Crystal Palace - resolved (fraudulent claim)

[arbster]

I feel a sudden urge to play devil's advocate here

I don't see what's really wrong with this (except perhaps the affiliate part). It would be better to transfer the money to the others in a way you couldn't see (so you don't have an excuse not to pay), but these are genuine players playing at your casino. Why should how they finance their play concern you?

It's actually against the T&Cs at most casinos, regardless of the rights and wrongs. For example, at Crystal Palace the say:

9. Crystal Palace.com reserves the right to cancel your membership at any time without notice. Any balance in your account will be immediately credited back to your credit card or sent to you by check. In addition, Crystal Palace.com reserves the right, in its total discretion, to void any winnings and withhold any balance in your Casino account under any of the following circumstances.

a. If the name on your Casino account does not match the name on the credit card(s) used to deposit money into the account.

i. The name on the casino account does not match the name of the beneficial owner of the financial instrument used to make the deposit.

 

[caruso]

I'm confused as to what he did that was fraudulent. There is speculation that he sent players funds from Neteller in order for them to play? I don't understand how this is inappropriate.

"...everything leads to the casino's contention that this is a fraudulent player...there is just too much coincidence in the similarity with at least 10, maybe more, players in the casino that we could find....This appears to be one of those collusion rings we have seen."

I'm none the wiser, and this is very wooly at best. What is the presumed basis of the presumed "collusion", and what is the definition of this word in gambling parlance outside poker?

In the meantime I'll read back over the thread and see if I missed anything, but my first reaction here is DON'T PLAY AT CRYSTAL PALACE (our friend Casino City's glowing placement notwithstanding) if you want to avoid a whole host of problems, some probably based on fact, most based on the Cloud player-rip mentality.

EDIT: All I can see is that at most he was funding others' Neteller accounts, players who then deposited at CP. This is NOT information that could, on the face of it, even be accessable by Cloud, unless of course Neteller told him - LOL, see my earlier comments. Assuming he had no knowledge of the P2Ps, I see nothing fraudulent in "similar" playing styles on ten accounts UNLESS these are proven to be multi-accounts operated by the same player, and funded by fake NT accounts. But this is not what RTG say, they talk about collusion. So I remain none the wiser.

 

[Casinomeister]

I just gave you bits and pieces mainly not to give away trade secrets of the fraudsters and how they get caught. But what the hell.

This player's account is connected to a number other accounts that signed up at basically the same time frame, from no affiliate link, and had very similar account names. Here are a few of them:
bloody88
goose77
kate8888
billy888
chico888
timbo6
fodiddy6
andycap6

Another giveaway is that these accounts use the same password, or nearly the same password. How coincedental is that?

All this Neteller biz, I don't know, he volunteered this information without anyone asking for it. But I think something was going on there as well.

 

[Black21Jack]

I just gave you bits and pieces mainly not to give away trade secrets of the fraudsters and how they get caught. But what the hell.

This player's account is connected to a number other accounts that signed up at basically the same time frame, from no affiliate link, and had very similar account names. Here are a few of them:
bloody88
goose77
kate8888
billy888
chico888
timbo6
fodiddy6
andycap6

Another giveaway is that these accounts use the same password, or nearly the same password. How coincedental is that?

All this Neteller biz, I don't know, he volunteered this information without anyone asking for it. But I think something was going on there as well.

What was the fraud in this particular case? Was it bonus fraud?

 

[Casinomeister]

What was the fraud in this particular case? Was it bonus fraud?

Yes.

 

[caruso]

What was the fraud in this particular case? Was it bonus fraud?

It was multiple account fraud, surely? That's clearly what the identical account names / passwords suggests - although this "collusion" bit is still very odd. Self-collusion is in the first place impossible, and in the second place would be very counter-productive, were it not!

This does look reasonably watertight. I'd be interested to see any comment from the player himself at this point.

 

[Casinomeister]

It was multiple account fraud, surely? That's clearly what the identical account names / passwords suggests - although this "collusion" bit is still very odd. Self-collusion is in the first place impossible, and in the second place would be very counter-productive, were it not!

This does look reasonably watertight. I'd be interested to see any comment from the player himself at this point.

Actually, I think "collusion" may have not been the best choice of words, but these accounts were acting in cohesion, thus probably belonging to the same person(s).

