Foreign Currency Bonus Discussion

[spearmaster]

The simple fact of the matter is that bonus hunting can be very profitable if you are very tight with your play. Naturally, to add to your advantage, you would use the largest possible currency unit to start with, because ultimately if you know you have a very good chance of cashing out ahead, the more valuable the currency, the more you make.

Unless online casinos get their acts together and figure out that the bonus industry is an overall LOSER for them, nothing will change. Instead, casinos prefer to churn people through their systems, and then pick out those they don't like and make it as hard as possible for them to collect their winnings.

Not all online casinos are like this - but it goes without saying that the majority of online casinos today continue to employ this type of tactic.

To put it bluntly, this sucks.

Until the industry devises a bonus system which benefits returning players rather than new players, this will unfortunately always be the case - but they have no one except themselves to blame - especially if they overstep their boundaries and eventually find themselves on the Rogue List.

 

[soflat]

Evidently there are some people whose existence is predicated on how much they can screw with these same T&Cs to get some [undeserved] cash. Online gambling is supposed to be FUN..........why do some people get so involved you'd think their life was dependant on it?

Why should someone in the UK get 70% more bonus money than folks in the USA? Should we be penalized? Don't they want our business as much as the Brits? Are Americans less deserving?

The simple solution for casinos that really care, is to even the playing field and offer everyone the same amount.

I really don't think it is a big deal to most casinos, but they found that advantage players (aka bonus abusers) tend to play in the currency affording them the highest advantage.

 

[spearmaster]

Why should someone in the UK get 70% more bonus money than folks in the USA? Should we be penalized? Don't they want our business as much as the Brits? Are Americans less deserving?

Because their risk is 70% higher.

It all boils down to what kind of stakes you want to play for, provided the casino doesn't mind. Obviously, with a bonus to be had which can give the player an edge on the house, the player will choose the highest stake possible.

 

[bb1webs]

I have no doubt why a casino's T&Cs read like the Library of Congress. Evidently there are some people whose existence is predicated on how much they can screw with these same T&Cs to get some [undeserved] cash. Online gambling is supposed to be FUN..........why do some people get so involved you'd think their life was dependant on it?

though a bit off-subject I'd like to reply since I've given it so much thought. .... mostly due the fact that I find it interesting people are willing to go thru so much shit to get over on a casino for a hundred bucks ... or even $500 ...

I'm living proof your time is much better spent pursuing a more ... profitable existence than what you could ever make chasing bonuses to try and get over on the casinos ..... and I don't care if you hit every casino twice around ...

anyway I suppose it has to do with the casinos being viewed as entities of evil background looking to do evil ... and using the enticement of free money as a means of doing so... and the bonus chasers view it as ... beating the devil ... so to speak.
The rest are just a bunch of cheapies looking to get free crumbs falling from the rest of society's plate. And its fun for either group to pursue such matters.

I have no real problem with that until comes a time when either break across the lines of good and honorable behavior ... ie multiple accounts (which I'd bet better than 20% of those who have complained about bonus issues ... are guilty of breaking... maybe a lot more than that) and most importantly start bashing the casinos reputation all over amounts of money that are obviously expendable to the casinos but still they MUST protect themselves (via the rules created by them) or else they'd not be able to offer these bonuses at all - purely from a financial standpoint. (elsewise everybody'd be signing up and then cashing out and that is not the spirit in which the offers were made, but rather as a way of saying "hey, try my games because if you do I know you'll feel like playing them again... and I'm willing to give you the money to try them").

It is a sad commentary on society that we have become such as that you must have such rediculously long T&Cs to do almost anything anymore in order to protect yourself from those who would seek to profit from any kind possible means they can find even though they in their own hearts know that was not the spirit in which the offer was made...

 

[suzecat]

Did you happen to miss the answer she gave DIRECTLY following your question back then?





Link to the post for anyone else suffering from Selective Memory Syndrome:

Link Outdated / Removed

Let's take a look at Suzecat's chat - manifestly designed to elicit responses about this player's "illegal" transfers which she spectacularly failed to elicit:

Question: "I just wanted to find out if I, as a US citizen with a US bank account, can purchase British pounds and use them to gamble."

Answer: "We[ll] the funds that would go into your NETeller account would be USD. If you find a merchant that will accept funds from a USD account and they are GBP than the conversion would be done for you at the time of the transfer."

So yes you can. We all know that anyway. BFD.

Question: "OK, so if a casino requires that you purchase/play in the same currency as the country where you live, then it would not be possible to use Neteller unless you were untruthful about your country of residence?"

