Casino Complaint BOVADA - Locking Jackpots, taking profit for themselves, cheating the players

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
I've just given the casino rep the heads up on this thread - asking him for a comment and explanation.
 

RolfMoister

Dormant Account
Joined
Oct 20, 2014
Location
U,S AND THE A
I've just given the casino rep the heads up on this thread - asking him for a comment and explanation.
If you look at the graphs on this forum (who seems to be talking about the same topic):
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
, between 3rd and 4th of March people started winning again, right after your message.
Those huge graphs went down to the bottom again, at the same time.

So, maybe they are not so eager to answer whatever question you asked, since it's fixed and not relevant anymore.

In any case, 4 out of 12 of the jackpots seems locked still. So they only reverted back to the old settings.
Still 33% of them seems unwinnable.

Anyone who can confirm my theory?
 

jshort

Experienced Member
webmeister
PABaccred
MM
Joined
Feb 1, 2014
Location
Canada
I clicked the link to Casinolistings and read all the commentary there. Ed is a pretty smart guy and I've used his PJ tracking data before. I've been sceptical of Bovada in the past myself (long before this thread).

Although Im bias (I love CL), I truly believe the owner of Casinolistings knows his stuff and if he says "this slot is fishy", then I would avoid avoid avoid!
 
Last edited:

MichaelBluejay

Full Member
webmeister
Joined
Jun 16, 2004
Location
In Austin, Texas, man
I can't believe that Bovada is cheating

Whatever's wrong with the software, it strains credulity to suggest that Bovada is cheating and "keeping the money for themselves". The progressive jackpots are spiraling ever higher, IN PLAIN VIEW OF THE WHOLE WORLD. Does that suggest a good cheating scheme to anyone? A *real* cheating scheme would be to periodically reset the jackpot as though someone had won, but instead pocket the money. That's far, far different from showing that the money is still there, waiting to be won.

So, let's return our attention to figuring out what *is* going on. First, I'd like everyone to consider that it's *possible* that the jackpot odds on some games are just really, really long, and that they differ from the same game on sister sites. In landed casinos, it's been the case that slots that look identical can have dramatically different returns; the casino orders the return they want from the manufacturer. And as we know, casinos (both land and online) don't normally disclose the returns on individual machines, much less the jackpot odds.

That said, it seems *probable* that there's a software error. I'm happy to ask Bovada for answers myself, but I'd like to understand the situation better first, so I have some questions:

(1) Where does Casino Listings get its data? I presume they scrape it with bots.

(2) Is there a way to see the history of the jackpot level further back than two months?

(3) On Casino Listings' "Bad Girl 10¢" page, the sidebar has a section called "Recent Jackpot Wins", that lists five jackpots won in the last five days. What machines/denominations are those for? They can't be for Bad Girl 10¢, because that one hasn't been won for months.

(4) The graph at Casino Listings for "Good Girl 2¢" shows the jackpot *steadily declining* from around May 2 to May 16:
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

I presume that data is in error. If not, what does it mean?

(5) Here's the case as I understand it:
(a) Jackpots which used to be won every few hours, went for days without being won, e.g., Good Girl 2¢ graph from Dec-Feb. (What other evidence of this type exists?)
(b) Jackpots for certain slot machines are routinely won at Slots.lv, but not at Bovada.
(c) This issue affects Bad Girl, At the Copa, and what else?
(d) The issue seems to be with the Betsoft software, not with Bovada specifically, since the same problem is happening at other Betsoft casinos. (as per here and here)
(e) What other items to make the case am I missing?​

Questions to ask Bovada. The more specific the questions, the better the chances we'll get meaningful responses.

(1) Are the jackpot odds on Bad Girl supposed to be the same in both Bovada and Slots.lv?
(2) If so, how is it that Bad Girl $1, 50¢, 25¢, 10¢ and 5¢ are won at Slots.lv every week or so, while at Bovada.lv (which presumably has more gameplay) they have apparently never been won?
(3) If the jackpot odds are different between the two sites, then (a) Why is that?, and (b) What are the jackpot odds for each denomination on each site?
(4) [what else should we be asking?]​

Reference:

(1) The
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
. (I don't think it's been posted here yet.)

(2) Casino Listings'
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
, with average win, biggest win, average time, and last-won date.

(3) For the following, the first figure is for Bovada, the second is for Slots.lv:
locked-jackpots.gif

(4) Links to the Casino Listings page for each slot:

(5) I dug up the link to the
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
. Note that it's from 2012, which I think is before Bovada started using Betsoft software. But in any event, as someone who's programmed slot machines, I doubt the problem is with the RNG, but with the logic of the computer program. (i.e., The RNG is probably working fine, but the program isn't recognizing a jackpot hit as a jackpot hit.)
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
Bryan, did you hear back from the Bovada rep?

