Brexit - whats the difference.....

[ChopleyIOM]

Remember the lies you were told.

I wish it had gone the other way, I just hope the damage from the lies get fixed sooner rather than later.

In the meantime, don't get ill.

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[ChopleyIOM]

Mate of mine is in Turin at the moment, he's enjoying his Brexit Dividends whilst he's there.




LOL.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Always rely on Private Eye.

 

[pinnit2014]

Or...

As part of the official Westminster PR troupe, that would send Nicola as well up the walls

 

[mack341]

Interesting article on the psychological strains some remainers went through:

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Extract: Part of the problem for Remainers is that their emotional reaction to Brexiteers makes them feel better, even if it fails to address the fundamental cause of their anxiety. "Trouble is, in the longer term it's not really doing anything other than keeping us going round in circles, constantly talking about Brexit and winding ourselves up," he said.

If the Brexit Anxiety Disorder theory holds true in real life, Britain’s angry Remainers can be expected to quickly return to more “normal,” rational behavior once the conflict has been resolved. In the case of Brexit, this means people grabbing hold of any certainty that comes along, accepting whatever deal the U.K. and EU are able to strike.

“Once this goal-conflict has been resolved, then there will be a major change in these individual and collective psychological states, and the Brexit debate may become more fact-faced rather than resembling the feelings and thoughts that result from hearing a disturbing noise in the night,” Corr said.

Stuart said this may be a little too optimistic though.

“Those suffering anxiety might return to more ‘normal,’ ‘rational’ behavior if the context around them changes,” he said. Clinically, however, this is often a forlorn hope, because contexts don't usually tend to change enough.

"In that case, what I'd try to do is help the person become more flexible — in short, to learn how to live with the anxiety, tolerate the uncertainty, and work out how they can continue to engage with what truly matters to them in life, rather than getting caught up trying to change things they can't change.”

In other words, Remainers may just need to relax and get over it.

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I have a different idea to best tackle brexit related stress, based on transcendental meditation where you repeat certain phrases silently, in this case: Brexit is wonderful, brexit is beautiful; farage is brilliant, rees mogg wise...and so on etc... give it a go Chop

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Remember when David Frost and Johnson - (and dunover, in this very thread!) - were telling us what a great deal they'd got? As it has become obvious over time that it was in fact, a totally shit deal that has permanently cost the UK about 5% of its GDP and is continuing to hurt the UK's economy every single day, old Frosty has tried to pull this, in quite the most breath-taking act of passing the buck you're ever likely to see.

I guess he's very much at the 'denial' stage of grief.

As ever with Brexit and the multiple disasters it has visited upon the UK, it must always, always, be someone else's fault.

 

[pinnit2014]

Alexandra, so good they named her twice, is a bit of a Frost fan (given those messages) though so not sure we can trust what she's saying.

Quite enlightening though: i didn't actually know there was any leverage in the first place

 

[mack341]

She ought to follow her own advice at the end, all she's done there is regurgitate a load of platitudes.

I think the Irish pm, or whatever he is, basically said the other week the EU had screwed the uk over with the n.ireland agreement, because they were using brinkmanship and bullying, and we had to get everything [the eu uk exit deal] passed through a parliament of which nearly half did not accept the referendum result, saying it was guidance at best and voters hadn't voted on the specifics like the custom union.

Edit: It is interesting why Boris didn't hold a GE first and then do the exit deal with a healthy majority of MPs, as Chopley posted before BJ wrote a piece for the spectator iirc arguing for us to stay in, which was never published. So he was a bit lukewarm over brexit in truth imo, did not fully use uk leverage available and preferred an amiable deal. There was a pic doing the rounds of boris being clapped on the back by all the various EU countries leaders with beaming smiles when the deal was signed.

