greedygirl
Purveyor of Onions
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There's an absolute difference between autoplay offered by the casino software and a bot brought in by the player. Two very different things.
Bot stuff from Spear's thread
- Thread starter greedygirl
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"Bots" are next to impossible to actually prove. A "bot" can be programmed to look almost exactly like a human playing perfect strategy, which humans can do. Disallowing bots is akin to saying "we reserve the right at any time to accuse you of using software, and we will not, nor can we, prove that you are, but our decision is final."
The term is simply indefensible.
Other possible terms and conditions for being accredited:
Any and all terms and conditions that can be enforced by the software should be enforced by the software. EG - if only UK players are allowed to play in pound sterling, a perfectly fair term, then the sign up form should only permit UK players to select pound sterling. If a maximum bet size is allowed when playing with a bonus, and the software can be programmed to specify that maximum bet size, then the software must be utilized to do so.
All deposit and withdrawal options listed on the website must be available to players where those options are permitted by the payment processor. Online payment processors such as Neteller or Click2pay must support both deposit and withdrawal options if permitted by the payment processor. To simplify - all deposit and withdrawal options must be displayed correctly on the casino website and in the casino cashier.
The casino must inform the player of any changes to their account with regards to deposit and withdrawal limits, bonus eligibility, comp point rewards, and VIP status. This term obviously is more important when the casino downgrades the player. (Recent experience: once casino downgraded my comp rate to a fraction of what they were before without telling me. I wagered about 10k before noticing my comps were not accumulating like they used to. No notice from the casino. The next day I log to play at another casino, same software provider, and a notice popped up telling me that my VIP level had been upgraded. If one place can do it, so can the others!)
I'll try and think of other stuff, but so far the rules show quite promise!
The term is simply indefensible.
Other possible terms and conditions for being accredited:
Any and all terms and conditions that can be enforced by the software should be enforced by the software. EG - if only UK players are allowed to play in pound sterling, a perfectly fair term, then the sign up form should only permit UK players to select pound sterling. If a maximum bet size is allowed when playing with a bonus, and the software can be programmed to specify that maximum bet size, then the software must be utilized to do so.
All deposit and withdrawal options listed on the website must be available to players where those options are permitted by the payment processor. Online payment processors such as Neteller or Click2pay must support both deposit and withdrawal options if permitted by the payment processor. To simplify - all deposit and withdrawal options must be displayed correctly on the casino website and in the casino cashier.
The casino must inform the player of any changes to their account with regards to deposit and withdrawal limits, bonus eligibility, comp point rewards, and VIP status. This term obviously is more important when the casino downgrades the player. (Recent experience: once casino downgraded my comp rate to a fraction of what they were before without telling me. I wagered about 10k before noticing my comps were not accumulating like they used to. No notice from the casino. The next day I log to play at another casino, same software provider, and a notice popped up telling me that my VIP level had been upgraded. If one place can do it, so can the others!)
I'll try and think of other stuff, but so far the rules show quite promise!
AussieDave
Banned User
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I agree
But the casinos need to clearly state this in their T&C's. Otherwise a player is in void of any casino T&C's that specifically state that autoplay can not be used.
Example:
xxxhttp://www.casinoaction.com/help/termsconditions.asp
Bonus Account Terms and Conditions include:
11. If the casino deems that the autoplay feature has been used for the purpose of meeting bonus account wagering requirements, Casino Rewards reserves the right to void winnings.
This particular term used by Casino Action is voiding the MGS autoplay tool that is built into the Viper software.
Cheers
T
greedygirl
Purveyor of Onions
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I agree
But the casinos need to clearly state this in their T&C's. Otherwise a player is in void of any casino T&C's that specifically state that autoplay can not be used.
Example:
xxxhttp://www.casinoaction.com/help/termsconditions.asp
Bonus Account Terms and Conditions include:
11. If the casino deems that the autoplay feature has been used for the purpose of meeting bonus account wagering requirements, Casino Rewards reserves the right to void winnings.
This particular term used by Casino Action is voiding the MGS autoplay tool that is built into the Viper software.
Cheers
T
Agree 100%. In the instance of this term, it is undeniably crap and should not be in place. I still see bots and software autoplay as apples and oranges...and both should be addressed as such. Yes to autoplay, no to bots.
Rusty
Banned User - repetitive flaming
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Nobody said they were the same but they are not completely different.
They both allow an automated game which is why I stated;
Autoplay is a form of bot.
Yes to autoplay, no to bots.
You can keep saying it but you need to address the arguments.
As it stands having bot play banned in T&C's just gives Casinos carte blanche to confiscate player winnings without any real evidence of bot play or that a bot (even if it could be proved) gained the player an unfair advantage.
I am sure you would get it much quicker if you had suffered as some posters here have in the past through this indefensible T&C and it doesn't help the industry any either.
Sorry GreedyGirl I don't understand why you would want to defend it.
Also sorry for the derail, so no more from me on this.
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Most bot users do so for clearing bonus wagering, not gaining an edge on the house. I can understand a casino wanting to restrict players from using them. The problem comes when a casino denies a large win to a manual player because they think his speed of play /# of breaks/bet size/... resembles a bot.
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The thing with bots, as aka23 mentioned, is that casinos will make these bot play accusations, and you as a player CANNOT disprove them*. The casino can't prove that you used a bot, but they will say just the accusation of that warrants your winnings being voided. That's why the term is complete nonsense.
* Sure you could film yourself playing the session, and have it witnessed, and that would probably be enough in a court of law, but when's the last time you did that?
* Sure you could film yourself playing the session, and have it witnessed, and that would probably be enough in a court of law, but when's the last time you did that?
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The big poker sites have advanced techniques to detect bot play, and I believe it can be done with a high degree of accuracy. In the case of poker I also think that anti-bot measures are crucial and most definitely in the interest of the player. So I would make an exception there.
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I am SOOOO against BOT playing it isn't even funny.
If it's autoplay used INSIDE THE CASINO SOFTWARE then fine.
But BOT playing is - in my humble opinion - upping your ante.
If you can't be bothered to be clicking and making your bets - and choosing wisely - and you're not even PRESENT playing....
Then get the HELL off of the game that I am on.
You're cheating, plain and simple.
If you don't want to admit it to yourself - fine.
But you're cheating if you use a bot that is NOT inside the casino software - AND YOU ARE THE REASON I AM NOT WINNING --- unless I get superbly lucky or something...
YOU ARE THE CHEATER - you are the reason that the odds are so stacked.
You have taken out the HUMAN ERROR - in the equation - and left all honest players in the dust.
WHY?
So you can make money.
You've given up on the CHANCE - and YOU Do NOT CARE about others - and you're a cheater if you use a bot.
