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Fortyplus Casino

The Dude

The Dude

The artist formally known as Casinomeister
Hall Of Fame Awardee Shield Meister
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
I've finally gotten through to the CEO of Oddson, who reaffirms that Fortyplus casino went under. I should be talking to him shortly on the phone to find out is there is any recourse for players.

Fortyplus Casino was "licensed" in Costa Rica by the way.
 
As it looks right now, players will probably be left in the cold on this one. The software provider is taking the postion that they provide the software, and that's about it. I'm rather flustered at this point since I have always thought that Oddson was better equipped both technically and ethically to deal with situations like this.

I really hope they pull themselves out of this nosedive before things get worse.
 
It is an absolute recipe for disaster for any serious turnkey provider to think that they can simply wash their hands of failed casinos that leave stiffed players in their wake.

I too hope that Gagnon and his crew at Odds On have more business sense than to leave the status quo like this - they are asking for major consumer resistance and a perhaps terminally damaged reputation.

Their remaining licensees will not be happy with this attitude, either.

Perhaps on reflection they will decide to behave in a more current and responsible fashion.

Does anyone have information on the real owners of Forty Plus btw? Can they be hunted down?
 
Believe me, its' not the last word just because ODDS ON SOFTWARE says they're not going to see that the debt's of Forty Plus are honored.

First off they (ODDS ON) had better come up with some fast and straight answers incident to Forty Plus's impound or reserve account that is held and controlled by Odds On.

Secondly, a very thorough list of players as well as the amounts owed to those players needs to be compiled and memorialized.

Third a list of ANY and ALL ODDS ON SOFTWARE LICENSEES (no Cherry Picking) all of them needs to be compiled and published along with an alert to avoid those casinos as though they carried the plague.

Fourth, every player on this Forum (or any other FORUM for that matter) needs to start taking this "BS" personally and as if the money that's been stolen is their own. Have a good one.

Cipher
 
Well said, Cipher. This issue is definitely going to escalate as word gets out of Odds On's incredibly unprofessional approach to the Forty Plus affair.
 
Have always enjoyed playing at Odds On powered casinos but being out of pocket for trusting the Odds-On brand in the case of Forty Plus makes me feel bitter and dumb for playing at these places now.

Presently the Surviving Odds On / virtual exchange powered casinos are :

Englishharbour
Silverdollar
CaribbeanGold
Aposte
AllPoker
Superslots
Millionaire
Casinobleublancrouge

Are player deposits safe at Odds on powered casinos these days?

We know times have been tough, and they cannot afford to offer much in promos anymore - how solid are they now?

For nostalgic players a list of Failed odds on casinos would include :

Casino365
Beawinner
Orioncasino
Magiclampcasino
Northshorecasino
Blackjack.com
VegasPlayercasino

And Now FortyPlus Casino ... BUT ...

Has something changed for the worse over at Odds On / Virtual exchange?

Cause i recall when these other casinos went down that players were paid weeks or months after they closed down. It seemed like Odds - On had prudently held some casino cash in reserve in case of failure. But now with Fortyplus we're told that the well is dry - tuff luck? Makes a player feel like he's been sucker punched.

What's that expression? Fool me once ...

You would figure that an experienced SW provider - to protect the value of his brand name - would require a casino operater to put up funds just to avoid the operator skipping out and leaving players stranded.

It also makes you wonder what the financial requirements are to purchase an odds on casino? Are they allowing under funded casinos to open up now?

Even though the games are good and the csr's are very good, maybe the Odds on management are tipping their hand that it ain't safe to play here anymore?

Sure hope not.

[If anyone wants to repost this elsewhere, go ahead]


(Message edited by portia on December 06, 2003)
 
Undertones here are if a software supplier does'nt cover errant licensee debts then software supplier is full of shite.

Well i agree.

A list of suppliers who do this as far as i know stretches to..

Microgaming
Cryptologic
Cassava ??


(Message edited by amandajm on December 06, 2003)
 
Please, guys, I am trying to negotiate this still.

Perhaps I should have publicized my attempts to do this better.

Anyone seeking help in this situation - please write to me at [email protected]

The situation does not look rosy, but please don't burn my bridges while I still hold out some hope to resolve this.

I am negotiating for both players and affiliates who are hurt by this.

I expect no further news of progress until sometime in the second half of this month.

