Chargebacks from Rogue Casinos?

[SlotMonster]

Just a thought.

If a player somehow made a deposit into a casino without knowing that this casino is 100% rogue (new to online gambling, for example), got his winnings and deposits confiscated with no reason - do they have "right" to file a chargeback request?

Thanks!

Some examples of rogue casinos can be found here, here, and here

 

[Tirilej]

He should have known. He should have done a good research before making the deposit so no, I don't think so.

 

[The Dude]

Players need to use caution when charging back since this is an act of fraud itself (if a player claims a CC was stolen or other lies). Doing so may have undesirable consequences for the player such as being put on a negative database. There are other ways in which players can get justice. Charging back is not one of them.

 

[Cogge]

I would say go ahead and charge back right away. A charge back is when you've paid for something and not received the product / service. If a rogue casino takes your deposit and confiscates the winnings, I'd say you didn't receive what was advertised.

 

[Nate]

I would say go ahead and charge back right away. A charge back is when you've paid for something and not received the product / service. If a rogue casino takes your deposit and confiscates the winnings, I'd say you didn't receive what was advertised.

Great Advice.... NOT...

There are ways to try and resolve this. Like Casinomeister pointed out, Charge-backs may likely land your name on a database. We have seen players winnings confiscated for Chargebacks at unrelated Casinos. Not a good idea IF you want to play online hassle free.

Nate

 

[me_and_ed]

Players need to use caution when charging back since this is an act of fraud itself (if a player claims a CC was stolen or other lies). Doing so may have undesirable consequences for the player such as being put on a negative database. There are other ways in which players can get justice. Charging back is not one of them.

Bryan,
What "justice" do you speak of when dealing with rogue operators, is it not fraud to advertise games that pay, when the player wins the casino chooses not pay, that seems to be fraudulent in my eyes. am not saying chargebacks are acceptable however I believe in some circumstances may be the only option to recoup the funds deposited. On a side note here, I absolutely do not condone of charging back, this is more of a curiosity, in the past I have seen many non cooperative casino's in the PAB process.

 

[Cogge]

Great Advice.... NOT...

There are ways to try and resolve this. Like Casinomeister pointed out, Charge-backs may likely land your name on a database. We have seen players winnings confiscated for Chargebacks at unrelated Casinos. Not a good idea IF you want to play online hassle free.

Nate

Well, what are the other ways to resolve it under the given fact that the casino is 100% rogue. Will any other way work to get your money back from a 100% rogue casino?

Personally I would contact my bank and explain what had happened and if you have enough "proof" that they have literally stolen your money, I'm sure your bank would issue a chargeback (or some other way get the money back).

Now, if the casino is not proven to be 100% rogue, there might be a lot more ways to get this resolved, but, imho, given that the fact of them being 100% rogue is correct, I see no other recourse than to walk the chargeback way.

 

[Tirilej]

Well, what are the other ways to resolve it under the given fact that the casino is 100% rogue. Will any other way work to get your money back from a 100% rogue casino?

Personally I would contact my bank and explain what had happened and if you have enough "proof" that they have literally stolen your money, I'm sure your bank would issue a chargeback (or some other way get the money back).

Now, if the casino is not proven to be 100% rogue, there might be a lot more ways to get this resolved, but, imho, given that the fact of them being 100% rogue is correct, I see no other recourse than to walk the chargeback way.

I can't really agree here, because if I saw it that way then anyone could just start depositing in a rogue casino, and if they won or not, then they could just make a chargeback.

The player have a responsibility to check what kind of casino it is before he gives them any money. If he don't then his lost.

 

[me_and_ed]

I can't really agree here, because if I saw it that way then anyone could just start depositing in a rogue casino, and if they won or not, then they could just make a chargeback.

The player have a responsibility to check what kind of casino it is before he gives them any money. If he don't then his lost.

Here's the rub, how many times have we seen new players getting sucked in, most of these players have no clue what a rogue casino is, we can all say they should have have known, how on earth could they know, if you dont know what you are looking for its pretty hard to find it. That old P.T Barnum saying "there is a sucker born every minute" holds true everyday.

 

[Tirilej]

Here's the rub, how many times have we seen new players getting sucked in, most of these players have no clue what a rogue casino is, we can all say they should have have known, how on earth could they know, if you dont know what you are looking for its pretty hard to find it. That old P.T Barnum saying "there is a sucker born every minute" holds true everyday.

