Finsoft/Spielo G2 Games Issue

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I've reinstated Betfred, Bet365, and NordicBet positions on the site. They've all done the right thing by removing the games and squaring away their players - I hope that these operators, and their brethren, will remain adamant on ensuring that the games they are presenting to their customers are fair and have been properly tested.

I think that in cases other than Nordic Bet that may be a bit premature.

Nordic Bet have done the right thing; tested the game, confirmed the issue and then proceeded to disassociate themselves completely from a provider that has been shown to be intentionally cheating.

In Bet 365's case - as things stand right now - they tested the game, but as they were running the non-rigged version the results came back clear for them. Win for Bet 365? Not quite, they're still working with a games supplier that has now been shown to be intentionally cheating.

Betfred are a totally different issue. So far they've denied that there are any issues what-so-ever with the game beyond having the wrong help file (irrelevant). Alongside this they actively tried to justify the problems with the game by openly stating that the game was programmed to cheat. And they've made no moves to distance themselves from a supplier that has now been shown to be intentionally cheating.

I realise that FinSoft are a big group, but their integrity has now been completely compromised. Players shouldn't now be asked to trust venues that continue to provide games from a supplier who has now in multiple instances - remember there's still a huge issue with the free games they provide as well - put out both rigged, misleading and unfair games that would never be acceptable in any well regulated offline jurisdiction and in fact breaches many online regulators licenses (even if the regulators involved do not appear to be willing to enforce those licenses).
 
Well said POGG.

I amazed, saddened, and alarmed - to see that Betfred and Bet365 are back on the accredited list.

It discredits the entire list IMO.

Nordic Bet are the only casino here who have done anything approaching the right thing, although even they are clearly guilty of terrible quality control for ever letting these cheating, fraudulent games onto their books in the first place.
 
So the precedent is that if you are caught cheating and stealing, then it's ok if you simply apologize and give back what you stole? It doesn't work quite like that in the real world.
 
Nordic Bet are the only casino here who have done anything approaching the right thing, although even they are clearly guilty of terrible quality control for ever letting these cheating, fraudulent games onto their books in the first place.

There are really two issues here, cheating and testing.

The cheating issue is fairly clear cut. It's been established where the rig came from and intent has been shown.

The second issue is far more difficult to pin down. Have any casino affected by the rigged version of these games tested them adequately? Obviously not. Does any casino at all test the games they buy in adequately? Other than a few that are directly run by the same group that runs the software provider and perhaps the few operating with EJ's CFG seal, i doubt any of them do. I would hope and press for this issue to be a wakeup call to the industry regarding what is a very poorly thought out standard practice that sells their customers short and jeopardises every casino's reputation, but to take any sort of punitive action against casinos that don't currently test the games they buy in properly would be to all intents and purposes a blanket penalty against the entire industry and as such ineffective.
 
What worries me is this... who at the casinos is 'buying' these games? In the B&M world, the game must pass muster with the gaming authority, and it must also be 'purchased' by someone at the casino (group). I really think it's best if the casino has someone 'in the know' about casino games, the regulations (i.e.: card games must behave as if REAL cards are used, etc.), and be able to examine the workings of a game and tell if it's hinky or not.

Frankly, I would think almost anyone in the industry (and players) who looked at a hi/lo red/black game and saw a 96% payout percentage would instinctively know it was rigged.
 
But to carry on in the same stupid theme, if the floormat people were getting a percentage of every car I sold, or if they were only getting a monthly licensing fee, why should I be the one holding the bag and paying all the burned people while they profited from their substandard product?

Not only that, but because my car company is a big name and nobody's heard of Toasty Tootsie Floormats, everybody now associates charred feet with my car company, and it's MY reputation that's going up in flames. Of course I'm also at fault for not running my own tests, but I'm pretty sure I could find at least 100 lawyers by tomorrow who would be willing to sue the floormat manufacturer on my behalf.

There you go, that's the point right now in the online casinos players/customers side.

And that's why it was implicit on my previous post that far now there's no formal proves of the "non-guilt" of anybody.

In fact, until this moment none the casinos/operators, nor the software providers/designers/transformers companies, involved/nominated in this thread has turned public any initiative conducive to duly clarify whose guilty was this after all.

