Brexit - whats the difference.....

[ChopleyIOM]

Yeah it’s abhorrent, but brushed under the carpet by our biased news pal.

wonder why my mate @ChopleyIOM hasnt mentioned this? Or will he spin it as not a fault of the EU even tho it’s 110% a fault of the fourth reich?..

It's a food safety standard issue, and is being dealt with as a food safety standard issue, it's been widely reported in the UK press (yes even in the Communist pinko EU-loving Guardian).

I fail to see what it has to do with Brexit, and therefore why it'd be worth flagging up in this thread. (This chicken was imported before Brexit, and is still being imported after Brexit, albeit with more forms to fill in.)

It's also worth remembering that cooking chicken properly will kill salmonella, so anyone getting ill from eating these products hasn't cooked it properly.

And the end of the day it's the worst kind of ultra low-cost industrialised food production, and unfortunately that comes with the risk of low quality foods getting into the human food chain.

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An FSA spokesperson said: “Investigations have been and continue to be undertaken back to farm level in Poland. While some batches of these poultry products share some common food operators in the food chain, more than one supplier has been identified and multiple farm level producers have also been identified. Investigations are ongoing in Poland to identify which farm-level sources have led to the outbreaks.”

 

[Playford7]

It's a food safety standard issue, and is being dealt with as a food safety standard issue, it's been widely reported in the UK press (yes even in the Communist pinko EU-loving Guardian).

I fail to see what it has to do with Brexit, and therefore why it'd be worth flagging up in this thread. (This chicken was imported before Brexit, and is still being imported after Brexit, albeit with more forms to fill in.)

It's also worth remembering that cooking chicken properly will kill salmonella, so anyone getting ill from eating these products hasn't cooked it properly.

And the end of the day it's the worst kind of ultra low-cost industrialised food production, and unfortunately that comes with the risk of low quality foods getting into the human food chain.

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An FSA spokesperson said: “Investigations have been and continue to be undertaken back to farm level in Poland. While some batches of these poultry products share some common food operators in the food chain, more than one supplier has been identified and multiple farm level producers have also been identified. Investigations are ongoing in Poland to identify which farm-level sources have led to the outbreaks.”

Must defend the EU at all cost, must defend the EU at all cost...

keep repeating pal..

What’s your take on that slapper Angela Raynor and her taking the piss out of the electorate btw?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

What’s your take on that slapper Angela Raynor and her taking the piss out of the electorate btw?

£249 on a set of headphones

vs

£21 billion pounds the Tories handed out in contracts to their mates for a failed track and trace system.

Hmmm, I wonder which I'm bothered about.

Also, why do you have such a terrible habit of using demeaning language to describe women? It's not exactly a one-off.

(Final note, Matt Hancock claimed a set of headphones on expenses in January 2020.)

 

[dunover]

£249 on a set of headphones

vs

£21 billion pounds the Tories handed out in contracts to their mates for a failed track and trace system.

Hmmm, I wonder which I'm bothered about.

Also, why do you have such a terrible habit of using demeaning language to describe women? It's not exactly a one-off.

(Final note, Matt Hancock claimed a set of headphones on expenses in January 2020.)

Not unreasonable - my B&O headphones cost about the same.

 

[mack341]

Maybe my post about sweden the other day was a bit 'visionary'




The likes of Stockholm were also likely frustrated with Mr Macron, and his German counterpart Angela Merkel, who were described as playing an "active role" in driving through the EU-China deal.

Sweden has been scathing of China in the past, denouncing its track record on human rights.

With Brexit also now concluded and the UK appearing to move clear of the EU in its race to vaccinate citizens, cracks within Brussels are beginning to emerge.

 

[paul7388]

So what happened with the fish in the end?

 

[geordiecolin]

So what happened with the fish in the end?

The fish are refusing to speak English,so I heard

 

[News Hound]

Personally I am waiting for the promised lack of medical supplies such as insulin that the UK would suffer from as a result of Brexit and the end of the transitional period ( Plus the small fact Godzilla and his crew were going to arrive and start ripping **** up.)

