comes with a PAR sheet to show the varience that should be expected in the short term, just to prove it's really random, see below.

3 CM Wild Star Red White & Blue - 97.404%
PULLS ............... LOWER% ....... UPPER%
1000. ...................52.42 ...........142.39
10000. .................83.18 ...........111.63
100000. ...............92.91 ...........101.90
1000000. .............95.98 .............98.83
10000000. ...........96.95 .............97.85

 

[takethemoney]

What I notice in RTG RealTime Slots is that when they stop paying, they stay that way until they eat your bankroll. I don't think it's random. I think when a player spends too much time on them, they get tighter, the more you play them. Seems like to me, if their gonna hit, they will do it fairly soon. The problem is, too many of us get lured into playing on, thinking that progressive is gonna hit.

Seems as of late, they are much tighter.

 

[RobWin]

Sure, however if the point is to ensure profit you would go the extra mile. Programming a "random" cycle which is random in every cycle, however predictable in the way that the software can take advantage of good and bad cycles is very easy. In the end the total payout will also be 95% (or what you want it to be) and the accountants will be happy, stats will look great and everything.

As a software developer I can inform you this is very easy. Nobody says each cycle is identical, nobody says a cycle is even predictable. What is merely the case is that a cycle should in the end have 95% payout. This my friend, is an entirely different approach - the outcome will still look purely random at _all_ times whatever way you look at it since you can always add some spins to even the odds.

Kimss, quick question, I'm just curious what programming language are most of the software programs that you develop written in ?

 

[brianzz]

What I notice in RTG RealTime Slots is that when they stop paying, they stay that way until they eat your bankroll. I don't think it's random. I think when a player spends too much time on them, they get tighter, the more you play them. Seems like to me, if their gonna hit, they will do it fairly soon. The problem is, too many of us get lured into playing on, thinking that progressive is gonna hit.

Seems as of late, they are much tighter.

That's where the sliding rule of returns come into play on RTG, house payment is due? Lets slide it over to eat money.. car payment due, move it a little further to eat more, etc. Probably wouldn't be too hard to have a program to automatically adjust this while someone is playing. EG they just hit a $500 pay on penny, lets get that back and the rest of their deposit.

I'm sure most games on RTG software are configurable down into the 60% range.