Bellavegas(Microgaming) won't pay 20K

[suzecat]

Well, it's true that it's difficult to sue foreign corporations in places like Gibraltar and Belize. Courts need jurisdiction, in order to hear a lawsuit. As a general rule, courts in one country don't have jurisdiction over another country.

Also, since internet gambling is illegal in the US, no US court would hear a lawsuit over an activity that was illegal in the first place.

Finally, even if you did somehow get a court to rule in your favor, you wouldn't be able to collect on any judgment, unless the casino had assets that you could seize. Since the casinos are careful not to keep assets in the US, that would be impossible.


The casino industry runs on trust.


The only they have to fear is that people will find out that their money isn't safe with them, and that new players won't keep depositing.

Even though Autumn has no effective recourse, at least now other players have been warned.

BellaVegas was happy to advertise for 18 year-olds. They were happy to take Autumn's money, even after she told them she was 19. They're happy to take Americans' money, even though - according to their Terms and Conditions - no American is eligible to play there.

They only became unhappy when Autumn won money at their casino.

What's to stop them from becoming unhappy if you or I win money there?

Apparently, nothing.


"Nicky's methods of betting weren't scientific, but they worked. When he won, he collected. When he lost, he told the bookies to go f... themselves. I mean, what were they going to do, muscle Nicky? Nicky was the muscle."

--Robert Deniro, Casino

Linus, I couldn't agree with you more. Online gambling is a "sticky-wicket" -- a cyber version of the Old Old West. Trust is fundamental and players who come here and let us know their experiences (good or bad) do us a service that is almost impossible to repay.

 

[jetset]

Trust is fundamental and players who come here and let us know their experiences (good or bad) do us a service that is almost impossible to repay.

Amen to that!

 

[amandajm]

Forget the waffle.

Cherrypicking Nevada law will not wash.

Pay the 19 year old or nion kill the industry. I am easy either way.

 

[iataz]

One thing I gotta say is that I never thought I'd see the day where a Micro (and especially one with an ECogra Seal) would be rogued. Not even sure if I totally agree with it,.

I have to disagree Pina.. issues have been going on with these casinos for awhile now, this IMHO was just the icing on the cake.. and I can guarantee you that Grand Prive could care less if they are on the Rogue list or not..as I was told by Marc at one time that "they don't pay a lot of attention to what is posted at CM because those people that are posting are the type of players that the casino doesn't want and those players know why"

Fact is that you don't get "carded" sometimes UNTIL you win big. I've had cashouts of $500, $1000, even up to $7,000 and never been asked for one piece of ID, not even so much as a phone call to verify that I'm not a 12-year old (I'm 42). All too often the only time ID gets asked for is when a progressive gets hit or an amount say over 10K. I'm not saying that's right, just saying that I think it's very common practice is all.

The first time I ever cashed out at Grand Prive, Fortune Lounge, I had to fax them a copy of my id and a copy of a utility bill. Things must have changed in the past couple of years.

 

[amandajm]

Meister ruled against the player.
Meister ruled against the casino.
# Same dispute.

Of course they are not bothered by such a thing.

 

[spearmaster]

Trust me, Grand Prive cares about what is being said in here. They may not admit to it, but they are certainly aware that Casinomeister is the bellwether of the industry as far as players are concerned.

 

[ChristopherB]

for Suzecat

Suzecat- you are quoting the wrong statute. The one you quoted is related to cheating and cheating equipment. The correct statute regarding internet gambling are NRS 465.093. Here it is:

NRS 465.093 Placing, sending, transmitting or relaying wagers to another person prohibited under certain circumstances; penalty.

1. Except as otherwise provided in NRS 465.094, a person, alone or with others, shall not knowingly:

(a) From within this state, place, send, transmit or relay through a medium of communication a wager to another person or an establishment that is located within or outside of this state; or

(b) From outside of this state, place, send, transmit or relay through a medium of communication a wager to another person or an establishment that is located within this state.

2. A person who violates the provisions of this section is guilty of a misdemeanor.

(Added to NRS by 1997, 3319)

 

[Simmo!]

Forget the waffle.

Cherrypicking Nevada law will not wash.

Pay the 19 year old or nion kill the industry. I am easy either way.

Or put another way, you've broken the law once, so break it again Which begs the age old question, do two wrongs make a right?

 

[amandajm]

Prove the point. No more waffle please.

Casinos that abide by Nevada law are ok.
Any others that don't surely are not doing their due diligence according to the Meister right?