 

[pinnit2014]

tbf (not read Leo V's words to be fair) Mack the ones who screwed N Ireland over the protocol were the UK Govt itself. You just need, as i was last week, there to feel the resentment towards them - it filters through to even the 'ardent' of Unionists - the anger isn't towards the EU.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

tbf (not read Leo V's words to be fair) Mack the ones who screwed N Ireland over the protocol were the UK Govt itself. You just need, as i was last week, there to feel the resentment towards them - it filters through to even the 'ardent' of Unionists - the anger isn't towards the EU.

Varadkar was being very diplomatic, saying that, essentially, 'mistakes were made on both sides' when it came to the NI Protocol. Of course he knows the historical context as well as we all do, which is to say that the Tories were basically a bunch of feral cats fighting in a sack at that point, who couldn't be trusted to even remotely honour any commitment they made (which reached its nadir with serial liar Boris Johnson), so yes, the EU took a pretty hard line when it came to the specifics of the NI Protocol.

(Like many here at CM, I'm old enough to remember when the IRA were blowing stuff up on the UK mainland on a regular basis, it's important to remember how historic the Good Friday Agreement was, and all credit to John Major and his Conservative government for really getting the ball rolling on it, and then Blair (for all his (MANY!) faults) for seeing it to completion.)

I will gladly defer to pinnit's obviously greater and personal knowledge on this one, however my understanding on this has also been that people aren't angry with the EU, they're angry with the UK government for absolutely chucking NI under the fucking bus.

The absolute state of this fucking scarecrow pissed-up doesn't give a fuck rich twat motherfucker who will say anything to anyone, at any time, if he thinks it will get him through the next thirty minutes.

And to think the UK gambled its place in the world and its future prosperity (or lack thereof) on this absolute wanker.

 

[mack341]

My knowledge of the intricacies of politics in N.Ireland is not great, but presume unionists feel like the NI deal cut them adrift from Britain [Apparently even a new uk licensed medicine cannot be used there atm because of the effect of the protocol].

As the uk govt negotiated and signed off this deal you can understand loyalists pointing the finger at them, but did the EU use excessive brinkmanship, holding the uk to ransom, no free trade deal on offer unless we get want we want over ireland?

What's changed is the unionists are standing their ground, afaik not agreeing to restart the executive until the protocol is altered, I say good on them as it cannot be easy, but they're doing what they feel is right and crucial to their national identity.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

My knowledge of the intricacies of politics in N.Ireland is not great, but presume unionists feel like the NI deal cut them adrift from Britain [Apparently even a new uk licensed medicine cannot be used there atm because of the effect of the protocol].

As the uk govt negotiated and signed off this deal you can understand loyalists pointing the finger at them, but did the EU use excessive brinkmanship, holding the uk to ransom, no free trade deal on offer unless we get want we want over ireland?

What's changed is the unionists are standing their ground, afaik not agreeing to restart the executive until the protocol is altered, I say good on them as it cannot be easy, but they're doing what they feel is right and crucial to their national identity.

The EU didn't use any brinkmanship at all, they were more than happy to keep extending the transition period, not least because they knew NI was going to be difficult, but Johnson and his shower of clowns just lied their arses off and hand-waved it all away (as per the video clip I linked above), and carried on regardless. (If Dominic Cummings is to be believed, Johnson literally didn't even understand (or care to learn of) the consequences of what it was he was signing up to.)

On top of this of course, the DUP blew their own feet off in magnificent fashion, as with Johnson I am not entirely sure if the explanation is stupidity or ignorance, or perhaps a generous dose of both, but if there was a top prize for 'emptying a bucket of shit over your own head', the DUP certainly wins it.

If the Unionists had considered their national identity to be important, (and understood what Brexit actually meant, especially Johnson's version of it), they'd have resisted Brexit with every fibre of their beings. Like everyone else, they were sold a pack of lies, didn't care to get their heads around the details, dismissed warnings by people who actually knew what they were talking about as PROJECT FEAR (now comprehensively rebranded as Project Reality), and the rest, as they say, is history.