My opinion only - and I don't care if you try to argue this - BOTS take out Human error.
Bots are not used by everyone - and those who use bots have an advantage that is UNFAIR.
They are NOT playing in the casino. They are trying to rake the casino.
Period.
Otherwise - WHY WOULD YOU USE THEM?
They are not in the spirit of gambling.
They are in the spirit of cheating. Getting over - finding an INHUMAN way to do the dirty work.
And if you use a bot - you're using something unfair to everyone else to your advantage - and you're a selfish cheater.
And that... Is... How WagerWitch feels about that.
/end rant
If it's autoplay used INSIDE THE CASINO SOFTWARE then fine.
But BOT playing is - in my humble opinion - upping your ante.
If you can't be bothered to be clicking and making your bets - and choosing wisely - and you're not even PRESENT playing....
Then get the HELL off of the game that I am on.
You're cheating, plain and simple.
If you don't want to admit it to yourself - fine.
But you're cheating if you use a bot that is NOT inside the casino software - AND YOU ARE THE REASON I AM NOT WINNING --- unless I get superbly lucky or something...
YOU ARE THE CHEATER - you are the reason that the odds are so stacked.
You have taken out the HUMAN ERROR - in the equation - and left all honest players in the dust.
WHY?
So you can make money.
You've given up on the CHANCE - and YOU Do NOT CARE about others - and you're a cheater if you use a bot.
My opinion only - and I don't care if you try to argue this - BOTS take out Human error.
Bots are not used by everyone - and those who use bots have an advantage that is UNFAIR.
They are NOT playing in the casino. They are trying to rake the casino.
Period.
Otherwise - WHY WOULD YOU USE THEM?
They are not in the spirit of gambling.
They are in the spirit of cheating. Getting over - finding an INHUMAN way to do the dirty work.
And if you use a bot - you're using something unfair to everyone else to your advantage - and you're a selfish cheater.
And that... Is... How WagerWitch feels about that.
/end rant
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Unlike poker, in a casino the players do not play against each other but they are always play against the casino, therefore what you are claiming is absolutely untrue. You have always the same chance of winning regardless there are bot players or not.
Bot players don't affect the odds in any way.
If you play games with stacked odds then it's your fault. You have freedom to choose the game with a house edge you like. You can play slots with 5% house edge or you can play Blackjack with 0,09% - 0,5% house edge.
How can they rake the casino if there is still a house edge?
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WagerWitch, nobody can make money by just using a bot. It's not possible to cheat on casino games. Taking human error out of the equation does not change the house advantage by much, assuming that most people know how to play the games that they do! If you set a bot playing Blackjack, you're still gonna lose 0.5% of every bet you make regardless of whether you're at the computer.
The use of bots is favourable to the casino as long as they are not being used for bonus clearing.
The problem is that there is a (widely held?) misconception that people can use bots to somehow cheat the casino. I think some casinos even think this. Certainly some casino managers have shown a poor understanding of EV in the past, but i'd like to think that most of them fully understand that non-bonus bot use can only be a good thing for them.
The use of bots is favourable to the casino as long as they are not being used for bonus clearing.
The problem is that there is a (widely held?) misconception that people can use bots to somehow cheat the casino. I think some casinos even think this. Certainly some casino managers have shown a poor understanding of EV in the past, but i'd like to think that most of them fully understand that non-bonus bot use can only be a good thing for them.
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As a computer software designer with 15 years experience I find this an outrageous statement. I'm not singling you out on this, I've heard it elsewhere and often, but I simply cannot and do not believe it.
I've personally hacked everything from university computers to computer games -- recreationally I should add, not for exploitative purposes -- and one big lesson I learned is that all software is imperfect and all software can be cheated.
Until a professional, someone in the biz who knows these systems from the guts out, proves otherwise I will continue to believe and advise that all systems are vulnerable under the right circumstances, no exception.
And given this topic I should say that user-supplied bots would fall under the category "the right circumstances", hence the near universal ban on them.
I should add that some highly respectable senior members here disagree 100% with what I've said. What can I say, I know what I know. And that's why I will hold this belief until a software savvy insider proves otherwise.
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"Taking human error out of the equation does not change the house advantage by much"
That is exactly my point.
There are one hundred players - ONE PLAYER is using a Bot.
That player has lost ALL human error.
The other players are facing the house advantage WITH human error - but the one player is NOT.
Unless you can guarantee that ALL players have the same advantages (minus stupidity - LOL!) then, in my mind - those who are using the advantages are cheating.
It loses the complete SPIRIT of gambling.
It means that people are only interested in WINNING - By whatever means they can achieve.
You can't change my humble opinion on it.
Bot users - are cheaters.
They wouldn't be using them if there wasn't a reason for it.
If you're in the game to play poker or slots --- then sit the hell down and play with the people... have the same odds - the same clicks - the same rules...
If you're in the game to make money - use your bot.
You're creeping up the edge for yourself - OR YOU WOULDN'T BE BOTHERED TO BE USING IT.
Try and justify it any way you can - but it comes down to this:
You have something the AVERAGE JOE player does not - and you wouldn't be using it if it didn't benefit you in some way.
What would you call that?
Me - I call it unfair playing advantage.
Because YOU aren't playing.
That is exactly my point.
There are one hundred players - ONE PLAYER is using a Bot.
That player has lost ALL human error.
The other players are facing the house advantage WITH human error - but the one player is NOT.
Unless you can guarantee that ALL players have the same advantages (minus stupidity - LOL!) then, in my mind - those who are using the advantages are cheating.
It loses the complete SPIRIT of gambling.
It means that people are only interested in WINNING - By whatever means they can achieve.
You can't change my humble opinion on it.
Bot users - are cheaters.
They wouldn't be using them if there wasn't a reason for it.
If you're in the game to play poker or slots --- then sit the hell down and play with the people... have the same odds - the same clicks - the same rules...
If you're in the game to make money - use your bot.
You're creeping up the edge for yourself - OR YOU WOULDN'T BE BOTHERED TO BE USING IT.
Try and justify it any way you can - but it comes down to this:
You have something the AVERAGE JOE player does not - and you wouldn't be using it if it didn't benefit you in some way.
What would you call that?
Me - I call it unfair playing advantage.
Because YOU aren't playing.
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@WagerWitch:
Do you consider the usage of Blackjack Strategy Cards as cheating, too? Some are using them and some are not, following your logic those who are using them are cheaters, because they have an advantage.
But this is not where the ridiculousness ends, following your logic you would also claim that those who are using Blackjack Strategy Cards are somehow affecting the winning chances adversely of those who do not use them.
Do you consider the usage of Blackjack Strategy Cards as cheating, too? Some are using them and some are not, following your logic those who are using them are cheaters, because they have an advantage.