32red Restricted Territories
It is the responsibility of each individual to ensure that by joining 32Red they do not breach any local laws before registering. Please note that individuals residing in the following countries are not able to join the 32Red Casino or Multiplayer Poker Room, and play for real money.


# Gibraltar
# Hong Kong

I am easy to shut up. Just make sense of it all for the uninformed like me, as I remain unconvinced by what I see before me as fair.

 

[winbig]

Let's get the facts here.

1) She's underage
2) The casino didn't seem to care
3) She KNEW fully well that she shouldn't be gambling ANYWHERE. The rules were in the T&C. She tried (and succeeded for awhile) in circumventing these.
4) SHE ripped off the casino if you ask me. It was THEIR fault for not catching that she was only 19 beforehand. Therefore, she got to keep her previous winnings, and should NOT be paid one cent more than that, other than her current deposit(s) to "win" that $20k.
5) Don't give me crap about "Well, they have a sign that says 18+ on their website. Should they put a * next to it and have "18+ applies to every country besides USA"? Maybe so. But if anyone was to take anything online at face print *without* reading the fine print, they're just asking for trouble. Truth is, not every country is anal about gambling as is the USA. Sure you can go to war and DIE for your country (USA) at age 17 (with parent's permission), but yet you can't gamble till you're 21. But yet you can play the lottery when you're 18. How backwards and hypocritical is that?

 

[amandajm]

I think that goes for every player of any age from any jurisdiction, not just this 19 year old.

Is online gaming legal where you are Winbig? Do you gamble online too? I don't know the answers to these questions.

I get the overall feeling I should accept the word from a trusted source without question because they did good by me yesterday, or because I agree with them most of the time.

 

[suzecat]

Just for my own curiosity autumn12, I was wondering how you were able to purchase/play in pounds when you live in the US?

Autumn12 never responded to this question. So now I will get to the cheating aspect of this whole mess.

The casino requires players to play in the currency of the country they reside. Autumn12 lives in Nevada (USA) and should therefore be playing in USD. However, she admits to playing in British pounds. How can this be?

(ChristopherB I did my due diligence) and here is what Neteller says about it:

Please wait for a site operator to respond.
You are now chatting with 'Michael'
Michael: Welcome to our live chat service. How may we help you?
suzecat: Hi Michael, I have a question about what currency I can use. I live in the US.
suzecat: Can I purchase British pounds and use them at a online casino?
Michael: Before we proceed, may I ask your security question please?
Michael: What is your Mothers middle name?
suzecat: **********. I am asking because I have been reading at Casinomeister forum about a 19 year old who lives in Las Vegas that says she used Neteller to gamble online and deposited pounds instead of dollars.
suzecat: I thought when I signed up at Neteller that I had to use US dollars.
Michael: We cannot change the currency on your NETeller account. The only way would be to open a new account with a new email address and new currency.
suzecat: I do not want to change the currency on my account, I just wanted to find out if I, as a US citizen with a US bank account, can purchase British pounds and use them to gamble.
Michael: We[ll] the funds that would go into your NETeller account would be USD. If you find a merchant that will accept funds from a USD account and they are GBP than the conversion would be done for you at the time of the transfer.
suzecat: OK, so if a casino requires that you purchase/play in the same currency as the country where you live, then it would not be possible to use Neteller unless you were untruthful about your country of residence?
Michael: No, it would be based on your currency, not your country of residence, as anybody NETeller customer can choose USD, CAD, GBP, and EUR as there base currency to their NETeller account.
suzecat: Right, so I understand that Neteller would convert funds for you but they do not confirm an account holders' country of residence with a merchant?
Michael: That is correct, we do not give any information to the merchants as far as you personal NETeller information goes.
suzecat: Michael, is it OK for me to copy this chat session and share it with people at Casinomeister forum?
Michael: This may pose as a security risk as you have answered your security question with me and you have your account information in the chat.
suzecat: OK< if I edit out that before I share this information?
Michael: This is your decision to make, as you do agree to the terms of use when you register your account that sais you are responsible for all transactions made in your NETeller account.
suzecat: Yes and I will be very careful. Thank you for pointing out the security risk.
Michael: Is there anything else I can assist you with?
suzecat: No you have been very helpful. Thank you.
Michael: You're welcome. Thank you for choosing NETELLER!
Chat session has been terminated by the site operator.


The casino has also acknowledged that she was using foreign currency. The reason she gives is that pounds are worth more in bonus money.

Since she was required by casino rules to use USD she must have been untruthful about her country of residence in order to make the casino believe she was entitled to British pounds. I'd call that cheating (conspiracy to gain an unfair advantage).