The explanation of “human error” is always a good "exit" to this kind of situations (I know it by personal experience), because “to make mistakes is human”…
But in legal terms, we also know that "Not knowing the Law is not an excuse/defence in court".

Although I didn’t want to involve myself too much in this matter (and I won’t do it much more), I have to go a bit further:
  • Why haven’t any of the casinos nominated in this thread declared that they will demand their suppliers to come down to the field (the market) and make a statement of guilty, even though alleging it was caused by human error?
  • Why have Betfred made a statement (what the explanation posted here is in formal terms) accusing their supplier Finsoft and, simultaneously excusing that same supplier of any intentional behaviour?
  • And why haven’t Finsoft, and also Real Games (why not) made any declaration, or statement about all this?
  • On the presupposed of the innocence of the nominated casinos, why hasn’t any of them declared they won’t buy/acquire products from Finsoft anymore? Shouldn’t those casinos have lost their confidence in that supplier?

Eliot Jacobson made a few comments very illustrative and at the same time very disturbing about all this through this thread, such as the following (allow me to reproduce some Eliot’s parts of some of his posts):
  1. “This problem is much larger than Betfred. It implicates some of the largest and most well-respected online casinos there are. There is a lot of work to be done here.” (sic, on 4th January);
  2. “I've done what I am willing to do here. This is much bigger than Realistic Games. It involves multiple parties at many levels and is still in the discovery phase. Betfred has been almost entirely non-cooperative. Every other party has been entirely non-cooperative. At this point, there is a growing list of major online casinos that should be considered as potential rogues. None have come forward to address this issue. The one casino caught in the crosshairs (Betfred) has at best directly implicated itself in this fraud. There is a software company that is definitely rogue. There is a software distributor that may be rogue. There is a governmental regulatory agency that is claiming no reponsibility in its oversight obligations. And so on.” (sic, on 6th January)
  3. (About a statement from Betfred: “Finally, during the deployment of the game to Betfred the wrong help file was associated with the game and reported the wrong RTP.”)… “You have now implicated Spielo in outright fraud, and said that you are complicit in it by not offering the right help file. That is, it appears you are saying that Betfred would have been satisfied offering these gaffed products, but for the wrong help file. In other words, Betfred is okay right now, today, with violating UKGC and GRA guidelines. Once the trust is broken that physical and virtual objects should behave the same, Betfred has violated the essential foundation on which its business is built. The player will no doubt question every virtual object at Betfred, whether its cards, dice, a roulette wheel, etc. Surely you must realize the magnitude of this breach.” (sic, on 7th January)

Final thought…
Besides removing the rigged games (something that not happening would be considered the perpetration of an illegal action) and indemnifying the players by reimbursement of deposits (this is another dubious matter…), the allegedly involved casinos seem to me not very worried to the consequences of this process; they all have been withdrawn from the Accredited list here at CM and none of them has then declared the intention of trying to come back.
And now that Bryan has included them back again on that list of accreditation... what will they have to be fear about now?
 
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There are really two issues here, cheating and testing.

The cheating issue is fairly clear cut. It's been established where the rig came from and intent has been shown.

The second issue is far more difficult to pin down. Have any casino affected by the rigged version of these games tested them adequately? Obviously not. Does any casino at all test the games they buy in adequately? Other than a few that are directly run by the same group that runs the software provider and perhaps the few operating with EJ's CFG seal, i doubt any of them do. I would hope and press for this issue to be a wakeup call to the industry regarding what is a very poorly thought out standard practice that sells their customers short and jeopardises every casino's reputation, but to take any sort of punitive action against casinos that don't currently test the games they buy in properly would be to all intents and purposes a blanket penalty against the entire industry and as such ineffective.

A bit wary of joining in what is clearly a hot topic, but wanted to ask why would Betfred use a middleman (Finsoft) if they can buy direct from Realistic? Where is the added value?

I must admit, pretty appalled there isnt part of the regulatory framework that ensures comprehensive fairness checks are performed immediately upon launch and any update to the games files.