But this is not where the ridiculousness ends, following your logic you would also claim that those who are using Blackjack Strategy Cards are somehow affecting the winning chances adversely of those who do not use them.
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@WagerWitch:
Do you consider the usage of Blackjack Strategy Cards as cheating, too? Some are using them and some are not, following your logic those who are using them are cheaters, because they have an advantage.
But this is not where the ridiculousness ends, following your logic you would also claim that those who are using Blackjack Strategy Cards are somehow affecting the winning chances adversely of those who do not use them.
I am sooo sorry Markus - but I don't know what BlackJack strategy cards are.
I'm assuming they are like a deck card that shows the different hands that are possible?
Is it something that they are looking at and then they are using their own finger to click the mouse?
If a person is ACTIVELY using something that takes their turn for them and deletes human error --- INCLUDING accidentally clicking on the wrong card - then yeah - it's still wrong.
The only thing I can say - IF IT DIDN'T DO SOMETHING FOR YOU --- didn't give you an advantage - You wouldn't be using it.
You aren't playing if you are letting a program play for you.
Therefore you are NOT playing - you're cheating.
Just my opinion - that doesn't mean YOU have to agree with me.
I don't need to win so badly that I would use something to gain an edge on the software.
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Yes, it's something like that:
Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)
In this table you can see what is the best decision in every situation. It reduces human error for sure.
If you consider this as cheating then A LOT of people are cheating. This Strategy Cards are even allowed in land based casinos! Don't you wonder why land based casino don't do anything against this even though they have the possibility (unlike online casino)? The answer is they know that they still make profit, maybe not as many as from a player without a Strategy Card but a little profit is better then no profit.
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Uhm Markus -- LMAO - Not ONLY have we hijacked Spearmaster's Thread (I'm so very sorry...)
Uhm but that picture is one ugly dude saying this site is decadent and weak...
If that is a card - then it should definitely be OUTLAWED. ROFLMAO!
But the card isn't the point - see - the player could get drunk and make decisions on their own - or ACCIDENTALLY screw up (or click on the wrong card - or whatever)... Or they could have a brain fart - or something --- they "might" go with luck... or chance... Who knows - there is STILL THE HUMAN ELEMENT and chance for error.
Uhm but that picture is one ugly dude saying this site is decadent and weak...
If that is a card - then it should definitely be OUTLAWED. ROFLMAO!
But the card isn't the point - see - the player could get drunk and make decisions on their own - or ACCIDENTALLY screw up (or click on the wrong card - or whatever)... Or they could have a brain fart - or something --- they "might" go with luck... or chance... Who knows - there is STILL THE HUMAN ELEMENT and chance for error.
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Sorry, this was because I have insert the image from another site (hotlinking) and they prevented it with this stupid picture. I have already edited my post.
Ok, this is your opinion I respect it. And I agree we should stop hijacking Spearmaster's Thread now.
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*wink*
It's ok to disagree.
Spear baby - you can have your thread back... LOL - sorry to jump in there like that.
It's ok to disagree.
Spear baby - you can have your thread back... LOL - sorry to jump in there like that.
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The thing is, the only advantage a bot can possibly give you is that you don't have to sit at your computer for hours. It's just a time saving device. Some people might get their gambling kick out of setting a bot playing 200 blackjack hands while they have dinner and seeing how much they've won/lost when they come back. It makes no difference to the casino. It doesn't sound like much fun myself - but personally i'd rather clean the toilet than sit there constantly clicking 'spin' on a slot machine like so many others seem to enjoy!
I'm sure software can be hacked (although online casinos are an obvious target and I don't recall any instances of this happening, so it must be very difficult!) but that's nothing to do with using a bot. Bots aren't hacking devices, they just mimic the actions of a human. Maybe a "no hacking or modifying our software" rule would be more appropriate.
WagerWitch, I know the blackjack strategy table off my heart (bar the occasional glance) and am very careful. I can play for hours without making a mistake. I never hit the wrong card unless i'm tired, and I won't play when i'm tired. Does that mean i'm cheating accoring to you? If I used a perfect strategy bot the end result would be exactly the same.
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Ok, let's run with that idea. Casino says "ok, run your bots for as long as you like, see if we care". For the sake of argument let's say I make one. So far so good.
Ok, let's step through this. (1) you're wrong, casinos do get hacked and they go apeshit when it happens. If they suspect you of doing it they will hunt you down and kill your family (metaphorically speaking) because if you've actually figured out how their system works (internal stuff) and handed that info on to others then their software is now partially or totally vulnerable.
(2) If I build a bot and you let me run it you have no clue what else that software of mine is doing. And you know what else it will be doing? It will be studying every byte of data you store, every data exchange between your client and the server software they run in order to determine what happens where and when. Once I've got that figured out -- and managed to crack your data encryption -- I can start trying to control the client software as I desire. Now the trick here is whether the client-server relationship is designed such that the server is invulnerable to client data manipulation. Quite honestly I don't know. But given how freaked out casinos get when players are caught reverse-engineering their code I'd say that somewhere in there are vulnerabilities. I'm not saying it's going to be easy but I am saying it's damn sure possible. If you let me run that bot it's just a matter of time before me and my mates have your client software by the short ones .. and my bet is that will not be a good thing for the casino!
(3) the whole point is that once the casino says "run your software" then they are going to have to be uber-detectives to determine what exactly I am doing on my system with that software running. I assure you it is possible to see everything that software does internally without ever tipping that software off to the fact that you are seeing it. Introducing doctored data into the data stream is not trivial but you can bet your private parts that it's not impossible either. So, bottom line, you have no clue whether my bot is just bot, or bot + hacking system, or bot + super-computer working overtime to suck you dry. Yes, yes, I know, very difficult, agreed. But "very difficult" is what hackers live for and to them, given the access and the time, nothing is impossible.
Like I said, this all depends on whether the server side is vulnerable to doctored data. If it is then the hackers will win. If it isn't then the casino is (probably) safe. At least that's what I can say given my experience.
Quite! But you'll never know the difference until it is far, far too late. A casino cannot detect remotely what a _smart_ hacker is doing. In it's simplest form -- in-circuit emulators and the like -- it is physically impossible to know. That said an ICE is useless as anything more than a listening and decoding device until you start introducing doctored data. That brings us back to the server data vulnerability issue.
My basic issue here is that non-tech people are in no position to judge whether client-side bots pose a threat or not. Frankly they simply don't know what goes on in the guts of client software. And the vast majority certainly don't know the data exchange internals between the client and server software. Without knowing that, and the degree of exposure the server actually has, novice statements on the issue are just hot air.
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The results from the random number generator are always calculated on the casino server. So it doesn't help if someone hack the client he can only let the client show a different result but the real result is saved on the server.