I will post all progress - please do NOT deluge me with mail, just send me your complaints and check back here for news.

I will contact all injured parties back by mail if and when I need more than the basic information about what happened. So if you see mail from me - it's a good thing.

Cross your fingers!
 
Dominique, I would seriously advise you that these people at Odds On Software are out of time.

To even think about letting this matter fester until sometime in the second half of the month is absolute lunacy.

Cipher
 
Dominique,

You still haven't been able to make contact with Alan? Pierre? Any response at all from anyone on this?

Odds On and Fortyplus are the only ones I see burning bridges here.
 
I am pursuing this in a way that is a bit unusual. I saw an opening and I am going to explore it.

Nothing will happen until the second part of the month, and no pushing can change that.

I am not prepared to talk about what I am doing, and I really don't like the publicity in the first place. But alas, I need players and affiliates to know that there is a possibility of redress so that I can collect cases.

I hope everyone will have submitted their claims by mid month.

Thank you for your understanding - the point here is to try to help the aggrieved parties. A small chance is better than none at all.

I will post news when I have them.

And Bryan - I hope you don't mind my posting about this here. This is Casino Meister land - and I hope I am within your rules.
 
QUOTE
"I am pursuing this in a way that is a bit unusal. I saw an opening and I'm going to explore it."

Least I remind you Dominique there are people involved in this failure of Forty Plus Casino with tens of thousands of dollars at stake and it is time that legal counsel be involved instead of someone who appears to be more concerned about any affiliates that might be "hurt".
 
I agree with you 100% cipher!!
 
Hi Dominique,

I don't think you have to worry about any negotiations being jeopordized here since I was the one who initiated this thread. I only feel that players should be aware that I, and a number of others, are quite frankly miffed at the handling of this matter by Oddson. Please bear in mind that a number of players have "pitched" their "bitches" so to speak here. Probably some of the same who have been contacting you.

As for trusting other Oddson casinos, this is my take:

The Fortyplus casino manager (what a lame name to begin with anyway), decided to market his casino via message boards. This has always drawn up red flags in my mind since most people in the industry are aware that only about 7-10% of the players ever go there: message boards. This seemed to me a bit amaturish, or perhaps the manager/operator was familiar with the boards himself being a member under a different guise or whatever.

He approached me and asked for my rates for being listed here. I sent them before checking him out, but when I realised that he did not have a gaming license (Costa Rican licensed :eek2: ), I turned him down. At this point, it would be the licensing agency who would be answering to the players/software provider.

It seems to me that the Fortyplus manager was inexperienced and financially ill-equipped to run a casino. As opposed to the operations of the English Harbour group, the difference is like night and day.

The English Harbour group has been around since the git-go, so they have a shitload of experience under their belt. So far over the past few years they have managed themselves quite well and are very successful at what they do. I am sure at this point they are infuriated on how Oddson is handling this situation since this is throwing a lot of shit their way that they don't deserve. As for licensing, they have a gaming license from Antigua. There is a certain value to this since there are some controlling factors to maintain this license. The director has a semi-high profile, he is even a member of this forum; so perhaps he is in the loop as to what is going on here.

In a nutshell, I'll be damned if the English Harbor group gets diminished in anyway, and it should behoove Oddson to wake up and do the right thing.
 
Bryan, the weather must be just as lousy in Kuepps as it is here for you to make a weekend appearance so quickly.

As usual, you are right, right, and right again.
I, too, have always held English Harbour in high regard.

As you know, I don't normally get involved in these things unless one of my visitors complains to me, then I help this person.

You mentioned that only a small percentage of players visits the boards - alas - it is so and it makes you wonder how many aggrieved parties are really out there. For that reason, it may well be a good thing that Alan mostly spammed boards to get players. At least it keeps the victim numbers down a little.

That is one of the reasons why I confine myself to my own site as a rule - players wo visit me are often much more naive than those here. They are recreational gamblers, and actually one main problem they have is that they don't understand bonuses at all. They deposit their money, play what they like, and if it's BJ and they win they find out they can't get paid because there was a wr they were not aware of. They don't want to read or count hands or play games they don't like - they just want to play what they like to play and win what they win. The more I write to try to explain about this, the less it gets read. These people lose money owed to them all the time, and there is no recourse for them at all. I believe that is where most all casinos, honest or not, rake in an incredible amount of money they should not. But I have no solution to offer but a total redo of the bonus system, and I digress.