I have knitted sweaters with less holes than the framework "protecting" us :/
 
My question is what repercussions/ sanctions/ penalties will Finsoft face? Is this enough to finish them off for good? There is no room in this industry for off coulour operators like this and I for one hope they get shuttered.
No idea. I couldn't speculate on this one.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but didn't both Betfred and Bet365 say they had no problem with the fundamental design of the games? i.e. They're cheating weighted card games.

Betfred's last post on the subject was this - https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/finsoft-spielo-g2-games-issue.54475/

To me, that says they just don't understand what's wrong here.

Yes they may have removed the games, but as Eliot said here - https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/finsoft-spielo-g2-games-issue.54475/
From what I understand, it's an issue with the software- not some corrupt casino operator - and perhaps some of the operators did not fully understand what Eliot stated earlier (the basic fundamentals of the game), but from what I can tell these three operators have done what was to be expected.

All three casinos have stepped forward - removed the game, and stated that they were reimbursing the affected players. What more do you want? How is tar and feathering an operator for a skewed game an appropriate response? Especially when the operator admits that yes, the game was not acceptable - made amends, and has stated that players affected would be reimbursed.

To say that this discredits the Accred section is off target - in fact that's a pretty cheap shot. With that logic I might as well remove any casino that is licensed in Gibraltar, Malta, and the UKGC since these folks are to blame just as well. Pressure should be put on the licensing jurisdictions and operators to ensure there are no "holes" open that can accommodate a cheating game.

Most webmasters like myself recognize that this is/was a software issue - not an issue that has to do with the ethics of the casino operator, or their treatment of players. Looks like a number of you feel differently about this.
 
All three casinos have stepped forward - removed the game, and stated that they were reimbursing the affected players. What more do you want?

......

Most webmasters like myself recognize that this is/was a software issue - not an issue that has to do with the ethics of the casino operator, or their treatment of players. Looks like a number of you feel differently about this.

I'd agree that this is a software issue and a software provider that have deliberately set games to cheat. But if i catch a checkout cashier lifting from the till i don't then put them back in charge of cash - i fire their ass. FinSoft/Spielo G2 have behaved unethically and intent has been shown so to say that it's fine for casinos just to remove the games we know are affected and we'll assume all their other games are ok seems a very odd POV. If they've been caught intentionally cheating, advising player that they can trust their other games seems illogical.
 
From what I understand, it's an issue with the software- not some corrupt casino operator - and perhaps some of the operators did not fully understand what Eliot stated earlier (the basic fundamentals of the game), but from what I can tell these three operators have done what was to be expected.

I think the section I highlighted above is indicative of a separate, yet similarly disturbing issue-many of the operators are marketing-driven and don't know why certain actions are unethical.

I once had a play money session on a casino's roulette game where I couldn't miss a bet on their roulette table. I instantly knew that it had to be gaffed for play money. The only thing I couldn't be 100% certain of was whether it was an unscrupulous operator or an ignorant marketer that was responsible :confused:
Either way, I knew that I didn't want to spend real money on their product. :puke:

In the absence of any kind of 'angry fist of god' type of punitive measures from regulator(s) with teeth, backbone, balls, etc., nothing significant will change.
How many people at the software and/or casino level are as knowledgeable and as open as Chris from Galewind (binary128)?
Based on Chris' posts and the way Galewind operates, they're either the gold-standard or the biggest con-job ever (I'm on the gold-standard side, of course:thumbsup:)
 
[*] On the presupposed of the innocence of the nominated casinos, why hasn’t any of them declared they won’t buy/acquire products from Finsoft anymore? Shouldn’t those casinos have lost their confidence in that supplier?

NordicBet did pull ALL games by this supplier. Plus, we don't know what's going on behind the scenes - both BetFred and Bet365 may both have people rigorously testing all the games from that supplier as we speak and may not be all that interested in airing what may turn out to be extremely dirty laundry in public.

I don't know, of course - but I'd like to think that the management of those casino aren't trusting enough to think that this kind of tweaking only affected one or two games.
 
NordicBet did pull ALL games by this supplier. Plus, we don't know what's going on behind the scenes - both BetFred and Bet365 may both have people rigorously testing all the games from that supplier as we speak and may not be all that interested in airing what may turn out to be extremely dirty laundry in public.