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Ok, part two of this:
I should add that there is another issue here and that is patterns within the game software. To put it simply many game systems are imperfect in that they will, over time, show patterns in their play. It comes down to the RNG they use. Now one side of this argument says that there are no patterns because they use truly random -- ie. non-software -- RNGs. If they do that's great. BUT...
I had a conversation with the team building a major brand's poker software. Admittedly this was a few years ago but let's run with it for now. When I asked if they were using non-software RNGs they said "no, too expensive". In their latest version they were using what boils down to recordings from non-software randomizers, geiger- or noise-based systems if you are into the tech stuff. Ok, great. How often to you replace the seed data (use a new recording) I asked. The guys shrugs, "every 6 months maybe" he said.
Bingo! Their system is using and reusing the same seed data. Given enough time and enough computing power you could find the patterns that would emerge for the period of time that they used that recording. Trust me, 6 months is a lifetime if you're concentrating of this seriously. Once you have the pattern you are well on your way to being able to reasonably predict outcomes. Now this still may do you no good if the system is sophisticated enough to massage the data to reduce the patterns predictability (data drop-outs, re-sequencing, etc). But sophisticated software costs lots of money and they may not have that kind of cash to spend.
Ok, you'll tell me that modern systems don't have that vulnerability. Fair enough, things change. Prove it. Until I see proof that all casinos can afford and do use non-software based RNGs, or some derivation thereof, then I believe the vulnerability argument still holds, based on what I've been told by people that build these systems.
Now another part of the argument I hear is that if their software has problems that that's too bad for them. Sorry, but that's simply unrealistic. If the bank knows that they are more likely to get robbed if they leave the vault open at lunch time them the bank is going to close the vault at lunch time. If the casinos know that their systems have vulnerabilities then they will scale the rules to protect those vulnerabilities. And so they should: no software is perfect. No software system is immune to hacking. No software system is perfect. These are the laws of software systems because that's just the way it is. Given this the "it it's broke it's their problem" is not reasonable because even if they don't know what their system's vulnerabilities are they damn sure know that someone, somewhere will find it for them. And since they know that they will do what they need to do to protect themselves and who is to say they shouldn't? Voila! We're back to square one.
I should add that there is another issue here and that is patterns within the game software. To put it simply many game systems are imperfect in that they will, over time, show patterns in their play. It comes down to the RNG they use. Now one side of this argument says that there are no patterns because they use truly random -- ie. non-software -- RNGs. If they do that's great. BUT...
I had a conversation with the team building a major brand's poker software. Admittedly this was a few years ago but let's run with it for now. When I asked if they were using non-software RNGs they said "no, too expensive". In their latest version they were using what boils down to recordings from non-software randomizers, geiger- or noise-based systems if you are into the tech stuff. Ok, great. How often to you replace the seed data (use a new recording) I asked. The guys shrugs, "every 6 months maybe" he said.
Bingo! Their system is using and reusing the same seed data. Given enough time and enough computing power you could find the patterns that would emerge for the period of time that they used that recording. Trust me, 6 months is a lifetime if you're concentrating of this seriously. Once you have the pattern you are well on your way to being able to reasonably predict outcomes. Now this still may do you no good if the system is sophisticated enough to massage the data to reduce the patterns predictability (data drop-outs, re-sequencing, etc). But sophisticated software costs lots of money and they may not have that kind of cash to spend.
Ok, you'll tell me that modern systems don't have that vulnerability. Fair enough, things change. Prove it. Until I see proof that all casinos can afford and do use non-software based RNGs, or some derivation thereof, then I believe the vulnerability argument still holds, based on what I've been told by people that build these systems.
Now another part of the argument I hear is that if their software has problems that that's too bad for them. Sorry, but that's simply unrealistic. If the bank knows that they are more likely to get robbed if they leave the vault open at lunch time them the bank is going to close the vault at lunch time. If the casinos know that their systems have vulnerabilities then they will scale the rules to protect those vulnerabilities. And so they should: no software is perfect. No software system is immune to hacking. No software system is perfect. These are the laws of software systems because that's just the way it is. Given this the "it it's broke it's their problem" is not reasonable because even if they don't know what their system's vulnerabilities are they damn sure know that someone, somewhere will find it for them. And since they know that they will do what they need to do to protect themselves and who is to say they shouldn't? Voila! We're back to square one.
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Ya, I know. I corrected that section of my post.
And keep in mind that there is a lot more data on the client side to hack than the results of the RNG. I am totally unconvinced that there is no data vulnerability on the client side because of how I've seen casinos freak out if they detect reverse engineering activity. There's something in there that is vulnerable to something and that's what they want to keep walled off from snoopy users.
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You do have some good points Max, and i'm sure you know more about the tech side of things than I do!
There was a case some time ago (2000 ish?) where some guys managed to crack the RNG of a large Poker Site so could determine the cards that all players had. They made loads of money but I think they got caught, there's an explaination somewhere online of how they did it.
It seems unlikely that the big names in casino software would allow this to happen again but I guess nothing is impossible. Btw I was always under the impression that a system using a non-software method for the RNG always took the recording in real time (ie it monitors noise continously and feeds it into the system). That way you wouldn't need to take a recording which needs to be replaced.
My main problem with the bot terms is when casinos crack it out to justify not paying a player who is "under suspicion" of using a bot. I mean, I can play 600 hands per hour solidly for a hours with perfect strategy if i'm feeling up to it (and the software is fast!) and I can see how it might look like i'm using a bot. But i'm not, and it's hard to prove otherwise.
There was a case some time ago (2000 ish?) where some guys managed to crack the RNG of a large Poker Site so could determine the cards that all players had. They made loads of money but I think they got caught, there's an explaination somewhere online of how they did it.
It seems unlikely that the big names in casino software would allow this to happen again but I guess nothing is impossible. Btw I was always under the impression that a system using a non-software method for the RNG always took the recording in real time (ie it monitors noise continously and feeds it into the system). That way you wouldn't need to take a recording which needs to be replaced.
My main problem with the bot terms is when casinos crack it out to justify not paying a player who is "under suspicion" of using a bot. I mean, I can play 600 hands per hour solidly for a hours with perfect strategy if i'm feeling up to it (and the software is fast!) and I can see how it might look like i'm using a bot. But i'm not, and it's hard to prove otherwise.
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@maxd:
Your points about the vulnerability of casino software might be valid, but I can hardly see the connection to bot play. Sure, they might be useful to break the encryption between client and server, but to see in every bot player a potential hacker and to use this as an argument against bots seems a little far-fetched to me. IMHO there are much more obvious reasons to forbid bots, like to use them to clear a wagering requirement of a bonus, I can understand that a casino don't like it.