Yet, no such issue has arisen and yet free from the the shackles of the European Medicines Agency, the UK is leading all European countries in the drive to vaccinate their population against Covid-19 - Over 20 million injections administered compared to Germany's 6 million.

For all his perceived F Up's, this is an area Boris Johnson, his government and the NHS can be rightly applauded and praised on. Regardless of your political persuasion.

Whilst it is also very very clear that the overbearing bureaucratic animal that the EU is, has seriously performed a disservice to their member states and their populations in this regard. So this is one big plus point as to why I am happy being a UK citizen and the fact that we are no longer a part of the EU.

Other than freedom of movement, which no one can do arguably at the moment due to the pandemic, I am trying to see a downside to Brexit at the moment, seriously. I mean even the pound is as strong as it has been for years!

If this pandemic is ever over and life returns to what we all know and love pre Feb 2020, EU citizens and UK citizens can visit each others territories, just limited to 3 months in every 6 month period.

The only big issue with freedom of movement is the effect it has on pensioner aged Brits who want to retire to Spain. But visas and the such like are easily attainable.

 

[cncas2123]

Personally I am waiting for the promised lack of medical supplies such as insulin that the UK would suffer from as a result of Brexit and the end of the transitional period ( Plus the small fact Godzilla and his crew were going to arrive and start ripping **** up.)

Some parts of the UK , namely Northern Ireland, are experiencing difficulties with obtaining some medicines as a few manufacturers have decided that it’s too expensive to get their product delivered here.
It’s definitely looking like the NI protocol isn’t fit for purpose as when the grace period for foodstuffs ends , I think it’s at the end of April, some supermarkets have said it will be much more difficult to get some foods onto their shelves.

 

[News Hound]

I agree with you about the NI Protocol not being fit for purpose. It is as if NI hasn't even been considered in all of this. :-(

 

[ChopleyIOM]

There's a handy list being maintained here, and in fairness they are listing the good things to have come out of Brexit, although they are wildly outnumbered by the bad things.

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As for the NI Protocol, the DUP win this decade's Turkeys Voting For Christmas award.

Vaccination is a big win for the UK though, there's no question about that, and it has revealed the EU to something of a lumbering technocractic behemoth. (Which in fairness to myself, is something I've always readily acknowledged it is.)

No one ever said Brexit would be the end of the world, it'll be chunks of damage across many different areas, for many months and years to come.

 

[mack341]

I like the idea of not sending net 10 billion sterling every year to a lumbering technocratic behemoth, feels like a significant win to me as a humble uk citizen.

Think of the good we can do the country with an extra £100 billion if we spent it carefully.

 

[Playford7]

I like the idea of not sending net 10 billion sterling every year to a lumbering technocratic behemoth, feels like a significant win to me as a humble uk citizen.

Hell yes

 

[mack341]

Good news

 

[News Hound]

Last time I looked Northern Ireland was part of the UK - do the EU want NI to starve?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Good news

How is that good news?

The NI Protocol that the Conservatives campaigned on and legislated into law is so bad that they now have to break international law to get out of it.

The fact is the Tories put a border down the Irish Sea, the Brexit deal they told everyone was a fantastic deal for the UK and Northern Ireland is, of course, an utter pile of shit, hence them now trying to wriggle out of it a mere three months later.

Oven-ready indeed!

This could end up as low-level economic cold war between the UK and the EU, which I'm sure some of the usual hard-of-thinking flag-waving jingoists will cheer on, but oh my word aren't we a long, long way away from what was promised.

Remember we're still actually trying to negotiate stuff with the EU, such as equivalence in the EU for UK financial services, at the same time as essentially spitting in their faces.

 

[News Hound]

The same NI Protocol that the EU only a matter of weeks ago threatened to rip up because they couldn't get their house in order over the vaccine debacle. A debacle of their very own making.

 

[News Hound]

but oh my word aren't we a long, long way away from what was promised.

Looks like it yep.

