AVOID THE IOG GROUP - Casino Las Vegas, Swiss Casino, Magic Box etc

[jdblingbling]

I created accounts and deposited at each casino in the IOG Group (Swiss Casino, Magic Box Casino, Casino King, 50 Stars Casino, and Casino Las Vegas) receiving the signup bonuses offered on their website.

After I had made some wagers (mostly video poker) and had losses on four out of five of the casinos listed, I get messaged by "tech support" asking me to "log off" so they can look at a "technical problem on my account". Upon logging back in, my bonuses had been pulled from all of my accounts. I argue with chat support, and they tell me that I've been labelled a bonus abuser and by their bonus policy they can pull my bonuses whenever they feel. After arguing for a good half hour and finally giving up the ghost, and ask them to simply refund my entire deposits on each site back to my Neteller account given that I would not have made wagers had there been no extra bonus to play with. The 50 Stars Casino even TELLS me in live chat that I will at least receive my full deposit back from 50 Stars (which turns out to be a lie) I emailed the email provided in a different thread for escalated issues: [email protected]. The rep Chris tells me that they will not give my my deposits back and can pull bonuses whenever they want and they say:

" I am sorry that we have not reached an understanding. I would recommend that you review our bonus policies and Terms of Use.

There is no casino, online and base, that would return sums that have been played and lost. As a real player you must know, a casino cannot return lost funds.

The IOG Casino group strives to provide the best service possible to all of our players, and that is why we are returning the sum that you didn't play and lose. Honesty and integrity are very important here, and for this reason we are returning your casino account balance. Our actions were completely in our right according to the bonus terms and Terms of Use with which you agreed when you signed up to play in our casinos."

As if they are doing me a FREAKING FAVOR by returning what HASN'T been lost at this point and closing my accounts. (Which I had to send them my license and multiple bills and have waited more than three weeks to even receive THAT from them).

I understand if they think I am not a profitable player and they want to lock me out of their site, that's fine. What's irritating is that this is an obvious bait and switch. If I had been a big winner, they would refund my deposits and close my account calling me a bonus abuser. Because I'm a big loser, they won't refund my deposits, they'll just pull all bonuses and close the account.

I have gone back and forth with management several times on this issue stressing that it is not about returning lost wagers (I've played plenty of other places and never asked for a single comp beyond whatever comp or rewards points the casino software automatically rewards me) it's about returning wagers that would not have been made without receiving the promotional bonuses clearly offered by IOG on their website AND THEN SUBSEQUENTLY PULLED AFTER I HAVE LOSSES.

I've also done a search on this site and found several other IOG related threads. I suggest downgrading them to "Not Recommended" given their various problems, athough I'm sure the Casinomeister has a better grasp of the percent of times they resolve complaints.

 

[Graham]

A Reply from an IOG Representative

Our management is not doing you a favor, but what is our duty and privilege as a reputable online casino. Our management team and staff always do their best to uphold the Terms of Use and bonus policies that both we and you as the player agree to before you start playing.

We violated no condition or rule that is stated in our bonus promotional information nor in our Terms of Use. In fact, we acted according to rules that you and all of our other players agree to.

We will of course return the funds remaining in your casino account balances, but we cannot return funds that have been played. Our casino policy does not allow us to return the deposits of every unhappy player with losses or that disagrees with our Term of Use or bonus policies. However, we would never keep the deposits of a player who has had his or her account closed.

If you do not receive your the funds in your account balances in a timely manner please contact me immediately at [email protected], and I will assist you.

 

[caruso]

Our management is not doing you a favor, but what is our duty and privilege as a reputable online casino.

I won't make any comment on this and the rest of Friend Graham's spectaculary unbelievable response, as I know how long my Casinomeister membership will continue if I do.

Which bonus term did this player break? None.

What did this player do in contravention to the rules he signed up to? Nothing.

1) Return this player's earned bonuses.

2) Pay him anything he's owed.

3) Close his accounts.

Anything else and your behaviour is no better than the worst, most disreputable, unplayable, dangerous casino out there.

JD: while there's nothing wrong per se with trying to bonus-hunt these Playtech joints, Jeeeeeeeeesus Christ why don't you show a bit of smarts and not do all the casinos in one group at the same time??? I mean, you might as well just email them with "I am a bonus hunter and I only want to take your money with positive EV bonus play" - it wouldn't be any less obvious.

Anyway, your incredibly ill-advised behaviour notwithstanding, you are owed your money in full here. Good luck to you, but please use a bit more discretion in the future.

