Finsoft/Spielo G2 Games Issue

[Przecinek]

Well the way I read the rules its saying that it has to be simulating, not just using the images.... it does not say "if a player looks at the game and make an assumtion"

I've seen scratch cards where you scratch of two panels if one care beats the other then you win the prize, the card graphic does not in anyway imply that a pack of cards in being used.

The odds don't change when you select a bet do they the odds are constant, but weighted.

I think we're loosing focus here from what is really most disturbing for me as a gambler. If I see number "4" I expect to have a bigger chance of getting 5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12 than getting 3,2 or 1. Simple as that. If the game doesn't respect this most fundamental rule how can we even assume this is "fair" gambling Using card symbols makes thing even worse, but the point is - when I gamble I expect results to be random not skewed and picked from a pool of options that I have not selected. Same goes for slots or any other phantasmagoric symbols that programmers might come up with.

 

[fourwood]

I think we're loosing focus here from what is really most disturbing for me as a gambler. If I see number "4" I expect to have a bigger chance of getting 5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12 than getting 3,2 or 1. Simple as that. If the game doesn't respect this most fundamental rule how can we even assume this is "fair" gambling Using card symbols makes thing even worse, but the point is - when I gamble I expect results to be random not skewed and picked from a pool of options that I have not selected. Same goes for slots or any other phantasmagoric symbols that programmers might come up with.

then you should be playing the physical versions with operators you can trust in countries where gaming is regulated.

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

The Reel Deal game is running from a bet365 data center using TST certified RNG.

The RNG is not the issue at all, it never has been. I was able to reverse engineer the code and would get the same results regardless of the RNG being used (I posted my code earlier in this thread). Using a TST certified RNG makes no difference whatsoever in this situation.

The games at Bet365 don't pay true odds with an RTP of 100% (like at BetFred), so there is no need to gaff the game. For example, the RTP for Red/Black from this picture is 97.5%. I don't have a screen shot for Reel Deal at Bet365, unfortunately.

Using a "TST certified RNG" was the same line that was used by Legends (I believe) on SBRForum after the BLR scandal broke. It was nonsense. They continued to use the BLR rogue software long after.



Compare Bet365's game to the 100% RTP version at BetFred that has been shown to be rogue:

 

[thelawnet]

But that only appliess to games that are attemping to represent a physical simulation

Rubbish, it clearly states

'Hi Lo Gambler is an easy to play game of prediction featuring 12 playing cards.'

12 playing cards.

End of story.

A playing card is a 'physical device'.

 

[thelawnet]

I've already received a report from Bet365 which will be disseminated shortly. The HiLo game is TST certified for both the .dk and .com versions. The Reel Deal game is running from a bet365 data center using TST certified RNG.

More later.

The RNG is irrelevant, you can have a coin flip game that works like this:

Generate random number between 1 and 4
If the number is 1, 2 or 3 the dealer wins
If the number is 4, the player wins

Clearly this is not a fair coin flip, but it's entirely random.

 

[thelawnet]

My understanding thus far is that it has been established that the code was altered prior to distribution, so any casinos that are supplied the game by Finsoft are likely to have an issue. So it depends on how Bet365 got their version.

According to Betfred, above, Finsoft offered them two versions, one where you could alter the payout, which is fair, and which is what Bet365 appear to have done, and another where you could alter the chance of winning, and which is what Betfred have done.

Of course the fact that Finsoft do this makes the software itself untrustworthy at any site, since we have no way of knowing if other games use cards, dice, or whatever, that are weighted.

But on the face of it Bet365 did take the non-cheating version of cheating software.

 

[binary128]

The RNG is not the issue at all, it never has been.

..........

Using a "TST certified RNG" was the same line that was used by Legends (I believe) on SBRForum after the BLR scandal broke. It was nonsense. They continued to use the BLR rogue software long after.

Eliot, your memory is correct.

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, one of the two casinos incriminated in that BLR Tech fiasco, states ...

"Our Casino engine is powered by certified hardware random number generators (RNGs) used by the most respected gaming operations around the world."

...

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to their RNG supplier (a company/product named Quantis RNG).