My apologies to everyone who is shaking their head and thinking that I have gone off the deep end with this dead horse. Sorry, I just couldn't get this aspect of the thread off my mind.

 

[spearmaster]

She would have been required to produce ID to cash out - or at least should have. Other flags would surely also have shown that she was not in Nevada.

Though I agree that perhaps Autumn was taking advantage of bonuses by using the currency valued the highest, I actually don't see anything wrong with that at all. And I believe you'll find hundreds, if not thousands, of other players doing the same thing.

If a casino wants to limit the currency being used, they need to state this up front very clearly. Hiding this in the terms and conditions would be considered dubious, at least in my opinion.

amandajm - leave other casinos out of this discussion, please - if you want to start another thread elsewhere by all means do so. 32Red, as you can plainly see, is blocking play from entire COUNTRIES with their clause - which is way more than many other casinos do. If you make your point to them I'm sure they will more than welcome your suggestions - but don't be trying to hold them up to garbage from elsewhere.

 

[jpsartre]

Suzecat: As far as I know there is no problem choosing GBP as your preferred currency when signing up at a casino, even if you are a resident of USA. Some casinos enforce special rules about this (like, you must choose USD if you are american etc), but I've never had a problem choosing GBP even though I'm not in country where this is the currency. Also, there is no problem having a Neteller account in USD and using it to deposit at casinos where you are playing in a different currency. I do this all the time. So I don't see any reason to suppose that Autumn12 would have had to lie about her country of residence in order to play in GBP.

EDIT: Maybe I'm just not getting your point, but what do you mean by this question: 'OK, so if a casino requires that you purchase/play in the same currency as the country where you live, then it would not be possible to use Neteller unless you were untruthful about your country of residence?'

 

[amandajm]

Bust my balls G2b, go ahead. Be right though is preferable no? I'm easy either way.

There are casinos accepting deposits from barred jurisdictions left right and centre. Including 32red.

To rogue Grand Prive, on the basis they did not do their due diligence re jurisdictional gaming laws is the Meister's least finest moment, but you want to bust my balls and tell me about garbage?

Unrevocable FACT - Ecogra said they cannot get a list together of barred jurisdictional laws and stay up to date, but they are sweet as, and Grand Prive are rogue for lack of due diligence?

This ruling needs a serious rethink from all parties Spearmaster and I expect and trust you and many others to lead the call, not me.

 

[spearmaster]

The reason I'm roasting your chestnuts is because your posts are attempting to do damage to another operator for no realistic reason other than you are unwilling to tell them yourself.

Furthermore, you have no proof that they are accepting wagers from Nevada - you are just saying so because it does not explicitly say so otherwise on their website.

Does that mean I can enter your home any time unless you have a sign outside specifically forbidding my entry?

No more of this part of the discussion in here. Start a new thread if you like. But any more in here unrelated to the issue at hand will earn you a vacation.

 

[bb1webs]

:notworthy Mr Spear:

I just thought I'd toss my 2cents into the ring by stating that while I must admit I didn't ever read the casino's T&Cs whether or not I must use my country's currency ...

I surely have thought it was my choice of what currency I chose to play because it asks you ...

and to further that point I would note that I play in poker rooms every day where the buy in is in pounds and they simply convert it over for me.

so following that line of thinking I'd surely not have guessed it was breaking any rules to choose to gamble in pounds rather than dollars. Furthermore it wouldn't matter with the exception for the amount of bonus chips you'd gain but keep in mind that its not actually that much of an extra bonus if you consider that it won't buy you any more spins on the major millions (assuming major millions has a pounds amount it pays out because I don't know how that works) but anyway if a spin costing a pound = $2.00 or a spin in dollars costs $1: well its all relative isn't it?

not sure that was said in the best way but I think it has merit. ... if not I'm sure Spear will correct me.

... great to see you Bud. (so to speak).

 

[amandajm]

Spear.
Attempting to damage 32red by comparance? You know better.

Earn a vacation?

For daring to disagree and for Link Outdated / Removed?

This is an ongoing discussion and I put it to you, that you are now being selective re 1 post out of 10/0/0.

I told you it is not possible to rogue an ecogra casino without rogueing ecogra, now you want to pull rank today?

I protested your support of ecogra personally, now you want to bar me because I turned out to be right.

Never thought i'd see the day Spear. Not from the self-confessed-maverick-you.

 

[spearmaster]

amandajm -

I asked you to start a new thread. I didn't say you could not bring up the issue - I did say that it does not belong in this discussion.

I'll ask you one last time - if you want to talk about different casinos and their terms (and btw 32Red is NOT eCOGRA-certified) then do it in another thread - not in this one.