 

[mack341]

Checks and paperwork on imports such as supermarket products were due to come in at the end of this month, and the UK-EU Joint Committee was supposed to be thrashing out a fix. But...

UK Govt sources insist it had to act today. Time has run out, as supermarkets need a month’s lead time, so shelves risked going empty again otherwise.

--------

This is what happens when you have to negotiate with somebody outside of your country who essentially wants to control/dictate what you can and can't do within your own country.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The same NI Protocol that the EU only a matter of weeks ago threatened to rip up because they couldn't get their house in order over the vaccine debacle. A debacle of their very own making.

I've already called that out in this very thread as a terrible blunder by the EU, but remember they reversed that within three hours and acknowledged it was a mistake.

What the UK government has announced today is, essentially, a cast-iron commitment to break the NI Protocol (and by extension international law) for an extended period of time.

The EU don't want NI to 'starve', they want the UK to uphold its side of the deal it actually negotiated of its own free will and promised to implement.

 

[mack341]

How is that good news?

The NI Protocol that the Conservatives campaigned on and legislated into law is so bad that they now have to break international law to get out of it.

The fact is the Tories put a border down the Irish Sea, the Brexit deal they told everyone was a fantastic deal for the UK and Northern Ireland is, of course, an utter pile of shit, hence them now trying to wriggle out of it a mere three months later.

Oven-ready indeed!

This could end up as low-level economic cold war between the UK and the EU, which I'm sure some of the usual hard-of-thinking flag-waving jingoists will cheer on, but oh my word aren't we a long, long way away from what was promised.

Remember we're still actually trying to negotiate stuff with the EU, such as equivalence in the EU for UK financial services, at the same time as essentially spitting in their faces.

It's good news as the citizens of NI are guaranteed to be able to eat and not suffer from food shortages. Also good news that the EU now know the uk is not frightened of it or it's threats.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Checks and paperwork on imports such as supermarket products were due to come in at the end of this month, and the UK-EU Joint Committee was supposed to be thrashing out a fix. But...

UK Govt sources insist it had to act today. Time has run out, as supermarkets need a month’s lead time, so shelves risked going empty again otherwise.

--------

This is what happens when you have to negotiate with somebody outside of your country who essentially wants to control/dictate what you can and can't do within your own country.

That'd be the NI Protocol that the UK government:

1) Negotiated of its own free will
2) Campaigned for as part of a general election and told everyone it was a great deal, oven-ready, in fact
3) Then enacted into law once in government

Feel free to fact check me on any of the above three points if I've got one wrong.

This was how Johnson reacted when the deal was signed, the same deal he's now trying to break three months later. Do you think he didn't read it, didn't understand it, or was just lying again as usual?

 

[Kroffe]

I saw that Mack.
No take backs.
I now know you are scared.

 

[News Hound]

I've already called that out in this very thread as a terrible blunder by the EU, but remember they reversed that within three hours and acknowledged it was a mistake.

What the UK government has announced today is, essentially, a cast-iron commitment to break the NI Protocol (and by extension international law) for an extended period of time.

The EU don't want NI to 'starve', they want the UK to uphold its side of the deal it actually negotiated of its own free will and promised to implement.

Unfortunately the EU showed their true colours in their actions, disregarding at the same time the Good Friday Agreement and threatening to police all factories producing vaccines in member states.

Just one perfect example why over 52% of those polled voted for Brexit back in 2016. The EU was never ever meant to be a political union. But alas, that is what it is now.

The UK government are acting in the interests of their citizens. If the EU are upset, tough.

 

[mack341]

That'd be the NI Protocol that the UK government:

1) Negotiated of its own free will
2) Campaigned for as part of a general election and told everyone it was a great deal, oven-ready, in fact
3) Then enacted into law once in government

Feel free to fact check me on any of the above three points if I've got one wrong.

This was how Johnson reacted when the deal was signed, the same deal he's now trying to break three months later. Do you think he didn't read it, didn't understand it, or was just lying again as usual?

