Licensing Curaçao licensees may have an easy time of it after all

[maxd]

Scouting around for interesting developments I ran across

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at igamingbusiness.com (iGB). Aside from announcing the

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for new and transitioning licencees there were a few juicy bits that shine some light on what the Curaçao authorities are actually doing regarding licencees, new and old:

The portal has two key functions. The first is processing new applications under the current legislation with the GCB [Gaming Control Board]. The second is the registration of all sublicensees that wish to continue operating uninterrupted when the LOK [The National Ordinance For Games Of Chance] is enacted and the new Curaçao Gaming Authority (CGA) is established.

The primary requirement for registrants is that they be a registered Curaçao company which means they must have a registered Curaçao address and "at least one named director in the country". So what about the other requirements we've heard mentioned, a physical office and staff in Curaçao, etc?

The government process will process all new applicants under existing legislation, in advance of it enacting LOK. The minister of finance and his team has confirmed to iGB that, at this point, there is no requirement for physical offices or local employees.

Aside from submitting the relevant documentation, this is the only significant action that needs to be taken by sublicensees or new operators that are applying for a licence on the portal.

Clearly Curaçao doesn't want to upset their existing casino business too much -- or at all -- in spite of the sabre-rattling that we've seen reported elsewhere. iGB states as much in the article's conclusion:

Operators that want to continue operating as a master licensee or sublicensee under the LOK must register on the portal before the government enact LOK. At that point, the CGA will become the regulator.

Day-to-day operations under all active master licences can continue as normal. However, it is imperative that the new regulator has a record of all current licence holders in the country.

As the days go by it begins to seem as if the real purpose of this license-changing exercise is to shuffle some government departments around, (eventually) take control of licensing, and finally get all Curaçao licensees on the books. If that is the case then the effects that trickle down to the players could be very modest indeed.

 

[dunover]

Was it ever going to be any different......

 

[Webzcas]

So to surmise, business as usual nothing to see here!?

Interesting to see how the Dutch government will view this, there is certainly going to be more twists and turns.

But in the meantime those operators who were looking forward to visiting Anjouan and the subsequent expense claims it would generate, will have to put those plans on ice for the time being!

 

[goatwack]

I thought Curacao had finally got its house in order, and was set to make sweeping legislative changes, whose reverberations would be felt across the iGaming space for years to come.

Literally shaking with anger right now

 

[dunover]

The turd wasn't polished after all. Nay, it wasn't even rolled in glitter. It was left in the middle of the pavement to be trodden in and slowly consumed by blowflies.

 

[Smithyy]

I'm going to be the contrarian here, I think. It's late here now so I have any desire BUT to go digging into Curacao local news sites - but it's worth noting that LOK (the new gambling regulation act that REMAINS to be passed) has already seen several changes. Unfortunately, the decisions from the Finance Minister also appear to hold little weight; they have already backtracked on the "no crypto", for example, although one of his major driving forces behind this whole campaign was all new licenses MUST "have, and maintain a physical business in Curacao with at least one WORKING (not just registered on paper) worker, with the view of directly bringing revenue to the Curacao people.

On a side note, the article that Max's link pulls a lot of is info from is also July 2023 - a date before many of the announced changes were brought in. As expected, it's currently a minefield, and what actually comes in - remains to be seen.

FWIW, the most up-to-date and reliable source of information is from a Curacao news organisation itself - You can find the "best"in , in my opinion,

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. For example, on their website, the most recent entry is a statement from the Finance Minister stating - pretty much the opposite.

Sounds like we need to get the Finance Minister in for a Q&A! Although @maxd and I expected this would all be the case until laws are passed. And for me, at least, the news about ML holders receiving a year extension is nothing new - but AFAIK, the latest information is that ANY sublicensee who wants to operate from (I forget the exact date next year) MUST register themselves independently with the new Curacao regulator.

It's just looking more likely that things will be 'delayed' - perhaps they are trying to even get a scope of how many licensees they have! (8,000, according to the aforementioned Curacao news site.)

Of course, it could be that this is simply a case of "ten years later, same events" - for those who were unaware, the last Curacao Government official who brought in serious plans to overhaful the system, was, erm, executed on the beach...

Full of families hanging out to swim, drink and relax on a tropical Sunday afternoon. Suddenly, nine bullets penetrate the body of the most famous politician of the Netherlands Antilles: Helmin Wiels. Just like the contents of his Heineken bottle, his blood also flows into the sand.

The subsequent "investigation" (cover ups) are well-detailed here:

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[dunover]

I'm going to be the contrarian here, I think. It's late here now so I have any desire BUT to go digging into Curacao local news sites - but it's worth noting that LOK (the new gambling regulation act that REMAINS to be passed) has already seen several changes. Unfortunately, the decisions from the Finance Minister also appear to hold little weight; they have already backtracked on the "no crypto", for example, although one of his major driving forces behind this whole campaign was all new licenses MUST "have, and maintain a physical business in Curacao with at least one WORKING (not just registered on paper) worker, with the view of directly bringing revenue to the Curacao people.

On a side note, the article that Max's link pulls a lot of is info from is also July 2023 - a date before many of the announced changes were brought in. As expected, it's currently a minefield, and what actually comes in - remains to be seen.

FWIW, the most up-to-date and reliable source of information is from a Curacao news organisation itself - You can find the "best"in , in my opinion,

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. For example, on their website, the most recent entry is a statement from the Finance Minister stating - pretty much the opposite.

Sounds like we need to get the Finance Minister in for a Q&A! Although @maxd and I expected this would all be the case until laws are passed. And for me, at least, the news about ML holders receiving a year extension is nothing new - but AFAIK, the latest information is that ANY sublicensee who wants to operate from (I forget the exact date next year) MUST register themselves independently with the new Curacao regulator.

It's just looking more likely that things will be 'delayed' - perhaps they are trying to even get a scope of how many licensees they have! (8,000, according to the aforementioned Curacao news site.)

Of course, it could be that this is simply a case of "ten years later, same events" - for those who were unaware, the last Curacao Government official who brought in serious plans to overhaful the system, was, erm, executed on the beach...



The subsequent "investigation" (cover ups) are well-detailed here:

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Doesn't that just give you overwhelming confidence in the corrupt banana republic. It seems the bribery administration & distribution position Finance Minister post has lesser life expectancy than a drummer in Spinal Tap.

