Brexit - whats the difference.....

[goatwack]

No I actually quoted to you what the roles and responsibilities of MPs are. You're just making stuff up.

(You didn't have anything to with the number £350M on the side of a bus, did you?)

You seem to be taking this as an affront to your person and that somehow you're on the 'right side of history'. Maybe you ought to realize that no matter how much either one of us agree or disagree on Brexit, we can't change it. Nor does your one vote determine whether Corbyn or Johnson spearheads British politics after the next GE.

There's also nothing wrong with disputing the rights and wrongs of a Referendum, as it was quite clearly a close-fought thing to put it mildly. I think most would agree that something as monumental as leaving the EU should be decided by a larger margin, say 5-10% either way.

There's also Referendums that have blatantly been disregarded after the fact in other countries no doubt, but the point remains by undermining the Brexit vote before it's been actioned, and seen through, would destroy any integrity of having a democratic vote. Because then we can spend the next four years arguing for a third Referendum and taking cheap virtue-signalling pot shots at each other, about an issue we're just witness to and can't actually change.

Not really sure about the bus quip, I'm not knowledgeable or versed in wit to understand that one. Sorry

 

[steveh35]

You seem to be taking this as an affront to your person and that somehow you're on the 'right side of history'. Maybe you ought to realize that no matter how much either one of us agree or disagree on Brexit, we can't change it. Nor does your one vote determine whether Corbyn or Johnson spearheads British politics after the next GE.

There's also nothing wrong with disputing the rights and wrongs of a Referendum, as it was quite clearly a close-fought thing to put it mildly. I think most would agree that something as monumental as leaving the EU should be decided by a larger margin, say 5-10% either way.

There's also Referendums that have blatantly been disregarded after the fact in other countries no doubt, but the point remains by undermining the Brexit vote before it's been actioned, and seen through, would destroy any integrity of having a democratic vote. Because then we can spend the next four years arguing for a third Referendum and taking cheap virtue-signalling pot shots at each other, about an issue we're just witness to and can't actually change.

Not really sure about the bus quip, I'm not knowledgeable or versed in wit to understand that one. Sorry

A referendum is won on who gets the most votes not 5-10% either way it was known from the start that whichever side got 50.000001% of the vote would be the winner and starting to fiddle the vote to achieve the right outcome is out of order and a margin of 1.2m is NOT a close fought thing, it is a sunstantial margin.

 

[goatwack]

A referendum is won on who gets the most votes not 5-10% either way it was known from the start that whichever side got 50.000001% of the vote would be the winner and starting to fiddle the vote to achieve the right outcome is out of order and a margin of 1.2m is NOT a close fought thing, it is a sunstantial margin.

52-48 is a close-fought thing, what planet is that not

 

[steveh35]

52-48 is a close-fought thing, what planet is that not

No it isn't when it is 1.2m people the largest vote ever in the UK then again you remainers think half a million protesting on the streets is huge so make your mind up is 1.2m close and 0.5m huge?

 

[goatwack]

No it isn't when it is 1.2m people the largest vote ever in the UK then again you remainers think half a million protesting on the streets is huge so make your mind up is 1.2m close and 0.5m huge?

You need to lay off the Extremist Brexiteer Pills and maybe have a lie- down

 

[ChopleyIOM]

No it isn't when it is 1.2m people the largest vote ever in the UK then again you remainers think half a million protesting on the streets is huge so make your mind up is 1.2m close and 0.5m huge?

Holy shit.

 

[steveh35]

Holy shit.

Oh here he is Juncker's personal arse licker knew you would be on to back up goatie you remainers all stick together/

 

[goatwack]

Well, that was personable

 

[goatwack]

Also to add: I'm a Remainer

There, I said it!

 

[Mr_Slot5]

Wait, now I AM confused. I thought goatie was a leaver

 

[goatwack]

Wait, now I AM confused. I thought goatie was a leaver

I'll be f*cking damned if I know

 

[steveh35]

Wait, now I AM confused. I thought goatie was a leaver

Listen he has an avatar of a black man so clearly he doesn't know which way to turn

 

[goatwack]

Not just any black man I'll have you know

But it's ok, Jesus still loves you bruh

 

[Borgie]

I'll be f*cking damned if I know

I was about to say that ... he has no clue.