 

[BBKPoker]

Reputable like "whoa"

I mean, as a disclaimer, I know JD, and pointed him to Casinomeister at my house, but seriously Graham. You are a "reputable casino"?

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/playtech-the-nightmare-list.10836/

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/swiss-casino-casinolv-do-not-pay-6000.10806/

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/casino-king-took-my-money.11075/

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/casino-king-denies-bonus-after-wagering-done.6896/

and any player reading this should be alarmed to play on your site after that kind of response.

 

[BBKPoker]

Also, looking at their sites, you owe him what? 4-500 tops in deposits?

For crying out loud, that makes no sense at all...

 

[jetset]

I can never understand why a casino group that objects to bonus hunters going after a bonus at every site in the group doesn't change their T&Cs to better reflect their policy

i.e. Make it illegal in terms of the T&Cs to take more than one signup in the group, and then indicate clearly and upfront which casinos comprise the group where this is applicable. Then there can be no misunderstandings or "working the T&Cs"

They could save themselves so much in the way of hassle and reputation hits if they did, instead of having a hissy fit and closing down a player who has de facto complied with their T&Cs, trying to screw him on the monies owed and generally shooting themselves in the foot.

Pay the guy what you owe him before you lock his account, for goodness sake - how hard is that?

Still, I have to agree that the player seems to have walked into this group waving a big red bonus flag.

 

[schankwart]

Urgh, Graham... How is anyone going to deposit a single more cent in your Casinos if you remove the balances (bonuses) without any valid reason?
Actions such as this will ruin your operation and I am glad that this player has come to public so others, including myself, can be warned.

While I was actually sad that I got put off Swiss Casino's VIP membership a longer while ago the new management obviously is completely untrustworthy.

Pay this player if you want to recollect any good faith!

 

[nafanny29]

I can never understand why a casino group that objects to bonus hunters going after a bonus at every site in the group doesn't change their T&Cs to better reflect their policy

i.e. Make it illegal in terms of the T&Cs to take more than one signup in the group, and then indicate clearly and upfront which casinos comprise the group where this is applicable. Then there can be no misunderstandings or "working the T&Cs"

This is a good idea but for the big groups that have 10 or even 20+ casinos how would you know/remember which casinos you have already played at. Im talking about the more casual players not the out and out bonus hunters.

It would be awful to sign up to casino no2 in a group in good faith, get a bonus and win and be denyed payment.

Surely they could match up your name/address and not give a bonus automatically.

 

[ebruduck]

Casino Las Vegas and Swiss casino tried not to pay me because I used their bonus and won too much.

The Casinomeister helped me and they paid.

I think that with enough complaining they will pay.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Not Good

I suspect they have invoked the "at the managers discretion" type of term. This means that even though no terms have been violated, the manager can simply eject the player from the premises without reason.
Many casinos now seem to do this to obvious bonus hunters, and doing all casinos simultaneously is not exactly subtle, especially with Playtech!

What would be really interesting would be to find another similar case, but where the player had won with their own money and not needed the bonuses.
If such a case was dealt with not by simply removing the bonuses, but by anulling all winnings and returning the deposit then the casino is not being fair in how this is dealt with as losing and winning players are not receiving the same remedy, but the remedy in each case that favours the casino.

If winnings are confiscated from winning bonus players who have not breached a specific term, then all original deposits must be returned to a losing player who has attempted to play for bonuses.
I'm afraid that casinos that behave like the allegations above do not have my sympathy when they in turn get screwed by players who have outwitted even these draconian and unfair treatment terms.
If such casinos seem more intent on declaring war by trickery on the player community it will only encourage the player community to respond to online casinos in a similar manner, something which is already happening with multiple account fraud with rogue players being more inventive in how these multiple accounts are created to pass security checks.

 

[dominique]

It would be awful to sign up to casino no2 in a group in good faith, get a bonus and win and be denyed payment.

Surely they could match up your name/address and not give a bonus automatically.

That is a very constructive suggestion.

Makes sense to me.

 

[soflat]

The casino should either:

a) state in the T&Cs that you cannot do multiple bonuses within their group,

or b) verify member eligibilty before issuing the bonus credits (unfortunately this means all players would have to wait for the casino to issue the bonus rather it receive them instantly).

------------------------------------------------------------
The player should:

a) learn to not be such an obvious bonus hunter (when you get your account closed you prolly won't get any good reload bonuses, duh!)

and b) learn to use the available resources to select more reputable casinos.

-------------------------------------------------------------
All players should avoid this group of casinos because:

a) the rules are too vague

and b) the operator seems to be using them to prey on some players.