 

[Smithyy]

Doesn't that just give you overwhelming confidence in the corrupt banana republic. It seems the bribery administration & distribution position Finance Minister post has lesser life expectancy than a drummer in Spinal Tap.

Bribery administration? You seem to be getting confused with the Hunter Biden administration - easy mistake to mistake.

Curacao, on the other hand would never commit such egregious acts.

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These clear arguments come from an alert judge in Sint Maarten in an interim judgment dated January 11, 2022, when the Italian mafia boss Francesco Corallo in Sint Maarten again saw the opportunity to bribe a minister to issue a 'master license' in order to get himself a 'master license'. sublicense' to allow sharing under other types of misleading terms. Here that Playmaster vs Atlantis World Group interim judgment.

 

[slot_zombie]

Literally shaking with anger right now

Ye have no ? in this :machinegunner: Goatie, relax mate. The fog around the nebulous offshore gaming regulations will clear before we know it. Blue skies ahead.

You may yet get your wish, and all of us, including the "streamers", will be reduced to clustering around the tuppenny pushers in Coral Island, pockets full of shrapnel, scrapping over the packet of Parma Violets that's getting within a £10 "investment" of dropping over the precipice - all the while dodging plain clothes UKGC agents clutching SOW forms.

 

[goatwack]

Ye have no ? in this :machinegunner: Goatie, relax mate. The fog around the nebulous offshore gaming regulations will clear before we know it. Blue skies ahead.

You may yet get your wish, and all of us, including the "streamers", will be reduced to clustering around the tuppenny pushers in Coral Island, pockets full of shrapnel, scrapping over the packet of Parma Violets that's getting within a £10 "investment" of dropping over the precipice - all the while dodging plain clothes UKGC agents clutching SOW forms.

Trust me, I'd like nothing more than for the UKGC to pull its finger out and actively make slotting/ gambling better for UK punters, as opposed to their euthanizing the pastime.

I'd love a return to when slotting was actually great too. After all, the UKGC did appear to make subtle, pro-player changes here and there.....up until they didn't, and have led players to seek their kicks elsewhere (as we knew would happen).

I'm as impassioned about the state we find ourselves in, as any other player gaslit by their poor decisions, and would welcome the hobby to become viable again. Nor do I want or like players getting shafted when defecting to other jurisdictions, when they ought to be able to gamble here without a hitch.

So punters lining up in stealth mode whilst evading meddling SoW-wielding jobsworths is about the furthest thing one could call my wish, believe it or not

 

[Mattue]

All I know is the day 3Dice requires me to take a selfie holding my passport in my left hand, drivers license in my right, while standing on one leg, then I'm done for good.

 

[Smithyy]

All I know is the day 3Dice requires me to take a selfie holding my passport in my left hand, drivers license in my right, while standing on one leg, then I'm done for good.

Lol, we joke, but this is actually one of (in my opinion) the worst case scenarios; either Curacao DOES get its act together, and players are forced away to non-licensed casinos where rogue operators will operate with impunity - or Curacao does a "clean up", and the reputable sites currently operating there are brought up to higher KYC standards - while smaller, rogue operators continue to accept players (just this time, perhaps, they'll be shut down quicker) - leading to players losing more money to scam operations.

 

[Smithyy]

Scouting around for interesting developments I ran across

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

at igamingbusiness.com (iGB). Aside from announcing the

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

for new and transitioning licencees there were a few juicy bits that shine some light on what the Curaçao authorities are actually doing regarding licencees, new and old:



The primary requirement for registrants is that they be a registered Curaçao company which means they must have a registered Curaçao address and "at least one named director in the country". So what about the other requirements we've heard mentioned, a physical office and staff in Curaçao, etc?



Clearly Curaçao doesn't want to upset their existing casino business too much -- or at all -- in spite of the sabre-rattling that we've seen reported elsewhere. iGB states as much in the article's conclusion:


As the days go by it begins to seem as if the real purpose of this license-changing exercise is to shuffle some government departments around, (eventually) take control of licensing, and finally get all Curaçao licensees on the books. If that is the case then the effects that trickle down to the players could be very modest indeed.

To my knowledge, the new and updated rules for companies wanting a Curacao license weren't readily available before (a few days ago?) - I found them just now. They are

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.

Note: As many have pointed out, how these new rules look on paper, and how they're enforced (if things ever do change) remains to be seen. However, there do appear to be some notable changes in the new license conditions, mainly:

1. The licensee must hold a segregated account for player deposits and winnings.

2. The licensee must have a process to verify the identity of players who are using its services. (no further information provided.)

3. Players must be given the opportunity for self-exclusion and to indicate the limits of their gambling behavior in terms of (deposit limits, etc.)

4. Virtual currencies used by the licensee must be tradeable on internationally licensed virtual currency exchanges - so it looks like crypto is good to go.

Aside from that, however, the rules are incredibly bland; for example, it doesn't even state any remote gambling specifications for machines - just that they need to be "tested for information security by an independent qualified entity approved by the GCB."

However, it does state that regarldess of whether an online gambling business will remain under a Master License or not, they are required to register as a sub-license.

Yes. All registrants and applicants must have an account on this portal. The account is unique to every operator and cannot be shared with other applications or registrations.

It seems as though they will begin accepting registrations on the 15th November - so I imagine that's when we'll need to wait until to see what's really going to change.

 

[satchnz]

Trust me, I'd like nothing more than for the UKGC to pull its finger out and actively make slotting/ gambling better for UK punters, as opposed to their euthanizing the pastime.

Yes but we all know this is but a pipe dream, right?

I'd love a return to when slotting was actually great too. After all, the UKGC did appear to make subtle, pro-player changes here and there.....up until they didn't, and have led players to seek their kicks elsewhere (as we knew would happen).

This is exactly why a bunch of us have ventured off shore. Those who don’t do their homework first are opening themselves to get burnt - as with anything in life. But it’s not a treacherous out there as some might think.

 

[dunover]

Cup-o-cocoa is to gambling as to what Chinese electronics are to online consumers - they may look the same, place bogus standards numbers and CE marks and may even fulfil their role for a period but you would never want to leave them plugged in overnight or while away.

