Explosions in Manchester

[ternur]

The fact and it is a fact is the majority of terrorist attacks that kill people are in the name of Islam. [...]

That's way too narrow view of terrorism. Social and political context can't be ignored if there is a serious discussion about causes of terrorism. I believe Arun Kundnani has stated that: "the official narrative implies that, once an individual has adopted an extremist religious ideology, terrorism will result, irrespective of the political context or any calculation on the part of an organisation or social movement."

Also, if a muslim commits an criminal terrorism act, it is viewed differently by the media and policy makers: again Kundnani's words: "political violence committed by Muslims is interpreted as symptomatic of a wider clash of values and identity, political violence from the far Right has been downplayed and interpreted as a matter of “lone wolves” operating outside of any broader enabling environment."

You also can't leave out foreign policy decisions.

Like always, when heinous criminal acts like this happen, sensible people are shocked and outraged. And rightly so. There's no excuse or acceptable justification for terrorism. But in a civil society, we should be able to freely discuss all aspects of terrorism. It's not easy to do so, when these acts happen in your doorsteps or you or someone you know is killed or hurt.

But rather than making the discussion of causality an issue of faith, more comprehensive approach is needed. There are studies indicating that in many cases religion or ideology of a terrorist is thin and superficial.

The media reporting in general mostly follows the current official narrative (which ever it may be). And that's creating more problems than offering solutions IMO.

 

[goatwack]

Islam is beyond any form of criticism or debate, our police, media and leaders have given it a cloak of immunity that no one dare challenge for fear of being labelled a racist or hate merchant.

No progress will ever be made if no civil, constructive discussion can be had about the outdated ideology contained within the Quran, and how its core values need to be brought into line with modern life- starting within the Muslim community.

Tolerance, diversity and solidarity is supposed to mean just that, so whilst in a democratic society Muslims leaders should take the lead in weeding out the individuals that do so much to deface Islam in western society.

 

[spintee]

Islam is beyond any form of criticism or debate, our police, media and leaders have given it a cloak of immunity that no one dare challenge for fear of being labelled a racist or hate merchant.

No progress will ever be made if no civil, constructive discussion can be had about the outdated ideology contained within the Quran, and how its core values need to be brought into line with modern life- starting within the Muslim community.

Tolerance, diversity and solidarity is supposed to mean just that, so whilst in a democratic society Muslims leaders should take the lead in weeding out the individuals that do so much to deface Islam in western society.

I repeat just take a look at Tony Robinson free speacth on you tube, He is not a racist creature every body makes him out to be let alone the shit he has hat to Indore

The police and government does not want to let us soscitey know whats going on, No1 as its been mentioned its due to religion and racist yet they let people stand out side temple telling people what and what they cannot do, again look at you tube.

If the true reality come out than people would be WTF its that all about when theses animals get arrested (or when) no media is informed and this is why it all goes noticed, and if you see what I said on you tube than you will know most media is baned from such court case that goes on on a regular basis,

I swear on my budget for spins I could right a book about this crap and it would be only 1 day of my life. I know Muslims I know Hindu and sikh, my mum live in an asian cuminty and not as so much a cuminty no more but there you go. Opposite her is a white women turned Muslim, now we all know what happen to the last white women that turned muslim or should I say white wido if I am alowed, Takes me two secs to sort things out BUT You cannot take all theses people as bad, yet 99% of them know the score

I do not think this is the place to talk about this stuff or we all get banned which in fairness this is a casino place albeit we do get banned for speaking casino but thats the boss's rules, So to cut storys short if any body has a link (and with the boss permission) we move this some where else

I thank you guys as I not the best word & writer but I going to have a beer and let some religon try stooping that one

 

[Dinahnana]

I watched a documentary on this last night and it seems the terrorist and his father has been on the radar in the past. The father for extremist views in Syria and the terrorist for his repeated trips to fight in Syria. If I recall this is the second time in the last few years that terrorists were on the radar of British intelligence but were allowed to commit gross acts of terrorism. Remember the Drummer Rigby case? His murderers were on the radar. It seems to me that the intelligence services keeps dropping the ball and need to be more proactive in protecting the public from people with extremist views. Chances are that these people could act on these views as history has shown us thus far. I will say that these zealots only represent a small portion of the Muslim community and we must remember that.

P.S. Forgot to add that the one of the big leaders of ISIS is a British citizen and was allowed to travel to Syria in order to join his cronies a few years ago. He should have been in jail.