I'm waiting to hear something from the player as well. He's already visited the forum; he just hasn't responded yet.

 

[universexf6]

This is the first time I see Crystal Palace is the righteous defendant. HAHAHAHAHA.

 

[bloody88]

I did read this earlier this morning, but I spent the day at work, and wanted to do some investigation of my own. I was doubtful but wanted to verify if any of the usernames were any of the people I know who gamble.

I'm a little hurt, as indeed one of those accounts is my co-worker's, one is my brother's girlfriend's best friend (long title eh?), and even another is her sister (they do not live together).

So you're right, I do know three for sure. Neither were shocked and upset after I called them that I had their info on a forum, probably because their accounts were locked when they signed up too? I don't think any of them won anything though, they were just suprised I won a Royal, I didn't bother asking their personal details.

I'm suprised though, the person who got me into gambling (Matt) doesn't seem to be on the list. But then again, I don't know his username and I'm not about to ask?!

My defense:
Usernames are similar? What! 8 and 7 are world wide lucky number's, I don't know many gamblers or poker players who *don't* know that. I believe license plates with many 8's sell for large sums of money in some countries.
Passwords similar? I *GUARANTEE* no one shares my password, I don't even see how you could have a similar password as mine unless it was the exact same thing.

I'm sure RTG pulled more similarities, such as location, but I live in Northern California. And it's fairly public that there are huge amounts of online gambling here.

Similar dates? I'm sure at least 50% blame on coincindence, 25% blame on it's a damn good promo, and 25% blame on I know at least me and the three people I called just got into this online habit within the last 2 months.

I'm not sure how to defend myself, as I feel obligated to defend the friend's I uncovered too. But if there is a ripple effect resulting from the people I know's actions, it'd be wise for me to not bother defending myself as that'd just be plain shitty.

There's a lot of content on this thread, and I'm nervous and upset, so here's my reply, do with it what you should, and I'll reply again later if I'm still welcome on this board.

Also, personal message to you Casino Meister, I never meant to *waste* your time, this turned out much more complicated then I imagined, and I completely understand where your opinion is coming from. I'd definatly be thinking the same thing if I was in your boat, seeing how this unfolds...

edit: fixed an error in grammar.

 

[bloody88]

Oh one more thing to add, the people I called never had sent in their faxback forms (don't know why?), but they said they would if it'd help my case.

- I told them I don't think that'd the problem. As I don't think the question is: Am I making up people? But if it is, let me know.

 

[jetset]

A personal observation. For an *innocent* newbie this guy certainly seems to have picked up a lot of very useful workarounds and wrinkles....methinks he protests too much.

 

[zrap]

I agree with you Jetset. Pretty obvious.

The most damning evidence is the usernames imo, coupled with the other relative info it seems the meister is probably right.


One thing that bothered me was it seemed to be mentioned somewhere that a group of players who played the same way as a syndicate was viewed as fraud.
While casinos may not like that type of customer I wouldn't say it was fraud. It's about the same as card counting teams and betting syndicates. The casino/book can give them the book, but have no right to not pay the persons.

 

[bagofmaggots]

agree

A personal observation. For an *innocent* newbie this guy certainly seems to have picked up a lot of very useful workarounds and wrinkles....methinks he protests too much.

I agree. A newbie would not be familuar with the abreviation RTG either

 

[Black21Jack]

I am shit faced drunk ritgte now so forgive me if I am being blunt. bloody88 I would suggest thatyou give it up and just keep quite at this point. the people in the know are aware of what is goimg on more than you know. Stop postinf trying to convince otherwise. Mr. Bailey is more powerful than you think and can pretty much figure out right away when a players complaint is BS or legit.

 

[bloody88]

Hey, in no way did I say I wasn't informed. People talk about Poker rooms, OddsOn, MicroGaming, PlayTech, RealTimeGaming, you don't have to be a *veteran to know that. Also, I said I've been playing for only 2 months, does that mean I don't know anything? Nope. I've played at all the recommended softwares I've listed above. I also read, I know RTG isn't as regulated, and has the best/fastest BJ. I know MicroGaming and PlayTech always have the same paytables, I know Slot players prefer MicroGaming. I know about slotcharts.com. I know the abbreviation to RealTimeGaming is RTG - how long did it take you to figure that out? I've listened to a few of CasinoMeister's newscasts.

