Brexit - whats the difference.....

[ChopleyIOM]

So back in the real world, where 'I bought cauliflower' isn't seen as some sort of mega-own of those of us who would have preferred to remain in the EU, the slow-motion economic calamity that Brexit is inflicting on the UK is becoming increasingly apparent, and internationally reported on.

I've largely stopped bothering with this sort of stuff but if dunover is literally going to post I WENT SHOPPING AND BOUGHT THINGS as a Brexit win, I'll give myself a pass.

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[pinnit2014]

Doing a bit of a disservice to Dunover's Cheesy Bits, sorry bites.

 

[mack341]

A new thing I don't like is the removal of best before dates on food, especially vegetables and salad ingredients etc... not sure if it is brexit related and whether the change has happened anyway in the EU as well [or IOM].

My fridge gets pretty cold, so salad doesn't smell off before the obvious physical signs of being too old appear, iceberg lettuce seems to look okay for ages but factually can't be, it must be going off, and without a date how are you suppose to know how long it is past its best before time.

I used to use the dates as helpful information but not a deciding one. The supermarkets themselves will know but we can't be trusted to not throw away perfectly eatable food. It's nannying, and as useful and logical as the ukgc autoplay ban.

 

[dunover]

A new thing I don't like is the removal of best before dates on food, especially vegetables and salad ingredients etc... not sure if it is brexit related and whether the change has happened anyway in the EU as well [or IOM].

My fridge gets pretty cold, so salad doesn't smell off before the obvious physical signs of being too old appear, iceberg lettuce seems to look okay for ages but factually can't be, it must be going off, and without a date how are you suppose to know how long it is past its best before time.

I used to use the dates as helpful information but not a deciding one. The supermarkets themselves will know but we can't be trusted to not throw away perfectly eatable food. It's nannying, and as useful and logical as the ukgc autoplay ban.

I do like that myself, as from experience I regularly eat (all well refrigerated) eggs 2-3 weeks past stamped date, yogurts 2 weeks past, lettuce 1 week and numerous other items. Bugger-all wrong with them, the nanny dates are over cautious. I hate wasting food, especially as Brexit has reduced us to near-starvation. Simple - if it smells like a turd, looks like a turd, it is a turd. Otherwise it's good to consume. Your natural human instincts and senses will tell you when not to eat something.

 

[dunover]

Doing a bit of a disservice to Dunover's Cheesy Bits, sorry bites.

I think my cheesy poofs and straws are UK manufactured so as with many other things were never endangered. I seem to recall it's the EU stuff like prosecco and wine and shitty French cheses etc. @ChopleyIOM reliably told us once that would be problematic. Which they never were.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I think my cheesy poofs and straws are UK manufactured so as with many other things were never endangered. I seem to recall it's the EU stuff like prosecco and wine and shitty French cheses etc. @ChopleyIOM reliably told us once that would be problematic. Which they never were.

There was a massive logistics exercise undertaken by all the major supermarkets and their supply chains to keep shelves fully stocked after the transition period ended, they threw a huge amount of money and resources at it (remember, Brexit has added around 6% onto the price of everyone's shopping, and this is part of why). So yes, the end result for the consumer was, in the main, that they didn't notice much difference when they went shopping, but there was a fuckton of very expensive logistics work behind the scenes to make it happen - and those costs were passed onto the consumer.

Again though, we're back to 'Brexit didn't make this shit, and you said it might make it shit, so Brexit wins', it's a sign of how far the Brexit star has fallen that this is what we're left with.

All the lofty Brexit promises have crumbled to dust, every single one, so instead we get dunover's annual shopping report. NEWS JUST IN - DUNOVER BUYS CARROTS, BREXIT IS VINDICATED.

 

[dunover]

There was a massive logistics exercise undertaken by all the major supermarkets and their supply chains to keep shelves fully stocked after the transition period ended, they threw a huge amount of money and resources at it (remember, Brexit has added around 6% onto the price of everyone's shopping, and this is part of why). So yes, the end result for the consumer was, in the main, that they didn't notice much difference when they went shopping, but there was a fuckton of very expensive logistics work behind the scenes to make it happen - and those costs were passed onto the consumer.

Again though, we're back to 'Brexit didn't make this shit, and you said it might make it shit, so Brexit wins', it's a sign of how far the Brexit star has fallen that this is what we're left with.

All the lofty Brexit promises have crumbled to dust, every single one, so instead we get dunover's annual shopping report. NEWS JUST IN - DUNOVER BUYS CARROTS, BREXIT IS VINDICATED.

Well, your doom-laden prophecies (usually copied and pasted from woke/lefty/remoaner press) failed to materialize. Doom predicted for supply of sprouts, turkeys and every other item deemed reliant upon EU labour funnily enough were plentiful - as usual. These pseudo-intellectual, patronizing and condescending spoutings always make one big mistake - omitting to factor in human ingenuity and capitalism. For those of you at the back, this preceded any economic treaty, EEA, EEC, EU or whatever acronym is in fashion now. In plain English it means that in a free economy where persons are able to create, own and hold wealth then if there's a demand and a profit to be made, it will be supplied. Every time. And still is, Brexit or no Brexit.

SHOCK HORROR! Businesses and people are far more creative and adaptable (despite being scores of points below remainers in the IQ stakes apparently) than the EU, their bureaucrats and certain elements of the the press would have you believe.

