New Slot Announcement Bonanza by Big Time Gaming

[snorky510238]

So, here is my argument. If the bonus rounds are not predetermined, how can a slot be given a fixed rtp?

Let’s take some of the real HV games that apparently did a hit, of say £100,000 in testing (but I have read “maybe capable of more). The rtp should be unknown then, shouldn’t it?

So we are expected to believe that Providers are putting games out there and don’t know their maximum exposure and Casinos are prepared to host the game. I am not having that for a second.

If the bonus rounds do indeed work the way Fruitpro says, then your chances of hitting rtp would be next to zero because there would be so many variables.

Hypothetically, let’s say it works that way and there are thousands of outcomes (I would have thought more but even thousands is enough). Factor in the complexity of the base game and 96% would take some hitting if trying to achieve it naturally.

I would say, it’s more likely that when you load the game at any given Casino, that is your personal version so to speak. The same as loading a game on a console.

The game has automatically saved your “progress”. We know it does because Casinos have that information in the background. The tracker (don’t know the technical name), ensures you will deviate either side of rtp but pull you back inline eventually.

I think this would make more sense and explain why, if you happen to have a really good session (only in dreams nowadays), it’s usually followed by the session from hell or sessions as the case is usually.

How many times did you have a few decent hits at a Casino and find it did the same again the next day? In my experience virtually never. That doesn’t appear to be very random.

The other thing I cannot get away from and undeniably happens, is that the gameplay one day seems to be pulling results from the software from hell and then on the occasional good day, it pulls them from the software from heaven.

This is the part where providers have done their best but found it impossible to achieve a method of robbing punters blind without it being obvious to the naked eye.

Not everyone’s naked eye though. Most punters don’t even think about it or question anything, just like most things in life really, they accept it for what it is and to be fair to them, life must be a lot more simple.

However, there are also people that don’t trust everything they are told and don’t take everything at face value.

So when I used to do long sessions of a few thousand spins and at the end of it, I had lost £300, not seen a base win over x20 and not seen a bonus round, I wouldn’t just put it down to bad luck. If it happened once or twice, then yes perhaps but when that becomes more or less the “norm” for a bad session I would question it.

I would compare it to a good session (remember them folks?), where I had seen 10 bonus rounds and base hits up to x200 for example. These sessions are obviously chalk and cheese and that’s my issue.

If the results were being produced randomly, your sessions wouldn’t be black and white. It would be possible to experience some really shitty results, yes, but there would also be a reasonable chance that the next spin would recover all losses, plus some, but no, this very, very rarely happens.

I would say that the times I have been well down and recovered it by ploughing on regardless, is about one in a hundred. If you play a game regularly and you think about it, a few spins in, you are already aware of whether the game is going to take your money or not.

How often are you wrong? Not very often is my prediction. You can predict the outcome of your session after just a handful of spins with unerring accuracy. How is this even possible? A human being predicting the outcome of supposed random results. Well, I hate to disappoint but the simple explanation is that the results are not random, they are being influenced software.

And I will state with maximum confidence, that you are not on a level playing field most of the time.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

How often are you wrong? Not very often is my prediction. You can predict the outcome of your session after just a handful of spins with unerring accuracy. How is this even possible? A human being predicting the outcome of supposed random results. Well, I hate to disappoint but the simple explanation is that the results are not random, they are being influenced software.

So why aren't you a millionaire then?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Nothing like a coin or dice toss. So not comparible.

It is though, it's just a massive pool of random results and every time you press SPIN you're getting one of the possible results. Yes the maths on something like Bonanza is fearsomely complex compared to a coin, or a die, or a roulette wheel - but throw enough samples at it, and it amounts to the same thing.

The other thing to remember is that of all the (massive) combinations of results you can get from any single spin on Bonanza, the massive, massive majority of the results will be 0-20x, then you've got fewer in 21-50x, fewer again in 51-100x, and so on up the payscale, so an overwhelming preponderance of your results will actually come out of an entirely predictable range.

The thing I find slightly amusing about all of this tinfoil hattery regarding Bonanza (and slots in general, but Bonanza particularly so), is that it always ends up with, 'My RTP finished up at about 96% BUT THERE'S STILL SOMETHING FISHY GOING ON YOU KNOW'.

Or maybe, and here's a crazy idea, it's a random game with a 4% house edge and in the end, the house took about 4% off you.