Where did that come from?? The casino does NO such thing, and nothing in the Neteller reps answer suggested any such thing. All he said was that the conversion would be done at the time of transfer. Exactly WHERE in his response did you deduce "so, if a casino requires that you purchase/play in the same currency as the country where you live"?

Obvious answer: "No, it would be based on your currency, not your country of residence, as any NETeller customer can choose USD, CAD, GBP, and EUR as there base currency to their NETeller account."

Question: "Right, so I understand that Neteller would convert funds for you but they do not confirm an account holders' country of residence with a merchant?"

Why would they?? Since when was it down to Neteller to tell a Costa Rican casino that Caruso, playing in USD, is from England??

Obvious answer: "That is correct, we do not give any information to the merchants as far as you personal NETeller information goes."

Well duuuuuh, big surprise there.

Dramatic finale: "Michael, is it OK for me to copy this chat session and share it with people at Casinomeister forum?"

Yeah, I mean we learned a lot there, didnt we? We learned that Neteller doesn't reveal to the casino details of their (Neteller) customers' accounts. Pretty important to get Neteller's express permission before posting THAT chat wasn't it? I mean, countries might fall now. Wars might start.

Why didnt you just ask Michael if he eats corn flakes for breakfast? Wed have had a more meaningful insight. LMAO.

Just to back up what has already been said anyway: casinos WANT players playing in GBP that's why the offer multiple currencies. GBP are bigger than USD, so represent a bigger win rate for the casino. Clearly, they also represent a bigger win rate for the bonus hunter which is the downside from the casinos' perspective.

Oh, and now I come to think of it, tell me this Suzecat: since in your opinion "if a casino requires that you purchase/play in the same currency as the country where you live, then it would not be possible to use Neteller unless you were untruthful about your country of residence?"

and since I personally use Neteller to play is US dollars as a UK citizen, Neteller is actually condoning my illegal account operation. Correct?

Think carefully before answering, because you might not be best advised to state that both myself and Neteller are basically frauds.



Yeah, run this one by us, Suzecat.

Sorry for the delay in responding to your questions, Caruso. It was best for me to catch my breathe before I endeavored to answer your pointed questions.

1. Selective Memory Syndrome. Hummm, it seems to be contagious.

2. Wasn't really trying to illicit anything from Neteller except for how they treat currency conversions. The rest of your Neteller comments make me believe you were in such a hurry to jump in my sh!t that you didn't really comprehend what you were reading.

3. Many people missed this one, so I will clarify where I was going. The untruthfulness of which I spoke was simply that in order to play in pounds (at a casino that requires you to play in the currency of your residence) you would have to be untruthful (when you signed up at the casino) about your location if you indeed lived in a country where pounds were not the base currency. As I have said, the T&C of the casino we are discussing states that you must play in the currency of your country of residence. Now Autumn12 said this was not a rule when she signed up (and thank you for pointing this out as I had missed it). Only the casino could say what the rules were at the time she signed up. I am skeptical about Autumn12's motives (I can think of 20,000 of them) so I can't feel very certain about what she posted.

4. Neteller a fraud - gee I hope not as I do business with them. I have no idea, nor do I care, if you are a fraud. I do think you have serious issues with patience and tolerance and should look for a line of work/recreation that does not require written or verbal contact with the public.

Hope this covered all your queries.

 

[Vesuvio]

though a bit off-subject I'd like to reply since I've given it so much thought. .... mostly due the fact that I find it interesting people are willing to go thru so much shit to get over on a casino for a hundred bucks ... or even $500 ...

I always wonder what people who don't systematically use bonuses find so confusing in the concept that if you keep making relatively small amounts of money (though often they're not so small) it all adds up to a lot of money. It's a bit similar to the people who keep depositing $100 to play slots and then suddenly notice a year later they're down $20000.

Despite the complaint threads there's usually no particular hassle to get involved with, and for what it's worth you'll find regular bonus hunters start very few threads here & when they do they're usually completely in the right (no-one else is so careful to comply with the T&Cs). The "flame and burn" threads are usually the result of disgruntled gamblers.

It is a sad commentary on society that we have become such as that you must have such rediculously long T&Cs to do almost anything anymore in order to protect yourself from those who would seek to profit from any kind possible means they can find even though they in their own hearts know that was not the spirit in which the offer was made...