Yes, they replied on the 4th of March that they would be making a statement about this. I plum forgot since I was on the road for a good chunk of March and April.

Hopefully the resurgence of this thread will prompt them to get involved more.
 

RolfMoister

Dormant Account
Joined
Oct 20, 2014
Location
U,S AND THE A
*A LOT OF USEFUL INFORMATION*

First of all, thank you for your hard work and investigation.

I think that this issue is actually bigger than we believe, bigger than Bovada itself.
After digging through the internet and comparing numbers on almost all casino sites that offer Betsoft as their game are sharing the same symptoms.

My conclusion after comparing all the data is that Betsoft offer the games to the Casinos and offer the solution of locking or unlocking specific jackpots for them.
And in general I think they are blocked.
Because, several casinos in Europe with "high" reputation also got their games locked. You have to remember that Betsoft is a minor gambling software provider compared to Netent and the other big ones.
So a big casino with well reputation wouldn't lock their games in risk of losing their own license (which they may in Europe).

It is possible that the sites buy these games and actually don't check if it's winnable or not, and then when people like us come along and say "Your game is rigged", they just shrug it off because they get these emails every day.

However, there is a difference now, since Bovada surely knows about it right now, and they choose to do nothing.

Secondly.
A % of the value of the total bet size is going to the Jackpot.
Game providers usually take this % and keep it until the Jackpot is won, and when it is won, they pay it back to the casino, so they can pay the winner.
This is a frequent and total standard method to do when it is pooled, I don't know if Betsoft if doing this, but it would make sense.
Because, if Betsoft is holding the Jackpot on their account until it's won and they lock the JP, they could bring in big amounts of liquidity to their company and "release" it, when they feel like it.
Holding the Jackpot in their own account is usually for pooled jackpots so they can distribute the money to the winning casino, in any case though there are several sites where it is pooled, so we never know.

Thirdly.
In July 2014, Betsoft lost their rights and license of distributing their games https://www.gamingslots.com/2014/07/betsoft-gaming-loses-alderney-gaming-licence/ .
3D slot developer Betsoft Gaming has had its online gaming license revoked by the Alderney Gambling Control Commission this week.

The news came with little explanation or reason after it was confirmed by the Alderney Gambling Control Commission. Details are still scarce on exactly why Betsoft Gaming has lost its license with the regulator.
Apparently they did some kind of violation to make them get kicked out completely, even though the news won't tell what.
So what happens after that is that Betsoft just moves on to a new provider from Curacao. I read somewhere that the Curacao license is not as complete as Alderney and the others, in the way that they have more allowance of "shady business" or so to speak. Unfortunately I couldn't find the source right now.

In any case, I made an official complaint to "Curacao e-gaming" who supplies with Betsoft their current license, https://curacao-egaming.com/.
The official complaint was made weeks ago without a single confirmation or response.

I also updated Betsoft with the current situation again, and told them that I had filed a complaint with Curacao e-gaming due to the locked jackpot situation, no response there either.

So my conclusion is:
Most casinos that use the Betsoft software are not aware of the locking situation, and the few who have been noticed simply don't care.
This is an issue with Betsoft themself as a shady provider and Curacao e-gaming.
 

CL-Ed

Dormant Account
webmeister
Joined
Jul 28, 2014
Location
Australia
Hi folks, I run Casino Listings and developed the jackpot tracker. Thanks to jshort for pointing this thread out to me.

In response to MichaelBluejay's questions:

(1) Where does Casino Listings get its data? I presume they scrape it with bots.

Betsoft games request an updated jackpot feed every few seconds while you are playing them. You can see this for yourself using a HTTP sniffer like Firebug or Fiddler. We scrape them using our own bot, which is not trivial as you need to first automate a login to get a session cookie from a real logged in user for the feed to work.

(2) Is there a way to see the history of the jackpot level further back than two months?

Yes, we have all the data from whenever we started tracking a jackpot. We only show the most recent two months for performance reasons. If you give me dates you're interested in I can reconstruct a graph for any time period. For example
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
.

(3) On Casino Listings' "Bad Girl 10¢" page, the sidebar has a section called "Recent Jackpot Wins", that lists five jackpots won in the last five days.

You are right that is a bug. It looks to be showing wins on all Bad Girl jackpots regardless of coin size. I think I know why and it shouldn't be hard to fix hopefully.