Nevertheless there is one big problem with a rule that forbids bots: A casino can never prove with 100% guarantee that someone used a bot, therefore this rules is useless. And the burden of proof must be on the casino side because otherwise a casino can theoretically confiscate the winning of everyone just by claiming he has used a bot and the player has no chance to disprove this (except with filming himself as someone has mentioned earlier, but of course this is unacceptable).
Your points about the vulnerability of casino software might be valid, but I can hardly see the connection to bot play. Sure, they might be useful to break the encryption between client and server, but to see in every bot player a potential hacker and to use this as an argument against bots seems a little far-fetched to me. IMHO there are much more obvious reasons to forbid bots, like to use them to clear a wagering requirement of a bonus, I can understand that a casino don't like it.
Nevertheless there is one big problem with a rule that forbids bots: A casino can never prove with 100% guarantee that someone used a bot, therefore this rules is useless. And the burden of proof must be on the casino side because otherwise a casino can theoretically confiscate the winning of everyone just by claiming he has used a bot and the player has no chance to disprove this (except with filming himself as someone has mentioned earlier, but of course this is unacceptable).
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Hi guys, supper time in my corner of the world. I'll be back later to pick up where we left off.
Just for giggles, riddle me this: why _should_ bots be allowed? Aside from helping folks play faster or better than they normally would -- which I can't see are legit grounds for asking that they be allowed -- what other reasons are there?
Just for giggles, riddle me this: why _should_ bots be allowed? Aside from helping folks play faster or better than they normally would -- which I can't see are legit grounds for asking that they be allowed -- what other reasons are there?
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For the same reason some casinos have a autoplay function in their casinos integrated, which is basically an internal bot.
Benefit for the player: While gambling he can simultaneous do other things which requires his hands or concentration, like eating a meal, surfing the web, writing a mail, etc.
Benefit for the casino: There are more hands/spins/whatever played per hour and the player don't get tired of playing so he can gamble more money, therefore the casino makes more profit (except a bonus is used)
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- Apr 4, 2005
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- UK
While this is true, what you're talking about is high-tech hacking.
There are a few things to note here:
1. Casino owners generally don't understand their business all that well.They might understand marketing or how to run a call centre, but they probably do not understand how an online casino is programmed. The fact that they are paranoid more likely demonstrates their ignorance than any actual vulnerability.
2. I have not written casino software, but I've worked on plenty of client-server software. It's not rocket science - you do everything on the server. The client can do what he likes with what comes back but the actual results are on the server. Consider a blackjack game, what are the operations? The first is bet. When this is done you create a transaction which checks there is money in the player's account, locks that record (the player balance) to avoid a player trying to place two bets at the same time and take their balance negative, deducts the money from the player's balance, logs their bet, randomly selects two dealer and two player cards, then sends the player cards and the dealer upcard to the client. Obviously, you do not inform the client what the upcard is until he's made his decision. You wait for a response from the client - hit/split/stand/double/surrender. And of course you validate that response, just in case somebody's trying to split or whatever when it's not allowed. And then you log that in your database so there's no going back, and randomly select the next card (unless they stood/surrender), and send it to the client. And so you continue.
Even if the user has access to the source code, he shouldn't be able to discern any advantage. It's no different to any other transactional system - share trading systems, online shopping, etc., all use similar techniques.
3. As a matter of fact pretty much all bot use claims to date seem to be related to people attempting to cash out bonuses. I've not seen one credible allegation of 'hacking' bot use. There's a well-advertised bot that promotes itself purely as a tool for bonus play. Rather than spending an hour betting, the bot will do it for you.
4. In the unlikely event that casino 'hack' bots exist, it would be difficult to make much money. If blackjack suddenly starts paying over 100%, the casino would shut it down.
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If you look at the demo of the bot that's advertised for sale, it clicks and moves the mouse like a normal user would do. It uses the casino's normal user interface, not any hacking. Whereas microgaming's autoplay is in effect 'hacked' into the software, such that you can do something else at the same time, an actual bot is effectively sitting at the computer moving the mouse around and clicking the buttons.
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If a casino can show me conclusive proof of a reverse-engineering attempt on their servers, I might change my tune.
But that's not even the casino's problem - that's the manufacturer's problem. I would dare to say that every claim of reverse-engineering made by a casino powered by an industry leading software in the past five years is utter nonsense.
To put it very simply - bots increase playthrough rate and reduce human error when possible. The net result is STILL a house win over the long run, *except* where the servers have been hacked and/or the software compromised by a present or past employee.
It is highly unlikely that the RNG generation method, or seed, AND the gaming algorithms that determine the returned result can be hacked - and even then, the major software manufacturers should be experienced enough to detect abnormal activity (such as an unlikely run of negative results, for example). Determining the RNG alone, or the gaming algorithms alone, cannot produce the desired result.
Wanna talk poker - I might agree with that as there is very little to discover other than the composition of the card deck. But we are talking casinos here.
edit -> damn you lawnet, you weren't supposed to post while I was posting
Basically I agree with thelawnet.
But that's not even the casino's problem - that's the manufacturer's problem. I would dare to say that every claim of reverse-engineering made by a casino powered by an industry leading software in the past five years is utter nonsense.
To put it very simply - bots increase playthrough rate and reduce human error when possible. The net result is STILL a house win over the long run, *except* where the servers have been hacked and/or the software compromised by a present or past employee.
It is highly unlikely that the RNG generation method, or seed, AND the gaming algorithms that determine the returned result can be hacked - and even then, the major software manufacturers should be experienced enough to detect abnormal activity (such as an unlikely run of negative results, for example). Determining the RNG alone, or the gaming algorithms alone, cannot produce the desired result.
Wanna talk poker - I might agree with that as there is very little to discover other than the composition of the card deck. But we are talking casinos here.
edit -> damn you lawnet, you weren't supposed to post while I was posting
Basically I agree with thelawnet.
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By the way, I forgot to add that, to the best of my recollection, every instance where a "bot play" term was used by the casino involved the TIMING between plays. Not one that I can remember actually claimed reverse engineering.
Needless to say, banning someone based on intervals between plays is utter nonsense as well.
Needless to say, banning someone based on intervals between plays is utter nonsense as well.
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- Jun 16, 2005
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- Toronto
The only reason (beyond laziness) for casino game bots (not poker) is to take advantage of multiple accounts for multiple bonuses that all have small +EV, but not enough to warrant sitting there and doing the work yourself
If one can earn just a few dollars per hour manually, it's not worth it. By using a bot and multiple accounts, that few dollars can be multiplied many times over without any personal time used up making it very lucrative.
Oops...you asked for LEGIT GROUNDS for bot use
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Well, let's first link autoplay to bots. They are one and the same.