In our hearts we know bonuses are offered in the spirit of greed and cynicism. Casinos appeal to players' lowest instincts and know most people haven't the slightest chance of keeping a deposit if they take a bonus (not that you shouldn't take a bonus - you'll lose your money without one anyway, sooner or later). Forgive me for not having any qualms if it's possible to use the casino's trick against them.

suzecat, I wrote a point-by-point response to your "apology" before, which was actually still an attack on bonus hunters, but I decided not to post. Just keep in mind that perhaps more than 50% of the regular readers of this board are bonus hunters, so you shouldn't be suprised if your casual insults (which I don't think you or Pinababy or others are even particularly aware of) occasionally ruffle some feathers.

 

[soflat]

mostly due the fact that I find it interesting people are willing to go thru so much shit to get over on a casino for a hundred bucks ... or even $500 ...

I'm living proof your time is much better spent pursuing a more ... profitable existence than what you could ever make chasing bonuses to try and get over on the casinos ..... and I don't care if you hit every casino twice around ...

anyway I suppose it has to do with the casinos being viewed as entities of evil background looking to do evil ... and using the enticement of free money as a means of doing so... and the bonus chasers view it as ... beating the devil ... so to speak.
The rest are just a bunch of cheapies looking to get free crumbs falling from the rest of society's plate. And its fun for either group to pursue such matters.

It is a sad commentary on society that we have become such as that you must have such rediculously long T&Cs to do almost anything anymore in order to protect yourself from those who would seek to profit from any kind possible means they can find even though they in their own hearts know that was not the spirit in which the offer was made...

Not sure if you realize how arrogant you come across here (you have found a way to make big profits and you think the rest of us are just waiting for crumbs? actually I think a lot of these people probably have fulfilling lives and make a good living)

In what spirit do casinos make bonus offers? Are we supposed to just play for fun and purposely lose because the casinos were nice enough to give us an extra $50 (crumbs to you) to play with?

Fun IS one motive for playing, but people have also been trying to 'beat the house' as a pastime for centuries.

I am skeptical about Autumn12's motives (I can think of 20,000 of them) so I can't feel very certain about what she posted.

I think Autumn was trying to win some money (Who isn't?) What are some of the other 19,999 possible motives?

 

[42ndSSD]

Until the industry devises a bonus system which benefits returning players rather than new players, this will unfortunately always be the case - but they have no one except themselves to blame - especially if they overstep their boundaries and eventually find themselves on the Rogue List.

I agree wholeheartedly, but I also think the online casinos are in an awkward position and there's no one easy answer. Many online casinos are going the "slots and keno only" route for bonuses, which I think shows wheir their true interests lie.

When visiting (say) Vegas, part of the reason to gamble is the "comps"--both direct and indirect. It's not too difficult to come out even or even slightly ahead when free room and board is taken into account, and many people enjoy the atmosphere, feeling of getting away on a vacation, etc... things that are hard to put a monetary value on. For many people a trip to Vegas is a win even if they lose their bankroll and/or aren't hardcore gambling addicts.

All the online casinos can offer is the opportunity to play the games and lose money. Some offer a comp system, but none of the ones I've looked at were worthwhile unless you were siphoning out a lot of money. Sensible, because the casinos aren't all that anxious to pay out more than they take in. (The comps offered by the B&M casinos are offset by revenue from non-comped players.)

The bonus system is also an inducement to get people hooked, and I'm sure it's fairly effective. I do wonder if the "bonus whore" is really as big a problem as the casinos make it out to be given how most people seemingly gamble with abandon.

In a way, their complaints strongly remind me of the similar complaints over piracy from the RIAA and the software manufacturers--blown way out of proportion as an excuse to charge people more money... or in the casinos' case, a way to ban players they believe are "abusing bonuses". These casinos need to "man up and show some balls" by allowing players to gamble however they want. If players choose not to throw money away, so be it.

Most of the T&Cs I've seen aren't that bad. The problem isn't so much their length, but that they're often deliberately vague, not posted prominently, and purposefully worded in ways which are difficult to understand. And some of the casinos are trying to take advantage of players, even a few of the "good guys". Frequently they make it a challenge to find which games a bonus is eligible for, and they hardly ever block players in their software from playing those games. Rarely do they make the bonus restrictions clear in the offer itself, instead burying them somewhere else.

But, there really are some decent casinos. I recently cashed out a little over $5k from a $100/$100 matching bonus; they paid with nary a whimper and made it clear they were happy to have me as a customer. But they aren't offering reload or monthly bonuses just begging to be abused, either.

 

[Linus]

Nice Post, Vesuvio.