 

[paul7388]

Was not going to comment on this thread as my opinions on muslims terrorists etc. are better kept to myself not something to get into a heated debate about.

The one thing that keeps coming up about any attacks tho are that the culprits were on the radar so why were they not stopped and how the police and government etc should not have allowed them .

Sorry but theres no way these attacks can all be stopped even if the government have suspicions about the attackers and even if we had 20000 more police officers.

Theres literally thousands and thousands in britain alone getting monitored and under suspicion. But until they actually commit a crime or there is evidence they are going to then there is nothing that can be done. You cannot watch every single person in the country 24/7 for years because you feel they may commit an attack.

Maybe it would be good to round up everyone on the at risk list and lock them all up. But theres no way that will ever happen as we still live in a country that says you are innocent until proven guilty and take that away and theres nothing left.

Also there is is still other terror threats to this country other than muslim ones. Only last year i was in belfast for the 12th of July with my son when all the hotels were evacuated and the bomb disposal units and police cordoned of all the streets for a couple of hours till a pipe bomb that had been dumped was destroyed in a controlled explosion tho it was later believed to be a hoax bomb but real bombs are still happening there tho nowhere like it used to be. Maybe because things like that still happen occasionally over there it gets no real news coverage. But if it had been a muslim that had left it i can rest assure it would have been headline news.

 

[Playford7]

I repeat just take a look at Tony Robinson free speacth on you tube, He is not a racist creature every body makes him out to be let alone the shit he has hat to Indore

The police and government does not want to let us soscitey know whats going on, No1 as its been mentioned its due to religion and racist yet they let people stand out side temple telling people what and what they cannot do, again look at you tube.

If the true reality come out than people would be WTF its that all about when theses animals get arrested (or when) no media is informed and this is why it all goes noticed, and if you see what I said on you tube than you will know most media is baned from such court case that goes on on a regular basis,

I swear on my budget for spins I could right a book about this crap and it would be only 1 day of my life. I know Muslims I know Hindu and sikh, my mum live in an asian cuminty and not as so much a cuminty no more but there you go. Opposite her is a white women turned Muslim, now we all know what happen to the last white women that turned muslim or should I say white wido if I am alowed, Takes me two secs to sort things out BUT You cannot take all theses people as bad, yet 99% of them know the score

I do not think this is the place to talk about this stuff or we all get banned which in fairness this is a casino place albeit we do get banned for speaking casino but thats the boss's rules, So to cut storys short if any body has a link (and with the boss permission) we move this some where else

I thank you guys as I not the best word & writer but I going to have a beer and let some religon try stooping that one

Spot on, regarding tommy Robinson mate the best video for those to watch, or those that think he's a racist, watch the speech he gave at oxford university. That explains how the edl where born, he didn't create a anti-Muslim machine born out of hate, there was massive reasoning and facts behind his reasoning in doing so.
the man has the balls of a rhino (excuse the pun) and if you can see past the left wing media and social warrior lunacy, you will hear and see cold hard facts. Further more true experience of living amongst Islam in a western country with Christian values.

 

[Playford7]

I watched a documentary on this last night and it seems the terrorist and his father has been on the radar in the past. The father for extremist views in Syria and the terrorist for his repeated trips to fight in Syria. If I recall this is the second time in the last few years that terrorists were on the radar of British intelligence but were allowed to commit gross acts of terrorism. Remember the Drummer Rigby case? His murderers were on the radar. It seems to me that the intelligence services keeps dropping the ball and need to be more proactive in protecting the public from people with extremist views. Chances are that these people could act on these views as history has shown us thus far. I will say that these zealots only represent a small portion of the Muslim community and we must remember that.

P.S. Forgot to add that the one of the big leaders of ISIS is a British citizen and was allowed to travel to Syria in order to join his cronies a few years ago. He should have been in jail.

As said in my post, they or he are known to the security services. We have over 3000 suspected (possible) on the terrorist radar according to mi5 (official report)
Why was this not acted upon, case of Rochdale?... to scared to be labelled racist?. We won't ever really know.
But as a ex SAS veteran said on sky news, if they have such intelligence on these (people) why are they not immediately detained and held until they can confirm they are of no threat?..
the reason why?... PC bullshit. Because they are of the Muslim faith and that's seen as discrimination.
Now i have strong views on this, granted but I'm by no means at all racist. And I don't think every Muslim is evil, but and this is a big but the Islamic world do absolutely nothing to address this, why?.. possibly they all read the same book?.. and it's in the religion itself.
Maybe not, just my opinion.