I don't know, of course - but I'd like to think that the management of those casino aren't trusting enough to think that this kind of tweaking only affected one or two games.

This tread troubles me... :(

If the casinos have tested/are testing the games (all games?), i hope they will make atleast some of the results either public (in here at CM or on their sites?) or give all the propper information to some1 every1 trust who will understand & make some (all?) of it known in here!
 
I'm posting because I have "inside data". By that I do not mean "hidden data", or "secret data", just "inside data".

So, some data. (If some of this is a repeat, then sue me.)

Galewind Software started working with Certified Fair Gambling (CFG, Eliot Jacobson) in February 2009. He performed extensive statistical analysis of our game results, and has continued to do so each month since April 2009.

We obtained an RNG Certificate from CFG in early 2009. We then obtained an RNG Certificate from iTech Labs in June 2010 and again in October 2011 (because of their international accreditations).

We obtained our AGCC Core Services Associate Certificate in June of 2012. Doing this involved 2 different companies:

1. The SQS Group (sqs.com). They performed the analysis/critique/confirmation of all of our games and all of the help files, as well as the analysis/critique/confirmation of our "Administration & Control" systems. In doing this they referred to, and relied on, our iTech Labs RNG Certificate, as well as the 3+ years of statistical game analysis from CFG. (In other words, SQS did not analyze our RNG, and SQS did not do a 1-million game sample analysis of each and every one of our games.)

2. The AGCC (gamblingcontrol.org). A representative/employee of the AGCC flew to one of our offices. They verified that we exist, that I and two of the other developers that work out of that office know our ass from a hole in the ground concerning software, hardware and programming. (The AGCC representative was very experienced in software, as with me going back to Fortran on punch cards for IBM mainframes.) They reviewed corporate tax returns and other corporate documents going back to 2007. They reviewed my personal tax records going back to 2007, as well as the personal tax records of the 3 other Galewind employees that were at this meeting. They also performed "background checks" on our 6 "principals". (One of them, to our never-ending amusement, came back with a false positive for a drug bust in Northern New England.)


So, our company's history of certifications started from the bottom up - RNG certification --> Statistical Game Certification --> Company Certification. In total 4 different companies were involved.


Completion of data. The rest is just speculation and opinion.


If we didn't start from the bottom up, then I do not know what the AGCC audit would have looked like. They may have first required that we obtain an RNG Certificate, then submit large samples (either in one whack or obtained over many months) of each game for statistical analysis (to CFG, or iTech, or TST, or somebody like that). Only then would the AGCC/SQS audit have taken place.


In our case, Pinnacle Sports is a "sole source Casino" - Galewind Software. If this situation happened with Pinnacle, I suspect:

1. Pinnacle would pay all affected players.

2. Pinnacle would then send us the bill.

3. Pinnacle would then call us on the carpet. (There are a lot of very smart people at Pinnacle.) If the problem arose because we screwed up, we might be fired, we might not. If the problem arose because we were something less than ethical, we would be fired, and I suspect that we would also be sued by Pinnacle.


I agree that the first point of responsibility lies with the Casino. If the Casino does not do the "right thing" regarding the Players, then the responsibility falls to the licensing authority, which it seems to me should have the authority to shut the Casino down, and in relatively short order. (In our case, whether the AGCC would cascade down to SQS I don't know, but perhaps that may be true. However, I do not believe that the AGCC can defer or delegate the "top level" responsibility.)

If the Casino does do the "right thing" regarding the Players, then I expect that the scenario I've mapped out above concerning Pinnacle and Galewind would play out. However, I can't imagine that it would cascade from us down to either CFG or iTech Labs. The buck stops at Galewind - we have the ultimate responsibility.


Over the years Galewind has considered then turned down several licensees. One of the "problems" is that with Galewind you don't just get the Casino, you also get the "Galewind Ethos". (So, whether the potential licensee turned us down, or we turned them down, is a point of debate. Either way, the "Galewind Ethos" was an impediment.)

We've also turned down several other licensees because we were, hmm, "disappointed" in the skills/abilities/experience of the people with whom we were assigned to work.

