How much do you think?

[snorky510238]

Ok how much do you think is deposited daily on average at one of the ‘top’ online casinos? You can only make a well educated guess at the answer to this question and even then you could be a million miles away but I would really like to see what sort of range we think is possible.

 

[Guntis]

Some of the top casinos have around 20-40K daily visitors. So my guess would be around 2 million $/£ if 20K visitors deposit 100$/£

 

[snorky510238]

Some of the top casinos have around 20-40K daily visitors. So my guess would be around 2 million $/£ if 20K visitors deposit 100$/£

Yes it’s an awful lot of people. I am just curious to see the variation in people’s perception of reality.

 

[dunover]

Ok how much do you think is deposited daily on average at one of the ‘top’ online casinos? You can only make a well educated guess at the answer to this question and even then you could be a million miles away but I would really like to see what sort of range we think is possible.

There's 'bit of string' question!
I haven't a clue. I wouldn't even like to guess other than to say believe it not, that casinos run on quite a low profit margin so turnover is king. I'm glad you asked the reasoned question 'how much is deposited' as opposed to 'how much do they make'. Casinos have substantial expenses which include:

Advertising.
Licensing Fees.
Local gaming taxes.
Local gains taxes (if profit threshold is reached to be liable).
Affiliate fees.
Platform Fees (unless they develop their own)
White Label Fees (assuming they hire a platform and don't own one)
Game provider percentage, i.e. a small fraction of stakes for each slot game. (unless you're GameTech or Affpower and have bent games)
AD-based Google keyword fees (if applicable).
Customer services either their own or pooled across their platform or license if several casinos in the group.
Tech people, again either their own or possibly part of a shared platform.
Bonus costs.

The above indicates that good turnover is required in all cases which means as big a customer base as possible. This also demonstrates why some smaller sites close on a frequent basis.

You also get an idea of why shithole casinos start, using cheap worthless Cure-a-cow 'licenses' and bent software as it greatly reduces the above, as they can choose to pay just smaller players, rip off affiliates once they've gained enough unfortunate players to make the scam operation profitable and use low-cost fake slots.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Below is the revenue from GIG for Q3/2018. They operate Guts, Betspin, Kaboo, Thrills, Rizk, Highroller, plus SuperLenny which is closing but was still open in Q3/2018

Revenue is what the company receives in money, does not mean profit. B2C revenue is the "business to customer"revenue, which are the casinos as all the rest from GiG is B2B.

24.4 million : 90 days = 270,000 / day : 6 casinos = appr. 46,000 EURO / day / casino

The result might be skewed as Guts and Rizk have Sportsbook too, but I think it gives you a good indication how much money is moved every day.

The EBITDA gives you a good indication as to what profit margins GiG is running on. But keep in mind EBITDA is before taxes, depreciation etc.

 

[snorky510238]

Yes as time goes by and players become more educated through joining forums like this I can only see the rich getting richer which in terms of what’s good for the players Imo can only be a good thing. If all these non complying/slow paying etc etc casinos were weeded out and getting the necessary licenses to be a ‘top’ outfit was mandatory and made rigorous by all countries and capped at a certain amount then that would benefit everyone. The players would know they are getting a fair deal. The ‘top’ casinos would make more profit so could offer players decent bonuses and loyalty rewards etc. Everyone is happy. I know this scenario won’t happen for many reasons but in a perfect world that’s my opinion of how it should be.

 

[snorky510238]

Below is the revenue from GIG for Q3/2018. They operate Guts, Betspin, Kaboo, Thrills, Rizk, Highroller, plus SuperLenny which is closing but was still open in Q3/2018

Revenue is what the company receives in money, does not mean profit. B2C revenue is the "business to customer"revenue, which are the casinos as all the rest from GiG is B2B.

24.4 million : 90 days = 270,000 / day : 6 casinos = appr. 46,000 EURO / day / casino

The result might be skewed as Guts has Sportsbook too, but I think it gives you a good indication how much money is moved every day.

The EBITDA gives you a good indication as to what profit margins GiG is running on. But keep in mind EBITDA is before taxes, depreciation etc.


View attachment 98396

Thanks Harry that is a decent indication of what I was looking for.

 

[Scott1baird]

Ok how much do you think is deposited daily on average at one of the ‘top’ online casinos? You can only make a well educated guess at the answer to this question and even then you could be a million miles away but I would really like to see what sort of range we think is possible.

