Bellavegas(Microgaming) won't pay 20K

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autumn12

Dormant account
Joined
Aug 29, 2005
Location
Las Vegas, NV USA
I was 19 when I registered at Bellavegas, I registered only correct info including my date of birth.

I have been playing there for couple of month and during that time I deposited17 deposit and made 4 cashouts.

3 of the cashout were processed, one of them was for more than $5000.

Once I cashed in my 4th cashout of around 20,000 they came with a strange reason not to pay, they brought my age as an issue.

They told me I am underage. I responded that they have the symbol of 18+ at their home page and also the fact the terms mentioned 18 as the minimum age at Bellavegas.

They replied there is also a sentence that says that if in your jurisdiction the rule is different then this is to determine.

Bellavegas always mentioned and to Ecogra also that they protect and accept the laws in the USA and that is why they void my winings while it is not legal to gamble from Nevada at all.

There are 8 Stated that online gambling is illegal at them and Bellavegas accept players from all over the USA.


Bellavegas accepted me as a player at the registration, bellavegas accepted 17 deposit and processed 3 cashout which one of them was big.

Bellavegas knew I am 19 and didn't say a word.


The casinomeister does not agree with me(I have already pitch a bitch) but I think it is not too late to convince him that he is at the wrong side here.

It is obvious that Bellavegas used a term which usually every casino put to cover themselves against a lawsuit against them, just not to pay my winnings


By paying the 3 cashout which one of them was for substantial amount they accepted me as a player there.


The internet casinos are devided into two types, 21+ and 18+.

When I tried to register at Goldenriviera or Goldenreef the software would not let me do so, they also use Microgaming.

They can set their software not to accept players from Nevada and they did not do so, how can they claim they protect the laws in the State ?


How can they not pay me ?

How can the casinomeister support the casino side ?

Something here is wrong or maybe I don't understand on online gambling and what a fair deal is at all.
 

soflat

Dormant Account
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Location
Florida
I think you are all wrong.

But mostly the casino. They should never ever allow underage gambling. If you put your true birthdate and state when signing up and they accepted your play, that is disgraceful.

eCogra and the Kahnawakes accept casinos with underage players?

The casinos are coming out with cartoon character slots and mascots, and if they are accepting underage people play, they really look like predators.
 

caruso

Banned User - repetitive violations of 1.6 - troll
Joined
Jan 16, 2002
Location
England
For anyone who missed it, this has been discussed at length at WOL:

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It's my opinion, and also that of webmasters I rate, that this player should at the very least be given a 50 / 50 payment of her winnings. She did sign up underage according to the Vegas Laws, but the casino accepted fully SEVENTEEN deposits and THREE winnings payouts until she hit a big one...then it was sorry, you're SOL and here's your deposits back.

She's out £10,000 GBP. She is entitled to a 50/50 split at the very least, and a payment of £5000 GBP.

It's also worth noting that online gambling is ILLEGAL in Nevada - yet Microgaming casinos continue to offer "Nevada" as an available state in the signup process. Make of that what you will - I shan't be risking a tarring and feathering here by drawing any conclusions.
 

soflat

Dormant Account
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Location
Florida
If this player snuck into a Las Vegas casino and won, she would NOT get paid.

In this case she she basically showed her ID at the door and the casino looked the other way.

But you can't expect CM to be advocating for underage gamblers.

I think the casino should reimburse the gambler's money and pay some sort of fine or something.
 

Casinomeister

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Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
This topic has been beaten to death at WOL, and again with correspondence between me and my contacts. I have made a suggestion to the casino on how to handle this. Hopefully they will consider what I have recommended.

In the meantime, the player is wrong - and she knew it. She contacted me in August stating that she felt she was owed her winnings because the server is where the jurisdiction should be determined - not the player's location. This is illogical. And the casino's terms and conditions - like most - state that the players are required to know whether or not they they are able to gamble legally in their jurisdiction.

She lives in Nevada, and she knows she's not allowed in a casino.

If this situation happened at a casino in Vegas, she would have been tossed out on the street, perhaps even arrested. I feel she's lucky to get her deposits back. That would have never happened off line.

Like I mentioned, I have made some suggestions on how to have some sort of resolution. I'm waiting for word back on this. I'd recommend that everyone keep this thread mellow. Thanks!
 

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
Agreed on all points CM, especially about this whole topic having been beaten to death already. And while I have no love for the Grand Prive group at present, I can't say that I TOTALLY disagree with them. IMO, both sides were in the wrong here, and it's just a tough situation. I hope that they take your suggestions seriously, personally if I never see this one mentioned again, that would be just fine by me.
 

UKDafoe

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Jan 5, 2005
Location
US/UK
The US Justice Department considers all internet gambling to be illegal. Why does Grand Prive care about laws regarding age in the United States when the same legal system essentially prohibits all internet gambling at any age?
 

spearmaster

RIP Ted
Joined
Jan 12, 2001
Location
Heaven
UKDafoe said:
The US Justice Department considers all internet gambling to be illegal. Why does Grand Prive care about laws regarding age in the United States when the same legal system essentially prohibits all internet gambling at any age?