I got sucked in myself, but I did deserve what I got and I felt ashamed because if I had just done a little research first I would have known.
I can feel bad for them but I will never think a charge back is okey just because it was in a rogue casino.

 

[dionysus]

I'm not sure someone deserves it, they could do what they believe to be due diligence by visitng a forum which applauded and promotes them not knowing the forum itself is sketchy

 

[Nate]

Well, what are the other ways to resolve it under the given fact that the casino is 100% rogue. Will any other way work to get your money back from a 100% rogue casino?

Personally I would contact my bank and explain what had happened and if you have enough "proof" that they have literally stolen your money, I'm sure your bank would issue a chargeback (or some other way get the money back).

Now, if the casino is not proven to be 100% rogue, there might be a lot more ways to get this resolved, but, imho, given that the fact of them being 100% rogue is correct, I see no other recourse than to walk the chargeback way.

I fully understand what you are saying.... It's a FINE line... There are a number of scenarios which could play out. What IF the player deposited $20, Won $100 and they don't pay... Would it be wise to charge back given the amount?

On the other hand, you could have players charging back JUST because they lost ...other players weren't paid so they suspected they wouldn't be paid. Its a debatable subject I'm almost certain will lead to the player and Casino having negative publicity.

Nate

 

[Cogge]

I might have misunderstood the OP, but I read "100% rogue" as the casino basically stealing his money. If you buy / deposit with your CC online and you do not get what was advertised, then you should get your money back.

I don't think that it's ever up to the player to know if a casino is rogue or not, and it's never the player's fault if someone steals his money.

(Again, my comments are all based on that the casino has voided the game play and refused to pay back the initial deposit)

Edit: If a player plays, loses and chargeback, then they received the advertised product and charging back in that case is fraudulent. Just like ordering something on Ebay, if you get the item and then do a chargeback, you're basically stealing the item.

 

[Nate]

I might have misunderstood the OP, but I read "100% rogue" as the casino basically stealing his money. If you buy / deposit with your CC online and you do not get what was advertised, then you should get your money back.

I don't think that it's ever up to the player to know if a casino is rogue or not, and it's never the player's fault if someone steals his money.

(Again, my comments are all based on that the casino has voided the game play and refused to pay back the initial deposit)

Sometimes we have EVIL Players as well. Winnings could be voided for a number of reasons. Irrelevant if the place is 100% ROGUE, you have players who will try to cheat at Rogue Casino's... and have their winnings confiscated.

Even some of the 'Rogue' places have contacts who will try to assist on other forums - We used to have some Rogue Casino reps here, but their memberships were terminated when they tried to persue their own agendas.

Many players are innocent and wander into the online jungle very hastily. The Onus also lies on someone to DO Research BEFORE they take the plunge. A Simple ' Casino X No Pay' will turn up lots of results in Google.

You have people who go in for 'Too good to be true' Pyramid schemes, how can this never be their fault? Its the same with email lottery winners and 419 scams.

Players rule of thumb - If its too good to be true, It probably is...

In any event, many players learn the hard way and end up being educated on Forums like these _ there are ALWAYS other avenues to pursue your case - Even with Rogues.

Nate

 

[dionysus]

Sometimes we have EVIL Players as well. Winnings could be voided for a number of reasons. Irrelevant if the place is 100% ROGUE, you have players who will try to cheat at Rogue Casino's... and have their winnings confiscated.

Even some of the 'Rogue' places have contacts who will try to assist on other forums - We used to have some Rogue Casino reps here, but their memberships were terminated when they tried to persue their own agendas.

Many players are innocent and wander into the online jungle very hastily. The Onus also lies on someone to DO Research BEFORE they take the plunge. A Simple ' Casino X No Pay' will turn up lots of results in Google.

You have people who go in for 'Too good to be true' Pyramid schemes, how can this never be their fault? Its the same with email lottery winners and 419 scams.

Players rule of thumb - If its too good to be true, It probably is...

In any event, many players learn the hard way and end up being educated on Forums like these _ there are ALWAYS other avenues to pursue your case - Even with Rogues.

Nate

Of course, a google search can also turn up a completely reliable casino but have posts with someone with an axe to grind. And not every search turns up CM; some forums happily sing the praises of rogues

 

[Nate]

Of course, a google search can also turn up a completely reliable casino but have posts with someone with an axe to grind. And not every search turns up CM; some forums happily sing the praises of rogues

Ofcourse it would - There are lots of Evil Players trying to tarnish reputable Casinos. The reality is the amount of complaints and warnings for rogues compared to reputable places...