(4) The graph at Casino Listings for "Good Girl 2¢" shows the jackpot *steadily declining* from around May 2 to May 16. I presume that data is in error. If not, what does it mean?

From time to time Betsoft's jackpot feeds don't return any useful data. It has happened before and I have never been able to work out why. After a while they just start working again without me doing anything to fix it. In this case a slowly declining line means that the jackpot was won during the time that we got no useful data. When the feed starts working again, the graphing software just joins the dots from the last known value to the current value. I don't believe that the software we use is capable of leaving gaps in the data which would be a better solution for times like those.

---

I have contacted both Betsoft and Bovada (through the affiliate program) about this multiple times. Betsoft never reply. Bovada have more or less said that their jackpots are random and it is just down to luck.

If I had to pick who to blame, it would be Betsoft. Whether the jackpots are indeed "lockable" as some of you have speculated, or there is a bug or deliberate bit of programming that makes the jackpots harder (or even impossible) to win, Betsoft is responsible.

I don't see the upside for Bovada to have the jackpots not being won. I would have thought it better for them to have more frequent winners as that equals more happy customers. The fact that there is no consistency between their own casinos suggests that it isn't a deliberate action by them (if it is, the person doing it is an idiot). The fact that the same game at the same coin size can be won multiple times at Slots.lv while never being won at Bovada, despite the graphs showing that more money is going into the Bovada jackpots, defies logic. Nothing is impossible with random numbers but that situation looks extremely unlikely to me if they are truly random.

If you want any more information, graphs, or data just let me know and I will try to help you out.
 

MichaelBluejay

Full Member
webmeister
Joined
Jun 16, 2004
Location
In Austin, Texas, man
Probably the end of the road

Thank you for detailed reply, CL-Ed. And by the way, I'm a big fan of your work.

I know you've made inquiries to Betsoft and never heard from them. I wrote to the Bovada rep here at Casinomeister a while back and never got a reply. So, I'm concluding that there's no easy way to pursue this further.

Best-case scenario: the jackpot odds are configurable and are set to be really long, but neither Betsoft nor Bovada will tell us anything useful, so we can't confirm that -- much less be able to estimate at what point the jackpots are likely to hit.

Worst-case scenario: there's a programming error and the jackpots are indeed not winnable, but again, with no cooperation by Betsoft or Bovada, there's no way we can confirm this, much less get them to fix the problem.
 

CL-Ed

Dormant Account
webmeister
Joined
Jul 28, 2014
Location
Australia
Another thing I just remembered after reading over my old correspondence on this issue. While testing Good Girl Bad Girl I found what I think is a bug in the progressive contributions.

For example at a 10c coin size, playing all lines and max bet, that is 75 coins bet for a total bet of $7.50.
- If you play Good mode and wager $7.50 the good girl jackpot goes up 7.5c (1% of bet)
- If you play Bad mode and wager $7.50 the bad girl jackpot goes up 7.5c (1% of bet)
- If you play both modes and wager $15, both jackpots go up 15c for a total of 30c (2% of total bet). I believe the contribution is being double counted here. It should be 7.5c on each jackpot for a total of 15c.

I told Bovada about this months ago but it is still the case as I just tested it again 1 minute ago. That bug isn't doing Betsoft or the casino any favours. Suffice to say that it looks that Betsoft games have sloppy QA and testing, at a minimum.
 

Bovada Service

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 14, 2011
Location
N/A
Bovada Service

Hello,

We’ve received an update from our provider; they’ve confirmed that they ran multiple tests on their games and that each test passed including the payout frequencies versus the math. They’ve concluded that there aren’t any issues with the games or the particular denominations being played. Simply put, these particular jackpots have just not hit yet.

Having said that, we’ll share the information provided on this thread with the software provider to further investigate the claims brought forth here.

While we understand that this response will likely not conclude the thread, we can assure you that we have done our due diligence regarding this matter.

Regards,

Bovada Service
 

MichaelBluejay

Full Member
webmeister
Joined
Jun 16, 2004
Location
In Austin, Texas, man
Bovada Service, thank you for your reply, but it's really incomplete. It's clear that there's either a bug, or the jackpot odds are configurable/settable. You say there's no bug, so that means the jackpot odds are settable. So therefore:

(1) Who is setting the various jackpot odds, Betsoft or Bovada?

(2) Why are the jackpot odds different at Bovada vs. Slots.lv?

(3) Can you tell us the odds of hitting the jackpots that have never hit? For example, a Cryptologic casino shared with me that the jackpot odds on three of their slots were 1 in 250k, 1 in 1 million, and 1 in 2.5 million, respectively.