Damn those freethinking and acting individuals operating outside of the big kollectiv. Wankers!

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Well, your doom-laden prophecies (usually copied and pasted from woke/lefty/remoaner press) failed to materialize. Doom predicted for supply of sprouts, turkeys and every other item deemed reliant upon EU labour funnily enough were plentiful - as usual. These pseudo-intellectual, patronizing and condescending spoutings always make one big mistake - omitting to factor in human ingenuity and capitalism. For those of you at the back, this preceded any economic treaty, EEA, EEC, EU or whatever acronym is in fashion now. In plain English it means that in a free economy where persons are able to create, own and hold wealth then if there's a demand and a profit to be made, it will be supplied. Every time. And still is, Brexit or no Brexit.

SHOCK HORROR! Businesses and people are far more creative and adaptable (despite being scores of points below remainers in the IQ stakes apparently) than the EU, their bureaucrats and certain elements of the the press would have you believe.

Damn those freethinking and acting individuals operating outside of the big kollectiv. Wankers!

Yes it's true, some of the fears of Remain weren't realised, this is a good thing, no one wants to see people struggling to get their weekly shop in. (But again, it costs 6% more than it would have done without Brexit.)

The key point here is Remain, by definition, never wanted any of this shit in the first place, it was done to us, against our will. So the bigger issue here is where have all the Brexit promises gone? The stuff that Brexit was sold on, all the benefits and improvements it would bring to the UK and the lives of your average UK citizen, where's all that? Remain said all along that the Brexit promises were lies, and so it has proved to be the case.

Remain had some hits and misses with its predictions, but Leave has missed every single one, Brexit has failed entirely on its terms, right down to stopping the dinghies coming across the channel, and setting fire to the Dublin Regulation in the process, which actually makes it worse.

You're literally presenting the fact you went shopping as some kind of slam dunk ownage of doom-mongering Remoaners, like that's some kind of win, 'Hey folks, guess what, we got Brexit done, and we got our shopping done! Take that Remoaners!'

 

[mack341]

I do like that myself, as from experience I regularly eat (all well refrigerated) eggs 2-3 weeks past stamped date, yogurts 2 weeks past, lettuce 1 week and numerous other items. Bugger-all wrong with them, the nanny dates are over cautious. I hate wasting food, especially as Brexit has reduced us to near-starvation. Simple - if it smells like a turd, looks like a turd, it is a turd. Otherwise it's good to consume. Your natural human instincts and senses will tell you when not to eat something.

I also hate food waste and often keep and use eggs after the use by, probably 10 days - tho I did not realise nearer 3 wks was a possibility!

Lidls never used to have dates on a lot of veg, sometimes they'd have a picked date, but often the potatoes would be rank, sprouting in the bag or with shades of green skin you had to peer closely through the brown plastic bag to notice, broccoli going yellow, they were anti food waste champions, way ahead of their time!

I suppose some or even many seeing a 'best' before date don't realise it is a very rough estimate, and best doesn't mean shouldn't eat beyond that or not good for you to do so.

Afaik they haven't applied it to dairy or meat/fish/poultry, I bought a chicken sandwich the other day it was reduced in price as the use by was that day, so theoretically I could eat it at 11.58pm and be okay but 3 mins later it's poisonous, it doesn't make sense and is wasteful when you multiply by the millions of food objects/products.

 

[paul7388]

I also hate food waste and often keep and use eggs after the use by, probably 10 days - tho I did not realise nearer 3 wks was a possibility!

Lidls never used to have dates on a lot of veg, sometimes they'd have a picked date, but often the potatoes would be rank, sprouting in the bag or with shades of green skin you had to peer closely through the brown plastic bag to notice, broccoli going yellow, they were anti food waste champions, way ahead of their time!

I suppose some or even many seeing a 'best' before date don't realise it is a very rough estimate, and best doesn't mean shouldn't eat beyond that or not good for you to do so.

Afaik they haven't applied it to dairy or meat/fish/poultry, I bought a chicken sandwich the other day it was reduced in price as the use by was that day, so theoretically I could eat it at 11.58pm and be okay but 3 mins later it's poisonous, it doesn't make sense and is wasteful when you multiply by the millions of food objects/products.

The best before date simply means the quicker you use something the better the quality it should be but normally nothing in it that will harm you a few days after the date as long as it still seems okay to eat.

Whereas if it has a use by date instead off a best before date it's not recommended to eat it after the date as the product or ingredients in it could start to go off after certain amount of time and could make person ill or give food poisoning once it starts to go.off.

 

[mack341]

The best before date simply means the quicker you use something the better the quality it should be but normally nothing in it that will harm you a few days after the date as long as it still seems okay to eat.

Whereas if it has a use by date instead if a best before date it's not recommended to eat it after the date as the product or ingredients in it could start to go off after certain a out of time and could make person ill or give food poisoning once it starts to go.off.

I wonder whether other coutries/regions are following suit, like the US and the EU. [In a similar way autoplay is allowed on slots all round the world, for player's convenience and enjoyment, except the uk, does the ukgc know better than everyone else how to combat problem gambling.]

I'd have preferred they kept the dates system but with some better text and explanation, which can be clearly seen.