 

[snorky510238]

So why aren't you a millionaire then?

Because the vast majority of the time, the initial spins tell me it’s going to be a waste of time so I jump to another game, same feeling and so on….Deposit lost.

Can you never predict the likelihood of what’s going to happen?

 

[interlog]

Because the vast majority of the time, the initial spins tell me it’s going to be a waste of time so I jump to another game, same feeling and so on….Deposit lost.

Can you never predict the likelihood of what’s going to happen?

There have been many a times that I was down to the last few spins and finally the bonus dropped in or a big base game win happened, turning what looked like a losing session into a profitable one. And I am not the only one, our own @dunover had similar going by some of the videos that he has posted.

 

[snorky510238]

There have been many a times that I was down to the last few spins and finally the bonus dropped in or a big base game win happened, turning what looked like a losing session into a profitable one. And I am not the only one, our own @dunover had similar going by some of the videos that he has posted.

Yes, it happens but not often.

 

[interlog]

Yes, it happens but not often.

Well, I never predicted that, hence that I am saying that when I start a slotting session, I have no idea what the outcome of it is, even after having played a few spins.

If I did, I would be filthy rich.......

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Because the vast majority of the time, the initial spins tell me it’s going to be a waste of time so I jump to another game, same feeling and so on….Deposit lost.

Can you never predict the likelihood of what’s going to happen?

No, because they're random games. If I could predict what was going to happen on a random game I'd be writing this message from the deck of my private yacht in the Seychelles.

I've have bad runs of luck, I've had good runs of luck, I've had awful runs, and fantastic runs, and everything in-between, but at no point have I ever known what's going to happen before I start spinning.

I hit a feature on (BTG's) The Final Countdown within 24 spins of my very first real money session, and it paid 5698x stake, that's lottery odds right there, but shit like that happens - it doesn't 'mean' anything, and it doesn't mean the game has to take it back off me if I carry on playing it. Well, it means I got incredibly lucky, but that's all.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

It is though, it's just a massive pool of random results and every time you press SPIN you're getting one of the possible results. Yes the maths on something like Bonanza is fearsomely complex compared to a coin, or a die, or a roulette wheel - but throw enough samples at it, and it amounts to the same thing.

The other thing to remember is that of all the (massive) combinations of results you can get from any single spin on Bonanza, the massive, massive majority of the results will be 0-20x, then you've got fewer in 21-50x, fewer again in 51-100x, and so on up the payscale, so an overwhelming preponderance of your results will actually come out of an entirely predictable range.

The thing I find slightly amusing about all of this tinfoil hattery regarding Bonanza (and slots in general, but Bonanza particularly so), is that it always ends up with, 'My RTP finished up at about 96% BUT THERE'S STILL SOMETHING FISHY GOING ON YOU KNOW'.

Or maybe, and here's a crazy idea, it's a random game with a 4% house edge and in the end, the house took about 4% off you.

I was talking about the bonanza bonus round which isn’t the same as a dice toss. Because the odds of hitting 6 of a kind diamonds is greatly less than hitting 3 of a kind 9’s. Where as a dice has the same odds for hitting any number, regardless of how many faces it has.

Hence why 99% of bonanza bonuses are shit. You need the miracle bit of luck to get through all the bent hits to hit the decent one.

But yes given a trillion bonuses they’ll be enough hitting the bigger hits out of all the shitters to make the average bonus accurate enough to get the RTP from it.

 

[johnnymcc1966]

Just posted on winner screenshots for April but a £20 deposit at Virgin Games yielded two bonuses and the second one was a plus 5 scatter. It paid ok in the end.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I was talking about the bonanza bonus round which isn’t the same as a dice toss. Because the odds of hitting 6 of a kind diamonds is greatly less than hitting 3 of a kind 9’s. Where as a dice has the same odds for hitting any number, regardless of how many faces it has.

Hence why 99% of bonanza bonuses are shit. You need the miracle bit of luck to get through all the bent hits to hit the decent one.

But yes given a trillion bonuses they’ll be enough hitting the bigger hits out of all the shitters to make the average bonus accurate enough to get the RTP from it.

Ahhh right yes point taken, although ultimately if you condense it right down, you press SPIN, and some time later you are presented with a result as a multiplication of stake. (A feature buy is, in a way, a sort of spin, where you're simply paying for one of the 'better' ones.)