While this issue played out in the various forums, Legends management could not grasp (refused to grasp? were incapable of grasping? decided not to grasp?) that the corruption contained within their BLR Tech casino had nothing to do with the RNG. The "rigged" aspect of the game was that at certain points during game play (those points which defined a win or a loss) the RNG was simply not being used.

My understanding is that with this problem (the Finsoft/Spielo G2 Games in question) the issue is not that the RNG is not being used, but rather how it is being used. It is game processing code, not the random numbers.

But the bottom line is the same - the corruption of the game has nothing to do with the RNG.

Chris

 

[binary128]

I just checked. Galewind has 2 slots which contain "card" symbols:

1.) Bowl-a-Palooza slot. There are a total of 12 stop symbols in the game, 4 of which are "card" symbols - "A", "K", "Q", and "J".

2.) Take It or Leave It slot. There are a total of 13 stop symbols in the game, 3 of which are "card" symbols - "A", "K" and "Q".

However, I think it would be stretching things (to the breaking point?) to say that anyone expects that there is a deck of cards running behind the game code here.

The documented requirements are trying to address the subjective determination that game play should be significantly intuitive, not confusing. However, when you have a "K" symbol right next to the symbol of a "large breasted woman" with significant decolletage, well ....

Chris

 

[vinylweatherman]

I just checked. Galewind has 2 slots which contain "card" symbols:

1.) Bowl-a-Palooza slot. There are a total of 12 stop symbols in the game, 4 of which are "card" symbols - "A", "K", "Q", and "J".

2.) Take It or Leave It slot. There are a total of 13 stop symbols in the game, 3 of which are "card" symbols - "A", "K" and "Q".

However, I think it would be stretching things (to the breaking point?) to say that anyone expects that there is a deck of cards running behind the game code here.

The documented requirements are trying to address the subjective determination that game play should be significantly intuitive, not confusing. However, when you have a "K" symbol right next to the symbol of a "large breasted woman" with significant decolletage, well ....

Chris

These games look like slots, and so would be expected to behave like them. Players already know that the RTP depends on more things than the paytable and the assumption that each symbol is equally likely.

Even a simple Hi/Lo game with numbers 1 to 12 would be expected to have an equal 1 in 12 chance of each number being selected. We know from primary school that the "pack" contains one of each number, so unless clearly informed otherwise, we would assume that the selection was unweighted. It is not on a pub fruit machine where such Hi/Lo gambles exist, but players expect this from the device they are playing, and it has to be clearly indicated on the machine that there is a non random selection of outcomes.

It's a problem for casinos because outside of the UK, most players expect that games, even slots, are truly random. Non UK players are never going to be convinced that this game is OK with the "right helpfile". UK players are going to feel cheated because they don't expect to find "cheating fruit machines" hiding behind what appears to be a random game online.

 

[Casinomeister]

As a side note, I just want to thank everyone who has been participating in this thread. I've been either out of town (like most of last week) or too busy with a pile of other things to get 100% involved in this. So special thanks go to those who have been contributing their time and brainpower to this convoluted issue.

Anyway, here is Bet365's full response that I had mentioned earlier:

Hi Lo Gambler

- This game is TST certified for both .dk and .com versions of the bet365 operation.

- We have no issues with Hi Lo Gambler, it is performing according to expected RTP.

Reel Deal

- After 1 million game rounds it sits near 96%, which is the expected, long term RTP.

- We are NOT running the same instance as anyone else

- This game is running from a bet365 data centre and using certified RNG devices as all our other games used in bet365.

So as it was mentioned before, the main issue is not the RNG, the original game is a flawed game by design right? Therefore should not be included with the games portfolio via Finsoft or Spielo G2.

 

[ThePOGG]

So as it was mentioned before, the main issue is not the RNG, the original game is a flawed game by design right? Therefore should not be included with the games portfolio via Finsoft or Spielo G2.