 

[Webzcas]

Not to thread jack, but a lot of the world's biggest and most well known companies choose to manufacture their products in China, due to labour costs and the infrastructure that they have in place.

Apple for one. Just saying

 

[maxd]

Cup-o-cocoa is to gambling as to what Chinese electronics are to online consumers ...

Your analogy is more accurate than you may realize. SOME Chinese-made electronics are bin fodder, absolutely true, but some -- as Webzcas points out -- are quite excellent. Same story with Curaçao licensees: many are utter crap, but a fair few are among the best casinos out there run by some truly dedicated and conscientious people.

To the man with a big hammer there is a tendency for everything to look like a nail.

On a side note I should mention that I've ordered many items through Aliexpress -- an online retail service based in China made up of small businesses in China and other locations, such as Singapore -- and have had exceptionally good results, albeit true that I've only ordered one electronics item (which has been fine). And all at prices between 1/4 and 1/2 what I would have to pay through "regular" channels like Amazon and Ebay. So IMO one would be wise to check the propensity to scoff at "nasty foreign crap" as a matter of course.

 

[dunover]

Not to thread jack, but a lot of the world's biggest and most well known companies choose to manufacture their products in China, due to labour costs and the infrastructure that they have in place.

Apple for one. Just saying

Of what relevance is that? You refer to western companies using Chinese labour to manufacture their products to their standards. I was clearly referring to imitations, with fake kitemark numbers, CE stickers etc.

@maxd Again, I stated that some may indeed fulfil their function OK but the bottom line is that they are mostly cheap uncertified crap and it's pot luck as to whether they will a) work and b) not be dangerous. That was my (IMO quite appropriate) analogy. Maybe call this category 365 or 8048/JAZ

Take e-scooter chargers where numerous house fires and deaths have been recorded because the current and regulator settings are wrong and have as a result turned batteries into incendiary devices. Call this the Chinese electronics equivalent of 1668/JAZ.

 

[Webzcas]

You were referring to the companies that clone goods then? However, there are many decent Chinese owned manufacturers based in China too.

I vape, all the vaping products I use are Chinese companies, eLeaf and Innokin to name two.

So yes, my point is very relevant.

 

[maxd]

@dunover it's not "pot luck" because the good ones have been good for years -- decades in some cases -- so their reputation is well known to anyone that cares to look. Frankly I've had some pretty shite service and products here in Jolly Old Britain but you don't hear me saying "everything British is shit" do you? Obviously there is an issue of scale here but the point remains.

And it's not "some may indeed fulfil their function OK". No, absolutely not the case. I've said it before and there's copious proof to show that it's much more like "some perform their function admirably and totally reliably". Recognize it or don't, obviously your choice, but you're ignoring real evidence for the sake of your preconceived notions. I'm sorry to say that your endless campaign of hostility and belittlement against Curaçao as a whole is often simply unjustified.

When you relentlessly tar everything Curaçao with the same sh*tty brush it becomes more about you than it is about them. Serious criticism of Curaçao is perfectly justified to an extent but when you slag them all off out of hand and as a matter of course you have to accept that there is going to be a little, perfectly justified, push-back.

- Max

 

[dunover]

@dunover it's not "pot luck" because the good ones have been good for years -- decades in some cases -- so their reputation is well known to anyone that cares to look. Frankly I've had some pretty shite service and products here in Jolly Old Britain but you don't hear me saying "everything British is shit" do you? Obviously there is an issue of scale here but the point remains.

And it's not "some may indeed fulfil their function OK". No, absolutely not the case. I've said it before and there's copious proof to show that it's much more like "some perform their function admirably and totally reliably". Recognize it or don't, obviously your choice, but you're ignoring real evidence for the sake of your preconceived notions. I'm sorry to say that your endless campaign of hostility and belittlement against Curaçao as a whole is often simply unjustified.

When you relentlessly tar everything Curaçao with the same sh*tty brush it becomes more about you than it is about them. Serious criticism of Curaçao is perfectly justified to an extent but when you slag them all off out of hand and as a matter of course you have to accept that there is going to be a little, perfectly justified, push-back.

- Max

Maybe. The feted Videoslots even had Cure-a-cow licence when I first played there, so yes I accept there are good actors as well as bad ones under their umbrella.

But the bottom line is, my fundamental observation, is that a jurisdiction with little or no proper gambling infrastructure and one that doesn't actually coerce its licensees into ethical behaviour with enforceable and often punitive sanctions and relies upon voluntary good conduct is flawed, fraught with potential issues. And so it has proved to be.

I understand CM may be transitioning to a more 'amenable' opinion of their jurisdiction for pragmatic and commercial reasons due to the way the industry has shifted in recent years but my attitude will remain one of doubt and suspicion.

You know I love my analogies so imagine a car you used breaking down continually and being unreliable. The garage takes it in and tells you it has carried out a major overhaul. Next week you are due to pack the luggage and family into it, embarking on a long trip - how confident do you feel about driving it?

 

[Webzcas]

I understand CM may be transitioning to a more 'amenable' opinion of their jurisdiction for pragmatic and commercial reasons due to the way the industry has shifted in recent years but my attitude will remain one of doubt and suspicion.

What, seriously wtf?

So by stating that there happen to be SOME upstanding operators that are 'licensed' in Curacao means Casinomeister the site is shifting its stance for commercial reasons, to support and promote properties there?

Give me a break Dunover.

So are you saying that the Jackpot Capital Group of casinos are rogue warriors? Or how about the Legend group of casinos which also operate under a master licence there?

We all know that the vast majority of online casinos and gambling sites operating under a Curacao licence are rogue as they come. But don't start painting every operator with the same brush.

How about UKGC operators? After all the UKGC is supposedly regarded as an upstanding licensing jurisdiction. 888.com anyone?

 

[dunover]

What, seriously wtf?

So by stating that there happen to be SOME upstanding operators that are 'licensed' in Curacao means Casinomeister the site is shifting its stance for commercial reasons, to support and promote properties there?

Give me a break Dunover.

So are you saying that the Jackpot Capital Group of casinos are rogue warriors? Or how about the Legend group of casinos which also operate under a master licence there?

We all know that the vast majority of online casinos and gambling sites operating under a Curacao licence are rogue as they come. But don't start painting every operator with the same brush.

