Game providers have a reason to rig slots

[bamberfishcake]

Is it not fair to say that we see more wildlines on 9p's because its probably the most played stake by a long way?

Sorry if this has already been mentioned. I tend to scan threads.

Also, the 90's was a great age for heavyweight boxing

 

[Casinomeister]

Since when is it forbidden to express frustration on a forum that's promoting gambling?

You were expressing your frustration as an act of violence - stating you want to punch a casino rep in the face. This is not only way out of line, it also violates our rules by flaming others.

One thing that sets this forum apart from others is the discussions between players, casino reps, software providers, and game developers. Posts like the one you made inhibits these discussions - which ruins this party for everyone. Posts like the one you made are immature, thoughtless, and selfish.

You are welcome to take your attitude elsewhere. I won't tolerate it here.

 

[andym]

Hard discussion as you all mentioned that this already had been discussed several time.
but I really have to say that I’m really ‘not happy‘ in the meantime from statements from trancemonkey, the reps and other industry guys:
no one is playing slots only for entertainment! We all play slots for the chance of winning. That’s the key thing here. Entertainment is only the thrill of the chance to win. As guys here in the threadalready said there a 1000nd other ways to get cheaper entertainment as this would be the only thing that matters here. So don’t hide behind that!
yes, in general you loose. We all know that. But over the last years it’s getting harder and harder to even get the chance to Tat least sometimes win. And that’s so obvious in the last years that a lot of players have the feeling now that you fool them.
if everything is rdm and fair and based on RTP then pls explain me that:
a very lot of times you deposit let’s say 200eur. You play different slot, stakes, providers in one casino. You loose in all slots but then shortly before you go bankrupt you get a ‚bigger win or feature‚ And that brings you back very close to your 200eur deposit.
I would say that this makes sense if you play the complete session only in one slot or even at one provider. But this is not the case. it doesn’t matter how many different slots I played in that session.
So why do exactly that happens so often in depositsessions?
i would understand that if someone tells me that there is a ‚casino-RTP‘. But you guys clearly say that there are slot RTPs.
beside everything else this for me is the clearest indicator that something is ‚not right‘ here.
but finally to all: we (The customers) are the problem here. we should just Stop playing at greedy casinos Specially when it’s so obvious than it is these days...

 

[Bloatgoat]

So why do exactly that happens so often in depositsessions?

Agreed. When you hit, you hit big enough that is close to your own initial withdrawls of the day. And when you continue, the changes are 9 out of 10 you'll lose it. No matter what strategy, low, medium, high, aggresive, soft, just dont matter how and which slot.

Last weekend as well: i was being held artificially at a 2000 euro mark. Like the casino does'nt want me to win any bigger or the chance on a bigger withdrawl (for them). It kept swinging me from avg 2200 back to 1800 > back to 2300 back to 1500 > back to 2200 or from the last 100 euro bonus buy on a game, launch me back to 2200. What do you mean it's not tweaked?

With this in mind i could as well hit the 2k mark, withdrawl 500, continue and hit the 2k mark again, withdrawl 500, and repeat that proces again and again till i get a sense hey it stopped doing that. But as i played along, in their numbers and records, i did have a higher rtp then on avg.

I think it's a way of cheating in between the lines. And to cut out on financial responsibility for this particular casino. Fact is, there is a system behind it that pretty much is designed to tilt players. You lost, oh lets make a deposit again, give back a balance and the sheer (sad) hope of maybe attempting to win again.

A year ago; i had the same artificial limit too; it kept me at an avg of 22k. It woud'nt let me go higher, but it woud'nt make me lose either. It just kept doing that for a long enough of a time, untill the party was over and it tumbled down from that point on. It makes sense if you could win the double amount, but some security measure is preventing the games or providers to payout more then what my actual balance is at the moment.

 

[trancemonkey]

It's easy to cast stones at the industry but spare a moment's thought for that poor auditor who has had to sit through 50 million spins on bonanza to make sure the RTP is accurate

You've heard of simulations right?