In any event, people have differing opinions on whether to Charge back. Like CM advises, there may be (although limited) other avenues to pursue a case. It's advisable NOT to go the route, especially for the sake of landing on a charge back database...

Nate

 

[sarah1234]

If the casino doesn't have a UK license then they're committing fraud; they're not paying tax and their "goods" are misrepresented. They are not allowed to take money from UK residents or advertise to UK residents as it's an offence under the Gambling Act 2005. Financial institutions are under a statutory obligation to reduce financial crime so they'll just charge back for you. There are lots of casinos that target "problem" gamblers and these seems to be the ones that don't have the UK license. The Casinos get charged a processing fee and may lose their payment providers as they've breached their contract. But that's their fault as they shouldn't target UK customers without a license.

 

[dunover]

If the casino doesn't have a UK license then they're committing fraud; they're not paying tax and their "goods" are misrepresented. They are not allowed to take money from UK residents or advertise to UK residents as it's an offence under the Gambling Act 2005. Financial institutions are under a statutory obligation to reduce financial crime so they'll just charge back for you. There are lots of casinos that target "problem" gamblers and these seems to be the ones that don't have the UK license. The Casinos get charged a processing fee and may lose their payment providers as they've breached their contract. But that's their fault as they shouldn't target UK customers without a license.

I agree. Alas it doesn't work like that. It should do, but firstly the rogue sites are out of reach of legal systems in the countries they sell to, secondly the payment providers don't collate licence requirements before offering them services and the payment providers have little or no awareness of the fact the transactions are illegal and indirect money laundering, so tend to see things in black and white; YOU made the transaction by your own volition, the casino gave you credits so tough.

 

[sarah1234]

Yes, they may be out of the reach of legal systems with regards to tax and committing fraud which is why the banks will do a charge back for you. Then there's no tax owed to the UK; no harm done! If a payment provider is hit with 20 chargebacks then yes, the company will find out why and hense, stop business with said casino.

 

[colinsunderland]

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[crikeym8]

Lets clear up a few things. Mastercard and visa have scheme rules. If the deposit was made and it falls within the scheme accepted reason codes, Example -fraudulent Transaction Then you may have rights under the scheme to initiate charge back. When you start talking about legal obligations of casinos, then you refer to non compliance of scheme rules by merchant and processor. Non compliance for accepting payments from restricted or blocked regions in contradiction to local laws can see a merchant stripped of card processing ability. But to lodge non compliance again you need your (issuer) or bank to commission the dispute. In Australia, its harder to get banks to charge back for gaming transactions. For one , Aussie banks are some of the biggest share holders in many EU/UK /Asian financial and processing institutions. But new laws here actually do work. Chargebacks here in Ozz have a 99% success rate if you choose the right reason code. And remember, its not for you to prove your reasoning, its up to merchant to prove you wrong. Don't take shit from your bank. If first presentment of chargeback fails you can go a second time using another reason code.

To top it off, in Australia each chargeback has a $35 cost to it on top of disputed amount. Merchant or casino has to pay that also, not you. And when there are 100's transactions it costs casinos big $$

 

[sarah1234]

I know that's why I'm going after dozens of casinos. Actually seems like they all belong to one group. They've harassed me even though I've asked to be excluded from their casinos. Of course, I'm offering for them just to refund me first. But they sent me a contract with too many requirements and asking for sensitive documentation (as if I'm going to provide this to an illegal group) and they're refusing to accept responsibility for sending me dozens of offers despite being self-excluded going back years. The nail in their coffin is that they're not UK licensed so the banks have to issue charge backs. Their online support guy also threatened me! I'm not expecting my bank or even I will go after the casino to have them stripped of their card processing, this is something that will happen with the amount of charge backs they receive. I'm not fraudulently issuing charge backs. It's for misrepresentation of goods.

 

[goatwack]

To think, when this thread originated my ballsack hung at least half a centimetre higher

Good times

 

[Roseyetta]

I fell into gaming and didn't have a clue about research or rogue casinos, I have had (on more than 1 occasion) Casinos refuse to pay winnings etc etc. But to charge back seems unfair - it's not the CC providers fault, sometimes you have to take it on the chin, learn from your mistakes.

 

[colinsunderland]

I fell into gaming and didn't have a clue about research or rogue casinos, I have had (on more than 1 occasion) Casinos refuse to pay winnings etc etc. But to charge back seems unfair - it's not the CC providers fault, sometimes you have to take it on the chin, learn from your mistakes.