Interestingly, (ironically?) we've also turned down a few because we did not see ourselves as being "just another horse in the stable".

I can say that this kind of shit rocks me down to the soles of my shoes. We're a small company, and we're going to get "lumped in" to that group of companies that seems to be the frequent source of this kind of crap.

Chris
 
A bit wary of joining in what is clearly a hot topic, but wanted to ask why would Betfred use a middleman (Finsoft) if they can buy direct from Realistic? Where is the added value?

They can't buy these games from Realistic. Realistic's own platform consists of about a dozen slots and three table games, but not I think these games, which are only supplied through Finsoft.

These games are sold by Realistic to Finsoft who then market their own offering which consists of about 100 arcade-type games from multiple suppliers to the casinos.

Clearly it's more attractive to buy a platform containing games from four or five suppliers as Finsoft did,r ather than deal with all the individual companies separately.
 
NordicBet did pull ALL games by this supplier. Plus, we don't know what's going on behind the scenes - both BetFred and Bet365 may both have people rigorously testing all the games from that supplier as we speak and may not be all that interested in airing what may turn out to be extremely dirty laundry in public.

I don't know, of course - but I'd like to think that the management of those casino aren't trusting enough to think that this kind of tweaking only affected one or two games.

The problem is that while testing is all fine and well and may turn up no further issues right now, this provider has already shown a willingness to release games onto the market that breach the basic tenants of fair electronic gambling and any update in the future can repeat the same process. The necessary requirement would be complete testing of all of their games on a regular bases from this point on. And that's assuming that the mentioned casinos are testing all FinSoft games now, which to my mind is stretching the bounds of possibility. If they are doing this then they should be laying it out in the open to show their customers who's faith has rightfully been shaken the lengths they are going to to repair the damage.
 
I'm posting because I have "inside data". By that I do not mean "hidden data", or "secret data", just "inside data".

We obtained our AGCC Core Services Associate Certificate in June of 2012. Doing this involved 2 different companies:
<rest snipped>

I have dealt with the AGCC and they did not follow their own documented procedures.

They are slightly better than Malta in terms of probity, but ultimately no player should confuse these 'regulators' for consumer protection bodies, they are not, and it is dangerous to assume that any given regulator will operate fairly.
 
I am in no position to know the internal auditing that takes place at casinos like Betfred, Bet365, Nordic Bet and others. However, it seems clear that no internal auditing took place that compared actual RTPs to theoretical RTPs for these games. This is not a small problem. Third party auditing should be taking place that routinely checks casino games for biases and RTPs. These audits may not catch every issue, but at least they show a good faith effort by the casino.

I am not sure about the ongoing audits that eCogra and TST conduct for the clients who bear their seals. I hope their audits routinely check RTPs and conduct statistical tests. In visiting Betfred, Bet365 and Nordic Bet, I did not notice either of these seals or the seal of any other third-party auditing company. If their games are being audited by a third-party, the name of the auditing company should be publicly available.

My client list includes Galewind Software and Pinnacle Casino. Chris has is the most fierce advocate of game fairness I have had the pleasure to do business with. Unfortunately, I have also had clients who have asked me to audit games that I determined to be rogue during the audit. This has happened twice. In the first case, I was never paid. In the second case, the client asked for their deposit back for the audit after I refused to certify their software. In neither case was I able to disclose the client's name. But those companies that bear the CFG seal have routine deep audits. If I didn't trust their software, my seal wouldn't be there.

My opinion is that this case is still too early for conclusions to be reached about some of the named casinos. There is an ongoing investigation by the GRA and there is a news reporter who is investigating this issue and may publish an article soon. At the very least, these investigations should conclude before any reinstatement are made.
 
How many people at the software and/or casino level are as knowledgeable and as open as Chris from Galewind (binary128)? Based on Chris' posts and the way Galewind operates, they're either the gold-standard or the biggest con-job ever.

Agreed. (I swear to God, she said she was 18.)

(I'm on the gold-standard side, of course. :thumbsup: )

Me too :)

Thanks Scooter7.

Chris

[Edited to add: Actually, I'm too old for that 18-year old crack. First of all, the experience would probably kill me. And secondly, 40-year olds look mighty good to me.]
 