 

[trancemonkey]

Hard discussion as you all mentioned that this already had been discussed several time.
but I really have to say that I’m really ‘not happy‘ in the meantime from statements from trancemonkey, the reps and other industry guys:
no one is playing slots only for entertainment! We all play slots for the chance of winning. That’s the key thing here. Entertainment is only the thrill of the chance to win. As guys here in the threadalready said there a 1000nd other ways to get cheaper entertainment as this would be the only thing that matters here. So don’t hide behind that!
yes, in general you loose. We all know that. But over the last years it’s getting harder and harder to even get the chance to Tat least sometimes win. And that’s so obvious in the last years that a lot of players have the feeling now that you fool them.
if everything is rdm and fair and based on RTP then pls explain me that:
a very lot of times you deposit let’s say 200eur. You play different slot, stakes, providers in one casino. You loose in all slots but then shortly before you go bankrupt you get a ‚bigger win or feature‚ And that brings you back very close to your 200eur deposit.
I would say that this makes sense if you play the complete session only in one slot or even at one provider. But this is not the case. it doesn’t matter how many different slots I played in that session.
So why do exactly that happens so often in depositsessions?
i would understand that if someone tells me that there is a ‚casino-RTP‘. But you guys clearly say that there are slot RTPs.
beside everything else this for me is the clearest indicator that something is ‚not right‘ here.
but finally to all: we (The customers) are the problem here. we should just Stop playing at greedy casinos Specially when it’s so obvious than it is these days...

Im not sure is said that everyone plays purely for entertainment - of course the overall reason for playing is the hope of a big win, but as providers our job is to entertain as much as possible while, inevitably, people lose money. It isn't rocket science, its fact. Without winners, the industry would die in minutes - it's the winning that keeps people coming back, not the losing, butit's the losing that keeps the casinos open...

 

[Davey86]

So are slots rigged or not

 

[goatwack]

So are slots rigged or not

Yes, but only in a fair, semi-random way

 

[Davey86]

Yes, but only in a fair, semi-random way

Cleared that up then

 

[andym]

Trancemonkey we all get that. And it doesnt matter how nicely you describe that.
but still there are open things that needs to discuss here as it doesn’t add up to the math you and the industry sell to the people:
- see my 200eur example in the last post
How can that be explained by your math?

 

[brizman]

Its randomly controlled..now stop questioning it... Everytime i question gameplay on a casino, i get asked if i am ok with my levels of gambling. Casinos don't really care what a player thinks. Just shut up and continue to deposit..it's random, so as you were...

 

[Slottery]

Its randomly controlled..now stop questioning it... Everytime i question gameplay on a casino, i get asked if i am ok with my levels of gambling. Casinos don't really care what a player thinks. Just shut up and continue to deposit..it's random, so as you were...

Don't they provide your gameplay history when you ask? These usually tell quite a lot, it's really easy to see/find some patterns when they exist, really wonder why people here don't ask them more to back up statements like that 200 eur earlier in this thread. These can be seen really easily from actual game round history and would be much easier to comment than something that happened in somebody feelings without any of these actual numbers which make it clear for everyone else instead of only person who have feeling it always happen.

 

[andym]

Some casinos are not even able or willing to provide you your real RTP on their site.
if you don’t believe me: ask rizk casino for your real RTP there.

 

[Slottery]

Some casinos are not even able or willing to provide you your real RTP on their site.
if you don’t believe me: ask rizk casino for your real RTP there.

If you ask them to provide your all gameplay history, do they refuse to do that? If you have that, you can easily calculate everything you want to have from RTP to hit frequency, sort different providers or games etc... That's something where you can get all numbers you want, i haven't heard any casino would have refuse to provide these when player request. All claims about patterns or any such things would be nice to back with some numbers instead of feelings where other people don't have access. Providing these with statements based only feelings would show it for every single person who is able to read numbers which is pretty much all who have gone school, without them, it's just some "but this is how i feel" fact.

I have nothing against that these theories people post are true but these claims just have nothing to clarify something is happening in real instead of writers head.

 

[trancemonkey]

Trancemonkey we all get that. And it doesnt matter how nicely you describe that.
but still there are open things that needs to discuss here as it doesn’t add up to the math you and the industry sell to the people:
- see my 200eur example in the last post
How can that be explained by your math?

It's very easily explained by statistics and probability... there are big wins in most games, you just have to be lucky enough to hit them. If you play long enough, you will likely hit one - or hopefully, more than one!