Then, we should note that Microgaming invented autoplay (if I'm not mistaken, certainly from an online perspective they were the first).
And lastly, many video slots in land-based casinos now offer autoplay. Yes, you can call it laziness if you like - but that's why 7-Eleven is successful, though they call that "convenience".
Then, we should note that Microgaming invented autoplay (if I'm not mistaken, certainly from an online perspective they were the first).
And lastly, many video slots in land-based casinos now offer autoplay. Yes, you can call it laziness if you like - but that's why 7-Eleven is successful, though they call that "convenience".
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In terms of making money there are no legit terms for bot use. But in terms of entertainment or legitimate "losing" play there might be. Maybe someone has bad eyesight or is disabled in some way but they still enjoy a game of blackjack? They could make use of a bot. I used to like playing video poker at MG using autoplay, it produced a crazy effect with cards flying everywhere at high speed. You can still sit there rooting for the royal flush, without worrying too much about holding the right cards etc. That's another use for a bot.
I'm sure there are many people who have crazy "systems" that they would like to set up with a bot. Obviously they will all lose in the long run, but that's another example where a bot could be used. Any casino should be quite happy with that kind of activity.
I'm sure there are many people who have crazy "systems" that they would like to set up with a bot. Obviously they will all lose in the long run, but that's another example where a bot could be used. Any casino should be quite happy with that kind of activity.
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- Oct 16, 2003
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- Alaska
OK...
Here's my question then:
WHY IS IT OK TO USE A BOT?
WHY ARE YOU USING A BOT?
That's the bottom line.
Are you gambling using a bot? NO.
Do you have ANY advantage over the average Joe player using a Bot? YES
Otherwise you wouldn't be using it.
Period, end of statement.
YOU WOULD NOT USE A BOT if it didn't give you an advantage.
This a TRUE or FALSE question - there is NO between answers of shades of gray.
Your average Joe Player doesn't use a bot.
True or False: A BOT player has an advantage over the average Joe Player.
True or False: The only reason you use a bot is to UP your play and up your pay.
True or False: The Average Joe Player - unless a streak of mad luck happens, will LOSE consistently against bot play.
This is why I refuse to play online poker games any more.
The people at the tables were using bots - and it made a significant difference.
I find it is cheating - period.
You have taken out human error and you have taken out of the equation simple things like timing and exhaustion, etc.
You have taken BEING HUMAN out of the Gambling Game.
And I think that gives the rest of the players a disadvantage as they continue to play IN THE SPIRIT of Gambling.
This is my opinion only - and it is alright if you disagree with me.
It's the same conversation you might have with people who discuss religion - or politics - to each his own belief and opinion.
Here's my question then:
WHY IS IT OK TO USE A BOT?
WHY ARE YOU USING A BOT?
That's the bottom line.
Are you gambling using a bot? NO.
Do you have ANY advantage over the average Joe player using a Bot? YES
Otherwise you wouldn't be using it.
Period, end of statement.
YOU WOULD NOT USE A BOT if it didn't give you an advantage.
This a TRUE or FALSE question - there is NO between answers of shades of gray.
Your average Joe Player doesn't use a bot.
True or False: A BOT player has an advantage over the average Joe Player.
True or False: The only reason you use a bot is to UP your play and up your pay.
True or False: The Average Joe Player - unless a streak of mad luck happens, will LOSE consistently against bot play.
This is why I refuse to play online poker games any more.
The people at the tables were using bots - and it made a significant difference.
I find it is cheating - period.
You have taken out human error and you have taken out of the equation simple things like timing and exhaustion, etc.
You have taken BEING HUMAN out of the Gambling Game.
And I think that gives the rest of the players a disadvantage as they continue to play IN THE SPIRIT of Gambling.
This is my opinion only - and it is alright if you disagree with me.
It's the same conversation you might have with people who discuss religion - or politics - to each his own belief and opinion.
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2003
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- Alaska
Uhm --- I dunno about you - but I don't trust the casino AUTOPLAY.
I really don't like autoplay at all.
However - IF the casino software provides the AUTOPLAY - then it is available to EVERY single player - Joe New Guy or Joe Old Guy.
It's not a separate - to beat the edge BOT.
I really don't like autoplay at all.
However - IF the casino software provides the AUTOPLAY - then it is available to EVERY single player - Joe New Guy or Joe Old Guy.
It's not a separate - to beat the edge BOT.
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2003
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- Alaska
And you guys are using the term BOT to cover CLICKING for you.
ME - I call using a BOT - one that has all your possible card counting - all your possible advantages - one that learns what you are playing and has figured it out for you.
A bot plays the best hand possible - and calls or folds based on the possible win loss scenario - whereas a human would possibly take a hand and continue on - based on feelings or based on luck - etc.
A bot never would.
Yes - there are pat hands that most gamblers know they should fold on - or etc. But some players would continue on - seeing other people's hands or on a "HUNCH" - etc.
A bot never would.
An a BOT is NOT gambling.
Gambling is an ACTIVE PARTICIPATION GAMING OF SKILL
Using a BOT takes that all away.
It means you want to make money - plain and simple - in the easiest way you can.
I guess, that's just the way I kinda feel about it - I don't use them - don't like them... Someone showed me one once and it literally beat the pants off all the players at the table - and I FELT ICKY... I mean really icky - like I had just done something VERY wrong.
It made me realize that all those times I thought I was playing someone else in a friendly game of online poker --- they were using something that could think faster - add faster and use percentages faster than the timer could start to count down - whereas a human would have to think or possibly time out... And it made me realize that it was SLIMY...
They weren't using the bot because their eyes were bad... they weren't using the bot to just play for them so they could clean their house once in awhile during a 9 hour run...
They were using the bot to make money off the other people in the fastest way possible..
And that's how I felt about it...
So - if you can tell me that --- this kind of bot usage - is OK Dokie... and just fine...
Then - I think maybe we've lost Gambling to people who stopped loving the game and just see it as a way to make money... And they will use whatever advantage that they can.
ME - I call using a BOT - one that has all your possible card counting - all your possible advantages - one that learns what you are playing and has figured it out for you.
A bot plays the best hand possible - and calls or folds based on the possible win loss scenario - whereas a human would possibly take a hand and continue on - based on feelings or based on luck - etc.
A bot never would.
Yes - there are pat hands that most gamblers know they should fold on - or etc. But some players would continue on - seeing other people's hands or on a "HUNCH" - etc.
A bot never would.
An a BOT is NOT gambling.
Gambling is an ACTIVE PARTICIPATION GAMING OF SKILL
Using a BOT takes that all away.
It means you want to make money - plain and simple - in the easiest way you can.