 

[nojoke]

Was not going to comment on this thread as my opinions on muslims terrorists etc. are better kept to myself not something to get into a heated debate about.

1.The one thing that keeps coming up about any attacks tho are that the culprits were on the radar so why were they not stopped and how the police and government etc should not have allowed them .

2.Sorry but theres no way these attacks can all be stopped even if the government have suspicions about the attackers and even if we had 20000 more police officers.

3.Theres literally thousands and thousands in britain alone getting monitored and under suspicion. But until they actually commit a crime or there is evidence they are going to then there is nothing that can be done. You cannot watch every single person in the country 24/7 for years because you feel they may commit an attack.

4.Maybe it would be good to round up everyone on the at risk list and lock them all up. But theres no way that will ever happen as we still live in a country that says you are innocent until proven guilty and take that away and theres nothing left.

Also there is is still other terror threats to this country other than muslim ones. Only last year i was in belfast for the 12th of July with my son when all the hotels were evacuated and the bomb disposal units and police cordoned of all the streets for a couple of hours till a pipe bomb that had been dumped was destroyed in a controlled explosion. Maybe because things like that still happen occasionally over there it gets no real news coverage. But if it had been a muslim that had left it i can rest assure it would have been headline news.

1. Agenda. Police state. Big Brother. Control with fear.
2. Yes they can, It just takes money. When TSHTF the people pay what ever it takes to stay safe. New Tax "Safe Tax" comming to you soon.
3. You can watch, You can collect as much data as you like and store it on tiny devices. You can monitor landlines, mobiles, broadband etc. There are Snitches and Double agents, The Grapevine. Easy to monitor everyone and for a very long time, It just takes money...See above.
4. That would just make their relatives angry, Oh and cost lots of money that they dont quite have ....Yet.

Maybe.

 

[Playford7]

Interlog

Just would like to add one final thing in this thread.
As spintee said and correctly so, using our right of free speech will possibly end up in a ban for some.
But 'interlog' as many know I've had massive differences with in the past, also bad arguments and confrontation with.
I'd like to say beyond our own opinions on certain issues, that i find that members 'banning' obscene. He contributes, has valid points and is a decent member here.
He spoke how he felt and was discriminated for this as it doesn't conform to what certain people find acceptable.
That's not free speech at all, furthermore if those who done this read this thread in full they will find his points totally valid.

 

[Mouche12]

Mmm, about this Tommy Roberson - quite the colourful, not so innocent lad if you ask me. Just had a quick read and saw that he was the former leader of the right-wing English Defence League. He seems charismatic enough and is quite honest about the bad things he’s done (being a former hooligan, amongst others), but I think he's omitting or downplaying quite a bit.

Remember that the EDL caused a huge amount of aggravation for a lot of people, and too often the mob tipped into nasty and aggressive Islamophobia. Even though he raised that mob, Roberson never really took any responsibility for this. Every time an EDL supporter did something bad, this gentleman passed it off as just a rotten apple. That would also include his own actions. For instance, he and 70 others piled into a lorry with some vague plan to turn up at Abu Hamza’s house or at the homes of three convicted paedophiles, with unclear aims.

I think this looks like dangerous street justice, but it’s conveniently passed off as a mix of anger, frustration, adrenaline, booze and naivety. Yet when a Muslim does something bad it’s not a bad apple: it’s the entire religion and spineless political classes that are to blame.

Not my kind of guy, even though he presents himself nicely - I'm not buying it.

 

[Playford7]

Mmm, about this Tommy Roberson - quite the colourful, not so innocent lad if you ask me. Just had a quick read and saw that he was the former leader of the right-wing English Defence League. He seems charismatic enough and is quite honest about the bad things he’s done (being a former hooligan, amongst others), but I think he's omitting or downplaying quite a bit.

Remember that the EDL caused a huge amount of aggravation for a lot of people, and too often the mob tipped into nasty and aggressive Islamophobia. Even though he raised that mob, Roberson never really took any responsibility for this. Every time an EDL supporter did something bad, this gentleman passed it off as just a rotten apple. That would also include his own actions. For instance, he and 70 others piled into a lorry with some vague plan to turn up at Abu Hamza’s house or at the homes of three convicted paedophiles, with unclear aims.

I think this looks like dangerous street justice, but it’s conveniently passed off as a mix of anger, frustration, adrenaline, booze and naivety. Yet when a Muslim does something bad it’s not a bad apple: it’s the entire religion and spineless political classes that are to blame.