Because it's technically not the same legal system - the federal system currently has no jurisdiction over gambling, allowing each state to assert its own laws. The only law in the federal system which governs online betting - not gambling - is the Wire Act, and this has already been held to apply only to sports betting by at least one federal court in Louisiana.

Not wishing to rehash what has been discussed on the other forum, I'll just state my opinion briefly, which is that both sides share the blame, and that the operator needs to make a move towards meeting halfway at the very least because its share of the blame is arguably more than that of the player's.
 

Casinomeister

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Staff member
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UKDafoe said:
The US Justice Department considers all internet gambling to be illegal. Why does Grand Prive care about laws regarding age in the United States when the same legal system essentially prohibits all internet gambling at any age?
If it's illegal, why is this allowed? :D
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Happy betting!!
 

autumn12

Dormant account
Joined
Aug 29, 2005
Location
Las Vegas, NV USA
Everyone who understand something in onling gambling knows that this kind of behaviour from an online casino is totally not acceptible.

If the casino is the wrong side why I have to be punshied for this.

If the casino is in the wrong and I am in the wrong, the casino should be fined and I should be fined, but the winnings should be paid.


The casino accepted players from Nevada and still accepting them, what will happen if again a player will win there and they don't pay, will you also say that the player is in the wrong and the casino is in the wrong and that is it ??



Also, the casino decided to be the king of the world supporting laws, what happened to them ??? Are they really law supporters ?


It reminds me an offer I got in the email stating Tax Free winnings this weekend and in their terms it says that you have to pay Tax if the law at your country state so. I magine a player won and have not paid Tax and then the casino refuse to pay him anymore of their winnings because they support the law in the Country this guy played from.


This is exactly the same, when it come to the point they have to pay, they all of a sudden no better than anyone what are the rules in Nevada ?


What if I played from the Indian jurisdiction in Nevada ?

The IP I played from shows Nevada ? In Nevada there are areas that 18 is the minimum age of play.


Supporting the casino in this case is a totally mistake .

You can see also on the winneronline.com that most users support my side.
 

autumn12

Dormant account
Joined
Aug 29, 2005
Location
Las Vegas, NV USA
and for everyone who is sick to hear about this case, believe you feel much more sick when someone made fun of you and didn't pay you $20,000 he owes you.

Until this case will be resolved, no matter how many supprter I am going to have I wil make sure it will be on first page everywhere I can.
 

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
autumn12 said:
and for everyone who is sick to hear about this case, believe you feel much more sick when someone made fun of you and didn't pay you $20,000 he owes you.

Until this case will be resolved, no matter how many supprter I am going to have I wil make sure it will be on first page everywhere I can.

I wasn't in any way, shape or form making fun of you.....simply stating that this issue has been hashed and rehashed many times, and at the end of the day, all the public posts in the world are not going to change things. Your best recourse is to hang tight and see what Bryan can work out for you, if anything. Just some well-meaning advice.
 

autumn12

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Joined
Aug 29, 2005
Location
Las Vegas, NV USA
As I said I still believe that I can convince or let other convince Bryan that what they did is actually not right if not more than that.

They took advantage of me, they knew my age when they processed the $5000, the software knew my age even before that.

If I won't convince Bryan and still he will sort any kind of resolution , I will be happy and thankful too.
 

silcnlayc

Just one more spin pleez!
PABaccred
PABnonaccred
Joined
Sep 20, 2005
Location
Left Hungary
If the casino is in the wrong and I am in the wrong, the casino should be fined and I should be fined, but the winnings should be paid.

No where would you ever be paid for something done illegally. You would be fined and so would the casino and any and all so called "winnings" would be a moot point and/or confiscated or made immaterial to the fact that it was achieved in an illegal way.

Hence, you have NO WINNINGS as per the state you are in and the casino you have played at sad to say.
 

soflat

Dormant Account
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Location
Florida
If you are in Nevada, then why don't you just go to a local casino and play? Why bother with online play where you might not get paid?
 

suzecat

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Joined
Sep 18, 2004
Location
California
soflat said:
If you are in Nevada, then why don't you just go to a local casino and play? Why bother with online play where you might not get paid?

Soflat: the legal age for gambling in Las Vegas is 21 and picture ID is required for proof. The LV casinos are pretty anal about this law and underage gamblers will be promptly escorted off the property.


Autumn, I feel for you, really. I can image you had lots of plans for the $20K that cannot now materialize. However, since I don't rule the world, you are going to have to abide by the law of the land, Las Vegas, and accept that the casino can rightfully stiff you.

Posters above have pointed out that federal law does not specifically address online gambling legality. Therefore, in this case, the laws of the State where the player resides are controlling.

No one is going to argue that gambling online is a crap shoot. If you are underage you may fall under the radar for a time, but should you hit a big win, well...............if you have given them a way out, they will probably take it.

Bryan routinely juxtapositions the casinos interests with the players' interests. I am in agreement with his take on this matter and hope the player will eventually come to terms with their own culpability. (I can hear my law professor saying (over and over) that ignorance of the law is not a viable defense.)
 

paul02085

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 29, 2002
Location
USA
IMO this is nothing but a ripoff by the casino.

