Dont know what to do??? Im stuck!!! Please help!!!

eden84

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Location
Lancashire
Hi all,

I've been told in the past that Casinomeister is the best of the best so im coming to you today hoping someone can help me out as i feel stuck.

A few months ago i opened a click and buy account, something i seriously regret doing and is now making my life a misery.

I deposited £10.00 to William Hill Poker with it a couple of months ago. Then a few weeks later i won a couple of hundred quid which i withdrew £10.00 back to click and buy to clear my initial deposit then withdrew the rest to my bank. Fine.... no problems here.

Then i registered it to my iTunes account and the trouble started. I disputed a number of charges on my click and buy account from iTunes which subsequently ended with the closure of my Click and Buy account.

Click and Buy sent an email to ITunes and to William Hill saying that i owe them money and they should freeze my accounts untill this is solved. I apparently owe them around £50.00.

William hill failed to tell me about this and i carried on playing there depositing with my debit card.

I won £1,600.00 yesterday which i immediately withdrew. When i called them to ask why it was still a pending transaction they told me all about the click and buy email and my account was on hold. They refuse to pay out my winnings untill they have confirmation from click and buy that my account is settled and there are no problems.

I need that £1,600.00 so i thought sod it, ill pay click and buy so i can get my winnings. I tried calling them, their lines are suspended while they improve their quality of service??? So i emailed them yesterday asking them to call me immediately, which they have not done.

Im so stuck here and seriously upset that william hill have got involved with this. holding £1,600.00 because of an initial £10.00 transaction which was paid back anyway is ludicrus!!!!

what can i do??????????? help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

rainmaker

I'm not a penguin
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Location
-
I'm not familiar with "click and buy".

You write: "Then a few weeks later i won a couple of hundred quid which i withdrew £10.00 back to click and buy to clear my initial deposit then withdrew the rest to my bank"

Do they provide you "credit" which you need to pay back later? (Click and buy)

Have you done any chargebacks" lately?
 

eden84

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Location
Lancashire
You use click and buy and they take it out of your bank a couple of days later by direct debit.

I guess it is like credit yes.

As for chargebacks im not too sure what you mean?
 

rainmaker

I'm not a penguin
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Location
-
You use click and buy and they take it out of your bank a couple of days later by direct debit.

I guess it is like credit yes.

As for chargebacks im not too sure what you mean?

Chargeback is when you use a credit card to buy a thing (like depost into a casino) for later to claim the purchase for invalidate. This is sometimes used when players lose their deposit in a casino.


Did they try to withdraw this from your bank account but was declined because you did not have enough funds there?
 

eden84

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Location
Lancashire
Yea i disputed the £50 of charges and iTunes agreed with me that my account was accessed from another country. The payment wasnt bounce due to lack of funds i actualy canceled my direct debit after advice to do so from iTunes.

The real issue is can william hill do this? i owe nothing to click and buy from william hill and i removed click and buy as a payment method months ago.

It seem extremely unfair
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
You use click and buy and they take it out of your bank a couple of days later by direct debit.

I guess it is like credit yes.

As for chargebacks im not too sure what you mean?

This is related to the dispute you had with iTunes.

By contacting UNRELATED third parties about this, such as William Hill, Click & Buy have opened themselves to legal action from you for libel. IF you took action against click & buy, they will have to prove that you DO owe them this £50. This will depend on what happened with iTunes. If this is all an "administrative error" on the part of Click & buy, you can sue them for not only the libel, but damages. Since you have proof that William Hill have acted on the accusations, and to your serious detriment, this aspect is not in dispute.

Given that Click & Buy seem to have made themselves uncontactable, and you cannot pay back this £50 even if you wanted to, you could try contacting the Financial Ombudsman, or Trading Standards if the Ombudsman says this is outside his remit. You also have recourse to the Information Commissioner, in that Click & Buy clearly did not have your permission to share your transaction details with iTunes with William Hill.

You just need to prove you had a right in law to dispute and recover the £50 spent with iTunes. Prove such a right, and you have NOT "defrauded" Click & Buy, and therefore they had NO legal right to act as though you HAD.

Sharing of information like this is ONLY allowed to prevent crime, such as fraud. So to justify what they did, Click & Buy would have to show that this WAS a case of YOU trying to DEFRAUD Click & Buy, or one of it's merchants.
 

rainmaker

I'm not a penguin
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Location
-
Yea i disputed the £50 of charges and iTunes agreed with me that my account was accessed from another country. The payment wasnt bounce due to lack of funds i actualy canceled my direct debit after advice to do so from iTunes.

