GVC - Coral and Galacasino showing the wrong RTP to players, possible breach of license

[goatwack]

We'll probably all be told to suck it up, 84% isn't that far removed from landbased slots, fruit machines used to run around those lower figures etc

Difference being that landbased slots are infinitely more engaging and better-made, looking at the likes of e.g GoT, compared to its limp-wristed online incarnation

The stunts companies are pulling now is breathtaking, believing us all to be completely a) ignorant to the facts and/or b) too captivated by their games to care

I too hope some of these soulless shill companies get fined to buggery, a couple of £million isn't going to even get their attention. We need a Man City-esque punishment

 

[colinsunderland]

I too hope some of these soulless shill companies get fined to buggery, a couple of £million isn't going to even get their attention. We need a Man City-esque punishment

Yes, exactly. Fining them a few mill is like fining us a few pence. What would hurt and send shockwaves throughout the industry, meaning no one would try this type of thing again, would be a license suspension or revocation.

Its like the advertising fines handed out a couple of years ago, loads of casinos clamped down, using it as an excuse to fuck affiliates over, but there are loads, especially streamers, who are still doing the same as before and breaching CAP. If it means an extra £50 million income a year, if they get caught and fined say £5 million, wheres the incentive to stamp it out?

 

[Nordog]

Fines should be based on turnover/profit and be around 10+% depending on infracti

 

[SpinUk]

Totally this.

We've sat on this for days, doing loads of testing and Col has done a sterling job pursuing every official channel he can. It's not like we were in some mad hurry to start a big controversy (quite the opposite in fact), and the honest truth is that from my perspective I don't much enjoy doing the 'scandal' videos, I'm happiest just making my normal fruit machine emulation and online slots videos, with periodic videogame content (that hardly anyone watches ).

However, as a keen online slots player who has an (albeit small) YouTube presence I do think I have a responsibility to call out 'anti-player' stuff when it happens, such as VS stealthily reducing the RTP on their slots, or crap such as this at Coral and Gala. (And TBH I feel like we have a duty towards other CM members and other players, who may be playing these slots at Coral/Gala, thinking they're playing at a better RTP than they actually are.)

I don't mind losing when I'm playing at online casinos, I get that's going to happen when playing random games with a house edge, and I'm fine with that. (I've done over a million game rounds at 3Dice and my RTP is about bang on target, so you can work out how much I've spent there over the last eight years, but I don't have a single word of complaint about them.)

Casinos have the edge against the players, it's literally baked into every single game, the very least we must demand of them as players, is that they run their games in a fair and transparent manner. Coral and Gala have failed and they needed to be called out on it.

And the stakes that have been placed on those games with the misinformation - should those be net refunded?

 

[bamberfishcake]

Due to the fact they lowered their RTP, then migrated and displayed new help files claiming the higher RTP I think its fair to assume there would have been at some point, a discussion or discussions at management level, to do with the help files, the migration and the RTP.

I dont think its unreasonable to assume this was a conscious decision to rip off customers to increase profits.

 

[SpinUk]

Mistake or not the net funds should be refunded. Its not really a contentious issue.

 

[bamberfishcake]

Mistake or not the net funds should be refunded. Its not really a contentious issue.

Totally agree there should be refunds.

Its a contentious issue for me because if they have done it deliberately then there is intent and the punishment should be more severe.

It also shows the mindset of management/upper management within the organisation and is a reflection of their culture and ambition at the expense of their customers so i would be less inclined to play at any of the groups many outlets.

 

[Harry_BKK]

I am just about to review a new casino that will open very soon and this is how they show the games before you even load them. Now, if everyone would show something similar then we would be one step further.

 

[Slottery]

I am just about to review a new casino that will open very soon and this is how they show the games before you even load them. Now, if everyone would show something similar then we would be one step further.

View attachment 123328

If operator have control of this content it can still cause discrepancies (with purpose and by accident if any changes are made), if game+help file would be one bundle from provider which have to be available inside the game it would be impossible to happen.