I want to try something a little bit different here, and it is only a little over one more week until midmonth. After I try what I want to try, I will go back home and stay there like a good girl. (yeah, right!)

I won't be spamming your board about this anymore, I just wanted people to know that something is still happening.

Cipher, your remark about affiliates is uncalled for. I am not prejudiced in that way. If there were lizards among the victims, they would also be included. I am not doing this for players and excluding affiliates, nor the other way around. I don't see what difference it makes, if you got screwed you got screwed.

Ok, I will crawl back into my hole now.

Thank you, Bryan, for allowing me to post.
 
Dominique, in no way do I mean to impugn your integrity and if you feel as though I attempted to in anyway you have my sincere apologies.

Dominique I'm from the "OLD SCHOOL" or so to speak when it comes to Casinos and/or Software Providers stealing money "any bodies" money I consider it as though they are ripping me off.

When a circumstance such as this Forty Plus fiasco rears it's ugly head you can take it to the bank that it is not going to be a "fair" fight, as I've learned to come at these Casinos and Software providers with nothing short of OVERWHELMING FORCE, as that's the only thing that they and their attorneys understand. Have a good one.

Cipher
 
Acesjackpot2 has posted on WOL that the entire list of casinos in the ODDS ON stable (which we know are all Englishharbour group) are owned by odds on. I.e. that odds on owns (or are the same owners as) the English harbour group.

This has been suspected from the time that EH moved from MG to Odds on.
 
No offense taken, Cipher! :)

I have been around a while also. I have kept a low profile, although in recent months circumstances and I guess the fact that I'm a feisty old broad have made me a bit infamous in some circles. :eek2: One thing can be said about me: Whether my beliefs are popular or not, I act in accordance with them.

This is an issue I feel strongly about, and I see an opening I hadn't noticed before. So I am going to explore it.

Like I said to Bryan, likely you will get to say "I told you so" and I will put my tail between my legs and endure the bashing sure to follow on the boards.

Portia: You say that Oddson secretly owns the English Harbour Group? I have a feeling Bryan will have something to say to that. I will take a peek at WOL - but I need to get away from all this and get some work done. Forums are addicitive!
 
I think Cipher is right, there can be little in the way of an acceptable excuse for this behaviour or a further delay in the debate.

The pressure should therefore remain on Odds On to sort out this mess their licensee has created by his/her unprofessional conduct and, let's face it lack of integrity in the manner of Forty Plus's closing.

Dominique will continue her unusual exploration anyway, but I do not see how a factual and robust discussion on this issue, including criticism of the closure tactics can affect the reaction of any party she may be talking to. This is not a mindless and crude trashing we are talking about here - it is an examination of facts that do little to credit either the Forty Plus owners or Gagnon & company at OO. And more importantly an attempt to find a way out for the players who have been prejudiced.

So, I for one will continue to publicise the issue and debate the actions (or rather lack thereof thus far) of Odds On.

I do want to draw a distinction regarding English Harbour though. I have been in this business since '96 and I believe EH is on balance a good group that has few black marks against it. I doubt that it is owned by Odds On, but I have an open mind if someone has evidence to support that allegation, and stranger things have happened in this industry.

I do not think EH should be actively prejudiced by these issues players have with folks of lesser integrity like Forty Plus et al, although the temptation to lash out at everything Odds On would be considerable.

Inevitably some of the opprobrium will rub off, but I think that EH will already be taking action to minimise that by working on its software provider behind the scenes to persuade them that their present approach is sheer lunacy in today's market.

I think there is still some merit in Odds On trying for a bail-out for the stiffed players with another operation. And as Cipher reminded us, there should still be Forty Plus monies held on e-processor deposit.

All might be lost to the erstwhile owners of Forty Plus, but it need not necessarily be the case in regard to the owed players and they must be brought to book on this by the most effective means available. Continued exposure of the issue is a good one to start with.
 
I plan on speaking with Pierre Gagnon later today over the phone. He called me last night, but I missed him. Hopefully I'll get some answers to some direct questions.
 
I just got off the phone with Pierre Gagnon, and he is just as upset as most everyone else. Here's why. There is nothing they can do.