Again though, you won't need a trillion bonuses, probably more like 1000-2000 or so start to get you within the ballpark of the expected average feature return on Bonanza (86x or whatever it is), for the same reason you don't need a massive spin sample to start to get close to RTP, because most of the bonus round returns are going to be within a sensible distance of the expected average pay.

 

[mack341]

It's uncanny how dead spins and minute wins follow a decent base game win, this is what the ukgc should be checking, whether these spins consistently fare worse than the average.

 

[snorky510238]

Chopley, I kind of get where you’re coming from but if outcomes of bonus round’s aren’t fixed, you still have a wide parameter of results available.

Are you saying that 85% of the time you will get bent reel strip A, 10% bent reels B, 5% bent reels C. A being x0-x100, B between 100-500 and C being x500+ or something like that. With the possibility that B and C could do a monster but still have the potential to pay small too?

 

[snorky510238]

It's uncanny how dead spins and minute wins follow a decent base game win, this is what the ukgc should be checking, whether these spins consistently fare worse than the average.

Yes, like I have always stated. With a game like Bonanza, you would think it impossible to hit 15 dead spins in a row, given the way the reel symbols are portrayed but it became the “norm”. Yet you never hit 7 or 8 consecutive winning spins do you?

You would think that somewhere in a 2 million spin sample, that would have occurred a few times, wouldn’t you?

 

[mack341]

Yes, like I have always stated. With a game like Bonanza, you would think it impossible to hit 15 dead spins in a row, given the way the reel symbols are portrayed but it became the “norm”. Yet you never hit 7 or 8 consecutive winning spins do you?

You would think that somewhere in a 2 million spin sample, that would have occurred a few times, wouldn’t you?

I still think there's a possibility bonanza is the same as jammin jars, I think Chopley did a video on that game, a glorified scratch card where the rng brings back 'no win' or whatever times stake, and then the program just arranges the reels to show it [incl cascades].

That makes more sense to me than the other way, reels land independently and then game adds up the result from what landed.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I still think there's a possibility bonanza is the same as jammin jars, I think Chopley did a video on that game, a glorified scratch card where the rng brings back 'no win' or whatever times stake, and then the program just arranges the reels to show it [incl cascades].

That makes more sense to me than the other way, reels land independently and then game adds up the result from what landed.

Yes Jammin' Jars is a 'scratch card' style game, this was confirmed on the forums by the CM rep (It was @trancemonkey who originally made the call that was how he reckoned the game worked, quite correctly as it turned out.) Basically the RNG makes a call to the entire pool of possible results, the server delivers one back, and the client then plays out the pre-scripted sequence that corresponds to that result.

The mistake Push Gaming made was only putting 1.2m sequences into the result pool, so when all the streamers hit the game at launch, we started seeing exactly the same sequences play out on multiple streams, leading to calls of shenanigans until Push Gaming explained the situation. (To be clear, there's nothing wrong with running a random game like that per se, it can still be entirely random and fair, but it looks very fishy.)

I honestly don't think Bonanza works like that, it's got a really complex maths model, multiple reel sets, very cleverly designed reels, reels it can switch out dynamically, and so on. You've got to remember that the amount of processing power that can be chucked at slots these days when it comes to developing and designing them massively eclipses what was available in the earlier days of online slots, a slot like Bonanza probably wouldn't even have been feasible to create back in the early-mid 2000s - the maths involved would have been too complex, but stick another decade of horsepower onto things, and it became a possibility.

From where I'm sitting, Bonanza is a random game, no compensation, no shenanigans, but it does have a fiendishly complex maths model that takes it well beyond your standard 20-liner of years gone by. Human beings like to see patterns in things, we hate randomness and chaos and always try to bring order to what we see around us, IMO that's what's happening with Bonanza - when really, at the heart of all is a random, albeit very complex, online slot.

 

[snorky510238]

That would seem much more likely, Mack. I would even go as far as to say all games work that way. As stated, Casinos wouldn’t want to take a chance with games that could potentially pay much more than they did in testing. Any business wouldn’t want to entertain an unknown liability.

 

[dunover]

Yes Jammin' Jars is a 'scratch card' style game, this was confirmed on the forums by the CM rep (It was @trancemonkey who originally made the call that was how he reckoned the game worked, quite correctly as it turned out.) Basically the RNG makes a call to the entire pool of possible results, the server delivers one back, and the client then plays out the pre-scripted sequence that corresponds to that result.