This looks pretty much operators own content, volatility is one factor where from same game can be seen different description in different operators which is ok as there's no standard made how volatility should be shown and providers have their own scales in numbers which operators translating words (not relevant here but with that could assume that information is controlled by operator and not connected to help file where it's not usually even listed).

 

[News Hound]

Covered here: Coral and Gala Casino showing the wrong RTP to players

 

[paul7388]

See we have a new ladbrokes coral rep joined today.

Maybe he will say something here.

Or maybe since i was a customer at ladbrokes for 20 years he is just here to unlock my account that has been locked for a year and a half through their mistake.

 

[geordiecolin]

See we have a new ladbrokes coral rep joined today.

Maybe he will say something here.

Or maybe since i was a customer at ladbrokes for 20 years he is just here to unlock my account that has been locked for a year and a half through their mistake.

Interesting developement

 

[paul7388]

Unless i am mistaking all the playngo slots seem to have disappeared from coral at moment.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Indeed, I can't see them there either.....

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Hang on, Book Of Dead is there, with a new help file.....

 

[EkJR]

Have they actually replied to anyone at all?

 

[paul7388]

Hang on, Book Of Dead is there, with a new help file.....

View attachment 123365

Maybe because you in IOM not sure as gone from desktop at moment. Even gone from mini games bit same as all Play n Go games.

Edit. Found it now but all rest are still gone.

 

[paul7388]

Guessing they are getting added back 1 by 1.

Also see with correct RTP now it says last modified today.

On another note i noticed the other day they are starting to add MG slots again as Mega Moolah Avalon etc. are now there.

 

[colinsunderland]

I've been out today and only got 5 minutes now.

Adam has sent me a PM, they games have all been removed and are being added back when the help files are corrected.

Apparently they only found out this morning after reading this post. I think Adam will post at some point and theres not much else I can say at the moment as I've only just replied to his message, so would imagine it will be tomorrow when he replies.

 

[paul7388]

I've been out today and only got 5 minutes now.

Adam has sent me a PM, they games have all been removed and are being added back when the help files are corrected.

Apparently they only found out this morning after reading this post. I think Adam will post at some point and theres not much else I can say at the moment as I've only just replied to his message, so would imagine it will be tomorrow when he replies.

Is it same Adam that used to be Coral Rep or is it a different one.

 

[colinsunderland]

Is it same Adam that used to be Coral Rep or is it a different one.

No idea, I have actually asked that question haha.

 

[paul7388]

No idea, I have actually asked that question haha.

Yeah the old Adam was a nice guy the few times i dealt with him.

 

[colinsunderland]

If it was the one before adam at Gala then yes, I agree, he was spot on, very helpful, but I have a feeling he left when coral and ladbrokes merged

 

[paul7388]

If it was the one before adam at Gala then yes, I agree, he was spot on, very helpful, but I have a feeling he left when coral and ladbrokes merged

Did think it was a long shot it was same one lol. Thanks .

 

[Slottery]

Do we get long waited "Sorry, there was some mistake in communication and game information was not up to date for some time...."?

 

[Nicola]

Without a shadow of a doubt the company have known about this since 16th January. It's whether they dedicated to act upon the matter or pass the intelligence to the right person.

 

[gk286]

Thanks to all involved bringing this to light, who knows how long they would have got away with it for. My trust in those sites has been knocked massively.

 

[slot_zombie]

Well, that's that...

Where's all the casino freerollers with their full deposit refund requests when we need them!

Have to say my play time and interest in online slots is fast diminishing. If not the UKGC ruining things for the player, it's the industry time and again being exposed with crooked/inept shenanigans. Keep your 94% RTP, I'd rather go down the pub.