I'm really disappointed with that response from Bet365. The RNG is not in question, it's what the game does with the result that is generated. For example i have a RNG designed to select a number at random between 1-26. It functions perfectly, but i assign the numbers to a suit of cards as follow;

1 : A
2-4 : 2
5-7 : 3
8-10 : 4
11-13 : 5
14-16 : 6
17-18 : 7
19-20 : 8
21-22 : 9
23 : T
24 : J
25 : Q
26 : K

Now even through the RNG functions perfectly, the set up of the game uses the RNG results in such a way as to ensure 2-6 turns up 3x as often as T-A, which is a clearly misleading practice. The 'certified RNG' argument is either being used as a safety blanket because they don't actually understand the issue or an attempt to whitewash over the real problem.

Moreover, when you find a cheating game - the one that springs to mind is the SkillOnNet VP double feature - you don't just blacklist that game and assume all the others are fine, you blacklist the entire software provider. The software provider have shown themselves to be untrustworthy and testing each and every one of their games to find the games they haven't rigged would take an unfeasibly long time. I really hope Bet 365 will take another look at this issue and reconsider their stance.

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

Hi Lo Gambler

- This game is TST certified for both .dk and .com versions of the bet365 operation.

- We have no issues with Hi Lo Gambler, it is performing according to expected RTP.

Reel Deal

- After 1 million game rounds it sits near 96%, which is the expected, long term RTP.

- We are NOT running the same instance as anyone else

- This game is running from a bet365 data centre and using certified RNG devices as all our other games used in bet365.

2-to-9 pays 1.46. This bet has RTP = 97.33%
Red/Black pays 1.95. This bet has RTP = 97.50%
JQKA pays 2.93. This bet has RTP = 97.67%
JA pays 5.85. This bet has RTP = 97.50%
A pays 11.7. This bet has RTP = 97.50%

Bet365 should publish the long term and independently audited RTP for Hi-Lo gambler.

 

[thelawnet]

So as it was mentioned before, the main issue is not the RNG, the original game is a flawed game by design right? Therefore should not be included with the games portfolio via Finsoft or Spielo G2.

The game design, or concept, is standard. The issue is with the implementation.

As I understand it Finsoft take game designs, graphics, etc., from other suppliers, and re-implement them.

In this respect there are fair game designs from for instance Orbis, that Finsoft have taken, and rigged in free-play mode.

In terms of the OP's complaint, they have taken a standard, fair game concept, seen on pretty much any Games site and chosen to rig it in real money mode.

The issue is with Finsoft themselves.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

As an aside here, is it just me who feels a bit put off depositing and playing when stuff like this crops up?

I've got cash in my Neteller account ready to go, family tucked up in bed, it would usually be time for another glass of wine and a bit of slotting.

Instead, I think I'll just stick a DVD on. (And get that glass of wine )

As has been said earlier in this thread by several folks, how can we ever know how many games out there are 'gaffed'? Because I can't believe for one second that every cheating game out there actually gets detected.

No doubt I'll be playing again soon enough, but incidents like this do give me pause for thought.

 

[Balthazar]

Why is there even a RNG discussion? That's right up there with the help file smoke screen. Why are these casinos failing to address the "online card games odds vs real life card games odds" discussion when that's really all that matters here?

Your RNG, your "fun mode" and your stated RTP are all secondary issues, the main point is we want to know if you're ok with your casino offering a game with a rigged deck of cards. That's pretty God damn simple to answer. A Yes or a No will do.

 

[mattsgame]

Gamblers are stupid, casinos and software providers thinking gamblers are stupider than stupid is insulting.

Sorry but the responses from 2 ex accredited casinos in this thread really boggles the mind. Has no one got an answer from the actual software provider be it Finsoft or Realistic Games?

 

[me_and_ed]

Gamblers are stupid, casinos and software providers thinking gamblers are stupider than stupid is insulting.

Sorry but the responses from 2 ex accredited casinos in this thread really boggles the mind. Has no one got an answer from the actual software provider be it Finsoft or Realistic Games?

PT Barnum......."There is a sucker born every minute", like it or not, they prey off that principle, maybe not PT's statement but history itself, sadly for the most part we all have to take that "leap of faith" and believe we are being dealt a fair hand, some do deal fair and some dont, but how can the average layman tell?

 

[NordicBet]

Hello everyone,

I'm sorry for the delay. We have now completed our internal investigation and just as already concluded by many others - it was obvious that the game was not acting as it should have. We have reimbursed all losses on HiLo Gambler to all players since we launched the game, on all of our brands.