There is no way in h.ll they would call this person if she had lost $20k and said hey you arent supposed to play here, you are not of age, sorry we just realized it, so we are going to give you your $20k back and close your account.

Painting the casino as just upholding the Nevada laws is laughable IMO. Come on now. Does anyone really believe that?

The casino execs are probably sitting there laughing saying can you believe that bs about underage worked, lol.
 

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
Casinomeister said:
Like I mentioned, I have made some suggestions on how to have some sort of resolution. I'm waiting for word back on this. I'd recommend that everyone keep this thread mellow. Thanks!

I don't see how slamming the casino is going to help anyone. Grand Prive have already shown that public posts have little or no effect on them....*heavy sigh*
 

suzecat

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Joined
Sep 18, 2004
Location
California
paul02085 said:
IMO this is nothing but a ripoff by the casino.

There is no way in h.ll they would call this person if she had lost $20k and said hey you arent supposed to play here, you are not of age, sorry we just realized it, so we are going to give you your $20k back and close your account.

Painting the casino as just upholding the Nevada laws is laughable IMO. Come on now. Does anyone really believe that?

The casino execs are probably sitting there laughing saying can you believe that bs about underage worked, lol.

I would say, if anything, the casino execs are smiling about the workings of human nature. If I needed to venture a guess, it would be that the paid winnings have all been deposited back to the casino. Once the player hit the $20k win, the underage card was pulled out and played. Win/win for the casino; lose/lose for the player. Gotta love the name: gambling. So why give them the out?
 

caruso

Banned User - repetitive violations of 1.6 - troll
Joined
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Location
England
paul02085 said:
IMO this is nothing but a ripoff by the casino.

There is no way in hell they would call this person if she had lost $20k and said hey you arent supposed to play here, you are not of age, sorry we just realized it, so we are going to give you your $20k back and close your account.

Painting the casino as just upholding the Nevada laws is laughable IMO. Come on now. Does anyone really believe that?

The casino execs are probably sitting there laughing saying can you believe that bs about underage worked, lol.

A-frigging-men, my friend.

Does anyone really believe that? LOL, no - they don't. What makes me laugh though is they probably actually think people DO believe it. Yes, we really are all THAT dumb. We actually believe they missed seventeen deposit and three cashouts, then with spectacular coincidence caught it just when she hit big. Yes: we really are all THAT dumb. :)
 

Casinomeister

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caruso said:
A-frigging-men, my friend.

Does anyone really believe that? LOL, no - they don't. What makes me laugh though is they probably actually think people DO believe it. Yes, we really are all THAT dumb. We actually believe they missed seventeen deposit and three cashouts, then with spectacular coincidence caught it just when she hit big. Yes: we really are all THAT dumb. :)
I don't appreciate being called dumb in my own forum. If you feel that this is the way to handle this situation, take a hike Caruso - don't piss me off.

It has been made perfectly clear a number of times how this occured - I'm not going to invest a lot of time in rehashing what was said at WOL. The fact of the matter is:

The player signed up and was allowed to play.
The player won small amounts and was paid.
The player ended up winning a large amount and the account was audited per standard operating procedures.
During the audit it was discovered that she was under 21 in a juridiction that requires one to be 21 to gamble.

This is not rocket science - she was wrong and she knew it. This was made clear when she first approached me arguing that the servers were where the jurisdiction should be determined. This is what she told me:

I will argue that my jurisdiction of play is in the Caribbean where the servers are located, not in the United States

All these claims that the casino was aware that she was not of legal age don't wash. She has yet to show me an email exchange between herself and the casino where she states - "I'm only 19 and reside in a jurisdiction that requires me to be 21 - can I play?" Sure, there is fault here from the casino not having extensive filters set up - but if you are aware that you are wrong, you are wrong.

If anyone was "ripped off" here it was the casino. The casino has paid back her deposists since it viewed her activities as void - this was done before she began to complain about this. So she has lost not a cent. Is she going to return her winnings? Nope, I don't think so. The casino is out of this amount as well.

To conclude - the player was wrong knowing she should not have played there. The casino was wrong for not having better safeguards set up to disallow 18-20 year olds from gambling from certain jurisdictions.

And I already mentioned that I was hoping to get something done with this, but you know what? Fuck it. I'm not wasting my time with this anymore.
 

autumn12

Dormant account
Joined
Aug 29, 2005
Location
Las Vegas, NV USA
"The player won small amounts and was paid"

One of the cashout they processed was for over $5000, this absolutely not a small amount.

For this amount you are asked for an ID even in a land casino to verify your identity, if you win in a machine more than 1200 you are even being asked to fill a form. They knew what is going on. I had no idea I am not a legitmate player for them.

They audited the account but because I was losing they let it go.

bryan, can you please reconsider my case and send them a firm email that what they done is not ethical at all.

I was their player, I was their custmer for couple of months. I played by the rules, for Bellavegas the age of 18 was the minimum age.

Do you really think they did not know my age when they processed the over $5000 cashout ? is that a small amount ?
 
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