You don't know the CC provider don't lose out, they reclaim it from the retailer/casino?

 

[Roseyetta]

Fair enough, maybe they do, but, I can see the day the day when CC companies refuse to refund on gambling, or potentially stop their services altogether, then where would we be.

 

[sarah1234]

I fell into gaming and didn't have a clue about research or rogue casinos, I have had (on more than 1 occasion) Casinos refuse to pay winnings etc etc. But to charge back seems unfair - it's not the CC providers fault, sometimes you have to take it on the chin, learn from your mistakes.

I think your comment is odd. Why is a charge back unfair if the casino has operated illegally? Those casinos that withhold winnings I believe are the same ones that aren't UK licensed with unfair hidden terms and conditions like max bet size.

 

[Gaz237]

Fair enough, maybe they do, but, I can see the day the day when CC companies refuse to refund on gambling, or potentially stop their services altogether, then where would we be.

No, they really do. It's the casino who lose out and if rogue, rightly so.

Nothing unfair about that.

I don't think you realise how credit/debit cards work.

There not doing you a favour, they make money on every transaction you make.

 

[sarah1234]

Fair enough, maybe they do, but, I can see the day the day when CC companies refuse to refund on gambling, or potentially stop their services altogether, then where would we be.

Again, I find your comment a bit strange. Don't work for the casinos do you??? What will happen is the Casinos will stop what they're doing which is kind of why I almost don't want them to refund me. I want them to be fined. I want them to lose their payment processors. Of course I'll take a refund but there's nothing better than getting your own back on a Casino where you're threatened and they're operating illegally. The UKGC are doing an absolute stellar job at the moment and companies are responding - apart from these that operate without a license.

 

[Roseyetta]

Nope I'll agree on that - if I had realised that 2 years ago, I may have charged back myself

 

[sarah1234]

Not sure if you could have done it then. Depends on the UKGC and when casinos had to be licensed.

 

[Roseyetta]

Agree that hitting the rogue casinos where it hurts, may stop them, but we are all responsible for our own actions - as I said, I have been caught out and understand the frustration first hand.

 

[sarah1234]

It will stop them. If enough people do it.
We're responsible for our own actions - yes, and so are they! Don't forget gambling is highly addictive and ruins lives. Those of us with addictions can get help and put certain things in place like for e.g., Gamstop and self-exclusions. I'm talking about companies that know you're a problem gambler, i.e., those that you've self excluded from yet their sister sites harass you with offers. (These are the ones that aren't UK licensed).

 

[Borgie]

I thought if you chargeback you could be at risk from any casino refusing to do business with you as the chargebacks are visible to all? Is that wrong?

 

[sarah1234]

I don't think you're wrong. How fantastic!!! I was on one site and was threatened by online support. He said he'd blacklist me from all casinos. I thought great! I then joined another after receiving an email and the same scam happened on a game. I went to online support, and it was him!!!! I think they'd ban you from their group of casinos but that's all the better for you, no?? If I'd been banned from all the rogue casinos I'd be quids in!

 

[pinnit2014]

I thought if you chargeback you could be at risk from any casino refusing to do business with you as the chargebacks are visible to all? Is that wrong?

Think people have claimed in the past there is some 'chargeback database' that is seemingly shared between them.

If one did exist I'm pretty sure it'd break every data protection law.

 

[Playford7]

I thought if you chargeback you could be at risk from any casino refusing to do business with you as the chargebacks are visible to all? Is that wrong?

I charged back a ton thrills years ago, before I knew about this place, and also after many ignored emails and being totally blocked from live chat. I was totally correct and I didn’t get what I paid for, I did try to resolve it with the casino but they didn’t want to know so I charged back.
This provided a lot of problems, every mt secure trade site assumed I was self excluded and closed my account as some ‘over keen’ agent at thrills added a false SE on my account.
Eventually captain rizk here infact managed to help me and i play regularly at rizk and ikibu etc no issues, I’ve been unable to sign upto metal casino or high roller however as they now have the same license as the thrills mob now I believe, so that chargeback many years ago is still causing issues.
I’m all for charging back if your blatantly ripped off, but before you do try every other avenue first...

 

[Nicola]

Players need to use caution when charging back since this is an act of fraud itself (if a player claims a CC was stolen or other lies). Doing so may have undesirable consequences for the player such as being put on a negative database. There are other ways in which players can get justice. Charging back is not one of them.

Indeed. Have heard a couple of times when dealing with complaints the police turning up on your door-step if you piss off the wrong casino. Never a good move doing charge-backs.