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The Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) was an ardent supporter of Brexit during and after the 2016 referendum. The expectation was that Brexit would strengthen unionism. The reality is that the decision to leave the EU on the hardest possible exit deal – as advocated by the DUP – is now challenging unionism at its core. The unintended consequence is the prospect of a united Ireland looming on the horizon.

The party leadership

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to the forces that created this outcome. The party backed “Leave” in the 2016 referendum, then gained disproportionate power following the 2017 UK general elections: the votes of its ten MPs in Westminster propped up Theresa May’s government after she lost the Conservatives’ majority. But the DUP then refused to support her withdrawal deal – even though it would have treated Northern Ireland the same as Great Britain – and backed May’s successor Boris Johnson.

It is becoming more and more evident that the DUP’s support for Brexit has been a seismic error. Brexit has severely weakened its future electoral prospects and it is threatening the future of Northern Ireland as it has led to a border in the Irish Sea. Believing anything Boris Johnson has promised over the last few years has left the DUP disappointed.

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that “no British Conservative government could or should sign up to any […] agreement” requiring custom checks in the Irish Sea – a year before he was in Downing Street and then proceeded to do exactly that.

 

[mack341]

But the DUP then refused to support her withdrawal deal – even though it would have treated Northern Ireland the same as Great Britain – and backed May’s successor Boris Johnson.

You'll have to refresh me on the difference between May's deal and bojo's, how hers was better for unionists seeing as they rejected it.

I think at some point northern ireland has a vote on the protocol, vague memory of reading that, iirc it can only continue if backed by a vote at a certain future point in time, not sure if it's 4 years.

On the rest of your post I'd rather not comment, however I'm sure the DUP have given the current situation a lot of thought and what needs to change with the protocol. Also the EU and UK now seemingly in agreement there needs to be change.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

You'll have to refresh me on the difference between May's deal and bojo's, how hers was better for unionists seeing as they rejected it.

May's deal basically put the whole of the UK into the 'backstop' arrangement, rather than just NI. It was a fairly inelegant solution in some regards, but then again it was a solution to what was basically an intractable problem, so we can't hold that against it. Crucially however, it meant no border between NI and UK.

The DUP were opposed to it because they thought it might lead to the UK following EU rules for too long, so like turkeys voting for Christmas, they helped to kill it off in the Commons, and were ultimately rewarded with Johnson, who immediately did what May had, in fairness to her, refused to do, which was stick a border in the Irish Sea, and chuck NI under the bus in the process.

So yes, May's deal would have been much better for NI and the Unionists, who were of course very clearly warned about where their actions would ultimately lead, but apparently it was something called 'Project Fear', if you remember that.....

Ahhhh Brexit, half tragedy, half farce, 100% a total and absolute fuck-up.

 

[mack341]

Done a bit more digging, as the word 'backstop' never really explained itself to me, seems to be a word deliberately chosen because it doesn't mean anything in common english parlance.

From euronews on May's deal:

Under the deal, the whole of the UK would remain in a “single customs territory” – seen as a temporary customs union – with the EU until at least July 1, 2020. This could be extended or terminated, but only by mutual agreement. Tariff arrangements would be the same as now.

This infuriated many Brexiteers as it would prevent the UK from applying trade deals with other countries if tariffs are removed.
The UK government argued that neither the UK nor the EU wanted the backstop and so it was unlikely to last.

Northern Ireland would also stay aligned to some EU rules, including in some areas of the single market. This would avoid checks at the Irish border — but would mean some controls between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.

The UK, including Northern Ireland, and the EU also committed themselves to a “level playing field” over tax, the environment, social policy, state aid and competition. The UK would have to align with future EU changes. (Under the revised deal later secured by Boris Johnson, this issue was removed from the Withdrawal Agreement and included in the Political Declaration.)