 

[Vesuvio]

I can never understand why a casino group that objects to bonus hunters going after a bonus at every site in the group doesn't change their T&Cs to better reflect their policy

i.e. Make it illegal in terms of the T&Cs to take more than one signup in the group, and then indicate clearly and upfront which casinos comprise the group where this is applicable. Then there can be no misunderstandings or "working the T&Cs".

But of course casino groups want players to sign-up at as many of their casinos as possible, and even with as many false identities as they can come up with... just as long as they lose. Why go to to the bother of finding new losing players if one of them's willing to play at all your sites?

They want to have their cake & eat it - so they'll allow players to lose their deposits but then cheat winning players. It's pure theft, obviously, and this casino group's even willing to own up to it on an open forum

I wouldn't actually criticise the player's actions - it's often been the best policy at these groups to go through all the members quickly before they get round to banning you. If they've given the bonus they're honour-bound to let you keep playing according to their terms (& not the "we can do anything we like" one) - not to say most of them have the slightest conception of honesty.

 

[soflat]

When you receive a bonus, the first wagers are either bonus monies or deposited funds. That is up to the casino and has to be applied consistently.

But what we seem to have here is a casino that selects the option that best suits them on case by case basis.

If the bonus funds are wagered first, and the casino later revokes the bonus, the player should be entitled to all of his/her deposited funds remaining. So for example, if the player deposited $100 and received $100 bonus, but lost $50, then he/she still has $100 in deposited funds and should get that back when the casino renegs on the bonus offer.

Conversely, if the deposited funds are wagered first, then the player would only have $50 of his own money left in the above example. But if he won, then he/she would keep the winnings because he was risking his own money.

In this case the operator is inconsistent and therefore rogue:
1) For the casinos the player lost at, the operator is saying that deposited funds were risked first (deducting losses from deposited funds).
2) But for the casino the player won at, the operator is saying the bonus was wagered first and voiding his winnings.

Furthermore, the T&Cs do not even hint that players are not allowed to claim bonuses at multiple casinos. They even credited him the bonuses initially.

Unless there is more to the story it looks like a rogue casino operator out to trap players.

 

[MarcyW]

I just wish IOG would quit spamming me EVERY SINGLE DAY!!!!!

 

[jdblingbling]

I have filed a Playtech dispute (since IOG is ignoring my emails now). Should I Pitch a bitch as well, or wait for the result of the Playtech complaint? Any word on my suggestion to move this group to Not Recommended given all their issues?

 

[kreome]

The playtech dispute channel is a waste of your time

Pitch a bitch immediately and I think you should try the pitch a bitch before you try the forums.

I bet they are going to pay you finally.

 

[LisasLuck]

I just wish IOG would quit spamming me EVERY SINGLE DAY!!!!!

I second that!

 

[rtmlam]

This is a good idea but for the big groups that have 10 or even 20+ casinos how would you know/remember which casinos you have already played at. Im talking about the more casual players not the out and out bonus hunters.

It would be awful to sign up to casino no2 in a group in good faith, get a bonus and win and be denyed payment.

Surely they could match up your name/address and not give a bonus automatically.

I agree, I think it is absurd for a group to offer a bonus at it's casinos and later claim it's always abuse (when the player wins) if a player may take advantage of some of these offers. If you do not want to offer the bonus to all that come, make it clear in the terms at a minimum.

 

[Graham]

Hello everyone,

I would just like to clarify that the player was treated in accordance to rules agreed when the player signed up as a member of the casino group . Our management team took no action that was against any bonus policy nor any action that was against our Terms of Use. Of course we returned the balances in his accounts, but we cannot return funds lost while playing in the casino.

Sincerely,

Graham
IOG Casino Group

 

[soflat]

I would just like to clarify that the player was treated in accordance to rules agreed when the player signed up as a member of the casino group . Our management team took no action that was against any bonus policy nor any action that was against our Terms of Use. Of course we returned the balances in his accounts, but we cannot return funds lost while playing in the casino.

In one case you decided that the bonus money was played first.

In the other cases you decided that player funds were wagered first.

Is this group rogue yet?

 

[BBKPoker]

and you still have yet to explain:

You still have yet to answer the original question that has been brought up:

How can you possibly refuse to refund a player's deposits AFTER you've pulled their bonuses, and WHILE they were in the middle of wagering when those wagers would NOT have been placed had you not allowed the player to both sign up and receive a bonus?

It has absolutely nothing to do with asking for losses back and everything to do with expecting to be refunded wagers that were made due to a promise and offer by your company that turned out to be false. It's bad enough that you pulled his bonuses period, and you are now putting up a fight over refunding him his deposits is absurd.