Let's keep this issue on track - thank you for your cooperation.

BB-

Hey bud... LOL... long time no "speak/see".

I agree - I don't think the actual currency in use should be an issue - as you can see I did say that I can't see anything wrong with that

You're also right about the progressives - the payout is in whatever currency you play in, and the risk ratio is exactly the same. At least with MGS and PT if I am not mistaken...

 

[Vesuvio]

To rogue Grand Prive, on the basis they did not do their due diligence re jurisdictional gaming laws is the Meister's least finest moment, but you want to bust my balls and tell me about garbage?

Just two points:

1) Grand Prive wouldn't have been rogued if it was only for not doing due diligence, as you're right that few casinos even approach that. They were rogued for using it as a neat trick to pocket 20k they had no right to.

2) Grand Prive have deserved rogueing for a very long time based on their general conduct. It's a bit like Al Capone being done for tax evasion

 

[soflat]

Spear.

I told you it is not possible to rogue an ecogra casino without rogueing ecogra, now you want to pull rank today?

I protested your support of ecogra personally, now you want to bar me because I turned out to be right.

That's just poor logic. They (Casinomeister and ecogra) have different criteria. If they didn't, then what would be the point?

Personally, I don't think eCogra is that great anymore, but they do serve a limited purpose.

 

[caruso]

Just for my own curiosity autumn12, I was wondering how you were able to purchase/play in pounds when you live in the US?…Autumn12 never responded to this question. So now I will get to the cheating aspect of this whole mess.

Did you happen to miss the answer she gave DIRECTLY following your question back then?

Autumn12, I guess you did not read/understand the general terms and conditions on the Bella Vegas website, to wit: "Players residing in the United States of America may only wager in US dollar."

When I played there they did not have a term that Pounds are not allowed for US players. They added it after I played , I think couple of months after.

Link to the post for anyone else suffering from Selective Memory Syndrome:

Link Outdated / Removed

Let's take a look at Suzecat's chat - manifestly designed to elicit responses about this player's "illegal" transfers which she spectacularly failed to elicit:

Question: "I just wanted to find out if I, as a US citizen with a US bank account, can purchase British pounds and use them to gamble."

Answer: "We[ll] the funds that would go into your NETeller account would be USD. If you find a merchant that will accept funds from a USD account and they are GBP than the conversion would be done for you at the time of the transfer."

So yes – you can. We all know that anyway. BFD.

Question: "OK, so if a casino requires that you purchase/play in the same currency as the country where you live, then it would not be possible to use Neteller unless you were untruthful about your country of residence?"

Where did that come from?? The casino does NO such thing, and nothing in the Neteller rep’s answer suggested any such thing. All he said was that the conversion would be done at the time of transfer. Exactly WHERE in his response did you deduce "so, if a casino requires that you purchase/play in the same currency as the country where you live…"?

Obvious answer: "No, it would be based on your currency, not your country of residence, as any NETeller customer can choose USD, CAD, GBP, and EUR as there base currency to their NETeller account."

Question: "Right, so I understand that Neteller would convert funds for you but they do not confirm an account holders' country of residence with a merchant?"

Why would they?? Since when was it down to Neteller to tell a Costa Rican casino that Caruso, playing in USD, is from England??

Obvious answer: "That is correct, we do not give any information to the merchants as far as you personal NETeller information goes."

Well duuuuuh, big surprise there.

Dramatic finale: "Michael, is it OK for me to copy this chat session and share it with people at Casinomeister forum?"

Yeah, I mean we learned a lot there, didn’t we? We learned that Neteller doesn't reveal to the casino details of their (Neteller) customers' accounts. Pretty important to get Neteller's express permission before posting THAT chat wasn't it? I mean, countries might fall now. Wars might start.

Why didn’t you just ask Michael if he eats corn flakes for breakfast? We’d have had a more meaningful insight. LMAO.

Just to back up what has already been said anyway: casinos WANT players playing in GBP – that's why the offer multiple currencies. GBP are bigger than USD, so represent a bigger win rate for the casino. Clearly, they also represent a bigger win rate for the bonus hunter – which is the downside from the casinos' perspective.

Oh, and now I come to think of it, tell me this Suzecat: since in your opinion "if a casino requires that you purchase/play in the same currency as the country where you live, then it would not be possible to use Neteller unless you were untruthful about your country of residence?"

…and since I personally use Neteller to play is US dollars as a UK citizen, Neteller is actually condoning my illegal account operation. Correct?

Think carefully before answering, because you might not be best advised to state that both myself and Neteller are basically frauds.