Sainsbury’s has calculated that its own changes alone could prevent the wasting of up to 11,000 tonnes of food every year, or 17 million individual packages of products

The supermarkets are all keen for it, which is a bit odd on the surface, business wise, as people at home chucking away some veg and going out & buying some more to replace it is good for their profit line, therefore it could actually be the supermarket/suppliers themselves that are chucking away tonnes of food due to the dates, because they cannot sell it quick enough at the price demanded.

 

[mack341]

Daily Express:

THE EU is sitting on a huge debt "volcano" that everyone pretends is dormant but is preparing to erupt with destructive force, a top analyst has warned.

Vesuvius is not expected to erupt any time soon but it is a different matter for the euro, Batstone-Carr warned. “Europe’s population and financial markets blithely go about their business seemingly unaware of the pressures building in the vast magma chamber that is the regional banking system.”

Under the single currency, fiscally sound Germany stands behind debt issued by poorer southern states.

This is an effective subsidy, allowing “the more vulnerable economies of Italy, Spain, Greece and others to piggyback on Germany’s debt rating”, he said

Latest European Central Bank (ECB) data shows these subsidies are growing, with TARGET 2 cross-border eurozone transfers suffering huge imbalances that “are growing with every day that passes”, Batstone-Carr said.

Germany is by far the biggest creditor, owed a massive €1.23trillion, while Italy has a deficit of €670billion followed by Spain at €484billion.

Some countries’ central banks are now holding Germany hostage by using the system to fund their own insolvent commercial banks, he added.

We risk “an eruption at the core of the European project’s financial system”, that would trigger “a chain of events which could escalate swiftly into something severe”, Batstone-Carr said, calling the danger “spine-tingling”.

Julian Jessop, economics fellow at the Institute of Economic Affairs, said the financial imbalances at the heart of the euro area are likely to grow. “The single currency will only survive if the stronger members are willing to prop up the weaker ones, which requires large subsidies and debt sharing.”

He said this problem has been brewing for some time. “The end of the long period of very low interest rates is now coming to an end and this will worsen the problems faced by high debt countries like Italy and Greece.”

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If this does happen the old UK and brexit will no doubt, somehow, get the blame by remoaner msm, who will probably contend the EU system was fine with no inherent flaws until a leading member upped and left.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Daily Express:

THE EU is sitting on a huge debt "volcano" that everyone pretends is dormant but is preparing to erupt with destructive force, a top analyst has warned.

Vesuvius is not expected to erupt any time soon but it is a different matter for the euro, Batstone-Carr warned. “Europe’s population and financial markets blithely go about their business seemingly unaware of the pressures building in the vast magma chamber that is the regional banking system.”

Under the single currency, fiscally sound Germany stands behind debt issued by poorer southern states.

This is an effective subsidy, allowing “the more vulnerable economies of Italy, Spain, Greece and others to piggyback on Germany’s debt rating”, he said

Latest European Central Bank (ECB) data shows these subsidies are growing, with TARGET 2 cross-border eurozone transfers suffering huge imbalances that “are growing with every day that passes”, Batstone-Carr said.

Germany is by far the biggest creditor, owed a massive €1.23trillion, while Italy has a deficit of €670billion followed by Spain at €484billion.

Some countries’ central banks are now holding Germany hostage by using the system to fund their own insolvent commercial banks, he added.

We risk “an eruption at the core of the European project’s financial system”, that would trigger “a chain of events which could escalate swiftly into something severe”, Batstone-Carr said, calling the danger “spine-tingling”.

Julian Jessop, economics fellow at the Institute of Economic Affairs, said the financial imbalances at the heart of the euro area are likely to grow. “The single currency will only survive if the stronger members are willing to prop up the weaker ones, which requires large subsidies and debt sharing.”

He said this problem has been brewing for some time. “The end of the long period of very low interest rates is now coming to an end and this will worsen the problems faced by high debt countries like Italy and Greece.”

-----------

If this does happen the old UK and brexit will no doubt, somehow, get the blame by remoaner msm, who will probably contend the EU system was fine with no inherent flaws until a leading member upped and left.

That's quite a leap mack! So there's something that might happen in the future, and if it does, Remoaners will blame Brexit.

The dynamic being described there is nothing new, there have always been stresses and strains within the single currency, precisely because not all economies in the EU are created equal. We've seen it go pear-shaped before with Greece, for example.

One of the best things Gordon Brown ever did was keep the UK out of the single currency, which I was never a fan of, or advocate for.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

A decent analysis of the current state of play when it comes to Brexit, not from a particularly partisan viewpoint either, just making the case (entirely correctly) that Brexit is continuing to harm the UK economically, and no politician really dares to go anywhere near it, or engage with it properly.

A good read, and not too long either.

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[Daavid63]

Chopsy, Twice you quoted CNN...The yank equivalent to the Guardian.

Go cry into your Muesli??

Brexit is done and I love every second remainers keep whinging about it. Have a Happy Brexit new year?

 

[pinnit2014]

TBF to Chopley (and whilst i don't agree with his end of the world Guardian naysaying): economically, there's very little benefit to Brexit to be seen, quite the opposite and there isn't even a road map to get to the promised land. But, equally, it was never just a vote on fiscal policy and you'd be pretty naive to think otherwise.