I guess, that's just the way I kinda feel about it - I don't use them - don't like them... Someone showed me one once and it literally beat the pants off all the players at the table - and I FELT ICKY... I mean really icky - like I had just done something VERY wrong.
It made me realize that all those times I thought I was playing someone else in a friendly game of online poker --- they were using something that could think faster - add faster and use percentages faster than the timer could start to count down - whereas a human would have to think or possibly time out... And it made me realize that it was SLIMY...
They weren't using the bot because their eyes were bad... they weren't using the bot to just play for them so they could clean their house once in awhile during a 9 hour run...
They were using the bot to make money off the other people in the fastest way possible..
And that's how I felt about it...
So - if you can tell me that --- this kind of bot usage - is OK Dokie... and just fine...
Then - I think maybe we've lost Gambling to people who stopped loving the game and just see it as a way to make money... And they will use whatever advantage that they can.
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- Mar 30, 2009
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- canada
wagerwitch prove me to that in your last session you didn't use a bot.
You can't (and yes, this is assuming you had full access to all of your betting logs). Each and every bet cannot be determined to be made by you OR a bot. The timing *does not matter* as a bot can be programmed to play at the same rate as a human.
As such, as a casino, I should be what, allowed to void your winnings because you can't prove you were not using a bot? Come on.
You can't (and yes, this is assuming you had full access to all of your betting logs). Each and every bet cannot be determined to be made by you OR a bot. The timing *does not matter* as a bot can be programmed to play at the same rate as a human.
As such, as a casino, I should be what, allowed to void your winnings because you can't prove you were not using a bot? Come on.
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2005
- Location
- UK
Of course you are.
Otherwise the result would be pre-determined. As already noted, Microgaming's autoplay is a bot. No different. If you autoplay blackjack at $500 I guarantee you will find that a gamble!
Many casinos would beg to differ, because they've added them to their software. Cryptologic has autoplay blackjack. Playtech has autoplay in some of their games. So does Boss. Microgaming have it on almost everything. I don't play RTG so I don't know about them.
- Joined
- May 29, 2004
- Location
- England
Yup well said. Bot or not, you're still going to lose. A casino should always assume that the player will play 100% correct strategy anyway. And a bot can do no better than that.
A bot in poker or any multi-player game is a big no-no. But a bot in a casino seems fine to me. And when it comes to a game of chance it shouldn't even be an issue.
Bottom line is that a casino will rarely if ever be able to prove 100% that a player is using a bot anyway, so the term shouldn't even exist for games involving an RNG.
Reverse-engineering is a whole different ballgame, not even related to bots IMO. If that's the issue, then the T&C's should be clear about that seperately.
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- Oct 16, 2003
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- Alaska
I don't know that I Agree or Disagree with a Casino Refusing to make payments for usage of a BOT.
That was not my argument.
My argument is - that if you are using a bot - your own personal standards should be checked at the door.
I don't know that a casino can tell that you are using a bot - UNLESS they have the ability to scan your computer and the programs you have running while you are playing --- WHICH I DO NOT THINK IS UNFAIR.
In land based casinos - they have security cameras and pit bosses and detectives running around - and ALL kinds of security watching your every move - so why shouldn't casinos online?
Hmmm?
I think casinos should be able to tell what casinos you have running on your computer ---- BUT ONLY IF YOU KNOW THEY ARE DOING IT.
Of course - great hackers will install a "cloaking device" etc.
But as the way is with all technology - it all boils down to...
YOUR CHOICES.
If you're someone who doesn't mind being a cheat - then nothing I say is going to matter.
(My own personal opinion that bots -not autoplay- are cheating devices)
Your choices as a player... Your choices as being a person.
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- Oct 16, 2003
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- Alaska
No - you're not - if you're playing poker.
I don't play BJ - and I don't even know if a Bot can be taught to win over house edge anyway - unless it can design a system to detect the house programming. Or it can figure a way to affect timing. I'm sure there are some out there - but I don't think BJ is figuratively in this... UNLESS YOU ARE PLAYING MULTIPLAYER.
And then you are beating the other players out - regardless of house edge - with a more advanced technique using a computer to determine your results. The other players win/lose based on their own playing - but you are playing with more advanced techniques so your win ratio is more --- WHICH IN THE END Means percentage wise that everyone else is going to lose more often because you are winning more often...
Right or Wrong?
Autoplay and Bots are completely different items.
Autoplay is based on the system software. It is designed for "CLICKING" ---but it does NOT always give the best advice --- AM I RIGHT? I mean - I've seen autoplay hold the wrong cards in Poker.
Again - I'm not a real BJ player - so I don't want to jump out of line on this with BJ.
I'm talking poker... And especially poker rooms where you are playing against other players. And maybe some slots games... If the bot can learn percentage time plays.
To me - a BOT means that the player using it - has an unfair advantage.
To me - a bot calculates better than a human can - AND QUICKER too - to produce the best possible hand - minus ALL human error.
And that is not fair to the other players in multi player poker.
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- canada
wagerwitch this was from a thread regarding on what the terms and conditions should be for casinos. Your personal opinions on bot play are fair and I agree that in Poker, it's not fair to the other players to use a bot.* But somehow this conversation got off track, I suppose as things often tend to do on here.
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- Oct 16, 2003
- Location
- Alaska
wagerwitch this was from a thread regarding on what the terms and conditions should be for casinos. Your personal opinions on bot play are fair and I agree that in Poker, it's not fair to the other players to use a bot.* But somehow this conversation got off track, I suppose as things often tend to do on here.
Sheesh - hang around me long enough - and I'm offtrack... LMAO!
Nah - there are just a few things that I'm highly agitated with - and bot play is one of them.
AGAIN - it is only my opinion - and I do not feel awful if any disagree with me...
It's just that I've seen people go downhill in online gambling - and I've learned that people cheat - and it's just well - AWFUL for the rest of us who keep losing.
It's like the little thieves at the store - the prices at the store go up a little bit because of those thieves.
Yanno?
LOL! and well - darn it - I'm really opinionated about some things.
And I realize that Casinos have the right to call out of play for bot usage - but that in reality - it would be very hard to prove.
And my point is this: People who are using bots - they really need to stop and consider why they are using those bots. And if the usage of bots makes them a better person. And so on and so on.
Integrity and honesty are something that we are losing and if we expect the casinos to offer those things to US - then we need to offer it back.
Yanno?
Last edited:
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2005
- Location
- -
Nope you are wrong. Autoplay = bot. Autoplay in MG will always hold the mathematically best combination, and calculate it almost instantly. It's just a bot thats included with the software. Same with Crypto, Playtech autoplay as thelawnet said.
Poker bots are a different kettle of fish, i'm not talking about them.
I think you're mostly referring to poker bots?
