Daniel Negreanu Cheating ???

4 of a kind

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Read this article today in a New York newspaper about the hole cam shots. I've been watching some of the WSOP on ESPN and noticed of course you can't see the hole cards till the hand is over.

Apparently, it's on a 30 minute delay when the whole cards are actually showed when the hand is over.

Negreanu was having a friend texting him while playing at the table gathering information on a certain players actions.

I don't know about you but getting help from the outside and being able to gain information that could be used in real time, even if it's 30 minutes later, I view as cheating.


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anniemac

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Not cheating in my book. Technology has reached the poker tables instead of having a friend with a pencil and paper write down the tells. Little gray area about how ethical it might be and how other players might react and would probably piss off some folks pretty bad. You can bet he's not the only one doing it. :D
 

4 of a kind

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I disagree with your point, personally I think this gives a player a great deal of helpful unfair information. Even if an observer was able to talk to friends playing at live tables only during game breaks, exposing what cards their opponents were actually holding because they just saw it on TV is just as bad. Your still getting inside info about a game still in progress in real time, even if it's every two hours. Tournaments like the WSOP go on for several days and against the same players. I can't see how this 30 minute delay experiment could ever be used again.

If this tactic was considered fair then you're taking away one of the arts of a talented player. Sometimes a player may want to show the bluff trying to tilt a player. Other and most times a player will decide to muck his bluff after being folded too.

Their is no rule that says everyone that wins a hand must show their cards at the end of a hand if everyone folded to him. Part of playing good poker is being able to bluff without being detected.

Personally I think he's a piece of crap for taking advantage of a situation that certainly won't be around for long.

If pokerstars offered him access to a super user account being able to see other players hands like the Absolute scandal, would that be okay since that to would be considered modern technology?
 
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4 of a kind

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In addition this idiot from ESPN "Horowitz" said it didn't matter since the bluffer knows you know he knows 30 minutes later, obviously is only concerned about ratings, and knows nothing about poker.

I remember seeing a hand on poker after dark when one of the other pros offered 5k to Phil Ivey to show his hand if it was better then Jacks; after an opponent folded the pot to Phil Ivey. Ivey actually had queens then mucked without showing losing 5k. Of course 5k to Ivey is tip money, and maybe a little posturing, but maybe not. Maybe he could win a lot more then 5K if he kept his opponents in check. After all, it was a high stakes game with real money.

I still think that bringing any type of technology to a live game that's directly related to altering your game as a result of using it, should be banned. Live play is a game based on what's between your ears. It's live play, not the fn internet! Shit, we might as well bring our lap tops and flop them on the table. We won't even have to do basic math any longer.
 
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kidice

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I Couldn't Agree More!

Remember when Hellmuth wore headphones? That was considered as a possible means of receiving info from a confederate and the practice was subsequently banned during the WSOP as I recall. I highly doubt Phil was, or ever would resort to that- He just preferred music to the nauseous table babble surrounding him. The true beauty of the game is each individual relying solely on his own skills and intuitions, coupled with the infinite complexities random distribution of cards and personalities brings.
Here we have a clear case of 2 (or more) against one. Forget about the 30 minute delay, that's irrelevant. ONE person per hand- that rule stands at every L.A. casino I've ever played at. It is as standard as: "show one, show all". Both are intended to maintain equality regarding the play of the hands.
In my opinion, (and iv'e been playing poker 41yrs, 2 professionally, over 20yrs in casinos) is that all personal communication devices should be OFF during play. If you must use your phone, you must LEAVE THE TABLE and post/fold is in effect a minimum of one hand or even until your button has passed- making it too expensive to have any value. Any incoming calls during play for a player can be received only on the house phones, (as a player's will be off) which again would require leaving the table. I mean seriously, could you imagine if this were allowed to continue? we'd be watching videos of the WSOT (world series of texting) with everyone paying more attention to cell phones than hole cards! I'm amazed Daniel N would see nothing wrong here.
I do realize the mentioned exchange of information may take place at the break with non-active cohorts recording other players' actions, then handing it off to their live players; However, by that time this info may not be very useful due to table consolidation or the observed player being knocked out.

The commercial success of televised poker is entirely dependant on the ability to peek at the players' cards, it's a shame it may contribute to the failure of fair play within the game itself.

(And don't even get me started about online player-tracking software!)
 

luarod

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I agree with 4 of a kind and kidice. What he did is ugly. He obviously is getting a unfair advantage over the other players.

And I agree that the 30 mins delay doesn't matter... if a tournament is long enough, he is gathering information that could be useful to beat the other players.
 

silcnlayc

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Interesting but...

Here, I will disagree. I am a horse race enthusiast and I play the thoroughbreds and sulkies online.