I always wonder what people who don't systematically use bonuses find so confusing in the concept that if you keep making relatively small amounts of money (though often they're not so small) it all adds up to a lot of money. It's a bit similar to the people who keep depositing $100 to play slots and then suddenly notice a year later they're down $20000.

It's also similar to casino affiliates, who make their money by getting a small slice of the money gamblers lose at their casinos. As I'm sure any casino affiliate would tell you, those small "crumbs" add up!

Of course, under revenue-share agreements, affiliates only make money when their players lose.

Despite the complaint threads there's usually no particular hassle to get involved with, and for what it's worth you'll find regular bonus hunters start very few threads here & when they do they're usually completely in the right (no-one else is so careful to comply with the T&Cs). The "flame and burn" threads are usually the result of disgruntled gamblers.

I've noticed that too. Reading casino T&C's is not all that much fun, I guess.

In our hearts we know bonuses are offered in the spirit of greed and cynicism. Casinos appeal to players' lowest instincts and know most people haven't the slightest chance of keeping a deposit if they take a bonus (not that you shouldn't take a bonus - you'll lose your money without one anyway, sooner or later). Forgive me for not having any qualms if it's possible to use the casino's trick against them.

I have a hard time believing that most people who gamble, aren't trying to win. And of course, it's impossible to believe that any casino anywhere, isn't in business to make money.

suzecat, I wrote a point-by-point response to your "apology" before, which was actually still an attack on bonus hunters, but I decided not to post. Just keep in mind that perhaps more than 50% of the regular readers of this board are bonus hunters, so you shouldn't be suprised if your casual insults (which I don't think you or Pinababy or others are even particularly aware of) occasionally ruffle some feathers.

I don't see what difference it makes whether Autumn was 19, 21, or 121, online gambling would be just as illegal either way.

If it's up to the player to determine whether online gambling is legal in the jurisdiction where they live, every player in the US is violating the Terms and Conditions, because it's not legal here.

And yes - the casinos all know this. That's why they're all so careful not to have any physical or financial presence here. It's not that hard to keep track of. Ask Jay Cohen. He'll explain.

 

[bb1webs]

I apolgize for answering these since they are off-subject but I feel it necessary.

Not sure if you realize how arrogant you come across here (you have found a way to make big profits and you think the rest of us are just waiting for crumbs? actually I think a lot of these people probably have fulfilling lives and make a good living)

I apologize for sounding arrogant. I merely am stating a fact that if you are seeking to chase bonuses as a means of profit that there are much better ways to spend your time. And yes I have found a way to make a decent income and encouraging others to perhaps do likewise rather than spend their time chasing after "the big money by beating the casino bonuses..." is not what I consider arrogant but rather I'm trying to make those in it for that reason - to see that much of the hype ... and yes there is hype: many bonus chasers love to tell the story of the time they .... but in fact for most people its not something that is (at least what I consider) to be an endeavor where they will ever likely achieve the goal they are seeking and if they spent that time working towards other more lucrative goals that they will be much more likely to be rewarded by choosing that path over chasing bonuses.

Getting all ruffled at what I said doesn't change the facts. If you are bonus chaser then get over it and live with your choices. If you recall i stated I had no problem with the bonus chasers for whatever their reasons UNTIL such time comes that they overstep the bounds of honorable actions.

Only those who are truly bonus whores would take offense to anything I said because I speak the truth. If you're out to never spend any of your own money or only just enough of it to meet whatever requirements are necessary for you to do your thing .... then live with the image you created and don't take offense at me for stating the obvious.

Unless of course you can tell me where such a player does NOT come off looking like they are trying to grab the crumbs created by those to whom the bonuses are truly intended (because if the bonuses didn't bring in players whose losses helped off-set the cost of paying out on money won by bonus play: there'd be no bonuses offered period. Or at least certainly not like the things you're used to now anyway). So yes; those bonus chasers are doing exactly as I stated.

)

In what spirit do casinos make bonus offers? Are we supposed to just play for fun and purposely lose because the casinos were nice enough to give us an extra $50 (crumbs to you) to play with?)

$50 isn't crumbs to you? I'd like to know where you shop. In any case: as I thought I'd stated somewhere earlier: the bonuses are there saying: "i have some games that if you're a gambler; I know you'd like. Please try them via my dime: because I know once you try the games you'll want to play again. How hard is that to understand? And I believe the casinos make that point by the play-thru requirements they've implemented.

people have also been trying to 'beat the house' as a pastime for centuries.

exactly. Its called gambling. the expression "beating the house" comes from beating the house via risking your money to take their money, not risking their money to take their money. If you can't at least give me that then I give up and ask we agree to disagree.