If we know that the jackpot odds for a certain denomination are, say, 1 in 250k at Slots.lv and 1 in 5 million at Bovada, that will completely explain the discrepancy. But simply telling us "everything's fine" doesn't really explain anything.
 

CL-Ed

Dormant Account
webmeister
Joined
Jul 28, 2014
Location
Australia
I did some more digging into the data and
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
. Suffice to say that the Bad Girl jackpots at several coin sizes at Bovada are highly questionable.

One thing I would like to point out is that several of the Good Girl jackpots at Bovada rose to previously unheard of levels in the period roughly between February 11 and March 3 or 4 this year, and then they were all won about the same time and have since resumed their regular winning patterns. That is amazingly coincidental for "random luck" don't you think?
 

MichaelBluejay

Full Member
webmeister
Joined
Jun 16, 2004
Location
In Austin, Texas, man
Thanks, CL-Ed, you continue to bring the data that makes this all possible.

Here's some further analysis. Using the figure of a 1% contribution to the jackpot as discussed in the thread on your site, and the average win for each jackpot, I figured the jackpot odds as follows (for the jackpots that have actually been won):

Bad Girl 1¢, Bovada: 1 in 23,400
Bad Girl $1, Bovada: 1 in 21,883
Bad Girl 2¢, Slots.lv: 1 in 21,867
Bad Girl 5¢, Slots.lv: 1 in 21,253
Bad Girl 10¢, Slots.lv: 1 in 21,400
Bad Girl 25¢, Slots.lv: 1 in 21,792
Bad Girl 50¢, Slots.lv: 1 in 19,877
Bad Girl $1, Slots.lv: 1 in 19,169

So it's fair to say that the Bad Girl jackpot odds are around 1 in 20,000. (Without listing all the figures, suffice it to say that the jackpot odds for Good Girl are about in 11,000.)

The current Bad Girl 5¢ jackpot at Bovada is around $209,779. With a 3.75¢ contribution and a $400 reseed level, it's been played about 5,583,440 times without hitting, when all evidence is that it should hit around 1 in 20,000 spins. I think the way to calculate the odds of not hitting after 5.6M times if the odds are 1 in 20k is (19999/20000)^5583440. If that's correct, then the chances that it hasn't hit are 1 in 17,600,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Someone check my math on that one please?

Anyway, now I'm starting to doubt that the jackpot odds are really settable after all. I could see being able to bump the chances of winning down from 1 in 20,000 to 1 in 100,000, or possibly even 1 in 500,000, but 1 in SEVERAL MILLION?! (And we don't even know what the upper number is, because it hasn't hit yet.) So, either the jackpot odds are WILDLY, FANTASTICALLY settable, or there's some software problem. Unfortunately, neither Bovada nor Betsoft are helping us find out which is the case.

Finally, I'm reposting one of CL-Ed's images here (back when Good Girl exhibited the same problem), because it kind of crystalizes the problem. I don't think anyone can look at this graph and conclude that there's no problem.

betsoft-good-girl-5c-bovada.png


I hope Bovada will give a more meaningful answer.
 

MichaelBluejay

Full Member
webmeister
Joined
Jun 16, 2004
Location
In Austin, Texas, man
Addendum: I calculated that even if the jackpot odds on Bad Girl 5¢ at Bovada were set to a staggering 1 in 1,000,000, the chances that it should have hit would be 99.6%.

CL-Ed, do you think the issue is that the odds are settable and have been set to be really long, or that it's a software glitch? Me, I'm going with software glitch.
 

CL-Ed

Dormant Account
webmeister
Joined
Jul 28, 2014
Location
Australia
I suspect software error as opposed to malice as the inconsistency between games and coin sizes as well as the buggy jackpot contributions suggest that as well.

Given what is documented about how some of the jackpots "locked up" and spiked between February and March and then resumed their normal operation, Betsoft should be able to easily isolate the problem based on changes that were made then presumably reverted during that time. Assuming they use source code control that is.

The interesting question then is what happens if the problem is fixed? If Bovada leaves the jackpots at that level the games would be massively into the realm of player advantage. If I knew the date and time the games were fixed I would play them like there is no tomorrow until those jackpots go off. Or should they refund everybody's contributions because they have been playing games that aren't paying out as they should?

At a minimum I believe that they should be pulling these games until the problem is identified and fixed. Chalking this up to random luck and dismissing the issue is not good enough.
 