 

[EkJR]

This will only be damaging for them if its spread well enough that this company have essentially cheated players out of money. One of the biggest casino operators in the world no less. Think this will do some real damage to player relationships and trust across the board. Otherwise we will all be checking relentlessly before any game that's being played anywhere. Absolutely no word from GVC on it and it will be swept under the carpet as an "honest mistake". If I was playing there I would be chasing them down...although it may take about a year to actually get a response.

 

[colinsunderland]

Oh this gets better, this morning I asked for my chat logs from the past week, they sent them, but also someone elses, including the GDPR security questions/answers for that customer.

Live chat was fun when I went on to ask about this, I won't bore people with the first 35 minutes, but suffice to say she refused to do anything, so I asked her if I should contact the customer to save them doing it

You : no, i mean shall i contact the customer who's details you sent to me, its clear you won't be, so should I, to save you the trouble 00:41

Bethany: Even if you will contact the customer who own that chat log, it will be useless. 00:42
Bethany: Since it was already cascaded to our Manager. 00:42

You: why will it be useless? The customer has a right to know doesn't he? 00:42

Bethany: Do whatever you want. We will do an internal process about what happened. 00:45
Bethany: Thank you for contacting Coral Support. Have a wonderful day! 00:46

 

[goatwack]

It's nothing if not professional

 

[colinsunderland]

It's nothing if not professional

It certainly is 'not professional' lol

 

[bamberfishcake]

See we have a new ladbrokes coral rep joined today.

Maybe he will say something here.

Or maybe since i was a customer at ladbrokes for 20 years he is just here to unlock my account that has been locked for a year and a half through their mistake.

I've been out today and only got 5 minutes now.

Adam has sent me a PM, they games have all been removed and are being added back when the help files are corrected.

Apparently they only found out this morning after reading this post. I think Adam will post at some point and theres not much else I can say at the moment as I've only just replied to his message, so would imagine it will be tomorrow when he replies.

So they found out this morning after reading this thread.

What an amazing coincidence that they joined today.

After CM did a full story as well.

What a difference a day makes. Well that clears it all up,

Absolute disgrace if they are allowed to get away with this by claiming ignorance.

 

[Nordog]

Maybe time to concider making them rogue?
Intentionally showing wrong RTP, and then breaking GDPR laws and acting like Nothing

 

[Fridayhigh]

So the moral of the story is - if you cheat sooner or later you get caught. As if Coral really cares. And for how long. All they care about is their share price. This is not even a blimp on the radar.

When does a thief stop thieving When they get caught, not really, when fined, not really, when locked up, not really. Then When? When you cut their fucking hands off and they are no longer able to steal. How many fines imposed by the UKGC are actually paid, probably very few. Most likely held up in litigation on appeals.

I remember way back when tobacco companies were being sued for sums into the billions, and it was like 15 years on and not one victim had yet to receive a penny. Lawyers made out good into the millions.

Forget chat, forget talking to the software provider or even the UKGC, walk down to your local magistrate and fie a claim, no different then what was laid out in this forum. You be surprised how many judges have grievences with these bookies and casinos, they too gamble a lot and lose and are just waiting for justice.

You might have all your accounts closed, but it might be good thing in the long run. And instead of a fine, cut the hands off, have their sites taken off line for two weeks or so. Far better a penalty. all online customers balances immediately returned, no further bets taken and a BIG FUCKING 404 PAGE NOT FOUND IMPOSED! then and only then will justice be served.

 

[mack341]

I would hope this error generated a debate within the ukgc, on the information provided to the customer, where and how it must be provided, stop hiding the rtp information at the back end of the help files basically.

There must be a case for refunds from the time of the coral error occurring, but perhaps it would only be for the people who accessed the incorrect help file, I don't know if coral's monitoring or site software would collect/provide that information.

As it's known amongst many players that PnG offer lower rtp versions to operators, I would hazard a guess a larger percentage of people accessed that help file than normally would with other popular slot games, not known to offer different rtps...montezuma, rhino, doa etc...