Up until the time when the net arrived: there wasn't technology which would have allowed land-based casinos to ever offer such bonuses with play-thru requirements because they had no easy way to check the requirements were ever met: so its rather absurd to associate the current state of affairs with anything that history has to offer because there simply was never before an equal to the situations we see now.

yes people have always been trying to beat the house. But until the net came along beating the house had a very, very different definition.

 

[Vesuvio]

And yes I have found a way to make a decent income and encouraging others to perhaps do likewise rather than spend their time chasing after "the big money by beating the casino bonuses..." is not what I consider arrogant but rather I'm trying to make those in it for that reason - to see that much of the hype ... and yes there is hype: many bonus chasers love to tell the story of the time they .... but in fact for most people its not something that is (at least what I consider) to be an endeavor where they will ever likely achieve the goal they are seeking and if they spent that time working towards other more lucrative goals that they will be much more likely to be rewarded by choosing that path over chasing bonuses.

Ok, so what's this great way of making a decent income you're recommending, then? I've just spent a while checking out your sites and apart from some verbiage boiling down to a recommendation to play basic strategy you're just telling players to gamble. Oh, and they get a completely unnecessary guarantee that they might get their money back if a casino doesn't pay. How does that give the player an advantage?

I can see how you make money by trying to encourage non bonus-hunters to use you as an affiliate and lose money, but other than that it's not clear.

Bonus hunting isn't a "goal" for many people, though of course many set realistic financial goals. I've seen almost no "hype" in the 2 or 3 years I've been involved as there's no need (actually the prevailing hype, which I don't really approve of, is negative, aimed at discouraging others from getting into the game). It's boring but profitable - yes, those crumbs really do add up. As an affiliate you should understand that.

 

[jetset]

BB1 made an interesting comment:

"exactly. It's called gambling. the expression "beating the house" comes from beating the house via risking your money to take their money, not risking their money to take their money."

The problem with that argument is that the casinos are offering their money to every Tom, Dick or Harry, hoping to make more money off them.

It's no good casinos getting uptight if players accept their offers, comply with the T&C's (which the casinos themselves design) and happen to prosper.

I think this comes back to the need for a balance between signups (to get new players) and useful loyalty programs and quality CRM (to keep 'em)

 

[Let_It_Ride]

okay here's my two cents worth or two pennies or what ever currency you like

I play in a different currency from the country of my residence not because I'm a bonus abuser or trying to take an unfair advantage, but because

1. I live in euroland but use s to play with as I still have a UK bank account, and this is the account I use for my gaming

2. I know the value of the GBP, it's a currency I grew up with, by this I mean if for example a coke is 1 it's an okay price, but 2 I find too expensive. Even after 4 years whenever I spend I convert from euros to pounds in my head to really understand that bill!

Also do casinos really care what currency we play in, they're in the business of making profit and most players tend to deposit in round figures e.g. 500
I'm sure they'd rather have a 500 deposit then a $500.

Finally why do so many poker rooms use $, those exchange rates kill me even before I hit the tables, last few days it cost me $1.81 to the but in return I only get 1.73 when I deposit

 

[Vesuvio]

Its called gambling. the expression "beating the house" comes from beating the house via risking your money to take their money, not risking their money to take their money.

Jetset made a good point relating to this. I'd also point out that it's another example of your not understanding how bonus hunters operate, bb1webs. Most now think almost nothing of depositing and risking sums of money that the majority of "recreational" gamblers would rightly be terrified to put on the table. They're in the same position as casinos - with a large bankroll and the knowledge that the odds are in their favour - so like the casinos they're willing to accept high levels of short-term risk, knowing that statistically they should be fine in the long term.

 

[GrandMaster]

Why should someone in the UK get 70% more bonus money than folks in the USA? Should we be penalized? Don't they want our business as much as the Brits? Are Americans less deserving?

Why should Canadians playing in Canadian dollars get 15% less? Some casinos found the intelligent solution and give roughly the same amount of sign-up bonus in any currency. Casinos could even offer different bonuses (different size, different T&C) to players in different countries or regions based on their experiece of profitability of players from different areas.

As long as the player does not receive a substantially bigger bonus because of his choice of currency, there is no reason not to let the player play in any currency he likes. In particular, casinos should not make up non-existent international foreign currency laws to force players play in US$. There are British expats and others living outside the UK who have accounts in pound sterling and would like to play in pounds sterling with no ulterior motive.