The real issue is can william hill do this? i owe nothing to click and buy from william hill and i removed click and buy as a payment method months ago.

It seem extremely unfair

I agree, I find it a bit strange that William Hill is using this for an excuse to hold back your winnings. This is clearly a case between you and click and buy. William Hill is not a party in this conflict. I would try to send William Hill a polite and well-written e-mail.

When it comes to click and buy. Be a bit patient. You said they were engaged in maintenance. Try to come to an agreement when you recieve a reply.

This sounds like a case that will resolve itself.
 

cerdikola

Low Roller
Joined
Dec 26, 2006
Location
Spain
I only can say bad things about Click and Buy. They still owe me around 140 euros. They blocked my account because they claim that my documents couldn't be verified and then support became unresponsive.

They looked like a serious company at a first glance, now for me they're just a mafia. I can't believe they managed to confiscate your winnings at William Hill, definitely a site to a avoid at all costs.

Good luck with your dispute!
 

eden84

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Location
Lancashire
Wow i had no idea that what click and buy are doing is illegal, i thought it was extremely unfair.

I really dont understand why william hill are acting on this information as the problem does infact have nothing to do with them.

I agree i should send them a well written reply but i do not know the ins and outs of the law and would more than likely make myself look like a fool.

vinylweatherman, as you sound like you know what you are talking about, is there any chance you could help me write an email to William Hill?

I would be extremely greatful and if necesary i will pay you for your help.
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
I've alerted WH to this thread. Hopefully you'll get more of an answer soon.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Wow i had no idea that what click and buy are doing is illegal, i thought it was extremely unfair.

I really dont understand why william hill are acting on this information as the problem does infact have nothing to do with them.

I agree i should send them a well written reply but i do not know the ins and outs of the law and would more than likely make myself look like a fool.

vinylweatherman, as you sound like you know what you are talking about, is there any chance you could help me write an email to William Hill?

I would be extremely greatful and if necesary i will pay you for your help.

I'm not THAT good, and I don't know all the details about the case.

Since this started with iTunes, you should go after THEM to start with, because unlike casinos & Click & Buy, iTunes CANNOT hide behind "offshore jurisdictions". This could be done with the help of Trading Standards, also known as "Consumer Direct". Your case is that for Click & Buy to accuse you of "fraud", iTunes must have accused you of something in the first place to Click and Buy. IF you were simply exercising your legal rights with iTunes, they would be in trouble for what they did, and Trading Standards DO have jurisdiction over them, and could force iTunes to "sort it out" with Click & Buy.

Trading standards may also have some "clout" with William Hill, since the main holding company is UK based, and listed on the stock exchange.

Betfair have already discovered that "hiding in Malta's shadow" didn't stop the ASA making TWO rulings against them so far this year, and one was about the CASINO promotion that started the big fiasco of "Happy Hour". The ASA doesn't even get a proper remit to do this until tomorrow (March 1st), yet made their views clear anyway.

I do not know the legalities of Click & Buy, but I bet they are "hiding" offshore somewhere, hoping that UK laws can't be made to apply to them. If they are somewhere in the EU though, they may well be mistaken in this view;)

Another, but drastic at this stage, option is to take William Hill to court on the grounds that their position cannot be justified. Don't forget that gambling debts ARE now enforceable under UK law.

The simplest and best option for now has been suggested. Try to pay Click & Buy this £50, and make sure they give you a receipt, and tell William Hill this has been done. Do NOT use Click & Buy again, since as a UK player you have so many other, and BETTER REGULATED options. Do NOT use the SAME provider for gambling as you do for other things, as this is what started this whole episode - use of Click & Buy for gambling AND online shopping.
If this then works out, pursue iTunes through another route over the dispute, one that does NOT involve the online gambling industry, or any of it's service providers.
This may have worked out better had you pursued iTunes directly in the first place, and without getting Click & Buy involved.

I have used Trading Standards to get redress before, and this was after the company concerned ignored THREE letters (not emails). Once they heard from Trading Standards, they couldn't "clear matters up" quick enough:D

Trading Standards do a fair bit of the "legwork" on your behalf, and because of their position, the many "brick walls" that get in our way when pursuing a matter just disappear.