 

[robby811]

Indeed. Have heard a couple of times when dealing with complaints the police turning up on your door-step if you piss off the wrong casino. Never a good move doing charge-backs.

LoL crazy UK

 

[dunover]

Chargebacks are problematic for a variety of reasons, especially when you can get logged on a database and find it bites you on the ass in future when you win at another casino.

I've said this numerous times, but there are two sides. If your transaction is to a fraudulent provider who fails to deliver the goods or services purchased then you have every right legally to chargeback.

The problems occur when starting the process - you are telling your card provider that you believe you have been defrauded for whatever reason, but it's down to gambling regulations. The provider knows zilch about these so will only want to know if you got what you initially paid for, i.e. credits. You did, so they will dismiss your claim on that basis, totally disregarding the minutiae of gaming regs that actually endorse the validity of that claim.

So then it comes down to consumer law and as yet unstated legal precedents. Unless there is a case-in-law whereby it's been established that a kosher gambling transaction is NOT just a matter of being given your credits, but also valid licensing, genuine games, fair terms and repayment of subsequent winnings then you have no precedent to get your card provider to facilitate a chargeback.

This is where the gross unfairness of it is centred. YOU and US on here know damn well you've been scammed and the transaction should never have been allowed or approved but the card people have no context to follow.

So this is what happens: you feel wronged and know you are justified in your chargeback but also are aware of what I've mentioned above so rather than make the chargeback on merit and know it'll likely be rejected, the claimant then goes down the route of denying the transaction in the first place in order to guarantee the right outcome.

This means signing a legally-binding statement that can get you prosecuted or arrested for fraud if proven or suspected to be lying, which of course you are. So it's a catch-22 situation. You know you're morally entitled to your refund, but have to perjure yourself to get it. And people like 1668/JAZ damn well know this.

 

[Playford7]

Indeed. Have heard a couple of times when dealing with complaints the police turning up on your door-step if you piss off the wrong casino. Never a good move doing charge-backs.

That would only be if the police have good reason and also the casino.
If the casino knows they tried to pull the wool the chargeback will be done and forgotten about.
It would have to be serious fraud and a large amount for the police to turn up at your door, especially in the uk where I live.
Wont happen if a casino fails to deliver what they offered.

 

[Playford7]

Chargebacks are problematic for a variety of reasons, especially when you can get logged on a database and find it bites you on the ass in future when you win at another casino.

I've said this numerous times, but there are two sides. If your transaction is to a fraudulent provider who fails to deliver the goods or services purchased then you have every right legally to chargeback.

The problems occur when starting the process - you are telling your card provider that you believe you have been defrauded for whatever reason, but it's down to gambling regulations. The provider knows zilch about these so will only want to know if you got what you initially paid for, i.e. credits. You did, so they will dismiss your claim on that basis, totally disregarding the minutiae of gaming regs that actually endorse the validity of that claim.

So then it comes down to consumer law and as yet unstated legal precedents. Unless there is a case-in-law whereby it's been established that a kosher gambling transaction is NOT just a matter of being given your credits, but also valid licensing, genuine games, fair terms and repayment of subsequent winnings then you have no precedent to get your card provider to facilitate a chargeback.

This is where the gross unfairness of it is centred. YOU and US on here know damn well you've been scammed and the transaction should never have been allowed or approved but the card people have no context to follow.

So this is what happens: you feel wronged and know you are justified in your chargeback but also are aware of what I've mentioned above so rather than make the chargeback on merit and know it'll likely be rejected, the claimant then goes down the route of denying the transaction in the first place in order to guarantee the right outcome.

This means signing a legally-binding statement that can get you prosecuted or arrested for fraud if proven or suspected to be lying, which of course you are. So it's a catch-22 situation. You know you're morally entitled to your refund, but have to perjure yourself to get it. And people like 1668/JAZ damn well know this.

When I done my only ever chargeback I was in email contact from a member of staff from my bank.
I was offered to give a statement of what happened, and how I had tried to resolve this prior to a request to chargeback.
I sent emails and chat convos also the offer I didn’t get.
Within 5 days all deposits where returned, was only about £80 if memory serves me right.
Was the principle however, the way I was treated and spoken to via chat and email left me in no doubt to get every single hard worked for penny back..
That’s forgetting to mention the offer I was given I didn’t get.
I have had a world of troubles since, had I know of here back then I’d of tried PAB obviously, but like many players at the time I didn’t even know casinomeister existed.