Not my kind of guy, even though he presents himself nicely - I'm not buying it.

Have you watched his speech at oxford university in full. Also the question and answers after it. Granted it's long, but clearly you havnt. You have formed your own narrative upon what you wish and what isn't fact.
As I said in a earlier post, the edl was created due to lack of police action regarding Islam.look into please before posting leftist garbage.
And street justice you say? Where? We live in a democracy in the uk, you have that right to protest in the streets, unless it insights hated.
Well tommy has never ever done this, but we have the Muslim community openly burning poppies, anjam choudrey for years on our streets telling us the uk Is falling, and he openly endorsed Isis allowed to do this?..
I'm sorry, you have no idea what you are talking About. Learn about those that you want to smear before you attempt to bring a valid debate to the table.
The left wing frankly bullshit is boring and has zero, fact!. Logic!. Or substance.

 

[Mouche12]

So, playford - he was not the former leader of EDL and the latter was never involved in aggressive Islamophobia? Is this something I made up or is it fact???

As to Choudary, he has been denounced by mainstream Muslim groups, and has been largely criticised in the media, so what are you getting at?

 

[Playford7]

So, playford - he was not the former leader of EDL and the latter was never involved in aggressive Islamophobia? Is this something I made up or is it fact???

Have you looked into the reasons why the edl was formed. Im quite sure I asked you this before. Islamaphobia is a fear of Islam, and I'm telling you the majority of the uk has that phobia now, whether they have the balls to admit this is another argument all together.
Watch his speech at oxford university please, the finest university in the land. Stop believing all you hear from the bbc, CNN and the like. And come to me with a real argument, you cannot paint a man to be something you wish just because you 'heard it in the media' do your own research and look into, in depth, like I have the reason the edl was formed. As said Again, listen and watch the oxford speech then please come back to me with a credible argument.

 

[Playford7]

So, playford - he was not the former leader of EDL and the latter was never involved in aggressive Islamophobia? Is this something I made up or is it fact???

As to Choudary, he has been denounced by mainstream Muslim groups, and has been largely criticised in the media, so what are you getting at?

Denounced by Muslim groups. Don't make me laugh.
Where are these Muslim groups marching the streets and denouncing what happened in manchester...they are not any.
Fact.
Why!
Well you tell me.

 

[Mouche12]

The average civilised, law-abiding citizen usually does not go out marching in the streets against some extremist Muslim - Choudary has been dealt with and is in prison, fortunately. He is the extreme opposite of the other extreme opposite, Robinson. [edited to add: obviously Choudary is much worse, I think he should be jailed for life].

Give me the link of the lecture cause I can only find his speech on you tube relating to the police raiding his mum's house etc. In any case, we are dealing with extremists here and they never offer any solutions but only wreak havoc on society.

 

[lockinlove]

Just would like to add one final thing in this thread.
As spintee said and correctly so, using our right of free speech will possibly end up in a ban for some.
But 'interlog' as many know I've had massive differences with in the past, also bad arguments and confrontation with.
I'd like to say beyond our own opinions on certain issues, that i find that members 'banning' obscene. He contributes, has valid points and is a decent member here.
He spoke how he felt and was discriminated for this as it doesn't conform to what certain people find acceptable.
That's not free speech at all, furthermore if those who done this read this thread in full they will find his points totally valid.

Its already starting here in Canada

The motion, officially known as M-103, was tabled by Mississauga—Erin Mills Liberal MP Iqra Khalid on Dec. 5, 2016. It aims to condemn and combat Islamophobia, acts of discrimination and hate against Muslims.

What it is:

Requests the Commons heritage committee to study how the government could develop a government-wide approach to reducing or eliminating systemic racism and religious discrimination, including Islamophobia, and collect data to provide context for hate crime reports and to conduct needs assessments for impacted communities. Findings are to be presented within eight months.


Asks the government to recognize the need to quell the increasing public climate of hate and fear.

Calls on the government to condemn Islamophobia and all forms of systemic racism and religious discrimination.

The conservative party countered with why not make it for all religions which was denied by the liberals who only want this law to include muslims.

You go to most message boards and there is alot of hate that the liberals are doing this well aside from the liberals who are just liberal because. And its one of the many things that will cost them next election as the premiers approval rating is 17% and the prime minister approval ratings went from the 80's to the 40's.

