Brexit - whats the difference.....

[ChopleyIOM]

The Torygraph has a novel explanation for why Brexit has failed, and it turns out it's your fault - yes you! For being scared of freedom, apparently.

It'll be interesting to see what the next UK government does on Brexit, because there's a MASSIVE 5% uplift to UK GDP sat right there on the table (basically getting back the billions upon billions that Brexit has cost us). We could get most of it back by rejoining the Single Market and Customs Union (so technically not back in the EU).

Assuming Labour do win, they'll have five years to show some results, and that sort of boost to the economy would stand them in very good stead.

 

[mack341]

Chop, Thames water is about to go bankrupt, the Royal mail is heading that way. Labour are about to win a huge majority [if polls are to be believed] why would you want to straitjacket yourself and give away a govt's freedom to act in whatever way it chooses is best, when the state might have to take over some big utilities/services, or could have an option to.



"It has to be pointed out, however, that a Member State nationalising a private undertaking has to act like a private market economy operator as regards both the purchase price and the management of the nationalised undertaking. Otherwise, State aid rules (Articles 107 and 108 TFEU) would apply."

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Independent 2019 re nationalisation of rail in the single market

"So EU rules do not prevent you having a public railway company, or from subsidising it to whatever absurd degree you fancy. But it's important to be clear what restrictions the EU does place on member states' railways: or to be precise, what restrictions it will place on them."

This is because the situation in the EU is changing: in 2016 the bloc approved a package of legislation called the Fourth Rail Package, which will come into force from 2023. This includes a series of new rules whose intention is to bring the private sector and market competition into the railways. Looking at the situation in member states now might not be a very good guide to what they will look like in a few years' time.

Under the Fourth Rail Package, subsidised routes will have to be put out to open tender, and private companies be allowed to bid for them in a commercial process. The existing state incumbents will also be able to bid – and in many cases they will win; in others, they will not.

A UK government committed to public ownership for the whole railway could perhaps try and ignore the regulations, facing down Brussels – though as our experience with Brexit shows, we're not very good at that. Going rogue would also leave the government open to being taken to the European Court of Justice by private companies angry that they are missing out on lucrative contracts; it could also face infringement action from the Commission. Alternatively, the UK could work to try and change the EU’s rules – though it would be swimming against a very powerful tide."

 

[TheAddict]

Sherelle (whoever the fuck knows, or cares) just went blunt. Holy shit guys.

 

[pinnit2014]

Hopefully we don't see Rees Mogg and his nanny at the next election

Though i did hear he called Maggie Thatcher 'Mummy'

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Chop, Thames water is about to go bankrupt, the Royal mail is heading that way. Labour are about to win a huge majority [if polls are to be believed] why would you want to straitjacket yourself and give away a govt's freedom to act in whatever way it chooses is best, when the state might have to take over some big utilities/services, or could have an option to.



"It has to be pointed out, however, that a Member State nationalising a private undertaking has to act like a private market economy operator as regards both the purchase price and the management of the nationalised undertaking. Otherwise, State aid rules (Articles 107 and 108 TFEU) would apply."

--------------

Independent 2019 re nationalisation of rail in the single market

"So EU rules do not prevent you having a public railway company, or from subsidising it to whatever absurd degree you fancy. But it's important to be clear what restrictions the EU does place on member states' railways: or to be precise, what restrictions it will place on them."

This is because the situation in the EU is changing: in 2016 the bloc approved a package of legislation called the Fourth Rail Package, which will come into force from 2023. This includes a series of new rules whose intention is to bring the private sector and market competition into the railways. Looking at the situation in member states now might not be a very good guide to what they will look like in a few years' time.

Under the Fourth Rail Package, subsidised routes will have to be put out to open tender, and private companies be allowed to bid for them in a commercial process. The existing state incumbents will also be able to bid – and in many cases they will win; in others, they will not.

A UK government committed to public ownership for the whole railway could perhaps try and ignore the regulations, facing down Brussels – though as our experience with Brexit shows, we're not very good at that. Going rogue would also leave the government open to being taken to the European Court of Justice by private companies angry that they are missing out on lucrative contracts; it could also face infringement action from the Commission. Alternatively, the UK could work to try and change the EU’s rules – though it would be swimming against a very powerful tide."

The honest answer is mack I don't really know enough about this area to fully comment, although I'm not even advocating for rejoining the EU (that's a 10-15 year project IMO), the immediate concern is trying to fix some of the awful economic damage of Brexit, which means Customs Union and Single Market, and alignment to EU standards where possible, to help get British businesses back in the game.

My suspicion would be however, that as with all things EU related, fudges and deals and compromises would be available, especially where we're talking about privatised industries failing completely and needing massive bail outs with public money. Large chunks of the UK railways are already back in government hands. In the case of Thames Water, it had all its debt wiped out by Thatcher prior to privatisation (as did all the water companies), and yet has managed to end up essentially bankrupt, whilst pumping millions of gallons of shit into our rivers and seas, and having creamed off billions in shareholder dividends, whilst leaving customers with some of the highest bills in Europe. Oh yes and it's got one of the leakiest networks in Europe too.

The success of private enterprise! Still, at least the shareholders made out like bandits, and fuck everyone else.

 

[dunover]

The **__** Large chunks of the UK railways are already back in government hands. In the case of Thames Water, it had all its debt wiped out by Thatcher prior to privatisation (as did all the water companies), and yet has managed to end up essentially bankrupt, whilst pumping millions of gallons of shit into our rivers and seas, and having creamed off billions in shareholder dividends, whilst leaving customers with some of the highest bills in Europe. Oh yes and it's got one of the leakiest networks in Europe too.