Although independent bodies are given a role, the European Commission and the European Court of Justice retain major powers of oversight concerning Northern Ireland — and to some extent for the UK as a whole.

To exit the backstop, the deal stipulated that either side could propose such a move to a Joint Committee — which had the power to consult joint UK-Ireland institutions. The UK could not unilaterally leave — although the government argued that changes agreed with the EU meant the UK could not be trapped in the backstop indefinitely. [yeah this really sounds like honouring the referendum result!]

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I think the unionists made the right decision, they couldn't know bojo/tories would stitch them up, and so now they are trying to remedy this situation by forcing the EU and UK's hands.

 

[pinnit2014]

My knowledge of the intricacies of politics in N.Ireland is not great, but presume unionists feel like the NI deal cut them adrift from Britain [Apparently even a new uk licensed medicine cannot be used there atm because of the effect of the protocol].

As the uk govt negotiated and signed off this deal you can understand loyalists pointing the finger at them, but did the EU use excessive brinkmanship, holding the uk to ransom, no free trade deal on offer unless we get want we want over ireland?

What's changed is the unionists are standing their ground, afaik not agreeing to restart the executive until the protocol is altered, I say good on them as it cannot be easy, but they're doing what they feel is right and crucial to their national identity.

I get that...but at the same time the EU didn't start it so to speak, so asking them to play nice is like asking the Bully to give you back your apple.

The whole Brexit has created a dividing line between previously ardent Unionists and the current Tory Govt - it's plastered on roundabouts everywhere.

 

[mack341]

I get that...but at the same time the EU didn't start it so to speak, so asking them to play nice is like asking the Bully to give you back your apple.

The whole Brexit has created a dividing line between previously ardent Unionists and the current Tory Govt - it's plastered on roundabouts everywhere.

Possibly this is a good time to smoke out the uk govt regarding N.Ireland and unionism, it has to mean something to the uk govt as well at the end of the day.

I don't think the IRA will start up again, the fundraisers in the US wouldn't be tolerated. And with all those major US firms with headquarters in the republic I can't see it as they'd be tarnished.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I think the unionists made the right decision, they couldn't know bojo/tories would stitch them up, and so now they are trying to remedy this situation by forcing the EU and UK's hands.

C'mon mack, I genuinely try and see both sides of the argument when it comes to this stuff and debate from that position, but not suspecting/knowing that Johnson is going to stitch you up? We're into bears shitting in the woods and the Pope praying territory at this point.

It's not like everyone didn't get many very clear warnings. This is a man who'd been sacked twice for lying, had colluded with a convicted criminal to get a journalist beaten up, is a serial adulterer, and can't even tell you how many children he's fathered.

OH NO I HAD NO IDEA HE MIGHT TURN OUT TO BE AN ARSEHOLE TO US AS WELL, SAY SHOCKED DUP. THERE WAS NO WAY TO SEE THIS COMING.

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[mack341]

C'mon mack, I genuinely try and see both sides of the argument when it comes to this stuff and debate from that position, but not suspecting/knowing that Johnson is going to stitch you up? We're into bears shitting in the woods and the Pope praying territory at this point.

It's not like everyone didn't get many very clear warnings. This is a man who'd been sacked twice for lying, had colluded with a convicted criminal to get a journalist beaten up, is a serial adulterer, and can't even tell you how many children he's fathered.

OH NO I HAD NO IDEA HE MIGHT TURN OUT TO BE AN ARSEHOLE TO US AS WELL, SAY SHOCKED DUP. THERE WAS NO WAY TO SEE THIS COMING.

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View attachment 178710

Yes but the problems with the alternative, may's deal, were known, whereas how the protocol would play out under bojo's leadership was an 'unknown known' to quote donald rumsfield. And now the unionists have had to draw a line in the sand and say 'this needs fixing'.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I get that...but at the same time the EU didn't start it so to speak, so asking them to play nice is like asking the Bully to give you back your apple.