Living with someone who works for a company in export/import they complain about it but it's nowhere near the doom scenario painted by some but, again, equally, wondering: why?

 

[pinnit2014]

Best bit of advice i heard recently was in a podcast by Neil Degrasse (focus on his excellent Cosmos programmes and not the recent 'accusations')

'I only read two 2 types of books/articles: those i don't understand and those with whom i disagree with' - we could probably all benefit from what (you too Chopley )

 

[ChopleyIOM]

TBF to Chopley (and whilst i don't agree with his end of the world Guardian naysaying): economically, there's very little benefit to Brexit to be seen, quite the opposite and there isn't even a road map to get to the promised land. But, equally, it was never just a vote on fiscal policy and you'd be pretty naive to think otherwise.

Living with someone who works for a company in export/import they complain about it but it's nowhere near the doom scenario painted by some but, again, equally, wondering: why?

This is the thing though pinnit, it's fine to have opinions about exactly where Brexit has landed in some regards, and yes, the jury is arguably still out on some aspects of it, but as you very rightly state, there is literally no plan whatsoever to get us to where the 'good stuff' might be. (And indeed no evidence to suggest good stuff is even on the horizon.)

I simply don't understand, like, my brain fails to process on a fundamental level, the idea that 'owning the libs' or 'seeing Remainers cry Remainer tears' makes any of this shit worthwhile, if someone is calibrating their happiness based upon how sad another human being feels about something, then that's a fucked-up state of affairs. I don't want to see unhappy people, because it's not nice to be miserable, so why find joy in the sadness of others?

I've said this before but I'll repeat it again, if Brexit had turned out to be a towering success, and Leavers could point to all the stuff it'd made loads better, I'd be the first to put my hand up and say, 'Fair play folks, I fucked up, you got your Brexit and it worked out well, good job', to be clear about this, I thought such an eventuality was massively unlikely, to the point of being a near impossibility, but it was a scenario that could have played out.

And here's the other thing, if Brexit works out and is a success, then it's a success for the UK, the UK does well, UK citizens do well, we all get better off and live in a more prosperous and successful country, and yes, if you wanted to stop those small boats coming across the channel, you got that too. (So why wouldn't even me, as a Remainer, want it to be a success? I don't want the UK to fail, I don't want the UK to be weaker.)

But literally none of it has happened.

And somehow we find ourselves in this bizarre Twilight Zone where dunover reports back every year on his ability to buy fucking carrots from a multi-billion dollar supermarket chain, and the only other measure of 'Brexit Success' is how sad other people are feeling about its utter and complete failure.

The Brexiteers got everything they wanted, the hardest possible Brexit short of a complete No Deal scenario, and here we are on the cusp on 2023, and all they've got is 'LOL you're sad and that makes me happy'.

Way to go guys, you totally nailed this one.

 

[pinnit2014]

Problem has been this mix of economic/fiscal benefits, social, legal, nebulous talk of getting back sovereignty (without really defining what that looks like), immigration - you get this cauldron with people voting for it for different reasons.

I didn't vote for it on the basis that the Brexit Team never sold it to me: had they said: 5 years of slight downturn, next 20 of major upturn - that was a tick for me in terms of the economy. But they didn't (though to be fair, the Remain campaign made hard work of batting that away) and if it does occur, which to be honest i very much doubt, i'd be surprised if i live to see it.

Immigration drain resources? I get that one - we have a small Island etc but the numbers quoted never stacked up their either

Impinging on our legal system - well, again, i can hand pick some in support of that but a lot of directives (EU Working time etc i agree with) so again, was never sold on that.

I do feel those claim Brexit hasn't been adverse on the economy as, lets be diplomatic, clutching at straws - the data, across many sources, completely refutes that. Spock would have a heart attack.

There has however been interesting questions, kinda related, re CV-19 - about the issues of a global supply chain - eg. the microchip shortage and the havoc things like that wrecked for products - possibly forcing companies to look inwards, not outwards because of that.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Well don't worry, Rishi says that freeports are the big thing we're going to get out of Brexit. As Andrew Marr points out you can have freeports as an EU member, and GE pulled out of their planned investment (which Rishi cites here) earlier in the year, so that's a lie. Also, the freeports we did have weren't doing very well so Cameron nixed them back in 2012.

But other than that, yay freeports. (For the record, freeports are basically tax-dodging schemes for big corporations, so don't let anyone tell you they're going to boost the economy of make the lives of your average folks any better.)

Over six years after the referendum and that's all the UK's prime minister has on Brexit, lies about tax dodging schemes.

 

[mack341]

Rees mogg has got a lovely bonfire ready for Rishi, he just doesn't seem too keen to light the match.

 

[mack341]

ft:

ExxonMobil is suing the EU in a bid to force it to scrap the bloc’s new windfall tax on oil groups, arguing Brussels exceeded its legal authority by imposing the levy.

Exxon said the lawsuit was filed on Wednesday by its German and Dutch subsidiaries at the European General Court in Luxembourg City. It challenges the Council of the EU’s legal authority to impose the new tax — a power historically reserved for sovereign countries — and its use of emergency powers to secure member states’ approval for the measure.

Exxon was now considering “future multibillion-euro investments” in the continent, Norton added. “Whether we invest here primarily depends on how attractive and globally competitive Europe will be.”