View attachment 151591

Yes but it is underpinned or based on these eu/uk working committees being able to agree stuff, do you really think that is an easy task, negotiating with 27 countries effectively, must be subject to lengthy problems and sticking points.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Yes but it is underpinned or based on these eu/uk working committees being able to agree stuff, do you really think that is an easy task, negotiating with 27 countries effectively, must be subject to lengthy problems and sticking points.

But the NI Protocol isn't new, it's an existing agreement that the UK is required to honour, being that it both negotiated it all by itself and then enshrined it into law.

The simple fact is that Johnson threw NI under the bus good and proper, and the moves to break international law are a desperate attempt by him and his government to avoid the consequences of their own actions.

 

[mack341]

But the NI Protocol isn't new, it's an existing agreement that the UK is required to honour, being that it both negotiated it all by itself and then enshrined it into law.

The simple fact is that Johnson threw NI under the bus good and proper, and the actions now being taken are a desperate attempt for him and his government to avoid the consequences of their own actions.

It'll all get sorted out in the wash, but I argued against the protocol in here iirc. And this was not a one way street, remember barnier's on film saying:

 

[News Hound]

Now look what the EU have gone and done

The EU has used an export control mechanism for the first time to prevent doses being shipped before they are given to the bloc.

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[Kroffe]

Now look what the EU have gone and done

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Sounds like EU acting in the interest of its member states.

Or as someone else put it "The EU are acting in the interests of their citizens. If the Australia are upset, tough."

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Taking back control by just waving shit across our borders.

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With UK exporters to the EU

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, regulations and costs of operating under the post-Brexit regime, business organisations and senior figures in Whitehall now fear that EU exporters to the UK – particularly those involved with food – could be even less prepared than their UK counterparts were at the start of this year.

A big worry is that delays resulting from checks could hit food supplies including the “just in time” delivery network.

One senior industry figure said: “The worry is that if we go ahead with more checks and move to checks on imports, then exporters will not be prepared and on this side we are not ready for that either. There is not the infrastructure in place yet or the number of customs officials necessary to carry all this out. We have already seen exports badly affected. The next nightmare could be imports.”

 

[dunover]

But to counteract @ChopleyIOM usual prophecy of doom, where it really matters, where it's life and death, even the anti-BBC has called the EU's vaccine strategy and execution lamentable, with Brussels insiders calling attacks on the UK 'childish'. Even the krauts had this front page on Bild newspaper. 'Dear Britain - We Envy You!

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The UK has done well on its vaccination programme, no doubt about it.

However, it's worth remembering that there was absolutely nothing the UK government did that it couldn't have done as a full EU member, and indeed we were still in transition at the time anyway.

As an EU member, and with or without Brexit, the UK government could have taken exactly the same actions.

And hey, I've called out the EU as overly bureaucratic and technocratic myself, multiple times in this very thread

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Away from imaginary stories of Brexit Benefits - (remember, fact fans, Brexit made precisely ZERO difference to the UK doing what it did on vaccines) - here's a withering assessment of the real damage it's doing.

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-------------

Johnson and his team cannot dissemble away alarming figures showing UK

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in January, caused in large part by Brexit bureaucracy, incompetence and delays. That’s a £5.6bn loss when the economy can least afford it. Exports of food and live animals were particularly badly hit, down by 63.6%.

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, who Johnson personally pledged to protect, saw their exports collapse by 83% year on year.

Adding insult to injury, reciprocal import checks and controls on the UK side will remain absent until next year, Downing Street now confirms. In truth, the government could no longer conceal its abject

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and computer systems. In practice, this means that EU exporters to the UK get a free ride while UK business continues to be handicapped by mountains of paperwork – as agreed by Johnson.

-------------

It’s not due to stockpiling, or lack of Covid jabs, or bad weather, or any other dreamt-up excuse. It’s the result of a fatally flawed, misconceived Brexit deal that is not, and never was, fit for purpose. The EU defends its own interests – no surprise there. What is shocking is how Johnson has failed to defend Britain’s. We cannot go on blaming the organisation we left for the problems we face as a result of opting to leave on the most damaging terms possible. And it will get worse later in the year, when additional EU export regulations are due to come in.