The whole Brexit has created a dividing line between previously ardent Unionists and the current Tory Govt - it's plastered on roundabouts everywhere.

This is the rotten crux of Brexit for me, this idea that the UK can adopt some sort of 'victim status' because the EU is trying to punish us, or dissuade anyone else from leaving by being arseholes, or generally making the UK's life harder out of spite.

Like you say pinnit, the EU never wanted this, (and neither did most of the UK's population, going off the absolutely consistent polling that says the whole thing has been a terrible mistake), they liked having the UK as a member, even if we were slightly troublesome and made demands all the time, we were a major economic and military power, they wanted us to be part of the club. Yes we paid into that club but we got a hell of a lot back in return. (As borne out by the fact our GDP has dived 5% since leaving and we're the only major economy that's still smaller than it was than before the pandemic hit.)

We were told the UK held all the cards and could choose whatever destiny it wished for, but apparently the meany old EU can still kick us in the bollocks and it's their fault it's all gone wrong, and all we've got to show for it is a crap trade deal with New Zealand that's so good...... FOR THEM..... that their own news channels run reports expressing disbelief at it.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Yes but the problems with the alternative, may's deal, were known, whereas how the protocol would play out under bojo's leadership was an 'unknown known' to quote donald rumsfield. And now the unionists have had to draw a line in the sand and say 'this needs fixing'.

But May's deal at least kept NI on the same footing as the UK, Brexit itself meant that a rupture was going to happen somewhere, a border had to go up somewhere, the only variable was where that border was going to end up.

There was never any way that the UK could leave the EU, with NI having a land border with the Republic Of Ireland, that didn't result in a border going up, this was explained extensively and clearly by those pesky experts at the time, but instead enough of the country decided to go with Johnson and his pack-of-lies 'OVEN READY DEAL'.

You can certainly argue that May's backstop deal would have kept the UK too much 'in' the EU as it were, but it would at least have kept the NI in lockstep with the UK, which is what the DUP said they were most concerned about.

Once they torpedoed May's deal, they opened the door to Johnson, who immediately screwed them over.

This graphic has been doing the rounds since 2016 (albeit updated a few times based on what actually happened), it lays out, absolutely clearly, the 'unicorn' thinking at the heart of Brexit.

 

[pinnit2014]

Possibly this is a good time to smoke out the uk govt regarding N.Ireland and unionism, it has to mean something to the uk govt as well at the end of the day.

I don't think the IRA will start up again, the fundraisers in the US wouldn't be tolerated. And with all those major US firms with headquarters in the republic I can't see it as they'd be tarnished.

Nah, they've been dealing drugs too long to start back up - ditto for their counterparts

 

[aceking123]

The burning question is have we left Europe yet ......................

 

[mack341]

But May's deal at least kept NI on the same footing as the UK, Brexit itself meant that a rupture was going to happen somewhere, a border had to go up somewhere, the only variable was where that border was going to end up.

Yes when you condense it like that I see your point.

You can certainly argue that May's backstop deal would have kept the UK too much 'in' the EU as it were, but it would at least have kept the NI in lockstep with the UK, which is what the DUP said they were most concerned about.

Once they torpedoed May's deal, they opened the door to Johnson, who immediately screwed them over.

Perhaps if the EU had been significantly more flexible [or the uk stronger in negotiations] the backstop might have been more acceptable and voted through parliament.

Johnson has only temporarily screwed them over, if significant changes to the protocol are agreed then the unionists will be back in a better position.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Seems to be a bit of Brexit gloom over at The Torygraph today.

What's being missed here is that the entire project was doomed by design. It's not that it was done badly, the truth is there was no way good to do it, the only variables were how damaging for the UK it would end up being.

'Almost nothing has been achieved' is a little unfair. They’ve done some pretty solid damage to the economy, the Union, the Good Friday Agreement and the UK’s international reputation. That’s quite a lot.