He thought you meant should he remain in the pub or leave and go to off licence.

 

[mack341]

Bojo mentioned IOM kippers earlier in the final leadership hustings for anyone remotely interested, the EU is apparently making life more difficult for a kipper seller there, another example of their needless, bossy boots meddling...

 

[goatwack]

Swines. Trying to lay down the hussle for their #1 export

 

[pinnit2014]

Bojo mentioned IOM kippers earlier in the final leadership hustings for anyone remotely interested, the EU is apparently making life more difficult for a kipper seller there, another example of their needless, bossy boots meddling...

Messing with the Kippers is a step too far.

 

[goatwack]

Good cod what have they done

 

[mack341]

£7.99 for 1 pair of manx kippers by post

 

[goatwack]

The EU need to learn their plaice

 

[pinnit2014]

The EU need to learn their plaice

Decent effort but you cod do better.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Bojo mentioned IOM kippers earlier in the final leadership hustings for anyone remotely interested, the EU is apparently making life more difficult for a kipper sellre there, another example of their needless, bossy boots meddling...

The interesting thing about this is we're not a member of the EU, and yet to sell into the EU single market we have to apply their rules and standards. Hence the Manx kipper seller who now has to ice pack his kippers before posting them to the EU.

Exactly the same thing will happen to the UK after leaving (with or without a deal), the UK will still have to obey all the EU's rules to continue to trade with it, but it will have voluntarily relinquished any influence it had over those rules. Seems a bit daft to me, but that's Brexit for you.

 

[mack341]

The interesting thing about this is we're not a member of the EU, and yet to sell into the EU single market we have to apply their rules and standards. Hence the Manx kipper seller who now has to ice pack his kippers before posting them to the EU.

Exactly the same thing will happen to the UK after leaving (with or without a deal), the UK will still have to obey all the EU's rules to continue to trade with it, but it will have voluntarily relinquished any influence it had over those rules. Seems a bit daft to me, but that's Brexit for you.

Has there ever been any law or rule the EU has introduced that annoyed you or you considered wrong?

Plenty stuff our parliament and govts get up to annoys me over the years, but it seems to remainers the EU has a 100% unblemished record, I never see or read remainers concede to any criticisms made of the EU. [ I don't just mean in this thread, but more in the tv studio discussions, twitter, newspapers like the guardian, parliament etc..]

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I've been somewhat critical of the EU over the years, particularly over what they did to Greece.

In this very thread I've called the EU technocratic, bureaucratic, slow moving and unwieldy.

However, I still believe that our membership of the EU is a net positive for the UK and thus think we should remain, and attempt to change and influence the organisation from within. Especially since, as noted above with the kipper situation, we're going to have to carry on following nearly all of the EU's rules anyway, as they are by far and away our biggest (and closest) trading partner.

The EU and USA are trade and regulatory superpowers and are battling for global regulatory ascendancy - doing a comprehensive deal with either will require adopting their standards. Doing a deal with both will be very difficult. In the EU we have (had.....) a voice in a partnership of equals. With the US we will be on all fours taking it long, hard and without lubricant.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Hmmm the US economy is 740% bigger than ours, I wonder who will come off best in a trade negotiation?

We're giving up a seat at the EU's top table, and we're going to get shafted by the USA. The EU will defend even its smallest members to the fullest (witness their stance on Ireland), the USA will rip us to shreds.

And that's before you even get started on the fact that we'll be dealing with an unstable massive racist in the form of Trump.

 

[goatwack]

*You forgot to add misogynist & homophopic. Never forget the holy trinity when talking about Trump

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The UK beginning trade negotiations with the USA in the not too distant future.....

SPOILER ALERT - We're not the spider.

 

[goatwack]

That house looks very Psycho

 

[mack341]

I've been somewhat critical of the EU over the years, particularly over what they did to Greece.

In this very thread I've called the EU technocratic, bureaucratic, slow moving and unwieldy.

However, I still believe that our membership of the EU is a net positive for the UK and thus think we should remain, and attempt to change and influence the organisation from within. Especially since, as noted above with the kipper situation, we're going to have to carry on following nearly all of the EU's rules anyway, as they are by far and away our biggest (and closest) trading partner.