Each and everyone of the horses I play have previous races shown on their page which one can watch before placing a bet and how they fared. It also shows what horses they ran against previously and what place they came in against these horses. It is no different than this IMO.

How does one figure out which horse to play and how to play them (in bets) unless they know just how they have run previously? One needs to know what the horses weaknesses and strengths are before placing that bet.

To become a good horse player, you must know these things just as a good poker player needs to know what the previous hand transpired to help strenthen his stand in the poker world and needs to know how another played against him. We are talking about the past play just as in horses. If it was done DURING play, it would be a different story in my opinion.

So, a good poker player or even a horse player needs to know what has transpired in the past, to achieve the present results to make a win. I have had many wins in the thousands by studying the past races and adjusting my play. Why would anyone think it so bad for a cardplayer to do the same? Just wondering.

Just as they said, how does one learn if not studying the past? The good player will win. Just that simple. Just as in horse racing, if you do not look to the previous races...your shooting in the dark...I choose to learn and win, just as the poker pros do. I feel there is nothing wrong with that at all.


My father gave me tip a long time ago and I still use it to this day...always bet on the grey horses and if there are none then the one that dropped its pies right before the race..and it still works! That is the horses tell in horse land whether it be thoroughbreds or sulkies..:thumbsup:
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silcnlayc

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I agree with 4 of a kind and kidice. What he did is ugly. He obviously is getting a unfair advantage over the other players.

And I agree that the 30 mins delay doesn't matter... if a tournament is long enough, he is gathering information that could be useful to beat the other players.
But so can the others. or maybe they do and have and haven't owned up to it as Daniel has.

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PlexRep

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I call shenanigans!!

Sorry Anniemac, but it looks like you're going to be in the minority here.

Look at it this way.... if we're both at the same TV table, and play there for together for a few hours.... during the last half hour of play I know what type of hands you fold and against what type of raises. If you don't think this is an unfair advantage, how about this...

Come play poker with me. For the first hour or two show me every hand you get, including the ones you fold. Then don't change your style of play and play against me for an hour and see how we do. I say don't change, as I'm assuming the other players in this case were fairly clueless as to what was happening. I doubt Ngreanu was telling them!

The only way to level the field in a 30 min delay game is strictly ban any form of communication till the tournament is over, or have everyones hands from 30 mins ago flash up on the jumbotron for everyone to see (which is, of course, madness)
 

PlexRep

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always bet on the grey horses and if there are none then the one that dropped its pies right before the race.

I love this! what a great system. I'm off to the track and as soon as I see a grey horse 'drop its pies' i'm betting the lot. :) :thumbsup::thumbsup:
 

BMWSTACK

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In my opinion, (and iv'e been playing poker 41yrs, 2 professionally, over 20yrs in casinos) is that all personal communication devices should be OFF during play. If you must use your phone, you must LEAVE THE TABLE and post/fold is in effect a minimum of one hand or even until your button has passed- making it too expensive to have any value. Any incoming calls during play for a player can be received only on the house phones, (as a player's will be off) which again would require leaving the table.

Agreed, the texting has to go. Too much shared information. Turning the game of cards into the game of information gathering. And yes indeed this information goes a lot further with a Pro than an amateur. Now although I love your penalty I do not think that will take place. The only enforcement I could see is not being able to use the phone on the poker room floor at all. Make them walk outside the room to use the phone. They will still be able to gather information, but on a much limited basis.
 

anniemac

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Oh, I don't mind being in the minority. LOL! Everyone has their on take on this and that's what makes the world go round.

As the saying goes, 'Knowledge is power'. Gathering knowledge about other poker players is power. The only way that stuff like this is not going to be a problem is for the TV moneymakers to figure out a way to televise in real time. And as I said before, you can bet he is not the only one doing this.

But is it good form? Not really.

Hey Silc, I'm a horse player too. I got the same information on 'tells' that you did. LOL!
 

Mousey

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I agree w/kidice -- I've always thought all phones, etc. should be off while at the table -- whether poker, or BJ... whatever. Even if the rings or buzzes are about what do you want for dinner tonight, it's an uneccessary distraction for all players.

If anyone want to fold out and take a break out in the hall to catch up on phone calls/texts... you can't stop them. Let them lose a few blinds....

Hubby has watched almost all the WSOP live stream (no hole cards) online and the 30 min delay broadcasts on ESPN (hole cards shown) and ... well... let's just say Negreanu isn't the only one with a cellphone in his pockets.
 

silcnlayc

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I love this! what a great system. I'm off to the track and as soon as I see a grey horse 'drop its pies' i'm betting the lot. :) :thumbsup::thumbsup:
No, no no...It is one or the other! Grey horse or patties....But if you find a grey horse that does drop it pies...I mean..go all in! :D

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4 of a kind

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Here, I will disagree. I am a horse race enthusiast and I play the thoroughbreds and sulkies online.