The European parliament has protested against the commission’s repeated use of Article 122, saying that it undermines the democratic process even if laws would take much longer to pass with its involvement.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Arch-Brexiteer and famous cretin Daniel Hannan, having completely run out of people/organisations/hamsters to blame for the shitshow that Brexit and the UK have turned out to be, has now worked out whose fault it all ultimately is.

It's your fault! Bloody British public! Maybe we should have a referendum on replacing the British with some better people, or something.

Truly remarkable stuff.

(To give you an idea of this guy's track record, he's the one who assured us all, pre-referendum, that absolutely no one was talking about threatening the UK's place in the Single Market.)

So I hope you all feel suitably chastened and are going to go away and think about the mistakes you've made that have caused Daniel to get so upset.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Oh hang on Lord David Frost - (remember he's the one who actually negotiated our dogshit deal with the EU and told everyone how great it was, like he thought we'd all just forget about it, or something) - is blaming everyone else as well, apparently we're not believing in it enough and that's why it's not working. Not because it's crap.

I swear to god I was writing better stuff than this when I was studying GCSE English and was thinking far more about how I fancied one of lasses in the class, than actually concentrating on my work.

In a way though, this is all you need to see how Brexit has failed. Because all the people who advocated for it have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING they can point to that it's made better, or ever will make better (because, spoiler alert, it won't) - now it's just the Spiderman circular firing squad meme, pointing the fingers of blame at everyone else, but never looking at themselves and their part in it all. (Like Farage and his 'Britain is broken' Tweet, and I'm just like, yeah Nigel, and whose fault is that eh?)

 

[Daavid63]

It's your fault! Bloody British public! Maybe we should have a referendum on replacing the British with some better people, or something.

Really !!

The amount of dinghy divers arriving on English shores the last year, it seems to me the EU are pushing them across for that exact purpose. All going to be Labour voters that's for sure.
Just a thought eh chopsy.
2023 another great year to revel in remainer tears??

Enjoy?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Remember the lies you were told.

I wish it had gone the other way, I just hope the damage from the lies get fixed sooner rather than later.

In the meantime, don't get ill.

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[ChopleyIOM]

Mate of mine is in Turin at the moment, he's enjoying his Brexit Dividends whilst he's there.

LOL.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Always rely on Private Eye.

 

[pinnit2014]

Or...

As part of the official Westminster PR troupe, that would send Nicola as well up the walls

 

[mack341]

Interesting article on the psychological strains some remainers went through:

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Extract: Part of the problem for Remainers is that their emotional reaction to Brexiteers makes them feel better, even if it fails to address the fundamental cause of their anxiety. "Trouble is, in the longer term it's not really doing anything other than keeping us going round in circles, constantly talking about Brexit and winding ourselves up," he said.

If the Brexit Anxiety Disorder theory holds true in real life, Britain’s angry Remainers can be expected to quickly return to more “normal,” rational behavior once the conflict has been resolved. In the case of Brexit, this means people grabbing hold of any certainty that comes along, accepting whatever deal the U.K. and EU are able to strike.

“Once this goal-conflict has been resolved, then there will be a major change in these individual and collective psychological states, and the Brexit debate may become more fact-faced rather than resembling the feelings and thoughts that result from hearing a disturbing noise in the night,” Corr said.

Stuart said this may be a little too optimistic though.

“Those suffering anxiety might return to more ‘normal,’ ‘rational’ behavior if the context around them changes,” he said. Clinically, however, this is often a forlorn hope, because contexts don't usually tend to change enough.

"In that case, what I'd try to do is help the person become more flexible — in short, to learn how to live with the anxiety, tolerate the uncertainty, and work out how they can continue to engage with what truly matters to them in life, rather than getting caught up trying to change things they can't change.”

In other words, Remainers may just need to relax and get over it.

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I have a different idea to best tackle brexit related stress, based on transcendental meditation where you repeat certain phrases silently, in this case: Brexit is wonderful, brexit is beautiful; farage is brilliant, rees mogg wise...and so on etc... give it a go Chop

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Remember when David Frost and Johnson - (and dunover, in this very thread!) - were telling us what a great deal they'd got? As it has become obvious over time that it was in fact, a totally shit deal that has permanently cost the UK about 5% of its GDP and is continuing to hurt the UK's economy every single day, old Frosty has tried to pull this, in quite the most breath-taking act of passing the buck you're ever likely to see.

I guess he's very much at the 'denial' stage of grief.

As ever with Brexit and the multiple disasters it has visited upon the UK, it must always, always, be someone else's fault.

 

[pinnit2014]

Alexandra, so good they named her twice, is a bit of a Frost fan (given those messages) though so not sure we can trust what she's saying.

Quite enlightening though: i didn't actually know there was any leverage in the first place

 

[mack341]

She ought to follow her own advice at the end, all she's done there is regurgitate a load of platitudes.

I think the Irish pm, or whatever he is, basically said the other week the EU had screwed the uk over with the n.ireland agreement, because they were using brinkmanship and bullying, and we had to get everything [the eu uk exit deal] passed through a parliament of which nearly half did not accept the referendum result, saying it was guidance at best and voters hadn't voted on the specifics like the custom union.

