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Discussion in 'Slots Discussion' started by trancemonkey, Dec 18, 2017.

    Dec 18, 2017
  1. trancemonkey

    trancemonkey Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Games Producer
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Hey all

    Some of you have asked me why i haven't designed a slot game based on suggestions from the CM forums.
    Even if it goes nowhere, i'd like to have a grown up, adult, no-tin-foil hat based discussion about what you guys & gals would like to see if i were to be able to do it - you never know, maybe one of the game providers lurking in here will even take it up if we can show sensible direction and debate.

    Do you think this is a good idea or not - we would discuss all aspects of slot design (art, maths, etc..) in an orderly process which i would try (and hopefully not fail!) to moderate!
     
  2. Dec 18, 2017
  3. Harry_BKK

    Harry_BKK Senior Member CAG mm1

    Occupation:
    job is OK
    Location:
    Balcony
    If we are discussing it seriously then it would have to top BTG's Bonanza and DHV as those are for me the math "monsters" that excite me.

    To heighten the variance even further we could have a random feature a la Immortal Romance or Thunderstruck 2 on top. That is in my view missing from those 2 BTG slots as they can get totally boring for hours while waiting to hit the Free Spins. A random feature would keep things at least more suspenseful.

    Personally, I like slots with lots of action....hence, random base game features and choices for the Free Spins are for me the way to go.
     
    nikantw, Mouche12, aceking123 and 2 others like this.
  4. Dec 18, 2017
  5. goatwack

    goatwack enthused hangman CAG

    Occupation:
    Turns Tricks
    Location:
    Londonia
    It would need to be of the current trend and have some type of megaways paytable. No 15 or 20- liners here, no siree.

    Base game would have to have the ability to surprise and pay well, like Danger's '6x' stacks. Player's love that unknown element. And for the sticky wilds brigade, maybe combine the two. Imagine a three reels of stuck multipliers akin to Danger (not something like white Rabbit's ass rings).

    Bonuses should be your typical multiplier fare, but with variance option a la Jungle Spirit. Hell, there ought to be an option to skip the build- up and just go for the 'big one': one spin at 100x or something hehe :D

    But most important aspect would be to have relevant graphics. Thusly, instead of players getting the 'Congratulations! You have won 0 coins!' message we definitely need an angry-faced pic of Dunover sampling "F*ck off you cheating c*nt" :eek:
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2017
  6. Dec 18, 2017
  7. trancemonkey

    trancemonkey Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Games Producer
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Bear in mind that I'm told Bonanza took a LONG time to develop due to the complexity of the maths. Whilst everything is possible give the right amount of time and resource I would only consider a game like this if I had the resource and money to spend a long time doing it.

    Also the kind of features that you mention would be extremely expensive.... So you couldnt have them very often. Or you would have to have the cheapest shittiest awards ever.
     
    snorky510238, Mouche12 and goatwack like this.
  8. Dec 18, 2017
  9. Tourettesguy

    Tourettesguy Troll - PITA

    Occupation:
    provate
    Location:
    Sweden
    Atleast 6 reels and 4 rows(4096 ways), no max win muliplied bet/line (like RTG), huge potential, free spins features with unlimited re-triggers possible including sticky wilds, and most important of all it should run smooth and fast and betweens spins no coin count-up delays if choosen. And a slowdown of reels beginning at reel 2 or 3 when a mega win is coming of atleast 100x bet (or maybe the player can set that limit himself/herself in slot options) and maybe a guarantteed free spins feature after 500 spins without one. No buy-in!!
     