Maybe I'm just not getting your point, but what do you mean by this question: 'OK, so if a casino requires that you purchase/play in the same currency as the country where you live, then it would not be possible to use Neteller unless you were untruthful about your country of residence?'

Yeah, run this one by us, Suzecat.

 

[Pinababy69]

I give up...you are just f**ing rude Caruso. Was it really necessary to post that long a post picking apart every single word she said? And accuse any or all of us who don't agree with your point of view on everything of suffering from Selective Memory Syndrome? WTF is wrong with you that you can't just make your posts in a civil manner, and why do you have to talk down to anyone who doesn't agree with you? I've even seen you do it to Bryan, and to many others here. What is it that's so special about you that you think you can talk to people the way you do? Learn some tact, learn some diplomacy and for Christ's sakes learn some people skills...people may actually take you seriously. I've said it before, your motives are pure and I'm sure you have some great ideas, but man, this sarcasm and negativity and better than everyone else attitude......it's getting you absolutely nowhere, and real fast. All you'll succeed in doing is alienating alot of people who read your posts...and if you ever hope to work in this industry as a mediator, you'd better lose the attitude. If I were a casino operator and researched your style, I'd run for the hills as fast as I could. Not that you care two shits what myself or anyone else thinks, but I feel better for having said it. That post of yours above mine was totally uncalled for and rude.

 

[soflat]

It was kind of rude, because I don't think Suzecat knew much about playing in different currencies (how easy it is, and that it is no big deal at many casinos, etc).

 

[Pinababy69]

It was kind of rude, because I don't think Suzecat knew much about playing in different currencies (how easy it is, and that it is no big deal at many casinos, etc).

That was my point exactly Soflat...there is no need to ridicule someone and pick apart in detail the way he did. Misinformed or not, she meant well, and that was uncalled for.

 

[silcnlayc]

Pinababy69 said: but I feel better for having said it

BREATH......in...out...in...out......now...relax one toe and work it to the ankle..wiggle the ankle and work it to the knee...you get the idea, yes?

Hoping you feel even better soon!

 

[Pinababy69]

Maybe some meditation or yoga Silc?

 

[spearmaster]

I tried the deep breath technique myself yesterday - it's been a long two weeks here and my body was stiff as a board from all the tension and headaches.

So I can vouch for the deep breath technique - it works.

(of course, the 4 Tylenol I took before going to bed might've helped as well!)

 

[The Dude]

...To rogue Grand Prive, on the basis they did not do their due diligence re jurisdictional gaming laws is the Meister's least finest moment, but you want to bust my balls and tell me about garbage?

Apparently you didn't bother to read much about what I wrote about why they ended up in the rogue section.

And if you have a problem with what I do, how about say it to my face - or email me your dissapointment - don't start making obscure cryptic postings. And like Spear said, if you feel you want to go off on some tangent unrelated to this topic, start another thread. Do not dis the moderators, or you'll find yourself out on the street looking up at the stars.

That's just poor logic. They (Casinomeister and ecogra) have different criteria. If they didn't, then what would be the point?

Thank you. We are different enties that have different functions. Period. amandajm, if you want to start your anti-eCOGRA crusade over here, you are in the wrong place, my man. You are free to take that to your website.

Caruso - one more thoughtless post like that i.e. rude, you're out of here. Sorry, but you have been warned way beyond enough concerning your writing style. If you cannot show consideration towards your fellow members here, you need to find another home.

Now everyone have a nice day

 

[suzecat]

No Doubt

In over 10+ years of onling gaming I have never confronted the issue of using foreign currency to gain an unfair advantage. I live in the US, if a casino tells me to use my resident currency, then that's what I do. Never thought "well, how can I get around that to get some extra bonus chips?" So I am better versed on that aspect of the industry and find yet another reason to view this forum as an incredibly useful tool. Kudos to you CM for providing it to us.

I have no doubt why a casino's T&Cs read like the Library of Congress. Evidently there are some people whose existence is predicated on how much they can screw with these same T&Cs to get some [undeserved] cash. Online gambling is supposed to be FUN..........why do some people get so involved you'd think their life was dependant on it?

OK, soapbox fell over.......time to go..........

 

[spearmaster]

The following chart illustrates the three categories of online casinos, at least from my experience.

Note that two of the paths lead to becoming a Rogue.

 

[silcnlayc]

Purty picture !

 

[spearmaster]

I might also point out that this graph can be interpreted differently...

Replace "recommended" with "winner" and "rogue" with "loser".

Then replace "honest" with "cautious" and "dishonest" with "reckless".