Edit: It is interesting why Boris didn't hold a GE first and then do the exit deal with a healthy majority of MPs, as Chopley posted before BJ wrote a piece for the spectator iirc arguing for us to stay in, which was never published. So he was a bit lukewarm over brexit in truth imo, did not fully use uk leverage available and preferred an amiable deal. There was a pic doing the rounds of boris being clapped on the back by all the various EU countries leaders with beaming smiles when the deal was signed.

 

[pinnit2014]

tbf (not read Leo V's words to be fair) Mack the ones who screwed N Ireland over the protocol were the UK Govt itself. You just need, as i was last week, there to feel the resentment towards them - it filters through to even the 'ardent' of Unionists - the anger isn't towards the EU.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

tbf (not read Leo V's words to be fair) Mack the ones who screwed N Ireland over the protocol were the UK Govt itself. You just need, as i was last week, there to feel the resentment towards them - it filters through to even the 'ardent' of Unionists - the anger isn't towards the EU.

Varadkar was being very diplomatic, saying that, essentially, 'mistakes were made on both sides' when it came to the NI Protocol. Of course he knows the historical context as well as we all do, which is to say that the Tories were basically a bunch of feral cats fighting in a sack at that point, who couldn't be trusted to even remotely honour any commitment they made (which reached its nadir with serial liar Boris Johnson), so yes, the EU took a pretty hard line when it came to the specifics of the NI Protocol.

(Like many here at CM, I'm old enough to remember when the IRA were blowing stuff up on the UK mainland on a regular basis, it's important to remember how historic the Good Friday Agreement was, and all credit to John Major and his Conservative government for really getting the ball rolling on it, and then Blair (for all his (MANY!) faults) for seeing it to completion.)

I will gladly defer to pinnit's obviously greater and personal knowledge on this one, however my understanding on this has also been that people aren't angry with the EU, they're angry with the UK government for absolutely chucking NI under the fucking bus.

The absolute state of this fucking scarecrow pissed-up doesn't give a fuck rich twat motherfucker who will say anything to anyone, at any time, if he thinks it will get him through the next thirty minutes.

And to think the UK gambled its place in the world and its future prosperity (or lack thereof) on this absolute wanker.

 

[mack341]

My knowledge of the intricacies of politics in N.Ireland is not great, but presume unionists feel like the NI deal cut them adrift from Britain [Apparently even a new uk licensed medicine cannot be used there atm because of the effect of the protocol].

As the uk govt negotiated and signed off this deal you can understand loyalists pointing the finger at them, but did the EU use excessive brinkmanship, holding the uk to ransom, no free trade deal on offer unless we get want we want over ireland?

What's changed is the unionists are standing their ground, afaik not agreeing to restart the executive until the protocol is altered, I say good on them as it cannot be easy, but they're doing what they feel is right and crucial to their national identity.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

My knowledge of the intricacies of politics in N.Ireland is not great, but presume unionists feel like the NI deal cut them adrift from Britain [Apparently even a new uk licensed medicine cannot be used there atm because of the effect of the protocol].

As the uk govt negotiated and signed off this deal you can understand loyalists pointing the finger at them, but did the EU use excessive brinkmanship, holding the uk to ransom, no free trade deal on offer unless we get want we want over ireland?

What's changed is the unionists are standing their ground, afaik not agreeing to restart the executive until the protocol is altered, I say good on them as it cannot be easy, but they're doing what they feel is right and crucial to their national identity.

The EU didn't use any brinkmanship at all, they were more than happy to keep extending the transition period, not least because they knew NI was going to be difficult, but Johnson and his shower of clowns just lied their arses off and hand-waved it all away (as per the video clip I linked above), and carried on regardless. (If Dominic Cummings is to be believed, Johnson literally didn't even understand (or care to learn of) the consequences of what it was he was signing up to.)

On top of this of course, the DUP blew their own feet off in magnificent fashion, as with Johnson I am not entirely sure if the explanation is stupidity or ignorance, or perhaps a generous dose of both, but if there was a top prize for 'emptying a bucket of shit over your own head', the DUP certainly wins it.

If the Unionists had considered their national identity to be important, (and understood what Brexit actually meant, especially Johnson's version of it), they'd have resisted Brexit with every fibre of their beings. Like everyone else, they were sold a pack of lies, didn't care to get their heads around the details, dismissed warnings by people who actually knew what they were talking about as PROJECT FEAR (now comprehensively rebranded as Project Reality), and the rest, as they say, is history.

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The Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) was an ardent supporter of Brexit during and after the 2016 referendum. The expectation was that Brexit would strengthen unionism. The reality is that the decision to leave the EU on the hardest possible exit deal – as advocated by the DUP – is now challenging unionism at its core. The unintended consequence is the prospect of a united Ireland looming on the horizon.

The party leadership

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to the forces that created this outcome. The party backed “Leave” in the 2016 referendum, then gained disproportionate power following the 2017 UK general elections: the votes of its ten MPs in Westminster propped up Theresa May’s government after she lost the Conservatives’ majority. But the DUP then refused to support her withdrawal deal – even though it would have treated Northern Ireland the same as Great Britain – and backed May’s successor Boris Johnson.

It is becoming more and more evident that the DUP’s support for Brexit has been a seismic error. Brexit has severely weakened its future electoral prospects and it is threatening the future of Northern Ireland as it has led to a border in the Irish Sea. Believing anything Boris Johnson has promised over the last few years has left the DUP disappointed.