    Mouche12 and trancemonkey like this.
  10. Dec 18, 2017
  11. goatwack

    goatwack enthused hangman CAG

    Occupation:
    Turns Tricks
    Location:
    Londonia
    Hey you did ask! :p
     
  12. Dec 19, 2017
  13. trancemonkey

    trancemonkey Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Games Producer
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Hey Goatwack... that's the point of this thread :)You guys say what you would like and then I explain whether it is possible and what the impact would be of what you are suggesting... this is exactly how we design games - we come up with ideas and then think about the practicalities of doing them. Then change/refine them until they hopefully work out :)
     
    Mouche12 and goatwack like this.
  14. Dec 19, 2017
  15. trancemonkey

    trancemonkey Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Games Producer
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I'm not sure that you mean about the "no max win"... the maximum liability would be chosen by the casino. It's not something we care about in the game - it's up to the casino to decide their max liability.

    Sticky wilds are expensive so on a ways game (like DHV) you won't be able to afford many and you will need a pretty low award card. This is almost certainly why BTG limit the wilds to the middle 4 reels... too expensive to have them on reels 1 and 6 as it - it's much easier to control the feature if you only have them on the middle 4 reels.

    Also unlimited retriggers with sticky wilds would probably mean that you have some enormous wins (and very rare) and therefore a lot of RTP would be in the feature and could possibly be unreachable for the vast majority of people. This is the kind of design that would require a lot of simulation to make sure that you don't have too much RTP hidden away that is very hard to get to. You need enough in the base game to keep it entertaining until you get the free spins... and if the free spins pay an enormous amount (on average) they will also have to be very rare (like Bonanza)
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2017
    snorky510238 likes this.
  16. Dec 19, 2017
  17. Tourettesguy

    Tourettesguy Troll - PITA

    Occupation:
    provate
    Location:
    Sweden
    Ok, here the thread is...dissapeard for me.

    Well the Immortal Romance Wild Vine feature almost never give more than 2-4 wilds...so ofcoarse the sticky would be very rare in free spins if sticky.
    Max win on RTG games(except one of them I think) are limited to 50000 x linebet..even if the actual spin would pay more according to paytable.
    Mostly people are not very rich playing slots...most play smaller bets so I think it should be possible to hit very big even on small bets but ofcoarse very rare. Or maybe two growing random jackpots, one for smaller bets up to €1/spins and access to the bigger bigger one on higher bets.
    Dunno but wouldn´t it help removing all small wins below 0,5x or even below 1x bet wins to add more higher wins? Its not that exciting winning €0,04 on 20 cents bets.
    Bonanza and DHV are somewhat a dissapointment...their features are not rewarding the player enough when they are so hard to get. And we have not seen any rally monsterous win yet..maybe one of 10,000x bet. And 22 free spins or more in Bonanza free spins mostly give same as a better 12 free spins feature. I think Dragon Born was the best...quite often I hit free spins and often more than 3 scatters..and the extra spins inside feature and payed alot better than Bonanza.
    An average volatility slot but with very high potential I would like. Smaller wins excluded, oor all wins below 1x bet could contribute to the random jackpots ONLY which triggers several times a day maybe.

    And during free spins, each spin would be generated randomly on gameservers after the spin before, not all free spins predetermined and downloaded before feature even starts. Make it random and not rigged ofcoarse! :D
     
    Mouche12 and aceking123 like this.
  18. Dec 19, 2017
  19. Chipkin9

    Chipkin9 I'm not a Senior

    Occupation:
    Between Jobs
    Location:
    Tyrone, Ireland
    Not much to contribute here...but the thing that gets alot of players buzzing the most is fullscreen wild or top paying symbol possibility. The symbol could pay 50x for a sinlge 5OAK for example. The number of line ways would then dictate the huge winning potential and therefore also would dictate how volatile it would/should be.

    Also, you'd have to ditch the feature gimmick of "coin wins" on any multiple feature bonus, like NotEnt and MG employ from time to time.