"prepared to divest itself of any gross gambling yield or cost savings which accrued as a result of the failings"-ukgc

Also from the ukgc:

As of 1 September 2016 remote operators are required to monitor the performance of the games they offer. The core focus of this monitoring is to ensure random number generator (RNG) driven products are fair and achieving the designed return to player (RTP).

Could coral have done this diligently at the same time as advertising the wrong rtp? Surely someone or a technical dept is tasked with overseeing this process.

It will be interesting to hear Coral/gala's explanation, though we may never, how such a big firm can display this error for weeks undetected. Especially when they have recently changed the version of the game to the lower rtp one, one thing in that situation you'd do, or be expected to do, is to make sure your customers weren't mislead that they were still playing the previous higher rtp version.

 

[slot_zombie]

The UKGC don't care about things like RTP that affect players.

They only care about being seen to be tough on responsible gambling and money laundering, by their masters.

 

[dunover]

So having served watered-down beer for ages, what will be their sanction for doing so?

 

[bamberfishcake]

All they care about is their share price.

The cynic in me wonders how much of this was a deliberate attempt to increase profits due to reportedly poor results for shareholders last year.

There must be a case for refunds from the time of the coral error occurring, but perhaps it would only be for the people who accessed the incorrect help file,

Absolutely agree. If i had spent money at Coral i would be asking for a refund on the evidence provided in this thread even if i had not found it myself at the time.

Even if you did not know of the error at the time the product paid for was not the product listed. Its maybe more of a case for Trading Standards. I wonder what they would think of it?

So having served watered-down beer for ages

Great analogy. Usually a hefty fine in place for the culprits. Not sure about refunds on drinks though.



Edit: Found this info;

Should you not be able to resolve a complaint then you can approach The Independent Betting Adjudication Service (IBAS) or in some cases the Advertising Standards Agency and the Gambling Commission.

Maybe its the Advertising Standards Agency who should know about this.

 

[shadow123]

Oh this gets better, this morning I asked for my chat logs from the past week, they sent them, but also someone elses, including the GDPR security questions/answers for that customer.

Live chat was fun when I went on to ask about this, I won't bore people with the first 35 minutes, but suffice to say she refused to do anything, so I asked her if I should contact the customer to save them doing it

You : no, i mean shall i contact the customer who's details you sent to me, its clear you won't be, so should I, to save you the trouble 00:41

Bethany: Even if you will contact the customer who own that chat log, it will be useless. 00:42
Bethany: Since it was already cascaded to our Manager. 00:42

You: why will it be useless? The customer has a right to know doesn't he? 00:42

Bethany: Do whatever you want. We will do an internal process about what happened. 00:45
Bethany: Thank you for contacting Coral Support. Have a wonderful day! 00:46

Dont know if they realize how serious that data breach was,I had something similar with a solicitor
last year and they were absolutly shitting themselves.If I was the person concerned I would definatly sue
them,

I joined and left Corals a couple of months ago, the whole setup just felt dodgy and I lost hand over fist.
mainly playing play and go and red tiger, think they deserve a wake up call in the form of a massive fine.

 

[L&L-Jan]

Anyway, @colinsunderland and @ChopleyIOM you guys did a great job in putting a lot of efforts when you found a huge mistake, taking all efforts for complete this task is basically a huge contribution to a fair and safe (online) gambling environment.

Well done guys!

 

[colinsunderland]

Anyway, @colinsunderland and @ChopleyIOM you guys did a great job in putting a lot of efforts when you found a huge mistake, taking all efforts for complete this task is basically a huge contribution to a fair and safe (online) gambling environment.

Well done guys!

Getting a strange sense of Deja Vu

Thanks for the comments Jan, lets see where it ends up
Just as a little update, the rep will be commenting on here at some point, but he is still awaiting some answers to questions I put to him.

 

[shadow123]

yep thanks guys for your hard work, lets hope the regulators see it all and take action

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Follow-on video with the current situation.