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that “no British Conservative government could or should sign up to any […] agreement” requiring custom checks in the Irish Sea – a year before he was in Downing Street and then proceeded to do exactly that.

 

[mack341]

But the DUP then refused to support her withdrawal deal – even though it would have treated Northern Ireland the same as Great Britain – and backed May’s successor Boris Johnson.

You'll have to refresh me on the difference between May's deal and bojo's, how hers was better for unionists seeing as they rejected it.

I think at some point northern ireland has a vote on the protocol, vague memory of reading that, iirc it can only continue if backed by a vote at a certain future point in time, not sure if it's 4 years.

On the rest of your post I'd rather not comment, however I'm sure the DUP have given the current situation a lot of thought and what needs to change with the protocol. Also the EU and UK now seemingly in agreement there needs to be change.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

You'll have to refresh me on the difference between May's deal and bojo's, how hers was better for unionists seeing as they rejected it.

May's deal basically put the whole of the UK into the 'backstop' arrangement, rather than just NI. It was a fairly inelegant solution in some regards, but then again it was a solution to what was basically an intractable problem, so we can't hold that against it. Crucially however, it meant no border between NI and UK.

The DUP were opposed to it because they thought it might lead to the UK following EU rules for too long, so like turkeys voting for Christmas, they helped to kill it off in the Commons, and were ultimately rewarded with Johnson, who immediately did what May had, in fairness to her, refused to do, which was stick a border in the Irish Sea, and chuck NI under the bus in the process.

So yes, May's deal would have been much better for NI and the Unionists, who were of course very clearly warned about where their actions would ultimately lead, but apparently it was something called 'Project Fear', if you remember that.....

Ahhhh Brexit, half tragedy, half farce, 100% a total and absolute fuck-up.

 

[mack341]

Done a bit more digging, as the word 'backstop' never really explained itself to me, seems to be a word deliberately chosen because it doesn't mean anything in common english parlance.

From euronews on May's deal:

Under the deal, the whole of the UK would remain in a “single customs territory” – seen as a temporary customs union – with the EU until at least July 1, 2020. This could be extended or terminated, but only by mutual agreement. Tariff arrangements would be the same as now.

This infuriated many Brexiteers as it would prevent the UK from applying trade deals with other countries if tariffs are removed.
The UK government argued that neither the UK nor the EU wanted the backstop and so it was unlikely to last. ?

Northern Ireland would also stay aligned to some EU rules, including in some areas of the single market. This would avoid checks at the Irish border — but would mean some controls between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.

The UK, including Northern Ireland, and the EU also committed themselves to a “level playing field” over tax, the environment, social policy, state aid and competition. The UK would have to align with future EU changes. (Under the revised deal later secured by Boris Johnson, this issue was removed from the Withdrawal Agreement and included in the Political Declaration.)

Although independent bodies are given a role, the European Commission and the European Court of Justice retain major powers of oversight concerning Northern Ireland — and to some extent for the UK as a whole.

To exit the backstop, the deal stipulated that either side could propose such a move to a Joint Committee — which had the power to consult joint UK-Ireland institutions. The UK could not unilaterally leave — although the government argued that changes agreed with the EU meant the UK could not be trapped in the backstop indefinitely. [yeah this really sounds like honouring the referendum result!]

--------------

I think the unionists made the right decision, they couldn't know bojo/tories would stitch them up, and so now they are trying to remedy this situation by forcing the EU and UK's hands.

 

[pinnit2014]

My knowledge of the intricacies of politics in N.Ireland is not great, but presume unionists feel like the NI deal cut them adrift from Britain [Apparently even a new uk licensed medicine cannot be used there atm because of the effect of the protocol].

As the uk govt negotiated and signed off this deal you can understand loyalists pointing the finger at them, but did the EU use excessive brinkmanship, holding the uk to ransom, no free trade deal on offer unless we get want we want over ireland?

What's changed is the unionists are standing their ground, afaik not agreeing to restart the executive until the protocol is altered, I say good on them as it cannot be easy, but they're doing what they feel is right and crucial to their national identity.

I get that...but at the same time the EU didn't start it so to speak, so asking them to play nice is like asking the Bully to give you back your apple.

The whole Brexit has created a dividing line between previously ardent Unionists and the current Tory Govt - it's plastered on roundabouts everywhere.

 

[mack341]

I get that...but at the same time the EU didn't start it so to speak, so asking them to play nice is like asking the Bully to give you back your apple.

The whole Brexit has created a dividing line between previously ardent Unionists and the current Tory Govt - it's plastered on roundabouts everywhere.

Possibly this is a good time to smoke out the uk govt regarding N.Ireland and unionism, it has to mean something to the uk govt as well at the end of the day.

I don't think the IRA will start up again, the fundraisers in the US wouldn't be tolerated. And with all those major US firms with headquarters in the republic I can't see it as they'd be tarnished.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I think the unionists made the right decision, they couldn't know bojo/tories would stitch them up, and so now they are trying to remedy this situation by forcing the EU and UK's hands.

C'mon mack, I genuinely try and see both sides of the argument when it comes to this stuff and debate from that position, but not suspecting/knowing that Johnson is going to stitch you up? We're into bears shitting in the woods and the Pope praying territory at this point.