As I mentioned earlier we have of course removed HiLo Gambler. We have also taken the decision to remove all other games supplied by Finsoft. Those games should be removed early next week.

Rob

 

[aceking123]

thats nice to know someone is doing the right thing ! thankyou rob & nordic bet !

 

[rainmaker]

.

Way to go Nordic

 

[ThePOGG]

Hello everyone,

I'm sorry for the delay. We have now completed our internal investigation and just as already concluded by many others - it was obvious that the game was not acting as it should have. We have reimbursed all losses on HiLo Gambler to all players since we launched the game, on all of our brands.

As I mentioned earlier we have of course removed HiLo Gambler. We have also taken the decision to remove all other games supplied by Finsoft. Those games should be removed early next week.

Rob

Rob that's great new! Well i realise it's never great to find something like this in one of your games, but honest it can only reflect very positively on Nordic Bet when you're the ones to step forward and do the right thing. Big big thumbs up!

 

[Osloking]

This makes really bad taste in my mouth about any online games, this game was "easy" to find by a clever player but what about slots that need few million of spins to find what the RTP really is on their slots? and worst is that some slots dont even give you the real info, like MG. and soon some player really have feeling that they have been cheated they get the tin foil hat slap..

 

[ChopleyIOM]

This makes really bad taste in my mouth about any online games, this game was "easy" to find by a clever player but what about slots that need few million of spins to find what the RTP really is on their slots? and worst is that some slots dont even give you the real info, like MG. and soon some player really have feeling that they have been cheated they get the tin foil hat slap..

It's put me off, for sure.

I didn't deposit last night, and Friday night slotting is basically a calendar appointment for me usually.

Think I'll skip tonight as well.

Let's face it, we're all going to lose in the long run because the casinos have the house edge to start with, if they're going to cheat as well, then I'm out.

 

[just play]

What the case does NOT show, nor imply, is that any other games from any other providers are cheating. Now, I'm sure that others, like yourself, that have always questioned the fairness/randomness of just about every online casino software ever invented, will use this as a springboard to wave the "It's rigged I tells ya!!" flag referencing this issue every time someone tries to explain that the games ARE fair.


Sorry for the derail, but I knew it was only a matter of time before someone put 2 and 2 together and got 69.

Sorry Chop, your wrong, this is the only correct answer, no other opinions matter.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Sorry Chop, your wrong, this is the only correct answer, no other opinions matter.

Well Nifty is entitled to his opinion, and we're entitled to disagree with him

My personal opinion is that for every cheating game that gets called out as has happened here, there must be several more that are never detected.

The game category that worries me most is slots, as slots are what I almost exclusively play online, and they are also the one category of game it's borderline impossible to ever prove cheating behaviour with.

ENTIRELY HYPOTHETICAL EXAMPLE (I am not making any accusation here, but this is the kind of thing that crosses my mind in times like this) - The Mega Jackpot at NetEnt casinos, currently bigger than it ever has been and generating a huge amount of play on the Mega Fortune slot. The more it gets played, the more profit NetEnt makes and the more profit the casinos make.

What's to say someone at NetEnt HQ doesn't just say, 'Hey guys, we're making more money than we ever have done off this slot, the jackpot is bigger than it ever has been, and the money is just rolling in. Set the Mega Jackpot to be impossible to win for the time being, and let it go when it's over twenty million euros. We'll make a barrel load of cash in the meantime, and we'll have the publicity of paying out the biggest online jackpot ever when it's won'.

Tin foil hat brigade stuff? Most likely yes, but there's no way anyone can ever know for sure.

All I can say is that for me, personally, I feel safer keeping the money in my bank account at the moment. The thing that's most disconcerting about this current Finsoft/Spielo disaster zone is the response from two accredited casinos who are both basically saying that as long as the game sticks to its expected RTP there's no problem. The fact the games are deceptive and cheating by design seems to be entirely lost on them.

That's some scary shit right there.

(Plus of course, as Eliot has identified here, what Bet365 are saying the game's RTP is over a million spins doesn't stack up with what its T-RTP actually is from the given odds in the game. Incredible.)