How about UKGC operators? After all the UKGC is supposedly regarded as an upstanding licensing jurisdiction. 888.com anyone?

So you picked a couple of good actors. Hardly representative. Perhaps I should paste my list of scammers under it that I compiled over the years, outnumbering them 10-1. Ask @maxd, I sent him the document a while ago.

For an entity as badly damaged as Cure-a-cow you cannot begin to take them seriously without the 3 R's - not Liebore's 3 R's but Reform, Restitution and Recognition.

Please don't try and twist my meaning here - I clearly said in the post you quoted there were GOOD actors there, the issue is that they are not compelled to be good and that's where all the issues and scams were born.

 

[goatwack]

I do believe it to be an issue of scale when looking at the greater picture - we know that many reputable brands are dependent on Chinese components. I'm sure these are held to a higher standard when representing that company.

Yet for every one of those there'll be a slew of unchecked, counterfeit, 'rogue' and outright dangerous products and components brought onto the market, with no recourse of any kind. And so it falls to the customer to make that choice, like with anything.

I don't think anyone believes that there aren't good Chinese products in amongst that, but from sheer quantity of goods available, there are far fewer of those than 'somewhat suspect' ones, and so yes, "Made in China" is and always has been treated with a hint of suspicion.

So then we have Curacao, a jurisdiction relentlessly mocked when things were 'rosier' in Europe and elsewhere and pilloried for years, falling into that same bracket.

We also see Curacao become the New World of online slotting whilst retaining a lot of their Old World habits - changes we may see at some point, but seemingly not likely, as the can gets kicked further down the road, and players get lost in among the unscrupulous operators.

I'll respect the casinos that do operate with integrity down there, and we've seen that some do. Yet that doesn't negate the fact that Curacao is anything but safe to the vast majority of players, other than relying on luck, goodwill and hearsay

 

[The Dude]

I step out for a few minutes to bake a cake, and look what happens, staff members having a barroom brawl .

Maybe. The feted Videoslots even had Cure-a-cow licence when I first played there, so yes I accept there are good actors as well as bad ones under their umbrella.

They also had forum shills that got shut down right away and I verbally reprimanded the casino rep back then at the Meister meeting in 2010 for doing such a thing. LOL

I understand CM may be transitioning to a more 'amenable' opinion of their jurisdiction for pragmatic and commercial reasons due to the way the industry has shifted in recent years but my attitude will remain one of doubt and suspicion.

No transition here at all. The thing is - licensing is interesting for us and the community benefits from these discussions - the "new and improved" Curacao licensing is something worth talking about.

Please bear in mind, I have taken all licensing with a grain of salt since the majority of licensing entities have not a clue on what they are doing when it comes to player/customer relations. Please go back in time and you will see that I have criticisms on all these jurisdictions - to include Kahnawake.

Kahnawake is once of the best run, hands on, licensing jurisdictions out there. And we have given them a ton of praise over the past ten years or so. But there was a time when Kahnawake was one of the worst jurisdictions ever. Just check out the Casinomeister awards in the early 2000s

I am not comparing Curacao and Kahnawake at all - don't get me wrong. Curacao will NEVER be as stellar as Kahnawake, but this is a dynamic industry - it always has been. And I think we are doing the community a massive service on discussing these things since us "happy few" have bucket loads of experince when it comes to dealing with understanding this playing field of online casinos.

 

[The Dude]

In case folks thought I was jivving - my cake. Lemon drizzle:

A Paul Hollywood recipe lol

By the way - I used to call Kahnawake Gaming Commision Kahn-a-ha-ha-kee.

 

[maxd]

By the way - I used to call Kahnawake Gaming Commision Kahn-a-ha-ha-kee.

Ka-na-wacky was my jibe of choice, back in the day. Stopped using that rather abruptly when they started busting their butts to make a proper go of it, which they did. Damn shame that they ended up having to close off everything but Canadian-facing properties.

- Max

 

[dunover]

I step out for a few minutes to bake a cake, and look what happens, staff members having a barroom brawl .



They also had forum shills that got shut down right away and I verbally reprimanded the casino rep back then at the Meister meeting in 2010 for doing such a thing. LOL


No transition here at all. The thing is - licensing is interesting for us and the community benefits from these discussions - the "new and improved" Curacao licensing is something worth talking about.

Please bear in mind, I have taken all licensing with a grain of salt since the majority of licensing entities have not a clue on what they are doing when it comes to player/customer relations. Please go back in time and you will see that I have criticisms on all these jurisdictions - to include Kahnawake.

Kahnawake is once of the best run, hands on, licensing jurisdictions out there. And we have given them a ton of praise over the past ten years or so. But there was a time when Kahnawake was one of the worst jurisdictions ever. Just check out the Casinomeister awards in the early 2000s

I am not comparing Curacao and Kahnawake at all - don't get me wrong. Curacao will NEVER be as stellar as Kahnawake, but this is a dynamic industry - it always has been. And I think we are doing the community a massive service on discussing these things since us "happy few" have bucket loads of experince when it comes to dealing with understanding this playing field of online casinos.

People need to see the enormity of this. A jurisdiction that has historically licensed criminals to hoover up tens, hundreds of millions without checks and balances. The misery its licensees have inflicted. Still do.

Any entity is quite rightly judged on not what it does right (bugger-all in this case) but how it behaves when things are wrong (err...does sod-all.)

This isn't like 32Red grabbing hold of rogue Golden Lounge, throwing it into the corner and kicking the crap out of it, resurrecting it as a recommended casino. This is of a different magnitude altogether.

Max mentioned 888's crapola which was done under a 'real' jurisdiction viz-a-viz the UKGC/Gibraltar. What he didn't mention was the fact they got a fucking great RG breach fine (paid) and were forced to refund thousands of players who had excluded at one property and subsequently lost at another (which they did, mentioned by numerous players on here!)

And that is the point - the difference between a real commission and a faux badge issuer like Cure-a-cow. One can coerce its licensees to behave, the other doesn't give a flying fuck after it has collected its cash.

Back to my 888 example - don't any of you discussing this with me even try to tell me this restitution would have happened under the Cure-a-cow license. You and I know, as long as we have a hole in our arses, it would never have happened.