The mistake Push Gaming made was only putting 1.2m sequences into the result pool, so when all the streamers hit the game at launch, we started seeing exactly the same sequences play out on multiple streams, leading to calls of shenanigans until Push Gaming explained the situation. (To be clear, there's nothing wrong with running a random game like that per se, it can still be entirely random and fair, but it looks very fishy.)

I honestly don't think Bonanza works like that, it's got a really complex maths model, multiple reel sets, very cleverly designed reels, reels it can switch out dynamically, and so on. You've got to remember that the amount of processing power that can be chucked at slots these days when it comes to developing and designing them massively eclipses what was available in the earlier days of online slots, a slot like Bonanza probably wouldn't even have been feasible to create back in the early-mid 2000s - the maths involved would have been too complex, but stick another decade of horsepower onto things, and it became a possibility.

From where I'm sitting, Bonanza is a random game, no compensation, no shenanigans, but it does have a fiendishly complex maths model that takes it well beyond your standard 20-liner of years gone by. Human beings like to see patterns in things, we hate randomness and chaos and always try to bring order to what we see around us, IMO that's what's happening with Bonanza - when really, at the heart of all is a random, albeit very complex, online slot.

Don't forget Bonanza uses different reel strips in the free spins than the base game. There's also no rules against reducing win-spin odds progresssively as the round plays out, again with altered reel strips. So say 50% win chance on spin 1, reducing to say 25% on spin 12 and those thereafter i.e. retriggers. It's also allowed that the average ways-per-spin is lowered during a bonus. This explains how the last spin is seldom a win and also how many players including myself have seen big hits in the first spin or 2 (x stake) where little or no multiplier is in play.

The chance of big ways & wins when the multiplier is say at 12x or more are vanishingly small. Perhaps that's why this hallowed 14,800x at the start of 2017 has not been neared since (as far as we know.)

Remember developers can pretty much do what they like in bonus rounds, gimp them to their heart's content. As long as the game is random and pays its stated RTP.

 

[Kroffe]

That would seem much more likely, Mack. I would even go as far as to say all games work that way. As stated, Casinos wouldn’t want to take a chance with games that could potentially pay much more than they did in testing. Any business wouldn’t want to entertain an unknown liability.

There was that Razor shark win that went above the advertised max win of 50.000x.
But i dont know, imo its more than just a little suspicious that this one in a billion(s) hit happened at 'streamer stakes'. (50Sek = €5ish)
I would guess that about 99.99% of all spins done on the slot is with bets lower than that, which to me makes it a bit hard to believe.

Same with that mega hit on Bonanza that happened a 100 years ago, not actually someone recording the bonus but BTG re-creating what supposedly happened.
Would be a pretty good way to generate hype around a slot, not that BTG would ever fake a win. lol.

 

[mack341]

Yes Jammin' Jars is a 'scratch card' style game, this was confirmed on the forums by the CM rep (It was @trancemonkey who originally made the call that was how he reckoned the game worked, quite correctly as it turned out.) Basically the RNG makes a call to the entire pool of possible results, the server delivers one back, and the client then plays out the pre-scripted sequence that corresponds to that result.

The mistake Push Gaming made was only putting 1.2m sequences into the result pool, so when all the streamers hit the game at launch, we started seeing exactly the same sequences play out on multiple streams, leading to calls of shenanigans until Push Gaming explained the situation. (To be clear, there's nothing wrong with running a random game like that per se, it can still be entirely random and fair, but it looks very fishy.)

I honestly don't think Bonanza works like that, it's got a really complex maths model, multiple reel sets, very cleverly designed reels, reels it can switch out dynamically, and so on. You've got to remember that the amount of processing power that can be chucked at slots these days when it comes to developing and designing them massively eclipses what was available in the earlier days of online slots, a slot like Bonanza probably wouldn't even have been feasible to create back in the early-mid 2000s - the maths involved would have been too complex, but stick another decade of horsepower onto things, and it became a possibility.

From where I'm sitting, Bonanza is a random game, no compensation, no shenanigans, but it does have a fiendishly complex maths model that takes it well beyond your standard 20-liner of years gone by. Human beings like to see patterns in things, we hate randomness and chaos and always try to bring order to what we see around us, IMO that's what's happening with Bonanza - when really, at the heart of all is a random, albeit very complex, online slot.