    Noone likes going hundreds of spins only to be bent over and getting rewarded with 10x
     
    aceking123 and trancemonkey like this.
  20. Dec 19, 2017
  21. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    People contributing here need to be aware that you can't have your cake and eat it! Let's take the random feature idea - on games like TS2 and IR the Shitstorm/period features are allocated less than 2% of the RTP. The base game is approximately 80% and features 15%. On Bonanza I'd say the feature is far less than 15% of RTP which we can deduce through the frequency of base game hits and the high turnover you usually get for your money compared to other games. So in order to keep the player playing through a generous base game AND having huge potential in the feature Bonanza simply rations the feature frequency out to every 4-500 spin, as players have observed which are 4 times rarer then other games.

    DoA is very similar in RTP set-up and generous base game to Bonanza only the feature is more frequent which results in 95% of them being utter shite.

    Like I said you can't have your cake and eat it. If we were to have a random feature on Bonanza the feature would either become even less common or the base game would become brutal in order to pay for it - you can't 'magic up' extra RTP, you are limited to 96-97%. This why I now avoid Jungle Spirit, where the random bullshit butterflies are simply really extra reel wins/multiples in disguise and the base game is vile, the price we pay for relatively common bonus rounds which also have the option of getting a near-guaranteed 20-40x bet if you choose cobras.

    Bear this in mind peeps - it's very hard to for a developer to get the balance right, as we can see with most Netent and MG games now.
     
  22. Dec 19, 2017
  23. Tourettesguy

    Tourettesguy Troll - PITA

    Occupation:
    provate
    Location:
    Sweden
    Big majority of spin wins are like 0,1x-4x bet....remove them all I say and create more bigger ones instead.
     
    Mouche12, aceking123 and trancemonkey like this.
  24. Dec 19, 2017
  25. Naok777

    Naok777 Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Customer Service
    Location:
    UK
    Take the old Thunderstruck, add a random feature where 2 or more wilds it gives one respin with those wilds being sticky, to pay for it remove some of the micro wins.

    That way you'd have a classic popular slot with reduced monotony between the freespins.
     
    trancemonkey likes this.
  26. Dec 19, 2017
  27. interlog

    interlog Senior Member MM webmeister

    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    London
    You want a slot to be engaging. The Southpark slot from Netent (now sadly retired) is a good example of this in my opinion. Lots of random frequent in game features that don't necessarily pay big but keep you entertained rather than watching reels spin until the feature.

    I don't mind waiting for features providing that there is entertainment and the base game behaves itself good enough to have a decent session for your money. Bonanza is a good example of this.

    The bonus rounds should pay decent on average with good potential to boot. Again, Bonanza has it.

    So if you could combine Bonanza with Southpark you are well on the way to a very good slot in my opinion.
     
  28. Dec 19, 2017
  29. chiya

    chiya Experienced Member PABnononaccred

    Location:
    Earth
    Red Tiger and Blueprint Games are good examples of both how and how to not make games. They have minifeatures like the mentioned South Park which keeps the game play engaging and fun. The issue is the fucking teases. Literally there is nothing more infuriating than waiting hundreds of spins for a minifeature if the game goes silent, then the mascot of that game pops up, waves his middle finger at you and fucks off once more.

    In any slot if you're gonna include features like this please piss off with the bullshit "haha here's a feature for you.. Nope, not really". I'd rather have a feature that paid zero than this.
     
  30. Dec 19, 2017
  31. goatwack

    goatwack enthused hangman CAG

    Occupation:
    Turns Tricks
    Location:
    Londonia
    As much as I'd like the micro-wins to go, and see no immediate benefit in winning 1/5 of my stake back, they're obviously an important component of slot psychology to keep us guessing.

    To have them replaced with dead spins and relatively bigger wins would become equally tiresome, and cheapen the impact of when a big win does occur.

    Truthfully, to incorporate everything we'd like in a slot is like walking your kids round Toys R Us and saying "Knock yourself out" :D

    I think Bonanza has it almost perfect, and superseded DOA even for low- and highrollers alike. The base game is stupendously solid and bonuses can (theoretically!) go on indefinitely, paying astronomical amounts. It can have 7 dead spins and go on crazy recoveries.... DOA you know you're screwed after about the 4th spin....