I'm strictly referring to using a bot at a casino where you're playing on your own against the house.
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2004
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- Pictland
Some misc comments, sorry for not connecting these back to the specific poster:
- re: non-software RNGs and the question of geiger "recordings" being used instead of the actual unit. We're getting pretty esoteric here but the idea is that the "recordings" were a way to cut costs. You buy a recording for a couple hundred bucks, you pay many many times that for the actual unit and it's maintenance. The costs issue -- and therefor the justification for using recordings -- may well have changed over the past few years.
- re: the design of client-side software from law-man: thanks for the info, sounds very reasonable.
- re: the cause of operator freak-outs re: reverse engineering being ignorance. again from law-man and again sounds perfectly plausible. It must be unsettling for those guys to make their living off of something they are essentially clueless about ... but don't we all, or at least many of us.
- re: Spear's "no legit case of reverse-engineering in a bot-related complaint". This could very well be true, no reason to think otherwise. I was talking about cases where I've had operators with evidence of (suspected) reverse-engineering/bot-use but have never seen the actual hard evidence to prove the reverse-engineering. That's usually kept under wraps by operator paranoia and fear of divulging something they themselves understand rather poorly.
- fwiw, I think law-man is pretty much on the money: "autoplay" should refer to a feature of the casino's software, and "bot" should refer to something outside of the server/client that is provided by the user on the client side.
- call me thick but I'm still seeing no justification for using a bot. Or are you guys saying that the whole "no bot" thing is just a smoke-screen used by the operators to selectively ban and steal from players? Knowing some operators I can see where that could happen, but I'm also pretty convinced that some operators are genuinely concerned about bots, which I can understand. Human error in skill games means cash in the pockets so one could argue that they see bots as a way for players to shave off some of the house edge. Obviously not something they'd be fond of.
- interesting to note that we're now making the distinction between autoplay in chance games and bots in skill games. Perfectly reasonable distinction of course: bots in skill games, especially poker, can help players enormously. I wonder how many operators would recognize, or entertain the possibility of making, the distinction. Some at least because of what's being offered my MG and others.
One result of this discussion is that I think I'm going to try talking to some inside folks at casinos we know and trust. I'd like to get some hard info on these things from their side of the table. Could be very educational.
Max out.
- re: non-software RNGs and the question of geiger "recordings" being used instead of the actual unit. We're getting pretty esoteric here but the idea is that the "recordings" were a way to cut costs. You buy a recording for a couple hundred bucks, you pay many many times that for the actual unit and it's maintenance. The costs issue -- and therefor the justification for using recordings -- may well have changed over the past few years.
- re: the design of client-side software from law-man: thanks for the info, sounds very reasonable.
- re: the cause of operator freak-outs re: reverse engineering being ignorance. again from law-man and again sounds perfectly plausible. It must be unsettling for those guys to make their living off of something they are essentially clueless about ... but don't we all, or at least many of us.
- re: Spear's "no legit case of reverse-engineering in a bot-related complaint". This could very well be true, no reason to think otherwise. I was talking about cases where I've had operators with evidence of (suspected) reverse-engineering/bot-use but have never seen the actual hard evidence to prove the reverse-engineering. That's usually kept under wraps by operator paranoia and fear of divulging something they themselves understand rather poorly.
- fwiw, I think law-man is pretty much on the money: "autoplay" should refer to a feature of the casino's software, and "bot" should refer to something outside of the server/client that is provided by the user on the client side.
- call me thick but I'm still seeing no justification for using a bot. Or are you guys saying that the whole "no bot" thing is just a smoke-screen used by the operators to selectively ban and steal from players? Knowing some operators I can see where that could happen, but I'm also pretty convinced that some operators are genuinely concerned about bots, which I can understand. Human error in skill games means cash in the pockets so one could argue that they see bots as a way for players to shave off some of the house edge. Obviously not something they'd be fond of.
- interesting to note that we're now making the distinction between autoplay in chance games and bots in skill games. Perfectly reasonable distinction of course: bots in skill games, especially poker, can help players enormously. I wonder how many operators would recognize, or entertain the possibility of making, the distinction. Some at least because of what's being offered my MG and others.
One result of this discussion is that I think I'm going to try talking to some inside folks at casinos we know and trust. I'd like to get some hard info on these things from their side of the table. Could be very educational.
Max out.
- Joined
- May 29, 2004
- Location
- England
Personally I can't see why there is even the need for a bot clause in games against the house where a house edge exists. A bot can't beat the house.
The only justification for a bot clause at all is in skill games against other opponents.
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2003
- Location
- Alaska
To me - bots are both. I truly HATE bots that are played during poker table games
I will NEVER play poker at a table again because of bots.
NEVER.
But I think BOTs lose the "concept" the "spirit" of gambling.
You're not gambling - the BOT is.
In Las Vegas there is NOTHING that pushes the buttons for you - nothing that plays the cards for you... Nothing that CHOOSES the cards for you.
They may give you a HINT - or the BEST possible chance - but as we ALL know - there is also the chance that those choice HINTS might not work out right... LUCK plays a part in the role - and the PLAYER CHOOSES.
Human error - human playing - is taking out of play with bots.
I think it's unfair - I think it's NOT gambling.
I don't use the Autoplay feature for this very reason.
I gamble because I like the "CHANCE" of gambling.
But Bots take that away.
And it becomes something else.
Anyhow - originally this conversation was about what Terms and Rights players should have.
Bots are, in my honest - humble - opinion should NOT be included in that.
Bots are not YOU gambling.
I will NEVER play poker at a table again because of bots.
NEVER.
But I think BOTs lose the "concept" the "spirit" of gambling.
You're not gambling - the BOT is.
In Las Vegas there is NOTHING that pushes the buttons for you - nothing that plays the cards for you... Nothing that CHOOSES the cards for you.
They may give you a HINT - or the BEST possible chance - but as we ALL know - there is also the chance that those choice HINTS might not work out right... LUCK plays a part in the role - and the PLAYER CHOOSES.
Human error - human playing - is taking out of play with bots.
I think it's unfair - I think it's NOT gambling.
I don't use the Autoplay feature for this very reason.
I gamble because I like the "CHANCE" of gambling.
But Bots take that away.
And it becomes something else.
Anyhow - originally this conversation was about what Terms and Rights players should have.
Bots are, in my honest - humble - opinion should NOT be included in that.
Bots are not YOU gambling.
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2001
- Location
- Heaven
This is not correct. Autoplay now exists on many video slots - and autohold exists on some video poker machines if I am not mistaken.
If you ask a dealer what to do at the table, more often than not they will tell you. Some games have a "house way" as well. And basic strategy cards are generally permitted when playing blackjack, although you may not put the card on the table itself.