It's not like everyone didn't get many very clear warnings. This is a man who'd been sacked twice for lying, had colluded with a convicted criminal to get a journalist beaten up, is a serial adulterer, and can't even tell you how many children he's fathered.

OH NO I HAD NO IDEA HE MIGHT TURN OUT TO BE AN ARSEHOLE TO US AS WELL, SAY SHOCKED DUP. THERE WAS NO WAY TO SEE THIS COMING.

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[mack341]

C'mon mack, I genuinely try and see both sides of the argument when it comes to this stuff and debate from that position, but not suspecting/knowing that Johnson is going to stitch you up? We're into bears shitting in the woods and the Pope praying territory at this point.

It's not like everyone didn't get many very clear warnings. This is a man who'd been sacked twice for lying, had colluded with a convicted criminal to get a journalist beaten up, is a serial adulterer, and can't even tell you how many children he's fathered.

OH NO I HAD NO IDEA HE MIGHT TURN OUT TO BE AN ARSEHOLE TO US AS WELL, SAY SHOCKED DUP. THERE WAS NO WAY TO SEE THIS COMING.

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View attachment 178710

Yes but the problems with the alternative, may's deal, were known, whereas how the protocol would play out under bojo's leadership was an 'unknown known' to quote donald rumsfield. And now the unionists have had to draw a line in the sand and say 'this needs fixing'.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I get that...but at the same time the EU didn't start it so to speak, so asking them to play nice is like asking the Bully to give you back your apple.

The whole Brexit has created a dividing line between previously ardent Unionists and the current Tory Govt - it's plastered on roundabouts everywhere.

This is the rotten crux of Brexit for me, this idea that the UK can adopt some sort of 'victim status' because the EU is trying to punish us, or dissuade anyone else from leaving by being arseholes, or generally making the UK's life harder out of spite.

Like you say pinnit, the EU never wanted this, (and neither did most of the UK's population, going off the absolutely consistent polling that says the whole thing has been a terrible mistake), they liked having the UK as a member, even if we were slightly troublesome and made demands all the time, we were a major economic and military power, they wanted us to be part of the club. Yes we paid into that club but we got a hell of a lot back in return. (As borne out by the fact our GDP has dived 5% since leaving and we're the only major economy that's still smaller than it was than before the pandemic hit.)

We were told the UK held all the cards and could choose whatever destiny it wished for, but apparently the meany old EU can still kick us in the bollocks and it's their fault it's all gone wrong, and all we've got to show for it is a crap trade deal with New Zealand that's so good...... FOR THEM..... that their own news channels run reports expressing disbelief at it.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Yes but the problems with the alternative, may's deal, were known, whereas how the protocol would play out under bojo's leadership was an 'unknown known' to quote donald rumsfield. And now the unionists have had to draw a line in the sand and say 'this needs fixing'.

But May's deal at least kept NI on the same footing as the UK, Brexit itself meant that a rupture was going to happen somewhere, a border had to go up somewhere, the only variable was where that border was going to end up.

There was never any way that the UK could leave the EU, with NI having a land border with the Republic Of Ireland, that didn't result in a border going up, this was explained extensively and clearly by those pesky experts at the time, but instead enough of the country decided to go with Johnson and his pack-of-lies 'OVEN READY DEAL'.

You can certainly argue that May's backstop deal would have kept the UK too much 'in' the EU as it were, but it would at least have kept the NI in lockstep with the UK, which is what the DUP said they were most concerned about.

Once they torpedoed May's deal, they opened the door to Johnson, who immediately screwed them over.

This graphic has been doing the rounds since 2016 (albeit updated a few times based on what actually happened), it lays out, absolutely clearly, the 'unicorn' thinking at the heart of Brexit.

 

[pinnit2014]

Possibly this is a good time to smoke out the uk govt regarding N.Ireland and unionism, it has to mean something to the uk govt as well at the end of the day.

I don't think the IRA will start up again, the fundraisers in the US wouldn't be tolerated. And with all those major US firms with headquarters in the republic I can't see it as they'd be tarnished.

Nah, they've been dealing drugs too long to start back up - ditto for their counterparts

 

[aceking123]

The burning question is have we left Europe yet ......................

 

[mack341]

But May's deal at least kept NI on the same footing as the UK, Brexit itself meant that a rupture was going to happen somewhere, a border had to go up somewhere, the only variable was where that border was going to end up.

Yes when you condense it like that I see your point.

You can certainly argue that May's backstop deal would have kept the UK too much 'in' the EU as it were, but it would at least have kept the NI in lockstep with the UK, which is what the DUP said they were most concerned about.

Once they torpedoed May's deal, they opened the door to Johnson, who immediately screwed them over.

Perhaps if the EU had been significantly more flexible [or the uk stronger in negotiations] the backstop might have been more acceptable and voted through parliament.

Johnson has only temporarily screwed them over, if significant changes to the protocol are agreed then the unionists will be back in a better position.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Seems to be a bit of Brexit gloom over at The Torygraph today.

What's being missed here is that the entire project was doomed by design. It's not that it was done badly, the truth is there was no way good to do it, the only variables were how damaging for the UK it would end up being.

'Almost nothing has been achieved' is a little unfair. They’ve done some pretty solid damage to the economy, the Union, the Good Friday Agreement and the UK’s international reputation. That’s quite a lot.