    If a game were to keep us tuned in for the dry base game streaks it would need the comic artistry of South Park, a collection of random graphics wouldn't do the same. In hindsight, I can't actually believe they've pulled that game :eek:

    One thing I definitely do not want in a slot is Pick Me features, either for coin prizes or 'spins + multipliers'. The only ones that ever got my juices flowing were the Playtech ones (Great Blue, Penguin Vacation etc) that felt splendid when you got the 10x multipliers with 15 spins, or Prime Property where unlocking all the tiles was immensely satisfying :cool:

    I just want bonuses to be commensurate with time invested. That's what I ultimately wish for :thumbsup:
     
    snorky510238, dunover and aceking123 like this.
  32. Dec 19, 2017
  33. trancemonkey

    trancemonkey Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Games Producer
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Removing small wins doesn't necessarily fix the problem you are talking about - but i do agree that wins < 1/2 bet are annoying. Of course, the more of these you remove, the lower the win frequency...

    Also, if you have a feature paying an average of 50x, then if you have this every 500 spins, it accounts for 10% of your total RTP. This means that for the other 499 spins you're playing an 85% game (assuming it's aiming at)

    Slots are all a balancing act as Dunover says... hopefully this thread will enable you guys to see just how much of a balancing act they are, and how difficult good slots are to make! :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2017
    dunover likes this.
  34. Dec 19, 2017
  35. trancemonkey

    trancemonkey Senior Member

    Occupation:
    Games Producer
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    I agree - i think the aim here would be to have a game with a solid Free Games bonus and some simple base game mechanic that is frequent enough to keep you interested, but doesn't always pay shit - i.e it has potential.
     
    goatwack likes this.
  36. Dec 29, 2017
  37. Gonzo

    Gonzo Abusive troll

    Occupation:
    own company
    Location:
    Sweden
    Something simular like flowers with a lots of staked wilds :) And let it be hard very hard to trigger a bonus but when it doeesssss ohhh mammaaaa kaaaa booooooom :p
     
  38. Dec 29, 2017
  39. aceking123

    aceking123 Ueber Meister CAG PABnononaccred MM

    Occupation:
    chippy
    Location:
    uk
    trash the shitty 1/2 stakes at least make the game equal bet on wards , this Christmas ive watched so many times the first 10-15 dead spins & then a pissy bet not even close to your stake , balance game should delivery in the feature, i shall never understand to why people want great game play base game only to find after 600 spins they hit a poor shitty feature was it worth the wait sadly no & on a 9 out of 10 scale ive already lost a fair chunk trying to get it.
    its a hard one for me as i think it should deliver in the feature , Merkur has slight advantage even over novo here on a general note they seem to bit a little better once you start hitting them , only problem here is the lines clearly have been pulled to make these slots again it comes down to preference, mainly people in here are more hard core players so thats your first problem.

    Someone stated Blueprint was bad however i find all their slots pretty fair in terms of good balance but is restricted on top features capped at 1000x shame its not 2000x.

    Redtiger are kings for teasing by a mile , badly set up with piles of wilds which hardly ever show & loads of near misses in fact to many to be fair.

    BTG are really opening eyes of players micro gaming & netent are just delivering crap/clones & this is showing as BTG are on top.

    i think you should make a good old retro slot like nudges unlimited AWP with a few extras:thumbsup: surely you remember with the token payments , im sure some old players would know what im on about (uk) , i have noticed one of btg slots has nicked the old fruits from a old slot i used to play in pub/arcade.

    as for a slot to make stick with 20 lines good features paying well & drop the base game off a little , random features which mean your going to get something worthy not a load of crap. happy balance but feature must produce , i think thats where providers has gone a little sad, no player plays not to hit the feature , if this wasnt the case we would all be playing classics slots not video slots )
     
    dunover, trancemonkey and goatwack like this.

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