Then, in your mind, replace "online casino" with "player".

 

[thelawnet]

I give up...you are just f**ing rude Caruso. Was it really necessary to post that long a post picking apart every single word she said?

To be fair she did jump right in blatantly accuse someone of fraud, cheating, conspiracy and lying about where she lived, when as far as I can tell from the start of this thread it has been clear that the player gave her address as Las Vegas, and you can bet every dollar that the player won that if there had been any issue of fraud or lying that the casino could have used against the player they would have done so.

I think pre-emptively accusing somebody of fraud is a lot 'f***ing ruder' than replying to a post pointing out that it is wrong as caruso did....

Maybe I'm wrong....

 

[Let_It_Ride]

well said

To be fair she did jump right in blatantly accuse someone of fraud, cheating, conspiracy and lying about where she lived, when as far as I can tell from the start of this thread it has been clear that the player gave her address as Las Vegas, and you can bet every dollar that the player won that if there had been any issue of fraud or lying that the casino could have used against the player they would have done so.

I think pre-emptively accusing somebody of fraud is a lot 'f***ing ruder' than replying to a post pointing out that it is wrong as caruso did....

Maybe I'm wrong....

IMO not wrong at all

so thank you for you post, as some of the comments on here have been bugging me all day, but I just couldn't find the words to express myself.

Maybe caruso cld have been more diplomatic but it was not fair he was the only one to get his wrists slapped, suzecat was out of order as well.

 

[suzecat]

IMO not wrong at all

so thank you for you post, as some of the comments on here have been bugging me all day, but I just couldn't find the words to express myself.

Maybe caruso cld have been more diplomatic but it was not fair he was the only one to get his wrists slapped, suzecat was out of order as well.

It must be "fried suzecat" day -- and I didn't get the memo!

Seriously folks, I stepped up to the plate (once it was pointed out that many players use the "pound edge") and admitted my lack in this area. So here are mea culpas for where they are due and thanks to the others.

 

[Pinababy69]

Seriously folks, I stepped up to the plate (once it was pointed out that many players use the "pound edge") and admitted my lack in this area. So here are mea culpas for where they are due and thanks to the others.

And therein lies the difference. My problem is not with information or opinions presented, it's with the presentation itself. Anyway, agree to disagree on my behalf. And I'm done.

 

[Johnny Empire]

Just for information, Lake Palace paid me out a little under $1k in 3 days. Req'd withdrawal Sunday, paid Tuesday.

I am over 21 though.

 

[caruso]

Good post, Vesuvio. Also Thelawnet's remarks - funny how you can seek to blacken a player who has in fact committed no wrong in the alleged department without ANY reprisal, but forecefully and rightly challenge / ridicule the blackening attempt and you practically consign yourself to the slag heap. Ha.

Whatever.

Back on topic. This is eCOGRA's stance on the matter (posted here at their behest):

1. It is an isolated incident, that happened more than 9 months ago;

2. It is a known fact in this industry that no foolproof system exists to identify underage gamblers, and it becomes even more complex when trying to match players in the 18-21 group against the laws of hundreds of countries and states;

3. When the player was identified, the operator followed eCOGRA's instructions on how to settle the player (I've always said that I believe the operator may have paid the player if this was our advice). The action they followed is also in accordance with the UK Gambling Commission's proposed license conditions and codes, which does not require contributions to third parties;

4. Since identifying this player, we are able to confirm that this operator has tightened its controls around underage gambling; and

5. PwC performed an investigative compliance review on this operator in October 2005, and no further evidence of registered underage gamblers was found.

If there were multiple instances of underage players and a failure to address this, then I have absolutely no doubt that they would lose their seal. But to withdraw it based on something that could conceivably happen at any reputable operator, is unfair and unreasonable.

My comments:

1) I see no reason to not take eCOGRA's word on this.

2) Agreed.

However, since Andrew mentions it, there is a side issue here of Nevada law: why are Microgaming casinos accepting signups from players from states where online gambling is illegal?

It seems to me you cannot break one law, but you can break another - and it will be entirely at the casino's descretion which will be enforced - dependent on the nature of your deposting / withdrawing? I will take a guess that Mr. Slots Kanot Kashout from Nevada will never be found to be breaking laws, while Miss Twen Ti Kay, also from Nevada but only 19, will find herself suprisingly caught up.

Microgaming casinos cannot choose which laws they enforce. Either they enforce ALL laws or NO laws - not those that suit them.

3) Agreed.

But why did the casino even contact eCOGRA? This is what should have happened:

"Dear Miss 20K.