 

[soflat]

I apologize for sounding arrogant.

Apology accepted.

$50 isn't crumbs to you? I'd like to know where you shop.

Not.

Enjoy your ebook and (useless) casino guarantee business.

You obviously look down on casino players, so there is no point in addressing all your other points.

 

[Macgyver]

I'll address some of them, because you're still very condescending ....

I apologize for sounding arrogant. I merely am stating a fact that if you are seeking to chase bonuses as a means of profit that there are much better ways to spend your time. And yes I have found a way to make a decent income and encouraging others to perhaps do likewise rather than spend their time chasing after "the big money by beating the casino bonuses..." is not what I consider arrogant but rather I'm trying to make those in it for that reason - to see that much of the hype ... and yes there is hype: many bonus chasers love to tell the story of the time they .... but in fact for most people its not something that is (at least what I consider) to be an endeavor where they will ever likely achieve the goal they are seeking and if they spent that time working towards other more lucrative goals that they will be much more likely to be rewarded by choosing that path over chasing bonuses.

And my decent supplemental income is to play with bonuses, but you don't hear me telling you that your way of making money is not "honorable."

Getting all ruffled at what I said doesn't change the facts. If you are bonus chaser then get over it and live with your choices. If you recall i stated I had no problem with the bonus chasers for whatever their reasons UNTIL such time comes that they overstep the bounds of honorable actions.

Only those who are truly bonus whores would take offense to anything I said because I speak the truth. If you're out to never spend any of your own money or only just enough of it to meet whatever requirements are necessary for you to do your thing .... then live with the image you created and don't take offense at me for stating the obvious.

Again, you obviously don't understand even the basics of bonus hunting. Unless you're talking specifically and limitedly about "free-chip bonuses," I do indeed spend my own money. I have to deposit some of that money in order to get whatever percentage bonus I'm redeeming. Maybe you recognize that spending when you say it's "necessary for you to do your thing," but that image you speak of is mostly in your own better-than-thou, judgmental mind.

Unless of course you can tell me where such a player does NOT come off looking like they are trying to grab the crumbs created by those to whom the bonuses are truly intended (because if the bonuses didn't bring in players whose losses helped off-set the cost of paying out on money won by bonus play: there'd be no bonuses offered period. Or at least certainly not like the things you're used to now anyway). So yes; those bonus chasers are doing exactly as I stated.

$50 isn't crumbs to you? I'd like to know where you shop. In any case: as I thought I'd stated somewhere earlier: the bonuses are there saying: "i have some games that if you're a gambler; I know you'd like. Please try them via my dime: because I know once you try the games you'll want to play again. How hard is that to understand? And I believe the casinos make that point by the play-thru requirements they've implemented.

Once again, judgmental and condescending. I'm a lesser class citizen begging for something that wasn't intended for me??

I don't think so, buddy. I don't email casinos saying "Please give me a bonus, please, I just need to play" and it's damn presumptuous for you to think or imply otherwise.

If you want to advocate that bonuses should only be given to return players, fine. But it's a casino's marketing decision to offer to all players a signup bonus to introduce them to the casino. If I like the casino, I'll come back. If I don't, I won't.

 

[caruso]

Good posts Vesuvio and MacGyver.

I'm living proof your time is much better spent pursuing a more ... profitable existence than what you could ever make chasing bonuses to try and get over on the casinos

And you would know this how? Got access to all BHers online bank accounts??

I merely am stating a fact that if you are seeking to chase bonuses as a means of profit that there are much better ways to spend your time.

Like, an affiliate whore running a banner factory like yours which gives gamblers NO useful information? This is a "better" way to spend time? I very much doubt it - on all counts, moral, financial, the lot.

Only those who are truly bonus whores would take offense to anything I said because I speak the truth. If you're out to never spend any of your own money or only just enough of it to meet whatever requirements are necessary for you to do your thing ...beating the house via risking your money to take their money, not risking their money to take their money.

You state with supreme arrogance you "speak the truth", then go on to make it apparent you are entirely without a clue! "Not risking your own money"?? Sharp players risk FAR more of their own money than 99% of the recreational ploppies. The remaining 1% or so I'll grant to the whales, who are a bit of a case apart.

You obviously look down on casino players, so there is no point in addressing all your other points.

I believe the vast majority of them do. In a way, he's being creditibly honest, if generally grossly ill-informed. This is a useful insight into the makeup of a true affiliate's affiliate.