The EU and USA are trade and regulatory superpowers and are battling for global regulatory ascendancy - doing a comprehensive deal with either will require adopting their standards. Doing a deal with both will be very difficult. In the EU we have (had.....) a voice in a partnership of equals. With the US we will be on all fours taking it long, hard and without lubricant.

That is a fair reply, but the problem has been either the uk govt have been useless at influencing the EU or not bothered to in the first place; to my thinking the 'eu set up' is the perfect way for the uk civil service [read that as the elites and establishment] of circumventing the uk populace and parliament democracy and bringing in laws and changes via the EU. The tepid debates in the EU parliament and rubberstamp votes are not comparable to the more vigorous HOC debates and voters influence that can happen here in the uk [though that is in principle, the practice is sometimes admittedly lacking]

 

[steveh35]

Hmmm the US economy is 740% bigger than ours, I wonder who will come off best in a trade negotiation?

We're giving up a seat at the EU's top table, and we're going to get shafted by the USA. The EU will defend even its smallest members to the fullest (witness their stance on Ireland), the USA will rip us to shreds.

And that's before you even get started on the fact that we'll be dealing with an unstable massive racist in the form of Trump.

View attachment 111434

The doom monger of fear and dread is back. Chopley stop being so miserable and defeatist and be have some faith, you will still be spouting the same rubbish well after a successful no deal.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The USA have some of the most ferocious, effective and battle-hardened trade negotiators in the world. We've basically got nothing since the EU have done it all for us for decades.

We'll get eaten alive, having 'faith' will make no difference whatsoever as the jaws close around our head.

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The UK’s ongoing lack of preparedness for Brexit is not news. The revelation that we are only now training new negotiators merely highlights the slapdash incompetence the government has been showcasing since the

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vote. But the demand for better trade education was revealing, because it illuminates one of the key problems with Brexit: it depends not on dreams but facts.

 

[goatwack]

But but but what about our 'special relationship'

 

[steveh35]

Funny how we managed for hundreds of years without chopley united running us

 

[Mr_Slot5]

The only end game I'm seeing to this is a GE. I say end game because it'll probably lead to a Corbyn government.

If I had any wealth or assets I'd be 100x more fearful of a Corbyn led government than any no deal Brexit scenario.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

So we have a fantastic resolution to the kipper story, and find out that it was a lie.

The new rules about kipper transportation are entirely a UK construct and have nothing to do with the EU.

And this moron is going to be the country's next Prime Minister.

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The kipper story contains the essence of Johnson. Somebody tells him something and he asks himself not whether it’s true but how it will play to the crowd. Deeply irresponsible in a journalist, downright catastrophic in a Prime Minister. What a mess we’ve made.

 

[goatwack]

Thank God. I thought it was a red herring

 

[Harry_BKK]

The UK beginning trade negotiations with the USA in the not too distant future.....

SPOILER ALERT - We're not the spider.

View attachment 111435

You can read what the US is asking in their first draft. Keep in mind, that any good negotiator will have kept quite a few things to add on later for extra pressure or to get more concessions.

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It becomes clear pretty quickly that Mr T is not your friend.

 

[pinnit2014]

You can read what the US is asking in their first draft. Keep in mind, that any good negotiator will have kept quite a few things to add on later for extra pressure or to get more concessions.

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It becomes clear pretty quickly that Mr T is not your friend.

North Korea's this way Harry>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

[mack341]

You can read what the US is asking in their first draft. Keep in mind, that any good negotiator will have kept quite a few things to add on later for extra pressure or to get more concessions.

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It becomes clear pretty quickly that Mr T is not your friend.

Harry are you saying Trump is on top of all this detail?

I believe prior to trump becoming president, the EU and USA were negotiating a deal called the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership, but trump halted it.