Does it happen every time? If so, please put 200 euros in and video your session - so i can go to that casino and empty it of all it's money

Remember, you are much more likely to notice a big win when it gets you out of jail (i.e close to losing everything) than you are if you have only just started because of the sense of relief it gives you (as well as excitement)...

I wonder if you will answer this question that others refuse to answer:

Do you think that all the providers conspire, against the law and at risk of losing their entire business if caught, in order to compensate games when random games behave EXACTLY as you think compensated games do just through probability?

It would be easy to prove btw - record every single session you have and just note down all wins over, say, 20x. If you can prove that you get more of these when your balance is low vs when your balance is high, then boom - go to the Daily Mail However, my guess (sorry, my knowledge) is that you will see no correlation between balance and profile.

If SG or IGT were caught doing anything like that, they would instantly lose their Nevada licence. Lose that, and all other regulators will follow suit. Bye bye multi-billion dollar businesses. And for what? It makes no sense whatsoever - i get the cynics in people thinking "of course they do it, money is involved" but if you gave some serious thought to what you're actually positing, it makes zero sense.

 

[dunover]

Some casinos are not even able or willing to provide you your real RTP on their site.
if you don’t believe me: ask rizk casino for your real RTP there.

Use Slottracker - It will do it for you.
EDIT (typo lol)

 

[trancemonkey]

Use Slottracker - I will do it for you.

Offering personal services eh Dunover

 

[Happymeal]

Some probably do.. Some dont. RTP setting is the sneaky bit.

 

[Kroffe]

It's very easily explained by statistics and probability... there are big wins in most games, you just have to be lucky enough to hit them. If you play long enough, you will likely hit one - or hopefully, more than one!

Does it happen every time? If so, please put 200 euros in and video your session - so i can go to that casino and empty it of all it's money

Remember, you are much more likely to notice a big win when it gets you out of jail (i.e close to losing everything) than you are if you have only just started because of the sense of relief it gives you (as well as excitement)...

I wonder if you will answer this question that others refuse to answer:

Do you think that all the providers conspire, against the law and at risk of losing their entire business if caught, in order to compensate games when random games behave EXACTLY as you think compensated games do just through probability?

It would be easy to prove btw - record every single session you have and just note down all wins over, say, 20x. If you can prove that you get more of these when your balance is low vs when your balance is high, then boom - go to the Daily Mail However, my guess (sorry, my knowledge) is that you will see no correlation between balance and profile.

If SG or IGT were caught doing anything like that, they would instantly lose their Nevada licence. Lose that, and all other regulators will follow suit. Bye bye multi-billion dollar businesses. And for what? It makes no sense whatsoever - i get the cynics in people thinking "of course they do it, money is involved" but if you gave some serious thought to what you're actually positing, it makes zero sense.

On a related note.
I dont remember wich thread i saw it in, but it was a rtp-related thread.
Anyways, he said providers can have different rtp-profiles on different stakes, and that its perfectly legal to do so.
Meaning hitting a 1000x win on £10 may be a several times harder than hitting it on 10p for example.
Total rtp is the same of course, just distributed differently based on stake.

Is this something you can confirm aswell?

 

[Supababe]

On a related note.
I dont remember wich thread i saw it in, but it was a rtp-related thread.
Anyways, he said providers can have different rtp-profiles on different stakes, and that its perfectly legal to do so.
Meaning hitting a 1000x win on £10 may be a several times harder than hitting it on 10p for example.
Total rtp is the same of course, just distributed differently based on stake.

Is this something you can confirm aswell?

That’s how the video slots in local pubs etc work so Ive noticed. I imagine that a similar model is used by a few online slot providers eg SG
Eg a machine I saw not long since:
25p spin give 82%
50p spin gives 86%
£1spin gives 90%
Overall rtp is 87.425%

 

[Kroffe]

That’s how the video slots in local pubs etc work so Ive noticed. I imagine that a similar model is used by a few online slot providers eg SG
Eg a machine I saw not long since:
25p spin give 82%
50p spin gives 86%
£1spin gives 90%
Overall rtp is 87.425%

Ah, but what im thinking about is not quite the same as that.
I know some slots do have different rtp based on stake, some barcrest (i think it was) have 94% for all bets under £2 and 96% for all bets over.