An analogy to what you did would be if a cellphone company gave you a $100 credit to renew a contract, you do so, and then they reverse it and charge you $100 after all.

This whole fiasco is a complete and obvious bait and switch.

I'm glad I referred JD here and helped him out with his post, because this post has been very illuminating on exactly what kind of casino you are. I'm going to logout and walk him through pitching a bitch now.

 

[jdblingbling]

okay

I've pitched a bitch (Playtech has ignored me for longer than a week, nowhere near the 3-businss day turnaround time promised).

 

[BBKPoker]

JD just forwarded an email to me from Iris T of Playtech which was a one sentence response that backed up the casino with no explanation.

Hopefully the PAB I helped him send in will get somewhere, in the meantime avoid the heck out of these renegades.

 

[soflat]

What a scam they have going.

If you win, they say you were playing with bonus funds first and they take your winnings.

If you lose, they say you were playing with your own funds first and they keep your winnings.

That's ok with with Playtech?

 

[jdblingbling]

Still no update from Playtech (big surprise)

I PAB'd and PM'd a reminder but haven't heard anything there either. Must be a busy week.

 

[jdblingbling]

*bump*

 

[paul02085]

Does anyone know if Iris "rubber stamp" Toledo really exists?

 

[spearmaster]

Does anyone know if Iris "rubber stamp" Toledo really exists?

Iris Toledo doesn't exist.

Iris Toledano does

 

[Linus]

I can never understand why a casino group that objects to bonus hunters going after a bonus at every site in the group doesn't change their T&Cs to better reflect their policy

Because this way they get a chance to freeroll their players.

If the player wins, the casino confiscates his winnings.

If the player loses, the casino keeps the losses.

This way, the casino can take advantage of bonuses, without having to risk any of its own funds.

The only way players can protect themselves from this kind of bonus abuse, is to publicize the names of the casinos who do it, so we know which sites to avoid.

 

[jdblingbling]

bump *ahem*

 

[wootchris]

HYPOCRITES

IOG did the same thing to me except I am UP money which they are now refusing to pay.

IF THEY LOCK YOUR ACCOUNT FOR SOME REASON WHEN YOU ARE UP THEN YOU ARE "ABUSIVE" AND THEY DO NOT DO ANYTHING BUT RETURN DEPOSITS.

IF THEY LOCK YOUR ACCOUNT FOR SOME REASON WHEN YOU ARE DOWN THEN YOU HAVE LEGITIMATE LOSSES ACCORDING TO THEM AND THEY WON'T GIVE YOU YOUR DEPOSITS BACK.

YOU CANT HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO.

 

[rreevy]

Sorry to hear about your situation, wootchris, though it's good to see someone posting on this thread again. I always feel it's a shame when these things go quiet without any kind of resolution being reached.

If I understand the original player's case right, he/she had losses at four of the five casinos, but still had a balance with them, from which the bonuses were deducted. My take on these things is simple:

1. Either the player's deposited funds are wagered first, or the bonus funds are wagered first. Casinos cannot choose retrospectively which of these happens, as this would clearly allow them to deal with each case in the way that works out best for them, rather than in a fair and consistent manner.

2. Casinos have the right to refuse to issue a bonus. (I may not like it, but I do accept it). However, once they've actually issued the bonus, they're bound to let the player play it out and make a withdrawal, according to the T&Cs. If the casino then wants to refuse you any future bonuses, then fine. But confiscating a bonus just because they don't like the way you use it, even though you didn't break any T&Cs, is NOT acceptable imo.

 

[Graham]

Our casino group always tries its best to follow the rules set down in the Terms of Use that all of our players must read and have to agree to in order to become a member of one of our casinos. The player with the issue in question agreed to all of the following statements. We have refunded his original deposit and closed his account.

Below are the specific points in our agreed upon Terms of Use.

9.6 In the event that we will suspect fraud or fraudulent activity on your part or any of your payments are charged back, we will have the right to withhold any pay-out or winning amounts due to you and if necessary, to lawfully collect any payments owed by you.

9.7 We may at any time without prior notice to you terminate your use of the Online Casino and block your Player Account if it considers that you are in breach of any of the terms and provisions of this Agreement or that you are otherwise acting illegally

9.8 We reserve the right, at our sole discretion, to offer and advertise from time to time promotions, bonuses or other special offers and each such offer will be subject to specific terms and conditions which will be valid for a limited period of time. In connection with the specific terms of the above promotions, bonus and special offers, we further reserve the right to withhold any withdrawal amount from your account which will be in excess of your original deposit. In addition, we reserve the right to withhold or otherwise decline or reverse any pay-out or winning amount or amend any policy in the event that we suspect that you are abusing or attempting to abuse any of the following: (i) bonuses; (ii) other promotions; or (iii) specific policy or rules determined in respect of an existing game or a new game.