Good question but also how much do there affiliates get paid out of this, how much do there game providers get paid ,about 11 k plus 15% of winnings and so on. How much is paid back out to depositing customers and how much is paid out due to promotions. It would probably be pretty even I'm guessing if £10,000,000 is deposited on a daily basis then the casino would make roughly £2 to £3m per day profit.

 

[goatwack]

This thread title almost caught me out.....my answer would have been 'not a lot'

 

[Jono777]

I always thought game providers were paid annually or on a rolling monthly contract of a pre-agreed fixed amount, not a fluctuating amount or in relation to how much they were spun away on by players

 

[Reelsoffun]

Good question but also how much do there affiliates get paid out of this, how much do there game providers get paid ,about 11 k plus 15% of winnings and so on. How much is paid back out to depositing customers and how much is paid out due to promotions. It would probably be pretty even I'm guessing if £10,000,000 is deposited on a daily basis then the casino would make roughly £2 to £3m per day profit.

I doubt its anywhere near that figure, suggesting that they make 20-30% is unlikely.

 

[pinnit2014]

Before all the numbers in the annual accounts you’ll get management spiel that may have something about it - not sure how much they disaggregate their online operations that much though.

Last ones I looked at were good for a laugh - Netent commenting on how well received Finn and the Shitty Spin was

 

[snorky510238]

Before all the numbers in the annual accounts you’ll get management spiel that may have something about it - not sure how much they disaggregate their online operations that much though.

Last ones I looked at were good for a laugh - Netent commenting on how well received Finn and the Shitty Spin was

Probably by some primary school kids who thought it was a fancy advent calendar.

 

[pinnit2014]

Probably by some primary school kids who thought it was a fancy advent calendar.

I can understand the casinos liking it....not much financial liability that needs to be hedge against ;-)

 

[dunover]

I always thought game providers were paid annually or on a rolling monthly contract of a pre-agreed fixed amount, not a fluctuating amount or in relation to how much they were spun away on by players

No, it works (usually) on game use. Games like Bonanza make an absolute fortune, Rhino would do well as would St*rb*rst. This means the developer gets paid by performance. Numerous casinos have Netent, and you wouldn't see for example a smaller operation pay the same fixed fee for them as say Casumo or Bet365 pay. This way the developer gets more and more presence and thus earnings, which they wouldn't get otherwise if the casino was charged a high fee just for having them. That said, it's possible some developers may provide on a basis of 'hybrid' i.e. a fixed fee plus revenue share - I know Novomatic are a developer only the bigger sites can afford as I hear they're quite expensive to offer. Where software works on developer cut of revenue, I believe it's around 10% though I'm not sure if that's simply usage or profit. After all, a 96% slot should make the casino 40 quid for every 1000 played through it, so the developer would get 4 quid of it. You'd likely find no two deals between a casino and a developer were exactly the same.

I could ask for some confirmation from casinos but I doubt I'd see it as that sort of thing is confidential.

 

[Harry_BKK]

No, it works (usually) on game use. Games like Bonanza make an absolute fortune, Rhino would do well as would St*rb*rst. This means the developer gets paid by performance. Numerous casinos have Netent, and you wouldn't see for example a smaller operation pay the same fixed fee for them as say Casumo or Bet365 pay. This way the developer gets more and more presence and thus earnings, which they wouldn't get otherwise if the casino was charged a high fee just for having them. That said, it's possible some developers may provide on a basis of 'hybrid' i.e. a fixed fee plus revenue share - I know Novomatic are a developer only the bigger sites can afford as I hear they're quite expensive to offer. Where software works on developer cut of revenue, I believe it's around 10% though I'm not sure if that's simply usage or profit. After all, a 96% slot should make the casino 40 quid for every 1000 played through it, so the developer would get 4 quid of it. You'd likely find no two deals between a casino and a developer were exactly the same.

I could ask for some confirmation from casinos but I doubt I'd see it as that sort of thing is confidential.

I know only this from the early days of Microgaming when the US was still allowed. A casino operator had to put a retainer down of $1 Million to be able to open a Microgaming casino. Don't know though in what form, could have been in the form of pure cash, bank guarantee or an escrow account. The founder of Fortune Lounge told me that once over a beer on a cruise.

Game providers earn a revenue on every spin, how much that is, is probably negotiable and subject to amount wagered/month or year etc.