So for those persons in this thread (I have hitherto been restrained enough to avoid using the words 'incredulous' and 'gullible') who want to smoke the peace pipe with the next soon-to-be arrested/assasinated Curacao minister, gaming commissioner or whomever, I ask this of you:

Show me an example of them forcing a licensee to pay a player.
Show me an example of them fining a licensee.
Show me an example of them independently auditing a licensee's software.
Show me an example the RG guidelines and rules they apply to their operators.
Show me a declaration and certification of a licensee's source of funding.
Show me an example of a license being suspended.
Show me an example of a license being annulled.
Show me their guidance for which jurisdictions their licensees can take players from.
Show me a ruling/guidance issue concerning a licensee's questionable T&Cs.
Show me their confirmation of personal criminal/laundering checks for any of their licensees (not names of persons obviously but the casino.)
Show me an example of a trusted body (maybe CM?) who has been entertained and had a complaint, reported info. etc. acted upon.
Show me an example of their established complaints procedure being utilized to resolve a player issue, sanction an operator or suspend a license.

I could type more but you get the point. Not all this litany of failure, but maybe just fill in 3 or 4 of them?

Because this isn't just wholesale ineptitude and inadequacy you're dealing with, but an entity that's rotten, infested to its very roots. If you think fresh clean growth will spring up from it, then I hope you get comfort from your delusion.

Perhaps think of Schulz's 'Peanuts' cartoons and Lucy pulling the ball away from Charlie Brown. Every time.

 

[dunover]

I step out for a few minutes to bake a cake, and look what happens, staff members having a barroom brawl .

Yeah, I may be outnumbered and in the corner but I have a weighty engraved pewter tankard on my person.

 

[maxd]

I repeat, "To the man with a big hammer there is a tendency for everything to look like a nail."

You hold a differing opinion and have your reasons for that. Rock on.

You suffer no others and their position that differs with yours. So be it.

You turn on us and say we're "transitioning to a more 'amenable' opinion of their jurisdiction for ... commercial reasons". That is a LONG way from fair play. I could cite you 100 examples of where our position on Curaçao has pretty much always been exactly what it is today. But that wouldn't matter much to you: "big hammer"... "your reasons" ... "suffer no others". Be what you want to be dunover but this is ... unworthy of you.

- Max

 

[The Dude]

yo @dunover I don't think anyone is praising the past Curacao Master license scheme - and definitely not the new and improved version that we haven't seen yet. And I agree with what you are saying - pretty much so.

Those nasty 1668 casinos are going to be out of the picture as far as I know, and the grapevine has told me that some of those operators were hit with fines and a lawsuit, and probably will not be able to pay their bills - to include players.

Do I need to publish a warning about that? No. I have gone on about them ad naseum. But these peeps probably won't be involved with Curacao 2.0.

But with some digging, we know who these 1668 folks are and will be watching what transpires.

People need to see the enormity of this. A jurisdiction that has historically licensed criminals to hoover up tens, hundreds of millions without checks and balances. The misery its licensees have inflicted. Still do.

I don't think the master licenses have much to do with the Curacao government. It was a commercial entity - not a governmental one. No one takes the master licenses seriously - why should they with their miserable track record of doing pretty much nothing (except for Antiliphone).

I'm not an apologist, but just trying to point out it may be a different entity all together. And I am curious on how it's going to be any different or similar to Maltese licensing. But Malta is a member of the EU - which carries a lot of weight. Curacao is well.... it's Curacao.

But the proof is in the pudding. It'll be cool to revisit this thread in the months to come to see how all of this pans out.

 

[satchnz]

Yeah, I may be outnumbered and in the corner but I have a weighty engraved pewter tankard on my person.

So we’re left to bitch and moan about everything in our own back yard (the UKGC), and bitch and moan about everything offshore too?

I am genuinely interested in what personal experiences you’ve had with offshore crypto casinos, the ones that have good reputations based on other players’ experiences? Not what you’ve seen through PABs, and not any anecdotal stories you’ve read online. I’ve only been in the game for a very short time compared to you veterans, but of the six crypto casinos I’ve got accounts at, I’ve never had any issues whatsoever.

 

[GourdFollower]

what you’ve seen through PABs

Just for clarity: Max and I are the only ones that work on PABs; and Bryan (@Casinomeister), the only other person that can access them.

 

[dunover]

So we’re left to bitch and moan about everything in our own back yard (the UKGC), and bitch and moan about everything offshore too?

I am genuinely interested in what personal experiences you’ve had with offshore crypto casinos, the ones that have good reputations based on other players’ experiences? Not what you’ve seen through PABs, and not any anecdotal stories you’ve read online. I’ve only been in the game for a very short time compared to you veterans, but of the six crypto casinos I’ve got accounts at, I’ve never had any issues whatsoever.

They're opposite ends of the spectrum. The UKGC does the big things right (such as RG, AML etc.) but at the player end is pernickety and petty (i.e. autoplay.)

Cure-a-cow doesn't do anything right that's important but you can have autoplay and BBs. Take your pick, and some do.

As for crapto gambling it's simply the latest manifestation of cross-jurisdiction gambling which by its very nature bypasses many of the checks required for cash playing so naturally will seem attractive to some, especially after places like the UKGC make it tiresome to gamble online. And I accept that many players on here from the UK are positive about it - after all with cheap or no licensing costs they can offer higher RTPs, autoplay etc. and crypto cash-outs by their nature are fast so I get it. No, I haven't played crypto as I don't believe there are any UKGC licensed crypto sites and only choose to play at properly regulated casinos. But my beef isn't specifically about crypto casinos, some of which use Curacao licenses - it's about the general failings of the jurisdiction and sytem as a whole.

It'll be all right for you until, er, it isn't. And that's when the time of reckoning becomes apparent. And with weak or no licensing, I'm sure that will go well.

 

[dunover]

Just for clarity: Max and I are the only ones that work on PABs; and Bryan (@Casinomeister), the only other person that can access them.

I think he means the complaints I have seen posted on the forum publicly before a PAB is begun.

 

[satchnz]

They're opposite ends of the spectrum. The UKGC does the big things right (such as RG, AML etc.) but at the player end is pernickety and petty (i.e. autoplay.)

Cure-a-cow doesn't do anything right that's important but you can have autoplay and BBs. Take your pick, and some do.