The parallel debacle over Northern Ireland’s trading arrangements is, if anything, even more dismaying – and dangerous. Even after he broke his word to unionists by agreeing to a border in the Irish Sea, Johnson’s deal still cannot ensure frictionless, two-way trade while safeguarding the Good Friday peace agreement. It was always a botched job. Now, predictably, it is falling apart.

-------------

Forget, for a minute, the dreadfully mangled, mismanaged morass that is Brexit. This is a question of trust as much as competence. It goes to the heart of the UK’s future international standing. It adversely affects hopes that “Global Britain” can successfully make its way as an independent power. The shaming truth is that just as the British people cannot trust Johnson to do the right thing, no more can the rest of the world.

Johnson’s biggest lie is now exposed for all to see. Brexit is not “done”. It’s not working. It’s not even Brexit.

 

[geordiecolin]

The UK has done well on its vaccination programme, no doubt about it.

However, it's worth remembering that there was absolutely nothing the UK government did that it couldn't have done as a full EU member, and indeed we were still in transition at the time anyway.

As an EU member, and with or without Brexit, the UK government could have taken exactly the same actions.

And hey, I've called out the EU as overly bureaucratic and technocratic myself, multiple times in this very thread

The EU took a centralised approach to the development,securing supplies and the distribution of vaccines so your claim that the UK being a member state or not had no significance is totally and utterly wrong. The fact is that the EU fucked up and the UK no longer being a member state was hugely significant in our success in obtaining,distributing and administering vaccines

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The EU took a centralised approach to the development,securing supplies and the distribution of vaccines so your claim that the UK being a member state or not had no significance is totally and utterly wrong. The fact is that the EU fucked up and the UK no longer being a member state was hugely significant in our success in obtaining,distributing and administering vaccines

Sigh.

A centralised approach that the UK would not have been obliged to be a part of whether or not it was a full EU member, still in transition (which we were at the time), or completely out of the EU.

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[ChopleyIOM]

As for the early approval of the vaccines by the UK, we could have done that as a full EU member too.

These are the facts of the case, and writing utterly bogus assertions doesn't make them correct.

Yes, the EU has done poorly on vaccines, the UK has done well, but the sequence of events could have played out in exactly the same fashion if the UK were still a full EU member, Brexit made no difference in that regard so it can't be portrayed as a 'Brexit win'.

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[geordiecolin]

Read it in their own words

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[ChopleyIOM]

Yes I know that, the point is that no EU member is obliged to join the scheme, they're fully entitled to do whatever they want.

I agree with you that the EU have been shit on vaccines in many regards, but the UK wouldn't have had to do any of it even if it were still a full EU member. You're arguing a case that I'm not even trying to defend.

 

[mack341]

From bits I read yesterday the number of EU citizens deciding to stay in the uk post brexit is quite high, obviously that includes a whole gamut of people with differing reasons but hardly a vote of no confidence in the future here.



So even lefty guardian writer and environmentalist George monbiot has finally come to the reality that the EU is a bad thing:

The EU’s Common Agricultural Policy, by far the biggest item in its budget, is one of the most destructive forces on Earth. The perverse incentives it creates have destroyed hundreds of thousands of hectares of prime habitat.

The same goes for its biofuel incentives, which have wrecked forests from Indonesia to Estonia. It ignored all warnings. Trying to change these policies involves battling through almost impenetrable layers of bureaucracy and resistance.

The effects of this fatal flaw are not confined to environmental issues. There were similar issues with the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership, for example. Behind a veil of secrecy and obfuscation, the EC tried to impose it against massive popular resistance.

several people have responded to this thread by saying "so the answer is to reform the EU". But the examples I've given suggest to me that it's unreformable. The corporate lobbyists are dug in too deep. Look at the new CAP round: nothing learnt, nothing improved.

----------

It is better to have the variety of sovereign & democratic nation states than one overlord type authority, beholden to lobbyists, imposing itself and its rules on everyone.