 

[SpinUk]

Nice video. For a group that size it was likely not deliberate. Should they give refunds? 100% yes. Should they be fined? Bearing in mind their risk control failed even after player notification of the issue, and the subsequent time to process a correction - most definitely.

 

[SpinUk]

So the moral of the story is - if you cheat sooner or later you get caught. As if Coral really cares. And for how long. All they care about is their share price. This is not even a blimp on the radar.

When does a thief stop thieving When they get caught, not really, when fined, not really, when locked up, not really. Then When? When you cut their fucking hands off and they are no longer able to steal. How many fines imposed by the UKGC are actually paid, probably very few. Most likely held up in litigation on appeals.

I remember way back when tobacco companies were being sued for sums into the billions, and it was like 15 years on and not one victim had yet to receive a penny. Lawyers made out good into the millions.

Forget chat, forget talking to the software provider or even the UKGC, walk down to your local magistrate and fie a claim, no different then what was laid out in this forum. You be surprised how many judges have grievences with these bookies and casinos, they too gamble a lot and lose and are just waiting for justice.

You might have all your accounts closed, but it might be good thing in the long run. And instead of a fine, cut the hands off, have their sites taken off line for two weeks or so. Far better a penalty. all online customers balances immediately returned, no further bets taken and a BIG FUCKING 404 PAGE NOT FOUND IMPOSED! then and only then will justice be served.

It won’t come to this, they will pay voluntarily - you watch - “as a gesture” in readiness for the UKGC fine.

 

[shadow123]

Not suggesting it would ever happen but the UKGC does have the power to issue the ultimate
sanction, withrawing the casinos license.That might get their attention.
I would have thought that the uk bookmakers would be doing everything to make sure their online
casinos were top notch and squeaky clean as the high st bookie shop business has been decimated
due to the cash cow of the FOTB,s being slaughtered.Dont know if it the same all over country but the
local shops are vitually empty and I never see anyone on the machines.I cant imagine many are still
making a profit.
The only thing that saved Gala was the move to online, they had no idea how to run bingo halls, all
they were interested in was increasing the value of the business.

 

[colinsunderland]

Just got this email from Coral Complaints


We are writing further to you, in relation to your complaint about the RTP's of some of our games.

Due to the serious nature of this issue we would like to provide you with a current update to our investigation.

• We were made of the issue on Monday off the back of your communication.
• We have instructed the removal of all games pending thorough investigation and checks for the issues you raised; The Autoplay loss limit, the help files for both Play N Go and Red Tiger.
• We will be communicating to any players effected by these issues this week.
• There was and would never be any intentional attempt to mislead players in the ways you have described; we are one of the biggest Gaming companies operating in the UK and the actions described would definitely be counter to the way we conduct our operations.

In the meantime, should you wish to clarify anything further, please do not hesitate to contact us via this email address. 

Kind Regards,

 

[SpinUk]

Just got this email from Coral Complaints


We are writing further to you, in relation to your complaint about the RTP's of some of our games.

Due to the serious nature of this issue we would like to provide you with a current update to our investigation.

• We were made of the issue on Monday off the back of your communication.
• We have instructed the removal of all games pending thorough investigation and checks for the issues you raised; The Autoplay loss limit, the help files for both Play N Go and Red Tiger.
• We will be communicating to any players effected by these issues this week.
• There was and would never be any intentional attempt to mislead players in the ways you have described; we are one of the biggest Gaming companies operating in the UK and the actions described would definitely be counter to the way we conduct our operations.

In the meantime, should you wish to clarify anything further, please do not hesitate to contact us via this email address. 

Kind Regards,

“Effected”.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The problem with this is that if it can happen once it can happen again. (And who knows, maybe other casinos are doing it right now.)

Having help files externally to the game itself is simply a bad idea, and clearly open to error, either deliberate or accidental.

Bake the actual running RTP of the slot into the game itself, simple as that.