Oddson does not own the player database like many other software providers, so they don't have access to it. When forty+ when down, Oddson lost all contact with the casino's backend. They were as shocked as anyone else; first thinking it was some techno screwup. But these guys (Forty+) are gone.

He said they knew the operators, and the people involved with the casino. To up and disappear is a mystery to him. Side note: Forty+ used their own ecash provider.

So what this is boiling down to is that if Oddson could do something, they'd do it. But what?

It's difficult to compare this with any other similar situation. The RTG and MG casinos that have gone tits up were resolved (in most cases) by the software provider since they had a certain amount of control over the player database.

I don't smell a scam on Oddson's part, but I think they didn't properly prepare for something like this. Everyone involved in this sitation, be it Oddson, the players, or the other Oddson casinos, is taking a bite in the fourth point of contact (old paratrooper expression). This is the most unfortunate thing of all.
 
Thanks for the update Bryan, Odds On Software had a fiduciary responsibility to insure that the people they granted license to were both reputable and financially solid.

Did Pierre tell you who the owners of Forty Plus Casino were and/or where they might have taken off to?
 
I'm sorry, but this doesn't ring true for me. And if it was, it sets a very dangerous precedent for the players if other providers see this sort of "we know nothing" approach working.

Is Gagnon saying he had no access to verify the royalties due?

And perhaps he should say who are the owners in view of the fact that they have so abused his trust?

I cannot believe that an experienced provider like Gagnon could be suckered to this extent - the lack of even primary monitoring he is suggesting amounts to commercial negligence.

Did he say which processor Forty+ was allegedly using? He must have known that! I am finding huge difficulty accepting that they conveniently seem to know nothing about anything.

OK - if he wants to do something how about this:

1) Issue a public statement and answer legitimate media questions fired at him already.

2) Disclose who the Forty + e-processor was so we can verify that and the players can get a holding injunction on any future deposit payouts.

3) Disclose the identity of the owners. Even if Gagnon does not intend to pursue them legally I know of several players who will.

4) Talk to EH (as his sole remaining licensee) and at least try and organise a lifeline so the players have an opportunity to recoup something. And the WT should be reasonable.
 
Hmm.. Regardless whether Gagnon has access to the player databases or not, that does not absolve Odds-on of all responsibility. Bryan, you have our complaints logged and the amounts owed are listed. If need be we (the players) can confirm this via neteller logs, either by neteller sending them to you with our consent or by whatever means satisfy all parties. If Gagnon is truly upset about this and wants to do the right thing, and I believe he does judging from your last post, then negotiations are still possible with you as (I presume) an acceptable mediator by all parties. Odds-on will have to cough up our deposits if they want to be absolved of this, otherwise the shitstorm will continue and will cost them a lot more in the long run.
 
This came in last night from English Harbor which they requested that I post here:

We at EH New Ventures feel it necessary to acknowledge recent comments being directed towards the English Harbour group of casinos as a result of the unfortunate demise of Forty Plus Casino, a former licensee of Odds On.

Though we understand the anger and frustration felt by those who have been hurt by the closing of Forty Plus Casino and regret the position that they are left in, it is important to note that this situation has nothing to do with our operation.

We continue to rely, with confidence, on OddsOns software for our players.

And hi Pioneer, welcome to the forum. I think anything is possible at this point. I certainly believe that some sort of negotiations/suggestions/deals can be made. I just think that it may be too early to figure out exactly what it might be right now. The main problem is the player database. The Neteller way you suggest may be a good way to get started though. I'm in the process of running some suggestions by Oddson at the moment.
 
If all else fails claim ignorance?

God forbid they be telling the truth..

Oddson Software is flawed because any old mug can open up a casino with the Oddson software then walk with no recourse - this info is now public ?

I think a LOL is in order.

Hence possibly only the EH firms are to be trusted because Alledgedly Oddson run them?

Cornered themselves themself.

Captured.

(Message edited by amandajm on December 10, 2003)
 
Given the most recent posts from Odds On Software et al, I've got to say that I don't know how anyone could place any measure of confidence in anything Odds On software has to say or god forbid any of their licensees including ENGLISH HARBOR.

What has come about as a result of the Forty Plus Casino melt down is nothing short of criminal neglect and for Odds On Software to continue to perpetrate this obvious fraud on the various forums makes it even worse.