According to wikipedia:

"The Guardian described TTIP as "the most controversial trade deal the EU has ever negotiated". TTIP negotiations are criticized and opposed by some unions, charities, NGOs and environmentalists, particularly in Europe. The Independent summarizes the negative impact of TTIP as "reducing the regulatory barriers to trade for big business, things like food safety law, environmental legislation, banking regulations and the sovereign powers of individual nations", or more critically as an "assault on European and US societies by transnational corporations". German economist Max Otte stated that the proposed (ISDS) court of arbitration and protection of foreign investment would mean a "complete dis-empowerment of politics" and that, regarding labour economics, free trade agreements typically enforce lower standards and that TTIP would put European workers into direct competition with Americans (and in effect because of the North American Free Trade Agreement with Mexicans), which would impact European social models"

There's lots and lots of criticism of it; I haven't read all of that trade negotiations document you linked, but is it not possible that the ttip policies have resurfaced in this document, so its the US trade dept behind it, and maybe even the uk establishment/the city of london are green lighting it, in reference to the above in bold ?

 

[Harry_BKK]

Harry are you saying Trump is on top of all this detail?

I believe prior to trump becoming president, the EU and USA were negotiating a deal called the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership, but trump halted it.

According to wikipedia:

"The Guardian described TTIP as "the most controversial trade deal the EU has ever negotiated". TTIP negotiations are criticized and opposed by some unions, charities, NGOs and environmentalists, particularly in Europe. The Independent summarizes the negative impact of TTIP as "reducing the regulatory barriers to trade for big business, things like food safety law, environmental legislation, banking regulations and the sovereign powers of individual nations", or more critically as an "assault on European and US societies by transnational corporations". German economist Max Otte stated that the proposed (ISDS) court of arbitration and protection of foreign investment would mean a "complete dis-empowerment of politics" and that, regarding labour economics, free trade agreements typically enforce lower standards and that TTIP would put European workers into direct competition with Americans (and in effect because of the North American Free Trade Agreement with Mexicans), which would impact European social models"

There's lots and lots of criticism of it; I haven't read all of that trade negotiations document you linked, but is it not possible that the ttip policies have resurfaced in this document, so its the US trade dept behind it, and maybe even the uk establishment/the city of london are green lighting it, in reference to the above in bold ?

TTIP died before Mr T became president, he halted the TPP which is now CPTPP (excluding the US).

Among other stuff, the TTIP would have never passed exactly for the things the US is asking now of the UK in their draft.

Full openness for agricultural products, little or no liability for US companies, full access to the financial market etc. A lot of the draft is diplomatic speak that hides to us normal mortals what is actually requested. I can tell you from my limited understanding that the draft is in no way friendly.

I am sure Mr T is not involved in the details but it is his administration and his negotiators, so ultimately his doing.

 

[mack341]

TTIP died before Mr T became president, he halted the TPP which is now CPTPP (excluding the US).

Among other stuff, the TTIP would have never passed exactly for the things the US is asking now of the UK in their draft.

Full openness for agricultural products, little or no liability for US companies, full access to the financial market etc. A lot of the draft is diplomatic speak that hides to us normal mortals what is actually requested. I can tell you from my limited understanding that the draft is in no way friendly.

I am sure Mr T is not involved in the details but it is his administration and his negotiators, so ultimately his doing.

Yeah I stand corrected Harry, trump didn't halt TTIP, I'm doing too much research on the fly, it does sound like though it has been regurgitated for the uk, and now I guess we might have to swallow it

I think the ultimate goal of all these trade agreements is free trade all over the world, no tariffs, no limits on capital movement, no protected state owned sectors like the nhs...genetically modified food, anything that yields more profit etc...big business does not like pesky people and their elected representatives getting in its way, and the world economy is going to be even more of a carve-up for the wealthiest 1%.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Yeah I stand corrected Harry, trump didn't halt TTIP, I'm doing too much research on the fly, it does sound like though it has been regurgitated for the uk, and now I guess we might have to swallow it

I think the ultimate goal of all these trade agreements is free trade all over the world, no tariffs, no limits on capital movement, no protected state owned sectors like the nhs...genetically modified food, anything that yields more profit etc...big business does not like pesky people and their elected representatives getting in its way, and the world economy is going to be even more of a carve-up for the wealthiest 1%.

no worries mack

I think one of the most worrisome clauses in their draft is that they demand to be able to interfere when you negotiate trade agreements with other countries, especially with those the US designates as "non-market" countries e.g. China. That is a direct intrusion into your sovereignty.