I know about JetSet, Spearmaster, how do you think I was refered here? I didn't use a search engine.

I even heard about FatBonus.com the *smart* gambling site that went *under.

Do you have any friends in real life who gamble online? I do. Actually that's how I started, don't you think I've been briefed at least on the basics? Especially with something as sensitive as online gambling.

 

[bloody88]

Hey Black21Jack, I'll take your advice.

Threads wrapped up.

 

[universexf6]

I'm not sure what is actually wrong about this but onething is I am sure

IF YOU WANT TO PLAY WITHOUT WORRY, DO NOT PLAY HERE ( CRYSTAL **** )

 

[jetset]

Hey, in no way did I say I wasn't informed. People talk about Poker rooms, OddsOn, MicroGaming, PlayTech, RealTimeGaming, you don't have to be a *veteran to know that. Also, I said I've been playing for only 2 months, does that mean I don't know anything? Nope. I've played at all the recommended softwares I've listed above. I also read, I know RTG isn't as regulated, and has the best/fastest BJ. I know MicroGaming and PlayTech always have the same paytables, I know Slot players prefer MicroGaming. I know about slotcharts.com. I know the abbreviation to RealTimeGaming is RTG - how long did it take you to figure that out? I've listened to a few of CasinoMeister's newscasts.

I know about JetSet, Spearmaster, how do you think I was refered here? I didn't use a search engine.

I even heard about FatBonus.com the *smart* gambling site that went *under.

Do you have any friends in real life who gamble online? I do. Actually that's how I started, don't you think I've been briefed at least on the basics? Especially with something as sensitive as online gambling.

Yeah, right! I think you have badly underestimated your audience here...and overestimated your smarts in casinoland.

 

[caruso]

The password similarity is damning. The various "888"s could be coincidental at a long-shot, but the passwords are a bit too much.

That said, if you play at Crystal Palace you are asking for trouble. If Bloody88 had done his research and got player feedback he'd never have played there in the first place.

 

[Casinomeister]

The password similarity is damning. The various "888"s could be coincidental at a long-shot, but the passwords are a bit too much.

That said, if you play at Crystal Palace you are asking for trouble. If Bloody88 had done his research and got player feedback he'd never have played there in the first place.

Yeah, but ... this could have been any casino: Vegas Partners, iNetbet, Virtual, whatever. If players are trying to scam a casino, in most cases they will get caught.

 

[GrandMaster]

The password similarity is damning. The various "888"s could be coincidental at a long-shot, but the passwords are a bit too much.

That said, if you play at Crystal Palace you are asking for trouble. If Bloody88 had done his research and got player feedback he'd never have played there in the first place.

I am bothered by the claim that the passwords were similar. Plaintext passwords should not be available to the casino staff, only the encrypted forms. Identical passwords could still be identifed, but similar ones could not.

 

[Casinomeister]

I'm pretty sure the password issue was identified by RTG and not the casino. I believe they have access to this information - or it could have been a case of the player(s) volunteering this information. I can check on this.

 

[big_mac]

I am bothered by the claim that the passwords were similar. Plaintext passwords should not be available to the casino staff, only the encrypted forms. Identical passwords could still be identifed, but similar ones could not.

Certainly not all casinos work like that.
I had one that repeatedly confused my username and password. They even sent me several emails with my password in the subject line. Idiots!

 

[GrandMaster]

I'm pretty sure the password issue was identified by RTG and not the casino. I believe they have access to this information - or it could have been a case of the player(s) volunteering this information. I can check on this.

Even RTG should not know the passwords, it is a big security risk given the amounts of money involved. The way it should work is that the encrypted form of your password is stored. When you log in, the password you type is encrypted and if it matches the stored value, you are allowed in. If you forget your password, then someone with sufficient authority can reset it and then you can change it to something only you know.

 

[universexf6]

Well.... I must confess OPENLY that MY PASSWORD was changed WITHOUT MY AUTHORIZATION by ****** COOL CAT CASINO ****** about half a year ago. I lodged the compaint to RTG but THEY COMPLETELY IGNORED. Looks like RTG and its casinos are thinking password is just a fake gimmick trying to fool you as if it has "security" but the truth is they don't give any ****. HAHAHAHAHA. I'm not going to play garbage RTG anymore.