As for crapto gambling it's simply the latest manifestation of cross-jurisdiction gambling which by its very nature bypasses many of the checks required for cash playing so naturally will seem attractive to some, especially after places like the UKGC make it tiresome to gamble online. And I accept that many players on here from the UK are positive about it - after all with cheap or no licensing costs they can offer higher RTPs, autoplay etc. and crypto cash-outs by their nature are fast so I get it. No, I haven't played crypto as I don't believe there are any UKGC licensed crypto sites and only choose to play at properly regulated casinos. But my beef isn't specifically about crypto casinos, some of which use Curacao licenses - it's about the general failings of the jurisdiction and sytem as a whole.

It'll be all right for you until, er, it isn't. And that's when the time of reckoning becomes apparent. And with weak or no licensing, I'm sure that will go well.

Look, I’m not here to pick any fights, and I appreciate the work you do on this site. But I have to be honest and say it’s a bit of a shame that you talk so poorly of these places yet have no personal experience with them.

 

[Smithyy]

Yeah, I may be outnumbered and in the corner but I have a weighty engraved pewter tankard on my person.

***Long thread coming***

I actually find myself tentatively in the middle here. The last few weeks of my life have basically been dedicated to getting as 'deep' into the whole Curacao mess, and there's some truly wild stuff that I've "turned up" (It's there, if you know where to look.)

Firstly, I do fully agree with @Webzcas ; you can't tar every Curacao-licensed site with the same brush, when there are (at last estimates, 8,000) - and in my personal experience only I have never been refused a cent in my 8-odd years playing at Curacao-licensed crypto casinos. Of course, I do my research, I always start with small amounts - and I shall't say any more. But, on this side of the coin, the brands I've played at have, a few times, left me astonished with their service. Back in the days of bitcasino.io (they KYC now, so don't bother) they ran a great weekly and monthly promo.

I was given 10 free spins worth 25 EUR each lol - I think it was on one of those shocking GameArt slots - Some Egg thing - and ended up winning upwards of 15K. Have never been so nervous making that first $1,000 withdrawal PRAYING nothing would go wrong lol - but within about 30 mins it was all paid into my account. I had a similar sized win at Stake BEFORE they were UK licensed - about 20KEUR. They had absolutely no obligation to pay me - again, the money was in my account within a matter of minutes.

OFC, that's just anecdotal experiences - but they do seem to be pretty universal. As I mentioned earlier, when one crypto site found out I was in the UK, they simply asked me to prove I was over 18 (passport), sent my REAL UK address lol - so of course I assume the money's gone - then a few hours later I receive an email asking where I'd like my account deposited. It was around 1,000EUR or similar.

My point is, any of these sites at ANY time could have walked away with those wins - and they dwarf in comprisson to what many players are withdrawing. Not to say things won't go wrong; but, IME, playing at the "good" offshore sites is unlikely to raise any issues. OF COURSE ALL AT YOUR OWN RISK.

OK, maybe this thread will get long, but I hope to give people a bit of a better idea of what's actually going on at Curacao. For so many years, Master License holders, their exact agreements/contracts with the Ministry of Justice - it's been showed in SO MUCH Secracy even Dutch investigators struggled. Thanks to dedicated weeks lol, I've come across a LOT - and of course, two two major publications I notice are also taking a pretty hand stance against the ML structure in general. This is where @Casinomeister and I will disagree I think.

**Moving into Dunover's corner""

I don't think the master licenses have much to do with the Curacao government. It was a commercial entity - not a governmental one. No one takes the master licenses seriously - why should they with their miserable track record of doing pretty much nothing (except for Antiliphone).

Look, you, Max, Dunover, you have decades of experience in all of this. I have just half that. What I AM lucky is that I trained as an investigative journalist many moons ago, and have a knack of betting to the bottom of stuff. Although I very well could be wrong lol - but I've given sources throughout so everyone can go and make their own minds up.

So, firstly, I must say I think your take on the Master License Holders "not having much to do" with the Curacao Government is the easiest thing to disprove. From what I (and vey brave journalists who know far more than I could ever hope to) have made it pretty clear Curacao was operating corruption schemes that didn't just penetrate the Curacao government, but also the Dutch Parliament.

It's very late here so I'll try to be concise, but as a few examples:

- Prime Minister Gilmar 'Pik' Pisas -

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-

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to as a "supplementary budget" for finacning the holding company Curaçao Data & Television nv of Dataplanet nv and the Antillean Television Maatschappij (TeleCuraçao, ATM). (No problem there - expect this is linked to the old UTS (a state-owned server/hosting facility where, I believe I read, around 60% of Curacao licenses 'choose' to place their remote gambling software.

(Currently, the online gaming activities of Curacao Egaming (Cyberluck) mainly take place in the government data center Ctex/Bluenap in Mahuma. Bearingpoint, a spin-off of KPMG, has been a strategic partner of the prestigious E-gaming data center since 2010.)

- When it was revealed that Curacao owned 87.5% of the shares of UTS (unbeknown to other parts of the government, even), it was expected that a full investigation would be carried out.

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- After not one but TWO Curacao courts saw there was a legitimate chance ALL Master Licenses that had been issued had been done illegally - well, it was only natural for the then-Financial Minister to step in. Just, perhaps, not in the way you'd expect:

Four days later, Curacao Minister of Finance Javier Silvania stepped forward by stating: “5 master licenses are legitimate”. Your blogger, with a third lawsuit pending before the courts at the time, thought it inappropriate to conduct a trial-by-media. Ten days later, an insightful judge on Sint Maarten ruled again that sublicenses were 'contra legem' ( here).

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This is where the Master License holders got involved. They issued SLAAPs against the news outlets I've linked - and, most importantly, against the independant blogger who first revealed all of this.

- Here's a court of law (with an unbiased judge) agreeing to allow a sub-licensed casino to pursue legal action (and win) against to pursue legal action against Casino Guru.

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and below:

The Curaçao gambling company Usoftgaming has won a lawsuit against the affiliate website Casino Guru. According to the gambling company, the reviews on the Casino Guru site were too negative and this caused players to go to the competitor.

- FYI, Cramm, the independant journalist who helped to break all of this was herself taken to court, and fined 100,000 local currency.

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- finally - but now:

"Cramm has feared for her safety for years and in 2017 the Dutch Public Prosecution Service had her included in an official security program"

Which is where Curacao's executions (with impunity, it seems), once again make an appearance. I already wrote yesterday this yesterday - here's one of several examples.