 

[nafanny29]

Finally why do so many poker rooms use $, those exchange rates kill me even before I hit the tables, last few days it cost me $1.81 to the but in return I only get 1.73 when I deposit

So SO true.

Ive tried a few $ rooms and I get ripped off by 8-10% every time. Thats why I play 99% of my poker on the UK Crypto network as they deal in Sterling.

Shame really as I would love to play on a variety of sites but I refuse to lose a big chunk of my bankroll in doing so.

 

[TheBloke]

So SO true.

Ive tried a few $ rooms and I get ripped off by 8-10% every time. Thats why I play 99% of my poker on the UK Crypto network as they deal in Sterling.

Shame really as I would love to play on a variety of sites but I refuse to lose a big chunk of my bankroll in doing so.

Unfortunately it's damned if you do, damned if you don't - when you play at Cryptos you pay (nearly) twice as much rake as you do at a $ poker site. Crypto max their rake at 3, compared to $3 for US sites.

 

[Linus]

Only those who are truly bonus whores would take offense to anything I said because I speak the truth. If you're out to never spend any of your own money or only just enough of it to meet whatever requirements are necessary for you to do your thing .... then live with the image you created and don't take offense at me for stating the obvious.

I think that you'll find that - other than on affiliate bulletin boards - bonus chasers/whores/whatever, are are looked at with less disdain than affiliates.

 

[Simmo!]

I think that you'll find that - other than on affiliate bulletin boards - bonus chasers/whores/whatever, are are looked at with less disdain than affiliates.

Probably true

In an ideal world, an affiliate acts as the middle "glue" between the casino and the player. Sadly, that is more the exception than the rule, and the majority of casinos incentivize affiliates to act as an extra promotional arm.

In light of that, it's not unrealistic to expect players to see it how it is after all. But like in any area of business, there are different areas of motivation. And the same goes for the player side too. Some go for bonuses, some don't - thats the way life is and good luck to 'em i say

What grates is when people deliberately try to bend the rules, or act in a way that is largely unethical. Plenty of players and affiliates alike do this and money is the root cause - we're not the only industry with problems like this let's face it. Additionally, when certain people (no-one specific in mind) lump all types of player and/or all types of affiliate into one basket and voice a group judgement publically. In essence, this is also what HR4777 is based around too, although its being dressed up as a "control" issue for obvious political reasons.

Someone in one of my threads recently, intimates that because I am an affilliate, i have an ulterior motive to the subject of the thread and in essence is implying that I shouldn't be allowed to voice an opinion on the matter - or perhaps more accurately, that my opinion is irrelevant because i would be biased. Fair enough - they are perfectly entitled to their opinion, and i wasn't going to debate the rights and wrongs, but it's indicative of my previous paragraph where assumptions are made based on your line of business.

Of course, this is where forums are so much fun. Different opinions, open debate, even arguments...they keep us coming back for more. I just think it's important to respect other people's right to their choices and to remember that while it might seem like we do, we are usually talking to people we don't know the first thing about. Those who don't show a degree of respect, or those who get a tad over-emotional on a subject, or use it as a soap-box, often find out that it does their reputation more damage than good. A current example of emotion hindering judgement can be found here in another forum.

But back on subject, I certainly wouldn't jump down someone's throat for taking a bonus in £ when they live in the US. If the casino gives them the option, then it's fair game IMO

 

[vedat]

how do people profit from bonuses

now a days how do people profit from bonuses usually they are 20x slots
and slots usually have %94-90 pay out 100$ deposit get 100$ bonus and you have to wager 4000$ just at slots and 4000$ slots should make you lose between 240$ to 400$ and i am sure people lose more than that even they hit something people usually lose them all becouse of wagering requirements
and still casinos dont like people who play with bonuses there must be a trick at there

 

[vinylweatherman]

Statistics

The trick is to calculate the "expected value" of a given bonus and the required playthrough. If the expected value is positive or near zero the bonus is worth a look, although it does not mean you will win.

Expected value is simply looking at the playthrough, and working out how much will be lost to the house in the long term due to the house edge. For 20x on slots at 95% on a 100% match for $100

playthrough 20x$200 = $4000
expected loss is 5% of $4000 or $200; so you should expect to lose in the long term.

If Blackjack could be played, at 1% to 0.5% house edge then the calculation is different, the expected loss is only $40 (1%) or $20 (0.5%), and thus in the long term a bonus hunter would win provided they play to minimise variance.