Try Click & Buy tomorrow, or Wednesday. If they are STILL "unavailable due to maintenance", you can show that this is unlikely to be the truth because NO company that handles money can AFFORD to be offline for this length of time, and mere "maintenance" does NOT take long, and does NOT disrupt normal business to any significant degree.
 

eden84

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Location
Lancashire
Very informative many thanks for that.

One thing i did not mention is that i offered to comprimise with william hill. I told them if they paid me £1,500 of my withdrawl i give them permision to hold £100 (double what click and buy are demanding) untill the issue is resolved. They werent interested.

I have played with william hill for 8 years, deposited a lot of money and had many of succesful withdrawls. So i am seriously peed off they have done this to me when they clearly see by their statement system it was only a £10.00 deposit which was later withdrawn back to the provider.

Thanks for your help im going to keep trying to contact click and buy, also im going to give william hill an oppertunity to speak to me about this. So far i have only had information from their secruity department via the customer support agents who wont let me speak to a manager nor anyone on the security department.

Thanks for making william hill aware casinomeister. I dont want to make them look bad as i have loved william hill for years. I just dont know what to do and noone was helping me from eitherside of the argument.
 

rainmaker

I'm not a penguin
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Location
-
Very informative many thanks for that.

One thing i did not mention is that i offered to comprimise with william hill. I told them if they paid me £1,500 of my withdrawl i give them permision to hold £100 (double what click and buy are demanding) untill the issue is resolved. They werent interested.

I have played with william hill for 8 years, deposited a lot of money and had many of succesful withdrawls. So i am seriously peed off they have done this to me when they clearly see by their statement system it was only a £10.00 deposit which was later withdrawn back to the provider.

Thanks for your help im going to keep trying to contact click and buy, also im going to give william hill an oppertunity to speak to me about this. So far i have only had information from their secruity department via the customer support agents who wont let me speak to a manager nor anyone on the security department.

Thanks for making william hill aware casinomeister. I dont want to make them look bad as i have loved william hill for years. I just dont know what to do and noone was helping me from eitherside of the argument.

Good luck :)
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Very informative many thanks for that.

One thing i did not mention is that i offered to comprimise with william hill. I told them if they paid me £1,500 of my withdrawl i give them permision to hold £100 (double what click and buy are demanding) untill the issue is resolved. They werent interested.

I have played with william hill for 8 years, deposited a lot of money and had many of succesful withdrawls. So i am seriously peed off they have done this to me when they clearly see by their statement system it was only a £10.00 deposit which was later withdrawn back to the provider.

Thanks for your help im going to keep trying to contact click and buy, also im going to give william hill an oppertunity to speak to me about this. So far i have only had information from their secruity department via the customer support agents who wont let me speak to a manager nor anyone on the security department.

Thanks for making william hill aware casinomeister. I dont want to make them look bad as i have loved william hill for years. I just dont know what to do and noone was helping me from eitherside of the argument.

This is because this is a Click & Buy issue, and William Hill CANNOT know whether any money you have deposited with them will suffer a recall, even where it has not come from Click & Buy.

It is Click & Buy that need to give the "all clear" to William Hill, or you need to secure a legal ruling against Click & Buy, and present this to William Hill to assure them that this was a "one off", and not an "ongoing risk" as implied by Click & Buy to William Hill.

The fact that your past 8 YEARS with them means nothing, and over a measly £10 that has already been paid back to Click 2 Buy all "trust" in you as a loyal player is thrown out the window, proves the point that casinos NEVER, NEVER grow to trust their players, yet the CASINOS seem to think they deserve OUR trust on the basis of past good behaviour.

No PROPER business would think less of one of their customers because someone ELSE claims you owe them £50, yet they have NEVER had any trouble in their 8 years of doing business with you.

William Hill seems to think it is worth LOSING you as a customer of 8 years, just because of a £50 quid argument you had with iTunes, and that Click & Buy got stuck with.

Whilst you don't feel you owe this £50 to Click & Buy, you will pay it in order to get the £1600. Whilst this may work, it is still BLACKMAIL on the part of Click & Buy, and unless they have a LEGAL RIGHT to demand you repay the £50, they are open to CRIMINAL charges.

It is how the problem with iTunes arose, and how it was dealt with, that would determine whether Click & Buy acted in an acceptable manner, or outright broke the law. In order to take actions in recovering a debt, the debt must first be "proven" (valid in law), and enforceable by law. Even then, there are rules about what "persuasive measures" are acceptable, and which go so far as to be illegal.
 

eden84

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Location
Lancashire
Yes your right it is blackmail and i feel completely ripped off which isnt fair. As for loyalty, if what you say is true im seriously thinking of not only leaving william hill but stopping online gaming all together.