And this would have me worried too. From one of their top negotiators: "comprehensive access for agricultural goods and the opportunity to ensure the United Kingdom follows the US approach in areas such as food standards."

 

[mack341]

no worries mack

I think one of the most worrisome clauses in their draft is that they demand to be able to interfere when you negotiate trade agreements with other countries, especially with those the US designates as "non-market" countries e.g. China. That is a direct intrusion into your sovereignty.

And this would have me worried too. From one of their top negotiators: "comprehensive access for agricultural goods and the opportunity to ensure the United Kingdom follows the US approach in areas such as food standards."

Yeah it is quite worrying, and I'm not sure I trust the uk government to put the uk people first either, they are under a lot of corporate influence. The US is throwing it's weight around with the 'sanctions' tactic, which is like siege warfare against countries, but I guess preferable to actual warfare. We get tied into it now, so we've lost that foreign policy sovereignty which we vaguely had. It's another attack on nation state democracy, the EU is also aiming to have a more unified foreign policy across its member states, so eventually they will all have to agree the same approach towards an issue.

 

[steveh35]

The remainers have reached a new low today in their ridiculous no no deal crusade they are now planning to get The Queen to go to a European Summit and ask for an extension to article 50.

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These MP's become more pathetic and dangerous each day let's use a 93 year old woman to fight our battles.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

1) Many of those 'pathetic and dangerous' MPs who you label as Remainers voted Leave in the House of Commons three times, for May's Deal.

2) Every instrument they are looking at using is part of long established and well understood BRITISH political processes, all the stuff that's supposedly being undermined by Brussels, remember?

3) They know how utterly disastrous a No Deal Brexit would be, they are putting their constituents and country above themselves, there's nothing in this for them, and it will probably cost them their jobs at the next general election.

 

[steveh35]

1) Many of those 'pathetic and dangerous' MPs who you label as Remainers voted Leave in the House of Commons three times, for May's Deal.

2) Every instrument they are looking at using is part of long established and well understood BRITISH political processes, all the stuff that's supposedly being undermined by Brussels, remember?

3) They know how utterly disastrous a No Deal Brexit would be, they are putting their constituents and country above themselves, there's nothing in this for them, and it will probably cost them their jobs at the next general election.

I hope so

 

[mack341]

I'm going to be entirely honest here, I'm starting to question myself now re all this no deal stuff, what's that saying 'chucking the baby out with the bath water' But the problem remains the EU is too big for it's boots and intends to get bigger, not smaller, and exert more power and control over it's member states.

I still detest these craven mp's like grieve, who I don't think has ever put in as much of a shift regarding other policies to help ordinary britains as he is with his blocking brexit antics. And I look at all the conservative mp's who rebelled yesterday, they don't seem to be the altruistic types, more like cameron's minions, certainly the neo liberal wing of conservatism is not my politics.

Add on top of that labour sell outs like t.blair being the biggest advocates of the EU, and I think despite all the possible problems, leaving the EU is still right..hopefully we can come to a sensible deal based on mutual free trade.

 

[09237653]

"It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled."

If you still think brexit is a good idea now after everything that has happened and that will happen you're deluded.

 

[Mr_Slot5]

"It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled."

If you still think brexit is a good idea now after everything that has happened and that will happen you're deluded.

Everything that's happened? What exactly has happened? All I've seen is a remainer PM come in, speak some bull about being a 'bloody tough woman', concoct a withdrawal agreement which somehow was worse than us staying in the EU and have parliament deny us the very thing that was our best bargaining chip I.e threat of no deal.

As far as I'm concerned, I could have told you that this approach would fail as far back as 2016. In fact I did in other forums.

Instead of a firm 'we're quite happy to walk away', we've had 3 years of fannying about which has led to uncertainty and no no deal planning put in place. A complete shambles. It has nothing to do with Brexit being a bad idea and everything to do with bad leadership and representation.

 

[steveh35]

"It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled."

If you still think brexit is a good idea now after everything that has happened and that will happen you're deluded.

Says the person who cant see that the eu is a dictating organisation who will not let people leave its club without threats and intimidation and on their terms who now has a president who wants a united States of europe