 

[geordiecolin]

Yes I know that, the point is that no EU member is obliged to join the scheme, they're fully entitled to do whatever they want.

I agree with you that the EU have been shit on vaccines in many regards, but the UK wouldn't have had to do any of it even if it were still a full EU member. You're arguing a case that I'm not even trying to defend.

There is a very strong and compelling reason why all member states agreed to the EU plan. You do not pay into the housekeeping then refuse the benefits of doing so. To think that the UK would not of signed up to the EU plan if we where still a fully paid up member state for the long term is quite frankly very disingenuous

 

[ChopleyIOM]

There is a very strong and compelling reason why all member states agreed to the EU plan. You do not pay into the housekeeping then refuse the benefits of doing so. To think that the UK would not of signed up to the EU plan if we where still a fully paid up member state for the long term is quite frankly very disingenuous

That's an entirely different argument though, the fact remains that the UK could have chosen to involve itself in the EU scheme, or not involve itself in the EU scheme, irrespective of its membership status.

You're essentially inventing a scenario in your own head there, and then using it to justify it your position.

 

[geordiecolin]

That's an entirely different argument though, the fact remains that the UK could have chosen to involve itself in the EU scheme, or not involve itself in the EU scheme, irrespective of its membership status.

You're essentially inventing a scenario in your own head there, and then using it to justify it your position.

It is not an entirely different argument to the one that you where trying to pass of as true though. Is it?

 

[Gaz237]

That's an entirely different argument though, the fact remains that the UK could have chosen to involve itself in the EU scheme, or not involve itself in the EU scheme, irrespective of its membership status.

You're essentially inventing a scenario in your own head there, and then using it to justify it your position.

I think Colin has said exactly what would of happened, nothing invented.

If anything, your the one inventing scenarios to suit your agenda.

Again, the British public voted to leave, get over it.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I think Colin has said exactly what would of happened, nothing invented.

If anything, your the one inventing scenarios to suit your agenda.

Again, the British public voted to leave, get over it.

Except he literally invented it, he's made an assumption/guess about what the UK would have done on its vaccine strategy if it were still an EU member.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

It is not an entirely different argument to the one that you where trying to pass of as true though. Is it?

I don't need to try to 'pass off' facts as true, they're just facts.

The fact is that the UK would have been free to determine whatever vaccine strategy it wanted irrespective of being an EU member or not. You can argue that it would have followed the EU programme if it were still a member, but that is an assumption on your part.

 

[Gaz237]

Except he literally invented it, he's made an assumption/guess about what the UK would have done on its vaccine strategy if it were still an EU member.

How did he invent it?.

It;s exactly what would of happened.

You saying we could of chosen either way regarding the vaccine is a mute point.

We have already CHOSEN to leave the EU.

End of.

 

[geordiecolin]

I don't need to try to 'pass off' facts as true, they're just facts.

The fact is that the UK would have been free to determine whatever vaccine strategy it wanted irrespective of being an EU member or not. You can argue that it would have followed the EU programme if it were still a member, but that is an assumption on your part.

I will just leave the reader to read what you stated at the top of this page and make their own minds up

 

[pinnit2014]

I think it's a pretty reasonable assumption to be honest - I'd find it hard to believe that the UK, during a global pandemic, would suddenly decide to go stag with contract negotiations. So, it's more than just a guess.

But feel free to put on your horse blinkers yet again Chopley

 

[Borgie]

I think it's a pretty reasonable assumption to be honest - I'd find it hard to believe that the UK, during a global pandemic, would suddenly decide to go stag with contract negotiations. So, it's more than just a guess.

But feel free to put on your horse blinkers yet again Chopley

Chopleys a horse ? Kroffe is a bear... i am probably a pig as i ate far too much sunday roast.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

This you Kate?

Yet another entirely predictable (and predicted!) consequence of Brexit, and in particular Johnson's truly rotten deal - let's hope things don't escalate from here.

Brexit always presented an existential threat to the peace process, and its costs may yet be measured in human lives.