All transactions with cash is based on trust, no matter how big of a company they are.

I feel bullied by them and it takes the piss that i dont have a say in any of it.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Yes your right it is blackmail and i feel completely ripped off which isnt fair. As for loyalty, if what you say is true im seriously thinking of not only leaving william hill but stopping online gaming all together.

All transactions with cash is based on trust, no matter how big of a company they are.

I feel bullied by them and it takes the piss that i dont have a say in any of it.

That's what Consumer Direct was set up for. They don't just handle complaints either, you can get advice too, and this might help in this case. They could suggest how BEST to try to work this out yourself, and at what point you should give in, and let the Trading Standards or other regulatory body take over.

You could always "drop the hint" to these two companies that you are NOT "on your own", but have sought the advice of Consumer Direct/Trading Standards in dealing with the issue, since it is clear to you that trying to deal with this by yourself is getting nowhere. This should at least make them take another look at the issue, if only to make sure they will not "look bad" should any regulator get involved at a later stage.

Even getting CM involved has a similar effect, and if he too has asked his contact to "take a look", something may come of it.

This will all take time, and you may have WEEKS to wait for a resolution, rather than days or hours.
 

eden84

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Location
Lancashire
Yea i understand that,

What im going to do is continue to try and make contact with Click and Buy over the next few days and if i get no response i will contact Trading Standards.

I would expect william hill who in my eyes are an extremely reputable company to contact me like the support agent said, "within 24-48 hours". If they dont, i will lose all respect i have for them. I know like you said they probably wouldnt care because im just one customer, but i would expect more from them than this.

Cheers for your help.
 

eden84

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Location
Lancashire
I have discovered that Click and Buy are in germany,

Found a new number for them 0049 221 17738954

It constantly says "Unfortunately you have contacted us outside our working hours. Our phone lines are open 8am til 12pm please call back during these hours"

Considering its now 13:00hrs in Germany i am starting to worry this company has vanished into thin air.

:(
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
I have discovered that Click and Buy are in germany,

Found a new number for them 0049 221 17738954

It constantly says "Unfortunately you have contacted us outside our working hours. Our phone lines are open 8am til 12pm please call back during these hours"

Considering its now 13:00hrs in Germany i am starting to worry this company has vanished into thin air.

:(

They don't work in the afternoon I guess. Must be nice :p
 

eden84

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Location
Lancashire
Just an update,

I have raised a formal complaint to the FSA who have now gave me the contact details for a guy named IHSAN GUENGOER in their head office.

The FSA also advised that William Hill should not be acting on this as it clearly has nothing to do with them.

I still havent had a response from william hill so im going to give them a call now,
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Just an update,

I have raised a formal complaint to the FSA who have now gave me the contact details for a guy named IHSAN GUENGOER in their head office.

The FSA also advised that William Hill should not be acting on this as it clearly has nothing to do with them.
I still havent had a response from william hill so im going to give them a call now,

I thought as much.

Seems these casinos and processors have little respect for the law, but changes here in the UK are making this clearer. It seems the regulators have started to take an interest in the internet side of commerce, and are no longer saying "outside of our remit" when a complaint is made.

Having this advice from the FSA gives you a much stronger case against William Hill, and would also pave the way for a complaint to the Information Commissioner about William Hill, since they have received information they are not entitled to receive, and are using it OUTSIDE guidelines set by the FSA. Part of the data protection act covers information RECEIVED, as well as the passing on of information. It is illegal to USE information in a manner that breaches the data protection act, or indeed to KEEP such information on file.

Germany is part of the EU, but there is something about Germany that attracts both Click & Buy AND Click2Pay (I had a run-in with Click 2 Pay, because they ripped me off through the use of "churning" my transactions unnecessarily through the currency exchanges, i.e, pounds to dollars, and back to pounds, yet I was transacting in pounds, and using a source in pounds - no dollars needed at all!). I wonder if the two are connected in some way.

Click & Buy would be regulated in Germany, so you would have to pursue them through the German equivalent of the FSA.

Having such a SHORT "working day" really takes the piss, no wonder people have trouble getting hold of them.
 

eden84

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Location
Lancashire
I have just spoken to william hill and unfortunately it looks like it does look like it involves them.

What happened is...

I made a deposit via click and buy for £10.00
Click and Buy did one of those chargebacks and refused to pay the £10.00 to william hill
I made the withdrawl of £10.00 to click and buy.
They kept the £10.00 and still refused to pay william hill the initial £10.00 deposit.