But different rtp-profiles based on stake (like it was explained in the other thread) would mean its still the same total rtp, just distributed differently.
Example would be that on 10p stake the rtp is distributed 30/70 for bonus&basegame hits, but on £10 the distribution is 5/95 meaning almost all of the rtp is given out in lower basegamehits instead of big bonuses.
Total is still the same, but it would reduce the risk for casinos since big hits on big stakes would be incredibly rare.

And apparently its legal to do it this way.
Ill have to go searching for the thread where i saw it posted first.

 

[trancemonkey]

On a related note.
I dont remember wich thread i saw it in, but it was a rtp-related thread.
Anyways, he said providers can have different rtp-profiles on different stakes, and that its perfectly legal to do so.
Meaning hitting a 1000x win on £10 may be a several times harder than hitting it on 10p for example.
Total rtp is the same of course, just distributed differently based on stake.

Is this something you can confirm aswell?

It was me that said it...
The answer is that yes, you can do that BUT the following would have to be true:

If you have a different profile on each stake, then you would have to show the RTP for each stake (like FOBT's do in the UK) OR they would all have to be exactly the same RTP.

Also, it would cost more to be tested by the regulators / test-houses if you have a lot of RTP settings, so it is very unlikely providers would do this regularly (if at all).

I have done games with different maths for each stake, but this has only been done when the RTP increases as you bet higher (as per FOBT games in the UK again). Online, i wouldn't bother - the range of stakes is far too high.

If i WERE going to do it online, i would be much more likely to make the game less volatile at higher stakes so that the high rollers don't get stung too much... but honestly, i would not do this online. For me, it makes no sense.

It doesn't mean no one has done it though.

 

[Kroffe]

It was me that said it...
The answer is that yes, you can do that BUT the following would have to be true:

If you have a different profile on each stake, then you would have to show the RTP for each stake (like FOBT's do in the UK) OR they would all have to be exactly the same RTP.

Also, it would cost more to be tested by the regulators / test-houses if you have a lot of RTP settings, so it is very unlikely providers would do this regularly (if at all).

I have done games with different maths for each stake, but this has only been done when the RTP increases as you bet higher (as per FOBT games in the UK again). Online, i wouldn't bother - the range of stakes is far too high.

If i WERE going to do it online, i would be much more likely to make the game less volatile at higher stakes so that the high rollers don't get stung too much... but honestly, i would not do this online. For me, it makes no sense.

It doesn't mean no one has done it though.

So if the total rtp is exactly the same, there is no need to disclose that the rtp may be distributed differently based on stake?
Like your example, making the game less volatile on higher stakes would most likely mean getting those super wins (several 1000x) would be alot harder.
It could be like playing a completely different slot more or less.

 

[Bloatgoat]

It's really not about the RTP here, as a 92% or 85% slot could just as pay up as a 96% RTP based slot can do. You just have to be lucky enough when it spits out. I think it's more about the cushioning tactics that area obviously appearing. I get it. We cant get 1000x wins every day. People have to lose. But this is a bit over the edge. I bet for the budget some are playing on here could have twice the pleasure in a landbased when selected a proper machine. And still walk away with profit. Those things dont even have 96%, just a rough 85% or so....

 

[Slottery]

It's really not about the RTP here, as a 92% or 85% slot could just as pay up as a 96% RTP based slot can do. You just have to be lucky enough when it spits out. I think it's more about the cushioning tactics that area obviously appearing. I get it. We cant get 1000x wins every day. People have to lose. But this is a bit over the edge. I bet for the budget some are playing on here could have twice the pleasure in a landbased when selected a proper machine. And still walk away with profit. Those things dont even have 96%, just a rough 85% or so....

Guess that most of people who want to get rich, would pass online and landbased casinos as investing instruments. It's just plain stupid to think you can make some money from games where you already know your ROI is under 100%. People like to gamble little bit there and there but no people with brains do that in hope to walk away with profit in long term. If you win big enough to make you winning, you do stop in that point if you ever have started to waste your money to slots, if you still keep playing games which in long term quite sure just take your money, then you play for entertainment which is quite boring and many other entertainment investments could bring much more to life.

These slots just seem to make people think a bit unrealistic and keep spending more money to try to proof themselves that you lose your money to these games even it's been quite proven before the first spin.