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My point is, everything is so intertwined with corrupt officials - so I disagree with Bryan on that point.

However, Mr Dunover - I would like to point out that Curacao HAVE actually been taking legal action against bother Master License Holders and sub licensees.

For example, Master License Holder Antillephone NV were taken to court because of the actions of a sub-license, said "we're the ML holder only it's not our responsibility" - and the court disagreed.

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With the recent 1XBet Drama, Curacao did, to their credit,

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It's 3.3AM here and I really must get to bed - but it's a fascinating web of deceit, corruption and lies. I'm working on a VERY long blog about all of this - this is just some scattered thoughts in the forum - but I think two things are clear:

1) There are many legitimate Curacao-licensed operations who treat players better than many UKGC licensed outlets.

2) The whole Master License scheme has destroyed credibility in the region, and the government's lack of any serious action until recently is going to take a long time to clear up. However, the new Minister of Justice appears to have a genuine commitment to changing things - if he can live that long, that is.

Anyway, I'm off - maybe I'll finish this tomorrow, but I wanted to leave some ideas for both sides to think about!

 

[dunover]

Look, you, Max, Dunover, you have decades of experience in all of this. I have just half that. What I AM lucky is that I trained as an investigative journalist many moons ago, and have a knack of betting to the bottom of stuff. Although I very well could be wrong lol - but I've given sources throughout so everyone can go and make their own minds up.

Some Freudian slip was that.

 

[Guntis]

Comparing Curacao-licensed casinos with those under the UKGC makes no sense. Unless we compare one specific casino from each jurisdiction according to a certain set of criteria like cashout speed, winning chances based on game RTPs, support responsiveness, site usability, game selection, etc.

But if we talk about the regulatory bodies themselves, Curaçao is below the UKGC standards. There is nothing to compare.

 

[dunover]

Look, I’m not here to pick any fights, and I appreciate the work you do on this site. But I have to be honest and say it’s a bit of a shame that you talk so poorly of these places yet have no personal experience with them.

Look, why are people being obtuse here? I never mentioned crypto for pity's sake. I am talking poorly of the JURSIDICTION, its failings in general and inadequacy which have allowed huge sums to be defrauded and thousands of players to be ripped off. Mainly thus far these are non crypto sites but the failings are there still whatever type of site is operated.

Let me make it clearer - the shelf is dodgy and liable to collapse, whatever type of products are displayed in it.

No personal experience of them? Well of course not, as I refuse to play unlicensed. Why would that affect my knowledge of the issue? I have never stood on top of Mt. Everest but I know there's a spectacular view from there and it's bloody cold.

So because I haven't been reckless enough to take risks concerning the jurisdictions I play under, I have no right to comment or offer facts and opinions? It makes them less true, I see.

Perhaps the US Treasury should change the wording on their banknotes - 'In Curacao We Trust'

 

[goatwack]

Never thought we'd see the day when Curacao's considered the 'lesser evil' in comparison to over-regulated hellscapes like the UK.

Nor the acceptance that Curacao's a 'Work-In-Progress' with a troubled past that just needs to be shown some love.

When years of mishaps and shady goings-on get put to one side, and we can all forget about their numerous player failings chronicled in countless Pitch a Bitches and other tales of woe!

The very casinos where players would say they were paid without a hitch for durations, before the inevitable lamentations arose, to the point where these places were so utterly predictable they practically became memes.

I'm sure there are many newer and even experienced gamblers that believe they've found a slotting utopia, based on their individual experience, but that doesn't speak for a great many others. It's more likely we'll see a repeat of Curacao's failings than not.

And there you have it - gamblers tend to be selfish by nature and forego any notion of how others are affected, or where they get their kicks.

That's to say, until they're the ones crying out "Yelp! Somebody please help get my money!" and being given the dreaded 'talk to the back of the hand', as is likely to happen more than not.

But I guess we'll just have to see how it pans out for the majority, won't we?

 

[Webzcas]

I am going to bite here. At no point did I state Curacao was a great upstanding jurisdiction for online gambling operators. Indeed there are far more sharks than good upstanding operators that are 'licensed' there.

FWIW I agree with pretty much 95% of what you say about Curacao @dunover - but your implication that CM is moving their goalposts inferred by this statement you made

I understand CM may be transitioning to a more 'amenable' opinion of their jurisdiction for pragmatic and commercial reasons due to the way the industry has shifted in recent years but my attitude will remain one of doubt and suspicion.

Couldn't be further from the truth.

 

[mack341]

Apparently zelensky named 8 curacao casinos with links to russia and wanted them included in the sanctions programme, but the netherland's govt basically said it's nothing to do with us.

It seems to be part of the dutch royal family's kingdom, and gets mentioned in various articles across the web as being part of a laundering setup for drugs and guns and other international crime but nothing is done to clean it up - very strange. It can't be the ethnic locals wielding all this international power to evade regulations.

 

[satchnz]

Look, why are people being obtuse here? I never mentioned crypto for pity's sake. I am talking poorly of the JURSIDICTION, its failings in general and inadequacy which have allowed huge sums to be defrauded and thousands of players to be ripped off. Mainly thus far these are non crypto sites but the failings are there still whatever type of site is operated.

Let me make it clearer - the shelf is dodgy and liable to collapse, whatever type of products are displayed in it.

No personal experience of them? Well of course not, as I refuse to play unlicensed. Why would that affect my knowledge of the issue? I have never stood on top of Mt. Everest but I know there's a spectacular view from there and it's bloody cold.

So because I haven't been reckless enough to take risks concerning the jurisdictions I play under, I have no right to comment or offer facts and opinions? It makes them less true, I see.

Perhaps the US Treasury should change the wording on their banknotes - 'In Curacao We Trust'

I simply don’t subscribe to the notion of “like one, like all”.

I also believe that knowledge and experience are two very different things.

And I do not believe I have been reckless in choosing to play at a few, as you call them, “crapto” casinos. I’ve done my own research, talked to others who have played at such places before, and made my own judgement calls. I certainly would never come back here to whine about a poor experience (except perhaps to warn others) as I’m intelligent enough to know that there are certain risks involved. Perhaps I’ve just been exceptionally lucky, who knows…

Anyway I think we are at the agree to disagree stage of our debate.