I've made this suggestion before [though not re Bonanza] and it always receives a strong no [I think the last time was from trancemonkey iirc] even though as you say/imply it would fulfill the regulator's random requirements.

The wins in a game must match the paytable, so not that many variations or complex, e.g. a £2 win on a 20p spin, how many ways can thay be reached with the available symbols.

Whatever happens on the rest of the sceen is eye candy, a complex looking losing screen is still a dud to the player, so why bother with complex maths and the rest to decide it, efficiency would be the scratch card approach as it guarantees no mistake from the maths. [Admittedly I am speaking from a very layman's level of understanding here].

The program could put whatever combinations up on the screen as long as it was prevented from displaying any connections making a winning line. How many combinations can you achieve with 100 numbers - according to quora it is: 93,326,215,443,944,152,681,699,238,856,266,700,490,715,968,264,381,621,468,592,963,895,217,599,993,229,915,608,941,463,976,156,518,286,253,697,920,827,223,758,251,185,210,916,864,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

So I don't understand why Jammin only had 1.2 million results if any symbols can be arranged randomly to represent no wins.

I'm not saying 100% I think bonanza is done this way, but it woudn't surprise me having played it a fair bit, too much convenient positioning goes on between the main screen, conveyor and cascades.

 

[pinnit2014]

FWIW, i think the variance has been tweaked - my average bonus was probably the same as 2018 but the difference was you needed to invest more, to get it. It brings an interesting convo over how much RTP matters: RTP v tweaks in variance: one is governed, apparently, by regulation, one it doesn't matter.

But who knows, Chopley's back playing at VS so anything is possible!

 

[ChopleyIOM]

But who knows, Chopley's back playing at VS so anything is possible!

Haven't deposited there for a few weeks now, migrated to Rizk as they are still running top RTPs and also still have stuff like Book Of 99 on their books. Even so, I took a near £400 kicking on 3 Lucky Leprechauns (documented in its thread) on 20p spins for bugger all return and was like, 'What a bloody waste of money that was', so I bought a PS5 and have been smashing that for the last two weeks instead, far better value for money!

I popped my head above the online slots parapet and very quickly regretted it, so I've just retreated to the safety of 3Dice and videogames

(I solved the whole depositing problem by signing up at Revolut, I can fund my Revolut account with my main HSBC account, and then use a Revolut virtual card for online casino deposits. I can also use the same Revolut virtual card to buy crypto for 3Dice, and it keeps a nice degree of separation between my actual bank account and online casino/crypto stuff. Honestly though, I think I'll just stick to 3Dice going forward, what 3 Lucky Leprechauns did to me, even on the 96% version, wasn't entirely edifying.)

 

[hogexd]

everyone should unironically try a few sessions of Bonanza 2.0, aka Extra Chilli. It drops bonuses far more consistently, and can pay fairly well even with 8 spins (no gambles)

 

[Schind]

From where I'm sitting, Bonanza is a random game, no compensation, no shenanigans, but it does have a fiendishly complex maths model that takes it well beyond your standard 20-liner of years gone by. Human beings like to see patterns in things, we hate randomness and chaos and always try to bring order to what we see around us, IMO that's what's happening with Bonanza - when really, at the heart of all is a random, albeit very complex, online slot.

It's not random. Software can't do truly random. To quote Von Neumann "Anyone who attempts to generate random numbers by deterministic means is, of course, living in a state of sin."

You never did reply to my chart showing how it isn't random. I'd like to see something from you that explains how those numbers are more likely to be random than not.
You keep asserting it's random so it's up to you to provide some evidence of your beliefs.
In the meantime my RTP after 97,000 spins is now up to 97.11%. After experimenting for four months I'm now playing based on the results of those experiments. It's quite simple and a basic of gambling - when it's not paying out stop playing, when it is paying out hit it hard. And avoid the five day cycle of very few 'D's. The maths is not complicated, it's actually quite simple. Don't hope that some random massive win will come in when it's in a 60% mode. It won't.

 

[snorky510238]

everyone should unironically try a few sessions of Bonanza 2.0, aka Extra Chilli. It drops bonuses far more consistently, and can pay fairly well even with 8 spins (no gambles)

But the rtp is virtually identical so technically long term, one can’t be any better than the other. Depends on how the rtp is distributed though to be fair and imo they both used to be very good games, they are now, both shite. I’d still argue Bonanza is slightly less shite than Chilli based on big wins posted and previous experience.