Lastly, I would seriously suggest that ENGLISH HARBOR post their own statements so that they have no room to argue later on that they (ENGLISH HARBOR) did or did not post something. Have a good one.

Cipher
 
Hi Cipher,

English Harbour can post through me or either on their own. Don't worry, this is a moderated board.

The posting that I made in their behalf is theirs, no doubt about it.
 
FORTY PLUS ROW GATHERS MOMENTUM

Is Odds On owned by English Harbour?

Player outrage grew this week as the unusual circumstances surrounding the failure of Forty Plus Casino continued to come to light, with questions being asked about the relationship that software provider Odds On has with its only surviving licensee the English Harbour group.

Just over two weeks back Forty Plus Casino made an unannounced and abrupt departure, leaving unpaid players in its wake. CEO George Finley and Casino Manager Alan Roberts vanished and ignored all emails, having assured players in the preceding weeks that their overdue payouts would be honoured.

The turnkey provider for Forty Plus is Odds On, but astonishingly this Toronto-based company and its CEO Pierre Gagnon issued no public or private player communications in the weeks following the casino's failure. And attempts over the past week or more by InfoPowa to get comment and answers to legitimate questions regarding this affair were ignored.

Players were not prepared to allow the matter to lie unanswered, however and the main message boards were soon filled with indignant posts and persistent claims that Odds On and its sole surviving licensee English Harbour, together with e-processor Virtual Exchange and EC Exchange and marketing outfit IP Marketing had a common ownership bond.

And it appears from information that is still coming in that this relationship requires more explanation.

With the message boards bristling, this week Gagnon sallied out from behind his wall of silence. But it was not to make a public statement. Instead he made a private telephone call to Bryan Bailey, webmaster of the Casinomeister portal in which he made the astounding claim that Odds On accepted no responsibility because it had no access to the casino backend, had not known what was going on at its licensee, did not know where the owners had gone and was in any case merely the software supplier.

Gagnon also claimed to Bailey that he had no information regarding the financial status of Forty Plus because the casino had used an e-processor independent of Odds On's usual supplier for this critical service. Cynics immediately asked how Odds On kept track of its Royalty dues if it did not know what was happening at its licensee.

Perhaps concerned at the escalating issue, English Harbour then posted widely across the industry that it was in no way connected with Forty Plus Casino, but that it had confidence in Odds On as its software supplier. When asked to explicitly deny or confirm any common ownership connections with Odds On in order to allay rampant speculation, the casino group inexplicably remained silent.

As we went to press some surprising and as yet unconfirmed information was coming in from a variety of sources, and efforts to track down the Forty Plus owners without the cooperation of Odds On continued.

In today's industry the "we're just the software provider" approach is an unacceptable cop-out as far as online gamblers are concerned, and the player community expects providers to stand behind and properly monitor the conduct of their licensees. At the very least Odds On should have communicated with the players and investigated the possibilities of arranging a bailout for them through another casino.

Odds On has seen several licensees fail, among them Vegas Player which appeared around July 2002 and by October had disappeared, re-emerging in December under new iCrystal software as part of Gambling Federation. It is understood that Odds On eventually assisted players in that closure.

Another contentious failure was Casino 388 that reportedly did not give players the courtesy of payment when it folded. There was a warning at that time on 'Gambling Grumbles' which after a long struggle gave the case up as hopeless.

Unless some radical re-thinking on this matter takes place at Odds On, the damage to reputation is likely to be substantial, and future consumer resistance to their product cannot be ruled out.
 
Casino388 stopped paying players a couple of years ago but months later someone else took over the casino and payments were made that were owed to players (including me) by the old management. I'm not sure if the same thing happened when it finally closed (whenever that was).

Maybe English Harbour will take over FortyPlus because they seem to have taken over all the other Odds On casinos. The original Celebrity Players Inc. Odds On casinos have disappeared or changed ownership to EH (SuperSlots is now owned by English Harbour and I think MillionaireCasino is too). I cashed out over $400 at 40+ recently after I first heard reports they weren't paying and I haven't been paid either.
 
Hi All,

If possible, I'd like to collect the player complaints via the "Pitch a Bitch" https://www.casinomeister.com/player-arbitration-pab/ So far I only have eight complaints totaling $12,000. This will give me a sense of the severity of this "problem" and a record of accounts in case a light at the end of the tunnel is detected.
 