It has come to our attention, after performing routine security checks following your large cashout, that as a Nevada resident you are technically underage. Regretfully, we are at this point obliged to close all your accounts with the Grand Prive Casino Group. Your £13,000 GPB cashout will be processed and sent to you shortly."

What actually happened? The casino went crying to eCOGRA, looking for them to get them off the hook and out of a big payment (that's my interpretation, not eCOGRA's). eCOGRA were admittedly in a tricky position, and had to recommend the casino not pay.

So rather than everyone being happy, now the casino is rogued by a reputable authority, eCOGRA take a load of understandable flack, the anti-gambling hardonites in the US admin have cannon fodder for their campaign, and NOBODY is happy.

All because Bella Vegas went crying to eCOGRA and didn't just handle the matter internally and properly and PAY THE GIRL.

4) Fair enough. No reason to doubt this.

5) Aside from the fact I don't invest much credibility in PWC, fair enough.

I understand eCOGRA's position on this. I don't understand or agree on eCOGRA's positions on everything by any means, but on this I do.

The casino should have just PAID the girl and have done. Instead, rather than cough up on a decent sized debt they decided to create as much trouble as they possibly could.

At the end of the day, they've saved themselves 20K.

BFD.

 

[caruso]

there is a side issue here of Nevada law: why are Microgaming casinos accepting signups from players from states where online gambling is illegal? It seems to me you cannot break one law, but you can break another...

Just to clarify:

and it becomes even more complex when trying to match players in the 18-21 group against the laws of hundreds of countries and states.

Problems in this department acknowledged.

 

[jetset]

The message here as I see it is that identified underage players (either under 18 in general or in terms of specific T&Cs) are not going to get paid by any responsible and professional casino management, and eCOGRA should never be seen to be encouraging such a course as a responsible body.

Underage chancers are a growing menace and there are very good and obvious reasons for excluding them wherever possible.

I believe there were contributory factors at play here which certainly do not redound to the casino's credit in any way, but the bottom line is that this player registered when she was underage in terms of the T&Cs in force at the time.

We can argue about this until the cows come home (and I for one don't have the time to constantly revisit the topic) but the fact remains that this player took a chance, she was caught (eventually) and she is clearly not going to be paid.

Prolonging these arguments that have been combed over ad nauseum is not going to change that, or the opinions of those involved.

The debate over the other issues and inconsistencies surrounding this incident will be taking place in management meetings at various companies, I'm pretty sure. Casino managements are not as dishonest, uncaring or incompetent as some players would like to believe. Hopefully something positive will come out of that for the future.

Your oblique shot at our host here is unwarranted in my view. Your aggressive response to Suzecat's post pushed the limit without personal provocation and you were shown the warning flag again by the 'Meister.

Get over it.

 

[GrandMaster]

Just to clarify:

and it becomes even more complex when trying to match players in the 18-21 group against the laws of hundreds of countries and states.

Problems in this department acknowledged.

It can be even more complicated. The legal age for gambling in Malta for Maltese citizens is 25, for foreigners 18.

 

[caruso]

Prolonging these arguments that have been combed over ad nauseum is not going to change that, or the opinions of those involved.

Did you even read what I said?

This is eCOGRA's stance on the matter (posted here at their behest):

Anyway, these are all relevant, current matters. They will be "prolonged" as long as they remain discussion-worthy.

 

[spearmaster]

Did you even read what I said?

Anyway, these are all relevant, current matters. They will be "prolonged" as long as they remain discussion-worthy.

Discussion is worthy. Repetitive posts which add nothing to the thread are not worthy. Not saying yours was repetitive - just making a point.

eCOGRA has stated their viewpoint. Not all of us necessarily agree with it.

Got something new to bring to the table - by all means do so. But please, let's not beat a dead horse any more than necessary.

I urge people to vote with their feet - take your business elsewhere, if you do not believe you will get a fair shake from Grand Prive. It is quite sad that they have come to this - but if you saw my graph earlier in this thread, it is pretty clear - at least in my opinion - which category they fall into.

 

[jetset]

Spear said: "Got something new to bring to the table - by all means do so. But please, let's not beat a dead horse any more than necessary."

I couldn't agree more, and especially if exchanges can be kept at a civil level and relatively free of histrionics.

Here's another bit of sound advice from Spear; don't forget that players hold the power of individual choice:

"....take your business elsewhere, if you do not believe you will get a fair shake from Grand Prive."

 

[caruso]

Got something new to bring to the table - by all means do so. But please, let's not beat a dead horse any more than necessary.