 

[maxd]

Nor the acceptance that Curacao's a 'Work-In-Progress' with a troubled past that just needs to be shown some love.

When years of mishaps and shady goings-on get put to one side, and we can all forget about their numerous player failings chronicled in countless Pitch a Bitches and other tales of woe!

Casinos, and casino licensing jurisdictions, are like anything else in the great human drama: variable and ever changing. Fortunes rise and fall, reputations the same, and yesterday's black hat guy can become today's white hat guy, and vice versa (of course).

To take the stance that anyone under the Curaçao licensing umbrella is forever tainted and beyond redemption is a dead-end strategy. Things do change and if this or that casino/group/licensing jurisdiction makes a concerted effort to clean up its act then that's great, better for us all, if actions follow the flowery words and real change for the better is made. Kahnawake did it some years ago and it was a lovely thing. I'll soon be reporting on another group that appears to have done (more or less) the same.

To flat-out deny the reprobates the opportunity to improve themselves in the public eye is to miss the opportunity -- however slim -- that they might just do so. Better to give a little bit of slack, see what they can do, and judge them on the results. You might, just maybe, be pleasantly surprised.

If someone decides to ignore such opportunities and insists instead on banging the "thou art damned and forever unforgiven" drum until hell freezes over then they are simply in love with the sound of their own drumming to the exclusion of all else. Anyone that drums their tune is welcome into the tribe; everyone else is (in their eyes) either stupid or blind or simply a fool, all of whom are unworthy of basic respect never mind being heard.

- Max

 

[goatwack]

Casinos, and casino licensing jurisdictions, are like anything else in the great human drama: variable and ever changing. Fortunes rise and fall, reputations the same, and yesterday's black hat guy can become today's white hat guy, and vice versa (of course).

To take the stance that anyone under the Curaçao licensing umbrella is forever tainted and beyond redemption is a dead-end strategy. Things do change and if this or that casino/group/licensing jurisdiction makes a concerted effort to clean up its act then that's great, better for us all, if actions follow the flowery words and real change for the better is made. Kahnawake did it some years ago and it was a lovely thing. I'll soon be reporting on another group that appears to have done (more or less) the same.

To flat-out deny the reprobates the opportunity to improve themselves in the public eye is to miss the opportunity -- however slim -- that they might just do so. Better to give a little bit of slack, see what they can do, and judge them on the results. You might, just maybe, be pleasantly surprised.

If someone decides to ignore such opportunities and insists instead on banging the "thou art damned and forever unforgiven" drum until hell freezes over then they are simply in love with the sound of their own drumming to the exclusion of all else. Anyone that drums their tune is welcome into the tribe; everyone else is (in their eyes) either stupid or blind or simply a fool, all of whom are unworthy of basic respect never mind being heard.

- Max

Not really about belonging to a tribe though, is it, much as you'd prefer to categorize everyone into that binary way of thinking. The only drumming I saw was that Curacao is a place best avoided?

I guess I'm basing my completely out of line reasoning based on eleven years' worth of seeing Curacao scolded in this very forum. Perhaps I simply misread or misunderstood it, such is my tribal beating of the drum!

If Curacao does indeed become a respectable jurisdiction and get their house in order, then more power to them. Yet simply saying they have hope and just need a chance isn't much comfort to those players it currently rips off in spades, is it? So until that day, I'll happily remain skeptical

 

[maxd]

I can't imagine that you would have missed the fact that Casinomeister has been among the most vocal critics of Curaçao for nigh on 25 years. And rightly so! At no time did anyone say that "they have hope and just need a chance", those are your words not ours.

What has been said here is there are indications that things might be changing and that would be a good thing. No Pollyanna BS there, just a statement of fact based on what's in the press and our own experience.

Do they deserve a chance to clean up their act? Absolutely!
Should anyone trust them until they do? Absolutely not!
We should all remain "happily skeptical" until there is a convincing body of evidence to recommend otherwise. But being deliberately blind to any such evidence is not scepticism, it's destructive stubbornness.

I'm objecting to the stance that the door in from the cold should be slammed, welded shit, bricked over and forgotten. As I said, that's a dead-end strategy and (I believe) is more about posturing and making tough-sounding speeches that it is about the reality of the world, or even what's good for players (in the long run).

- Max

 

[goatwack]

I can't imagine that you would have missed the fact that Casinomeister has been among the most vocal critics of Curaçao for nigh on 25 years. And rightly so! At no time did anyone say that "they have hope and just need a chance", those are your words not ours.

What has been said here is there are indications that things might be changing and that would be a good thing. No Pollyanna BS there, just a statement of fact based on what's in the press and our own experience.

Do they deserve a chance to clean up their act? Absolutely!
Should anyone trust them until they do? Absolutely not!
We should all remain "happily skeptical" until there is a convincing body of evidence to recommend otherwise. But being deliberately blind to any such evidence is not scepticism, it's destructive stubbornness.

I'm objecting to the stance that the door in from the cold should be slammed, welded shit, bricked over and forgotten. As I said, that's a dead-end strategy and (I believe) is more about posturing and making tough-sounding speeches that it is about the reality of the world, or even what's good for players (in the long run).

- Max

'Desperately blind'

'Destructive stubbornness'

'Tough-sounding speeches'

Not shy in throwing those assertions around, are you?

Meanwhile, Curacao's jurisdiction remains as it ever has!

I await these 'changes'

 

[maxd]

... Not shy in throwing those assertions around, are you? ...

Well, no, if by "throwing assertions" you mean having observations based on what I've seen and read herein and hereabouts. When the pessimists and prophets of perpetual doom are belting it out full throttle it behoves those of us with opposing views to speak and speak plainly.

- Max

 

[goatwack]

Well, no, if by "throwing assertions" you mean having observations based on what I've seen and read herein and hereabouts. When the pessimists and prophets of perpetual doom are belting it out full throttle it behoves those of us with opposing views to speak and speak plainly.

- Max

'Prophets of perpetual doom' now?

So like having observations based on what I've seen and read based on over a decade's worth of Curacao criticisms behoves me to have an opposing view too!

Guess based on that we can all just speak plainly at each other now, right?

What's the next one? The cult of deranged Debbie Downers?