RolfMoister

Dormant Account
Joined
Oct 20, 2014
Location
U,S AND THE A
If Bovada leaves the jackpots at that level the games would be massively into the realm of player advantage. If I knew the date and time the games were fixed I would play them like there is no tomorrow until those jackpots go off. Or should they refund everybody's contributions because they have been playing games that aren't paying out as they should?

At a minimum I believe that they should be pulling these games until the problem is identified and fixed. Chalking this up to random luck and dismissing the issue is not good enough.
Bovada have this same issue on other games and they just did a clean reset.
If we take Greedy Goblins for example, those slots were chalked up to insanely high levels as well, and then suddenly they reset them.
 

CL-Ed

Dormant Account
webmeister
Joined
Jul 28, 2014
Location
Australia
Today, I'm in contact with
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
.

To summarise: the poor bloke plays The Glam Life slot at Betcoin casino and bets the maximum 5 coins per line (125 coins total) at a 50c coin size. The progressive jackpot meter claims to be over $1m at that coin size. He hits a free spins round and on one of those free spins he lands 5 yachts on a payline which should pay the progressive. Instead the game pays 1000 coins ($500).

Betsoft and/or the casino's explanation is at first that you can't win the progressive if you're playing at a 50c coin size because that is not the maximum coin size ($1). That might be acceptable except for the fact that we know that there are separate jackpots for each coin size.

This was pointed out to them so then they changed their tune and claimed that you can't win the jackpot during a free spins round. This is not documented anywhere in the game, on the paytable, or in any documentation anywhere.

Enough is enough. I am convinced that Betsoft games are crooked (whether by design or accident) and advise everyone to avoid them entirely.
 

MichaelBluejay

Full Member
webmeister
Joined
Jun 16, 2004
Location
In Austin, Texas, man
Thanks for sharing this, CL-Ed. I feel sorry for the player.

BTW, I wrote to my affiliate account rep at Bovada on Monday (same one you did), asking to whom I should talk about the unwinnable-jackpots issue, but I haven't received a response.

I edited all the advertising on my site for Bovada to warn players that some progressive jackpots there are unwinnable. I'm actively looking for a replacement casino to advertise that:

(1) takes U.S. players,
(2) has free-play browser-based games that don't require registration, and
(3) has a good reputation

But I can't find any yet, and probably none exists. Bovada used to be it, until they dropped the ball on this jackpots issue. Does anyone know of any casinos that meet all three criteria? Meeting one or two abound, all three, that's tough. I might be stuck with the current situation, advertising Bovada and in the same breath warning players against playing their progressive slots.

By the way, that huge figure I posted above, about how unlikely it is for the Bad Girl 5¢ jackpot to have not hit at Bovada? It's more than the number of atoms in the universe. Maybe I made a math error, but it seems right...
 

CL-Ed

Dormant Account
webmeister
Joined
Jul 28, 2014
Location
Australia
Affiliate Edge are probably your best bet overall (Club World Casino etc). I don't think their sites have free play games on them but they can give you free games to put on your own site if that it what you're after.
 

bowlingbob

Full Member
Joined
May 1, 2008
Location
usa
It would not surprise me that Betsoft is crooked. They have cheated in the past years ago with their Keno.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

MichaelBluejay

Full Member
webmeister
Joined
Jun 16, 2004
Location
In Austin, Texas, man
I heard back from an affiliate manager at Bovada. I presume I'm not able to share the details of what he told me, but in short, he basically said they've been actively investigating the issue for a while. I told them that their response has been completely inadequate. They should have confirmed the problem months ago and pulled the games in question, and now they should be giving much better public responses, including what actions they intend to take, along with timeframes. I'm not holding my breath.

Yes, I know the source of the problem is Betsoft, but Bovada is their customer, not us, so Bovada's the one that needs to put the screws to Betsoft, and they're apparently not doing so.
 
Last edited:

CL-Ed

Dormant Account
webmeister
Joined
Jul 28, 2014
Location
Australia
Thanks folks. If I knew how to make that message come up under your posts saying that I gave you thanks, I would do it!

Anyway today we decided to publish
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
. This was based on a number of things detailed here including the jackpot irregularities, the stiffing of the player on the bitcoin site, and bowlingbob's post about their keno games in 2010 which I wasn't aware of before now (thanks bob). It certainly casts everything in a new light doesn't it.

To casino operators, all I can say is that I am hopeful that casinos that are running Betsoft games might actually step up to the plate and apply some pressure by dropping them until all these issues are proven to be fixed, and until the guy who is owed a million dollars is paid. Don't forget it could be your casino next that has to go through the public shame of not paying a progressive winner.
 
Top