I was asked to post the section I posted in quotes, or at least make the facts known. Quoting directly the relevant bit seemed the best way.

I said I would.

I did.

 

[jetset]

I was asked to post the section I posted in quotes, or at least make the facts known. Quoting directly the relevant bit seemed the best way.

I said I would.

I did.

Why the "mad" icon this time?

I interpreted the moderator's gentle hint about repetitive posting of already exhaustively examined detail and opinion as a very general observation that actually (if you take the trouble to read it) did not specifically refer to you.

I quote:

"Repetitive posts which add nothing to the thread are not worthy. Not saying yours was repetitive - just making a point."

 

[The Dude]

Okay, after 16 pages of discussion, this thread took a turn into a new topic which I've separated from this one: Foreign Currency Bonus Discussion which I've created here:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/foreign-currency-bonus-discussion.11828/

Just trying to keep things organized

If you want to continue that discussion - by all means do so. But please reserve this thread for the Grand Prive underage player issue. Thanks!

 

[Linus]

The message here as I see it is that identified underage players (either under 18 in general or in terms of specific T&Cs) are not going to get paid by any responsible and professional casino management, and eCOGRA should never be seen to be encouraging such a course as a responsible body.

Wouldn't a better message involve not accepting an underaged player's wagers in the first place? Rather than simply taking her money when she wins?

Underage chancers are a growing menace and there are very good and obvious reasons for excluding them wherever possible.

I'm not sure underaged chancers are a menace to casinos, so much as casinos are a menace to them. At least that's the way the public looks at it. They're worried about casinos taking advantage of young people, not the other way around.

This would be a good example of what they're worried about.

I believe there were contributory factors at play here which certainly do not redound to the casino's credit in any way, but the bottom line is that this player registered when she was underage in terms of the T&Cs in force at the time.

That may be true, but she was in violation of the casino's T&Cs anyway, whether she was 19, or 119. If BellaVegas can seize Autumn's winnings, they can seize the winnings of any American who plays there.

She was, on the other hand, over 18. And this casino chooses to market itself to eighteen year olds. And, of course, she told the casino her true age - 19 - when she registered.

We can argue about this until the cows come home (and I for one don't have the time to constantly revisit the topic) but the fact remains that this player took a chance, she was caught (eventually) and she is clearly not going to be paid.

If it was clear she was not going to be paid, she wouldn't have played there.

Prolonging these arguments that have been combed over ad nauseum is not going to change that, or the opinions of those involved.

Whether anyone's mind will be changed, depends on the person's mind.

The debate over the other issues and inconsistencies surrounding this incident will be taking place in management meetings at various companies, I'm pretty sure.

I suspect the main issue in their debates will be whether or not they can get away with it. In other words, whether players will put up with casinos that will accept their wagers when they lose, but deny them when they win.

As long as players are willing to put up with it, the debate can only go one way.

Casino managements are not as dishonest, uncaring or incompetent as some players would like to believe. Hopefully something positive will come out of that for the future.

I have no doubt there's a range of people in the gambling business, just like every business. That's why it's so important that honest companies get rewarded, and dishonest ones get punished.

Your oblique shot at our host here is unwarranted in my view. Your aggressive response to Suzecat's post pushed the limit without personal provocation and you were shown the warning flag again by the 'Meister.

Get over it.

CasinoMeister has the right to moderate his board anyway he sees fit. How he chooses to use that power will determine whether the gambling community continues to take this site seriously as a "watchdog" site.

 

[jetset]

"Got something new to bring to the table - by all means do so. But please, let's not beat a dead horse any more than necessary." Spear - just yesterday.

So I'm not about to trawl back and forth over this ground yet again, Linus save to comment on your final paragraph, which I feel was unnecessary.

QUOTE: CasinoMeister has the right to moderate his board anyway he sees fit. How he chooses to use that power will determine whether the gambling community continues to take this site seriously as a "watchdog" site. UNQUOTE

This is in my view the best and fairest online casino and poker portal, watchdog, forum and information site in the business. That's a personal view after some years as a member here which in my experience is also held by many others on both sides of the player - casino divide.

One of the reasons for this is the huge amount of balanced work that the owner does for both sides, and the respect that his personal integrity and general sense of easy-going fairness generates.

So when you get flagged, generally you deserve it and need to back off a little.

That being the case, please do not imply that his conduct is anything less than the above in this matter, and that this might in some way endanger the regard in which his site is held.

That I don't buy. This site has been around for a long time by industry standards, and it's achieved more good things than most. I predict it will continue to enjoy wide support.

In the absence of anything new being presented in this thread, I am now going to take my own advice and move on.