Naturally, the idea of further bonuses is to encourage players to try again. An ideal loyalty bonus would be one that preserved a small (say 0.5%) house edge overall, but gave the clever player a real prospect of beating the WR by clever play. Despite the relative simplicity of the calculation, the casinos often cannot grasp this, and cry "foul" when they are outsmarted by players. Players also cry "foul" when cheated by the casino. If the casino has abided by it's own CLEAR terms, and the player misjudged the value of an offer, that's just tough on the player, but I sometimes see cases where casinos happily let players play and lose with bonuses, but don't like it when they finally win with one of them.

It is similar to our supermarkets. Bread and Milk are often sold at cost, or even at a loss; the idea being to get people to buy the other things on offer. If shoppers only went in for Bread and Milk, and waited till closing when they had to cut prices further to clear, would they be told to leave because they were abusing the Bread and Milk isle. (This can happen if you buy ALL the loss leader stock and leave none for others, but not if you just buy enough for your own needs). If everybody bought only Bread and Milk, they would have to increase the prices to ensure a profit. The casino equivalent is the steady tightening of WR rather than stopping bonuses. Who wants to be the first supermarket to NOT sell Bread and Milk, and who wants to be the first casino to totally do away with bonuses.

 

[42ndSSD]

Expected value is simply looking at the playthrough, and working out how much will be lost to the house in the long term due to the house edge.

Focusing primarily on expected value is pretty traditional approach. It's not a bad method, but it makes a couple of assumptions which don't apply to most bonus play--the worst of which is that you'll be able to play bonuses forever.

While I don't want to turn this into BW 101, and this is bound to be either an offensive or boring post for some, there are probably some useful ideas for non-bonus gambling as well.

The really important figure for bonus (ab)use is the Risk of Ruin (RoR). While the house edge figures prominently in RoR, there are other significant factors to be considered such as bet sizing and game variance.

RoR is essentially the odds of losing an entire starting bankroll. For games with a positive return, RoR is the chance of going broke over an infinite period of time. For games with a negative return (which of course make up the majority of casino games) it's the chance of going broke over a specific set of conditions: for example, playing the game a set number of times or stopping when a specified bankroll is met.

RoR is more important than expected value because few of us will play enough sessions to approximate the expected long-term return on a per-session basis. Minimizing RoR usually maximizes the chances of getting a positive return from any given session.

In the following examples the player has a starting bankroll of $200, a profit is ending up over $100, and you have to place $2500 worth of bets before you can cash out. All of the figures are taken from simulations, but they should be accurate to within 1%.

Let's consider RTG Pontoon with $1, $5, and $25 bets. What bet size is best? What are the chances of coming out ahead?

Typical but incorrect answers are "$25 bets" and "excellent, Pontoon has a really low house edge". You're placing fewer bets so $25 is lots faster, plus your long-term return is slightly higher. So $25 must be the best option... right? And when you win, you can get some pretty impressive wins. (Those are actual arguments I've read.)

The right answer is $1 bets. The probability of winning any given session (ending up over $100) is .89 for $1 bets, .67 for $5 bets, and .39 for $25 bets. Worse, the probability of having 3 consecutive losing sessions with $25 bets is .23, versus only .001 for dollar bets. And, the majority of the time you'll lose both the bonus and deposit on $25 bets--while with dollar bets only rarely will you end up completely broke, and the remaining money can then be used for the next bonus.

As for the "increased return", the average long-term return for $25 bets is only about $6 higher than the return from dollar bets. Hardly worth it. Sure, you get some impressive wins... and some mighty impressive losing streaks.

Another very good option for this bonus is single hand 9/6 Jacks or Better with quarters. The probability of completing the bonus with a profit is about .84. (This figure is very different from what you'd expect by just looking at the house edge.) If you're really dedicated, nickels are extremely safe (99% chance of earning a profit) but 40,000 hands for an average $87 profit is a lot of work.

Other points:

Baccarat is a better option than Pontoon with $5 and above bets even though the house edge is much higher; the probability of completing the bonus with $5 Baccarat is .76, and it's just about 50/50 with $25 bets. (Assuming Baccarat is allowed, that is. Usually it isn't.)

House edge makes a significant difference in the JoB example. 6/5 JoB with $1 or below bets is a long-term loss with this bonus. With $5 bets you'll probably come out slightly ahead in the long run, but the probability of winning any given session is only about .25--a total crapshoot, in other words. (It's safest to say that 6/5 JoB is a lose, period.)

Slots are rarely a good option for bonus hunting even with a 99.9% return and a smaller WR, because the odds of making a profit are surprisingly low even with penny bets.