Thanks everyone who lodged their complaints. So far I have a total of 10 complaints totaling approxinately $12,000.

This is not as severe as many people had thought. Gambler's Lobby's downfall totaled around $15,000 or so, but then they had a larger player base.

The most severe thing is that so far, Oddson has not made any public announcement, etc. Which is extremely disappointing. There needs to be a source of resolution here...and it's not too late.
 
I'm afraid I must disagree and say that the gravity of this situation lies not in the number of players screwed who have complained at this site (not even one player should have been screwed) but in the appalling behaviour that Gagnon/Forty Plus continues to exhibit.

These guys have issued no public announcement or message board posting to tell the players left stranded by Forty Plus what is going on or even that Forty Plus had closed and the crew had done a runner. That's over three weeks down the line and...nothing.

They have not informed players, and as far as anyone is aware made any attempt to throw a lifeline or accept any responsibility whatsoever for the failure of one of their licensees, or even tell players that they were considering such a course of action. In fact the hearsay report shows them actively rejecting any obligation.

They have not cooperated in any way whatsoever with players trying to track down the criminals who dumped Forty Plus and its clients so unfairly and unceremoniously. Neither have they announced their own course of action against the perpetrators of the Forty Plus fraud.

They have not answered widespread speculation regarding their alleged ownership links with English Harbour group.

All we have from this supposedly professional operation (which has a few hiccoughs in its past) is a hearsay and unlikely story that they knew nothing at all about what was going on at their licensee.

This does not illustrate a high degree of integrity or professionalism as things stand at present, IMHO.
 
I'm not saying that this wasn't severe. My first thoughts were that bucket loads of players would be pouring out of the woodwork screaming "Fraud!" So far it hasn't been that many.

But you are right, and I agree, that Oddson has not handled this well. In fact, this is a prime example on what NOT to do when it comes to failure of a licensee.

Honestly, I don't get it. Why don't they feel that it is important enough to inform players on what is going on. A public press release would have been the minimum. Sheesh! Their writing team could have written one for them over the weekend!

Where is it????
 
I suspect that they know their conduct to date is inexcusable (just look again at the summary of their complete lack of action posted above), and that they are worried that by saying something they are in some way acknowledging a moral obligation they have no intention of honouring.

I think they may also be concerned that if they put their heads up over the ramparts they may face a barrage of questions that they are unwilling to answer for reasons best known to themselves. And maybe these Toronto based fellows are a little gunshy of the Canadian authorities, too?

They may also be making the biggest mistake of all - listening to overly-cautious lawyers who would rather say nothing and see a reputation shot to shreds rather than risk a statement of any kind or moves to help the screwed players obtain deserved satisfaction.

Or they might just be plain, goddamned crooks who don't give a fig about the players who have been defrauded by one of their licensees!

Who knows? All we can judge Odds On and its friends by is their actions....and there haven't been too many positive efforts there thus far.
 
A pity - because this is an issue that imo needs to be well aired and publicised Until the right thing is done.
 
Looks like the players who are/were awaiting payment may be paid via an interested third party. For those of you who have filed a complaint via Casinomeister, check your in box; I've requested additional information that needs to be acted upon ASAP. So far, half of you have responded.

If there are any other stragglers out there who haven't yet filed a complaint via the "Pitch a Bitch" section...now's the time to act.
 
I've suggested over at WOL and elsewhere that any stiffed Forty Plus player who wants to get paid comes to Casinomeister and fills in a Pitch A Bitch form for Bryan.

This way we can get a better handle on the extent of this fraud, and Casinomeister makes a convenient central collection depot for complaints.

If a third party who is not directly involved in this mess can look after the players (and kudos to him or her for that) then why can't Odds On?

This is going to make Pierre Gagnon and Odds On...and maybe even English Harbour group - look even worse if it comes about.

And there could be some mainstream media coverage on this shocking affair in the near future, too.
 
Jetset,

I agree with you 101%!

In my opinion, OddsOn should make things right with the jilted players. And according to their own website, if I understand it correctly, they DO have all the information in the data base of all activities at every casino that uses their software. It is THEIR server that keeps that for their casinos to have access to. Not the other way around. Did I read and understand that correctly??

So if that is correct, why say they don't? And just ignore this?
 

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