 

[syrus2]

Denounced by Muslim groups. Don't make me laugh.
Where are these Muslim groups marching the streets and denouncing what happened in manchester...they are not any.
Fact.
Why!
Well you tell me.

lay the bitch in its crib an give it a rest for Christ's sake.

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[sledge13]

lay the bitch in its crib an give it a rest for Christ's sake.

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That's a photo of sikhs not muslims, Daily Mirror pc agenda twisting the truth, so hey give it a rest for christ's sake.

 

[syrus2]

That's a photo of sikhs not muslims, Daily Mirror pc agenda twisting the truth, so hey give it a rest for christ's sake.

Well, in that case I do'nt have to worry then . cuz I got you down here to tell us the truth !!!

 

[Mouche12]

That's a photo of sikhs not muslims, Daily Mirror pc agenda twisting the truth, so hey give it a rest for christ's sake.

Imam Irfan Chishti was also at this congregation, he represents British Islam and muslims - I think it's you twisting the truth here...

 

[Playford7]

The average civilised, law-abiding citizen usually does not go out marching in the streets against some extremist Muslim - Choudary has been dealt with and is in prison, fortunately. He is the extreme opposite of the other extreme opposite, Robinson. [edited to add: obviously Choudary is much worse, I think he should be jailed for life].

Give me the link of the lecture cause I can only find his speech on you tube relating to the police raiding his mum's house etc. In any case, we are dealing with extremists here and they never offer any solutions but only wreak havoc on society.

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[Playford7]

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Sorry for the late response. Hope that link works.
If not google 'tommy Robinson oxford union speech'
Respect to the finest university in the world for giving the man a platform.
And for the record, I have always been anti EDL.
But I believe in anti Islam.

 

[asadzareef89]

This thread sadly has gone down to religion bashing instead of condemnation for a terrible crime committed by a terrorist. Btw people dissing muslims as a whole for the actions 0.0001% of the people using the name of islam exactly gives in to what these few want, divide the communities against each other.

I can guarantee you that all muslims aren't like that so when you say you are anti islam as a whole, you are also condemning the thousands of NHS workers, police officers, army recruits, professors, teachers, social workers, midwives etc serving their communities.

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I would love to know a single person who's been to the hospital and wasn't in some way served by a muslim doctor, nurse, midwife, surgeon etc.

Condemn the act, the person, his beliefs(which differ from most muslims) but dont diss the whole section of society as that only serves to the purpose of these heinous people

 

[lockinlove]

When its a religious act, it goes hand in hand. When someone kills people in the name of allah and their religion what else do you expect for conversation?

Yes. I would say 70% of muslims do not rape, molest and murder like their god calls upon. But how can anyone question others who dont approve or believe in that faith or any faith in that matter?

 

[Playford7]

This thread sadly has gone down to religion bashing instead of condemnation for a terrible crime committed by a terrorist. Btw people dissing muslims as a whole for the actions 0.0001% of the people using the name of islam exactly gives in to what these few want, divide the communities against each other.

I can guarantee you that all muslims aren't like that so when you say you are anti islam as a whole, you are also condemning the thousands of NHS workers, police officers, army recruits, professors, teachers, social workers, midwives etc serving their communities.

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I would love to know a single person who's been to the hospital and wasn't in some way served by a muslim doctor, nurse, midwife, surgeon etc.

Condemn the act, the person, his beliefs(which differ from most muslims) but dont diss the whole section of society as that only serves to the purpose of these heinous people

Ok. Well first off what I should of said is im against the islamification of the uk, I've no issue anyone practising there beliefs, until it encroaches on my life. And that's what Islam is doing in Europe. And absolutely no, of course not all Muslims are bad people, only a fool would believe otherwise.
Also this thread isn't about religion bashing at all, people and children died in the name of Islam, after we have shared our prayers and thoughts with those who sadly lost there lives we look to the reason why it happened and the cause. The cause was anti west rhetoric and in total essence Islam.
And yes we have Muslim professionals, only the other day I visited a Muslim GP. That's lovely and I've no problem, but you see in the uk, the unemployment level of Muslim women is encroaching over 60% and over 40% in males, in government figures that's a drain of over 8 billion in taxable British earnings.
And most Muslims absolutely will condem extremists acts as any dignified human being would also. But you see in nazi germany in world war 2 it only took a small percentage of people with radical beliefs to lead the the deaths of millions world wide.
Extremism isn't something the western world can solve, it's a problem within Islam and its communities.
Until those communities address this on a national scale and accept the way your doing things are not working, then sadly it's only a matter of time until another thread like this appears.