Each and everyone of the horses I play have previous races shown on their page which one can watch before placing a bet and how they fared. It also shows what horses they ran against previously and what place they came in against these horses. It is no different than this IMO.

How does one figure out which horse to play and how to play them (in bets) unless they know just how they have run previously? One needs to know what the horses weaknesses and strengths are before placing that bet.

To become a good horse player, you must know these things just as a good poker player needs to know what the previous hand transpired to help strenthen his stand in the poker world and needs to know how another played against him. We are talking about the past play just as in horses. If it was done DURING play, it would be a different story in my opinion.

So, a good poker player or even a horse player needs to know what has transpired in the past, to achieve the present results to make a win. I have had many wins in the thousands by studying the past races and adjusting my play. Why would anyone think it so bad for a cardplayer to do the same? Just wondering.

Just as they said, how does one learn if not studying the past? The good player will win. Just that simple. Just as in horse racing, if you do not look to the previous races...your shooting in the dark...I choose to learn and win, just as the poker pros do. I feel there is nothing wrong with that at all.


My father gave me tip a long time ago and I still use it to this day...always bet on the grey horses and if there are none then the one that dropped its pies right before the race..and it still works! That is the horses tell in horse land whether it be thoroughbreds or sulkies..:thumbsup:
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"Warning" I just re-read my post and it seems a bit long.



I certainly don’t agree with most of your metaphor of horse racing being compared to live poker.

Although, as always in gambling related content there will be some similarities, yet comparing these two games to each other are pretty distant.

Having owned years ago, three thoroughbreds, and partnered in three others in New York and Florida racing, I consider myself well informed with the race game. For many horse owners, it’s about winning the race with your horse, not always the bet.

Of course there are racing forms for every track for bettors to read about the horses past performances. In fact you could go to the agent’s room, boot up any horse in any past race, and actually watch all his past performances on video. Without these obvious past performance tells for everyone to analyze, how could the sport exist? The whole game is past performance, analyze, bet, outcome. Unless of course you pick numbers out of a hat and bet on them, what I said above pretty much covers it. Let's not forget you're comparing horses to humans. In addition I would like to add that horse racing goes much deeper then the Daily Racing Form.

For example, suddenly a horse that constantly ran great, for no reason started to tail off. Unable to confirm any problem for weeks, we started to drop him down in company suspecting nothing other then just tailing off. (Like Derrick Jeter) Suddenly the problem became obvious and he got treated for the illness. We left him in the cheaper company for his first race back not concerned about the purse; instead making certain he would experience the being in front mental part horses know, and hopefully help him mentally prepare for future races. His last four races show him dropping down back to back weeks, and losing with a combined total of 74 lengths. We only got 15 to 1 ($32.00) but that wasn’t bad considering what was bet. A good owner in these cases always makes bets for the jockey and the barn and just hands them the winning tickets after the race.

No one knew the horse’s real history, except the owner, trainer, vet, and of course very close friends, and is kept very quiet. We won that race by 16 lengths and never used the whip. To weeks later we shipped him to Saratoga and entered him into “The Budweiser” (the feature for that day) and lost that race (The Budweiser) by a nose. He went off at 47 to 1.

That in the racing world is considered very much real inside information, and gives a truly unfair advantage to the people that knew it.

Playing poker on the internet is completely different then live play (for the most part) other then the rules. Online your computer could keep records of thousands of different players you faced in the past, along with all their different playing styles, from pre-flop along with every street to the river. Your computer could figure out percentages for every situation you’re faced with to the decimal point in a millisecond. It goes on and on with collusion, bots, and all the other dirty laundry. With that being said, there are still many people that do very well after mastering the art of online poker. Online poker (for most who are serious) goes much deeper then just sitting at a random table and playing what you consider your “A” game without the available online tools, just like horse racing goes beyond the Racing Form.

Live poker is most definitely another form of the poker game. First of all you’re not playing 14 games at once. (Just One) Of course you run into a few players colluding, but not that often. It’s pretty much man/woman vs. man/woman. Whatever game you bring to the table is pretty much all you got. If you can’t do math in your head, figure out odds, relentlessly trying to find a single tell from opponents, remember past hands in your head, money or chip management, never forgetting about position, betting patterns, just to mention a few requirements of a good poker player, I would suggest you stay away from live play. You need to do all this and more in your head without a computer spitting all this info out for you in split seconds.

A very important part of the poker game is presenting a certain image whatever that may be for the game you’re presently playing. The right image gives you the power to bluff and get away with it more often then not. Showing opponents cards always letting them see exactly how you’re playing is only something an amateur would consider. The live game is not predominately about past performances. The only thing that matters now is the hand presently being played, and what took place over the last couple of hours. Who knows for sure what game any opponent decided to bring to the table on any given day. This is why proven pros keep winning, because they are pros at mixing it up. What makes you think if you ran into Gus Hansen at a table, and after watching how he plays for years on TV, that he would play you the way you expect him to during that session? You would have to first analyze what he’s doing right now in real time.