So all this stems from click and buy's shadey business dealings the scamming bunch of wankers.

Click and buy are regulated in germany but they have moved their business to London, the FSA said they are indeed regulated by them.

William hill are now in discussions as to wether they can keep me from my £1,600 all over a £10.00 deposit and i have offered them a comprimise to pay me £1,550 and hold £50.00 untill the situation is resolved.

I hope to god they see some sense and start to work with me on this as holding me from obtaining my money in this manour is absolutely criminal.

I feel like im getting nowhere.
 

rainmaker

I'm not a penguin
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Location
-
I have just spoken to william hill and unfortunately it looks like it does look like it involves them.

What happened is...

I made a deposit via click and buy for £10.00
Click and Buy did one of those chargebacks and refused to pay the £10.00 to william hill
I made the withdrawl of £10.00 to click and buy.
They kept the £10.00 and still refused to pay william hill the initial £10.00 deposit.

So all this stems from click and buy's shadey business dealings the scamming bunch of wankers.

Click and buy are regulated in germany but they have moved their business to London, the FSA said they are indeed regulated by them.

William hill are now in discussions as to wether they can keep me from my £1,600 all over a £10.00 deposit and i have offered them a comprimise to pay me £1,550 and hold £50.00 untill the situation is resolved.

I hope to god they see some sense and start to work with me on this as holding me from obtaining my money in this manour is absolutely criminal.

I feel like im getting nowhere.


I did take a quick look at Click and Buy T&C:




7. Further Restrictions



Some transactions may be supported by ClickandBuy, however with specific restrictions. Examples of such transaction types are listed below, and clarification on acceptability can be obtained from the ClickandBuy Compliance department.



•Alcoholic Beverages and Tobacco
•Pharmacy – Prescription Drugs
•Stored Value Cards & Pre-Paid Debit Cards
•Adult Content
•Gambling (including Casinos, Lotteries & Skill Games)
•Foreign Currency Exchange
•Content Aggregators
•Dating Sites

But at the same time, Click and Buy is registered as a payment option on William Hill. And Click and Buy do accept gambling with restrictions. Seems a bit messy.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Well, this looks like William Hill themselves broke the Click & Buy terms by having them as a deposit option, despite this not being allowed.

Cluld the casinos be TRICKING Click & Buy by "miscoding" the transactions so that they appear to be "internet shopping", and thus getting them past Click & Buy.

Click & Buy may have "busted" some casino processors for this, so block the casino transactions they find.

This now falls to Trading Standards, and William Hill's ILLEGAL acceptance of Click & Buy for gambling transactions (illegal in the consumer protection law sense).

This applies to all other casinos listing Click & Buy as an option, since there term covers ALL aspects of gambling, and William Hill can't even argue that it is for the sportsbook, and thus allowed.

Given that the FSA say Click & Buy is regulated by them, you could complain that they are "setting traps" for users by allowing merchants who's business is gambling to list them as an option, yet where their use by players goes against the terms, and thus risks the transaction getting rejected.

You could also ask William Hill whether payment of the £10 direct to them would settle their side of the matter, and get their answer in writing. If they say "no", keep this as evidence should you need to escalate the complaint, as it shows you did everything you could to settle the matter before making a more formal complaint. Tell William Hill that it is probably the Click & Buy terms that caused them to decline the £10 in the first place, and that they shouldn't have listed them as an option, and that you will take this "unfair business practice" up with Trading Standards in order to get them to remove Click & Buy to protect other players from this problem.
 

eden84

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Location
Lancashire
The last conversation I had with the support agent at William hill on my lunch break, she spoke to the security department VIA MSN???? As the security side of things is in Malta.

I asked about them holding some of it which they promptly said "no". The lady I spoke to completely understood my circumstances and didn’t understand why this is a major problem, or why they could hold £1600 over £10.00. So she has escalated it up to another manager which she has requested if it is possible for them to process my withdrawal and take out the £10.00 owed to them. Making my withdrawal £1,590.

I just have to wait the standard 24 hours to hear back from a manager.

One thing im disappointed by is the lack of access to managers. The support agent said all correspondence has to be through the support agent and no one actually gets passed through to speak to anyone in the management chain which I think is seriously bad support on their end.

Im at work now so im going to give it till when I get home to see if they call me or take me seriously in any way. If no response is received im going to call their head office. Enough is enough.
 
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