The success of private enterprise! Still, at least the shareholders made out like bandits, and fuck everyone else.

I heard the monster (I had my famous TFTUT incident with back in Dec 2016 after too much codeine) is still banging into pleasure craft on the river Severn.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Stuff like this is happening all the time and often goes little reported or even noticed, although the effect is choice being reduced in shops, and prices creeping up and up, as these costs are absorbed into the supply chain and ultimately passed on to consumers.

It does however give lie to the claim that Brexit is 'done' - the damage rolls on, and on, and on.

It's stuff like this that has mortally wounded the UK economy, Labour will really need to grasp this nettle, assuming they get into power, because until the endless slow puncture of Brexit is fixed, the UK's economy is holed below the waterline.

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[mack341]

I thought we agreed a 'free' trade deal, apparently this charge has been delayed 5 times to allow firms to adjust to brexit, which begs the question have the EU already implemented a similar charge their end?

 

[pinnit2014]

Stuff like this is happening all the time and often goes little reported or even noticed, although the effect is choice being reduced in shops, and prices creeping up and up, as these costs are absorbed into the supply chain and ultimately passed on to consumers.

It does however give lie to the claim that Brexit is 'done' - the damage rolls on, and on, and on.

It's stuff like this that has mortally wounded the UK economy, Labour will really need to grasp this nettle, assuming they get into power, because until the endless slow puncture of Brexit is fixed, the UK's economy is holed below the waterline.

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I know and work with companies who talk of the negative effective Brexit has had in terms of their bottom line and logistics etc. Not from a political POV, just hard numbers. But it seems to have disappeared from all political parties thoughts - i find it amusing that people who have no skin in the game regarding effects, easily dismiss it - personally, it's been weird having a country vote to impose economic sanctions on themselves but hey, it's done, so got to roll what you've been given.

Rishi claiming he'd go one step further today/yesterday and leave the ECHR cos of the (massive waste of money, it's nearly criminal) Rwanda Act/Bill, is amusing though - you'd need to give 6 months notice and the ramification of it would ripple through everything so good posturing there but no cigar.

People claiming the horrors of a Labour Govt i don't think grasp the fact Starmer is almost centre right and lets be honest, i don't think they could do worse than this current mob.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I thought we agreed a 'free' trade deal, apparently this charge has been delayed 5 times to allow firms to adjust to brexit, which begs the question have the EU already implemented a similar charge their end?

I know this won't come as a big surprise mack, but Boris Johnson was and is a massive liar, so when he said we had a 'free trade deal' with the EU what he meant was we'd agreed not to impose any tariffs on each other, apart from that we're basically a third country outside the EU, which is what we were insisting we wanted to be treated as all along - you remember it all I'm sure, buccaneering on the world stage, glory days of empire and all that shite.

The EU had all the checks and charges on their side ready to go from day one once the UK left transition, but because we were (and are) a shambolic mess of a country after fourteen years of Tory misrule, we're only getting round to it now. Brexit is the world's worst gift, and it just keeps on giving pain and damage.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I know and work with companies who talk of the negative effective Brexit has had in terms of their bottom line and logistics etc. Not from a political POV, just hard numbers. But it seems to have disappeared from all political parties thoughts - i find it amusing that people who have no skin in the game regarding effects, easily dismiss it - personally, it's been weird having a country vote to impose economic sanctions on themselves but hey, it's done, so got to roll what you've been given.

Rishi claiming he'd go one step further today/yesterday and leave the ECHR cos of the (massive waste of money, it's nearly criminal) Rwanda Act/Bill, is amusing though - you'd need to give 6 months notice and the ramification of it would ripple through everything so good posturing there but no cigar.

People claiming the horrors of a Labour Govt i don't think grasp the fact Starmer is almost centre right and lets be honest, i don't think they could do worse than this current mob.

Sounds a bit like Project Fear to me pinnit, you're not one of these 'experts' are you? Because Michael Gove wants a word if so.

The ECHR posturing over Rwanda is nonsensical, I'd like to see how like they'll pitch the campaign for that - 'TAKE BACK CONTROL, THIS TIME WE DEFINITELY MEAN IT'.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Those who voted Remain haven't really changed their voting intentions, which essentially points to the fact that Brexit has panned out how they were expecting it to (an unmitigated disaster), which is why they voted against it in the first place.

Among Leave voters however, you can see how Tory support has absolutely cratered, benefiting both Labour and Reform. Here in the year 2024, the truth is plain for all to see, Brexit has failed, continues to fail, and will do so into the future until it starts to get rolled back.

Unfortunately, in the interim, the UK remains mortally wounded and our economy continues to bleed out.

The thing I find most upsetting about all of this, is plenty of people knew exactly what was going to happen and explicitly warned about the dangers of leaving the EU, what was once Project Fear, is now Project Reality - Leave voters can see it too.

 

[TheAddict]

Support for the tories has dropped? You've gotta be at least semi retarded to give support to any of the latest blackmailed clowns pretending to represent the peoples interests, tbf. No offense to most people, and fuck the EU

 

[pinnit2014]

Sounds a bit like Project Fear to me pinnit, you're not one of these 'experts' are you? Because Michael Gove wants a word if so.

The ECHR posturing over Rwanda is nonsensical, I'd like to see how like they'll pitch the campaign for that - 'TAKE BACK CONTROL, THIS TIME WE DEFINITELY MEAN IT'.

It's like the mulit-millionaire Non-Dom folk, just aren't really happy even though they've got all they wanted

I do laugh when folk say Farage/Dice/Mogg are anti establishment: they are the epitome of it/are it

It's the false equivalence model of debate that has developed - you get a expert v a gossip columnist and you give as much credence to the latter - it's mental.