I have dealt with the AGCC and they did not follow their own documented procedures.

They are slightly better than Malta in terms of probity, but ultimately no player should confuse these 'regulators' for consumer protection bodies, they are not, and it is dangerous to assume that any given regulator will operate fairly.

I have provided what data I have. I have no other personal data/experience with which to address your statements.

As I said (somewhere), the Full Tilt Poker fiasco is etched into the tablets of history. As I also said (somewhere), Pinnacle/Galewind has never had a complaint escalate beyond Pinnacle's Customer Service (assisted by Galewind and CFG).

You may be right. My personal experience allows me to speculate that you are wrong, but I put up front that this is speculation.

Chris
 
Agreed. (I swear to God, she said she was 18.)



Me too :)

Thanks Scooter7.

Chris

[Edited to add: Actually, I'm too old for that 18-year old crack. First of all, the experience would probably kill me. And secondly, 40-year olds look mighty good to me.]


I'm not old enough for an 18 year-old...still need to get married and divorced before I can get the sports car and the young girlfriend :)

I've been in a position where I was the moral compass of a casino in an emerging market. I regularly had to defend against business types that asked for things that, on the surface, may have seemed reasonable, but from a casino point of view were flat-out wrong. Short-term profits can't be maximized by using long-term techniques in the casino world, so you're obviously (to me) in it for the long haul with your callous disregard for a quick buck. :lolup:
 
NordicBet did pull ALL games by this supplier. Plus, we don't know what's going on behind the scenes - both BetFred and Bet365 may both have people rigorously testing all the games from that supplier as we speak and may not be all that interested in airing what may turn out to be extremely dirty laundry in public.

I don't know, of course - but I'd like to think that the management of those casino aren't trusting enough to think that this kind of tweaking only affected one or two games.

Removing the games that have been supplied by Finsoft is not a measure that assures the players fairness in the coming future.

Please note that the declaration from Nordicbet was:
Hello everyone,

I'm sorry for the delay. We have now completed our internal investigation and just as already concluded by many others - it was obvious that the game was not acting as it should have. We have reimbursed all losses on HiLo Gambler to all players since we launched the game, on all of our brands.

As I mentioned earlier we have of course removed HiLo Gambler. We have also taken the decision to remove all other games supplied by Finsoft. Those games should be removed early next week.

Rob

So, the correct business decision and the one that would give confidence to the players should have stated something like: "until the not intentional intervention and behaviour of Finsoft is proven, we (Nordicbet, in this case) will not acquire, nor will offer/make available any game from that supplier in our casino".
This kind of statement would be not only correct in a trading way, but also would clearly demonstrate the position of the aforementioned casino in what regards the non-participation in any part of the process, between the conception/design of the games and making them available to the public/players.
Of course this applies to all the involved casino operators.

This is what my experience taught me anyway and maybe I'm now being just too sceptical about all this.
But one thing I know, in a very competitive business as this online gambling industry seems to be, I'm feeling not very comfortable for the "lightness" of the declarations.

Sorry, but we are talking here about possible frauds and, if these will be proved, we will be talking about the consequent illegalities.
 
I think that in cases other than Nordic Bet that may be a bit premature.

Nordic Bet have done the right thing; tested the game, confirmed the issue and then proceeded to disassociate themselves completely from a provider that has been shown to be intentionally cheating.

Maybe I've been a little distracted (the thread is constructively long and I might have skipped some pages), but could you please let me know where you saw that written, or from what statement, or declaration have you inferred that?
 
Well said POGG.

I amazed, saddened, and alarmed - to see that Betfred and Bet365 are back on the accredited list.

It discredits the entire list IMO.

Nordic Bet are the only casino here who have done anything approaching the right thing, although even they are clearly guilty of terrible quality control for ever letting these cheating, fraudulent games onto their books in the first place.

I agree with that part:)
 
You quoted it in your last message. I appreciate that the wording may not be strong enough for you, but it is for me. If i was to find that NB were again using FinSoft in the future then i would revoke that support, but for as long they do not offer any games from this provider i consider them to have taken the right action ;)
 
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