Just like the sick horse I mentioned above. The public had no idea the horse was sick and now became healthier then ever based on his past performances. If everyone knew that information then everyone would have gained an edge. When having this type of information (hole cards) available during live poker play, even on delay would be considered gaining the same type of inside information similar to the horse. Whoever has this information with no doubt gains an unfair advantage both with horses and live poker games.

The most important part of the game and the quote that’s always repeated over and over again, “it’s not the cards you have; it’s what your opponents think you have”. If you’re able to monitor even on a delay exactly what I did have during a live game still in progress, not only are you cheating gaining information on my hard learned present tactics, you’ll also know when I’m changing my style, unfairly gaining knowledge of my whole purpose for sitting at a table willing to gamble at a game that I’m betting I’m better then you are in the first place.

I want to play my poker game against you and the talents you're capable of bringing to the table, not modern technology giving you unfair inside information on my game I worked years at to master.

I’m willing to bet this new delay crap will never happen again in the future during a live game.
 
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silcnlayc

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4 of a kind :"Warning" I just re-read my post and it seems a bit long.
It was a very enjoyable read regardless...I still say there are many similarities to both as you pointed out so well and some differences ...it does come down to being good at what you do...

I still do not believe it is on that far to the left of so called cheating since they (the players) all have this same opportunity to learn the same things, from the same play...so the advantage has been removed, imo since all see the same thing...hence...no cheating, again, JMO...great read though!

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4 of a kind

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I still do not believe it is on that far to the left of so called cheating since they (the players) all have this same opportunity to learn the same things, from the same play...so the advantage has been removed, imo since all see the same thing...hence...no cheating, again, JMO...great read though!


Even if all knew what everyone was doing hence making it fair for all, we might as well just all put the same amount of money into the pot, and just deal all cards open. If you're willing to surrender this very critical part of the game away, it becomes just more of a game of who gets dealt the best cards.
 

Luckylizzy

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I feel like this information gives players an unfair advantage against opponents they are unfamiliar with and changes the game. They could analyze their opponents in a way that truly feels like cheating to me and change their play style to provide a completely different outcome.

There is a reason why players are allowed to muck their cards and with the new 30 minute delay footage it is almost pointless for anyone to hide what was in their hand. Now everyone will know how you played with what hands 30 minutes after you did it. Then they come back to the table knowing all that inside info and use it against you.

Unless they can prevent this from happening they should at least hold off on providing hole card footage for a day or two. It's just not fair to the people who are being polite and using some self control to do the right thing.
 

4 of a kind

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They could analyze their opponents in a way that truly feels like cheating to me and change their play style to provide a completely different outcome.

Like Negreanu said himself: "I knew what he was capable of because I had a friend watching for me".

This meant he changed his thinking, altering his game in real time. Having hole card information should never be considered just another tell. This isn’t about noticing a players eyes twitching when he’s bluffing, this is about you seeing my hole cards against my will.

I also guess it would be fair to consider that maybe Negreanu knew everyone was doing it, and at least had the balls to come forward and expose how stupid ESPN was. Maybe he was trying to preserve the integrity of the game.
 

kidice

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Poker Horse Sense

My father gave me tip a long time ago and I still use it to this day...always bet on the grey horses and if there are none then the one that dropped its pies right before the race..and it still works! That is the horses tell in horse land whether it be thoroughbreds or sulkies..:thumbsup:
.[/QUOTE]

Hey that is a tip i gotta check out! although shhhhhhh! can't have this be toooo public or the odds on every grey horse, as well as the ones with diarrhea, will plummet drastically!

As to your argument against it being an unfair advantage, I completely follow your reasoning and it almost had me reconsidering my stance- UNTIL I saw the glaring difference between your horse analogy and this case: With your example, the information is available to EVERYONE and is public. The game of poker Daniel played is dependant on private info, ie: hole cards. When i play, i NEVER expose cards unless forced to by a call. Why? to give as little info as possible- it is that important to success at the level the game is played these days. Even had his opponent known and permitted Daniel's access to this information, every other player at the table is being cheated by being denied the same insight!
It's insider trading all over again. I'm not gonna jump on Daniel's chit just yet as it would soley be based on a newspaper clip (and that, posted online) but i will stand by my position based on the conditions as provided by it.

Verdict: Unethical Tactics Not in Keeping With the Spirit of The GAME

*note: we all have access to mirrors and sticks, it's still wrong to use 'em to see cards. It's not an issue of technology- it's one of honor.
 
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