If anyone has any questions about our Terms of Use please direct them to me at [email protected].

Graham

IOG Casino Group

 

[kwblue]

Graham....

Seriously - answer the freakin' question. WHAT ABUSE HAPPENED? What was your reasoning for closing the accounts? Nobody is going to feel IOG did the right thing until you answer that question!

I am removing all IOG casinos from my affiliate sites. I won't promote this kind of shit.

PS - I am glad that you refunded his original deposit (yay!), but how do we know this won't happen again?

 

[Rusty]

Could the Casinos please define exactly what a "Bonus abuser is."
I just dont get it.
It is individual casinos that advertise a first deposit bonus and not the group or software provider so what is the problem with this guy taking up more than one promotion?
Also what are the wagering requirements all about if it is not the Casinos way of making sure their promotions are not open to abuse.

"In the interests of fair gaming we ask our players to wager x amount before a withdrawal can be made."

In the interests of fair gaming I ask the Casinos to simplify a bonus in the following manner;

In the event of a player losing his/her first deposit having made no withdrawal request the Casino offers a bonus of x% of deposit lost.This bonus is cashable and has no WR.

Now of course this would never happen because the Casinos know they would be at real risk from "bonus abuse" but that is what a genuine promotion would look like.

If Casinos are so worried about bonus abuse then stop marketing bonus offers so aggresively, but you wont will you because the end result is they are good for profits, now stop the bullshit.

 

[sdaddy]

Graham,

You can write in your T&C that you reserve the right to confiscate winnings from a bonus offer if you feel like it, but that won't fly here. Any reputable casino group has to honor a withdrawal from a player who has met the specific wagering requirements and terms of the offer.

I think Casinomeister said it best in the Feb 9 newsletter:

Dealing with Players Who Use Bonuses

If you offer a player a bonus, and this player meets the wagering requirements - pay her (or him). Please understand, you are not being cheated if a player plays the bonus to the last cent; you are providing that player a unique service - the ability to gamble online. This is your function as a casino, and your mantra should be "Pay the player. Pay the player. Pay the player..." Repeat ad nauseum.

Providing gambling activities online may be your function, but with a bit of creativity and ingenuity you can garner loyalty from this player to keep him or her coming back. The house always wins, and if you are going to survive in this highly competitive industry, you need to see this "win" as a long term goal. Keep your players happy, whether you like their style of play or not, and you will receive your just rewards: respect and loyalty.

 

[rreevy]

They refunded the player's original deposit (singular). Which one? I believe he made a number of deposits at multiple casinos within their group and had winnings off one, which they've confiscated. I don't think they're returning the deposits he lost. In other words they deemed his style of play abusive when he won, but not when he lost.

imo the only 'right' thing to do is pay the player's winnings. Refunding his deposits and banning him isn't great, but it's better than nothing.

Graham, I don't see how points 9.6 and 9.7 are relevant. As far as I'm aware there's no suggestion that the player committed fraud, charged back, or broke any T&Cs.

In connection with the specific terms of the above promotions, bonus and special offers, we further reserve the right to withhold any withdrawal amount from your account which will be in excess of your original deposit.

In other words, if a player uses a bonus and wins, you don't have to do any more than give the deposit back if you don't feel like it. Have I understood that right?

In addition, we reserve the right to withhold or otherwise decline or reverse any pay-out or winning amount or amend any policy in the event that we suspect that you are abusing or attempting to abuse any of the following: (i) bonuses; (ii) other promotions; or (iii) specific policy or rules determined in respect of an existing game or a new game.

I notice you don't define 'abuse', and you reserve the right to do things based on what you suspect, thus shifting the burden of proof onto the player. I doubt this would wash in a properly regulated industry.

 

[paul02085]

I would call this theft and fraud. I guarantee you they couldnt get away with this if they were regulated. IMO, I would strongly suggest anyone reading this thread to stay far away from these casinos unless you want to get robbed.

What they are doing is no different from sticking a gun in someones back and stealing their wallet.

 

[frufrugirl]

Ohhhh Graham..no disrespect but ..whaaaaat??

Seems to me that that Graham's replies are saying..."hey, he was stupid enough to sign this here agreement , so there ! And ...Buh Bye!.."

Well, I apparently have signed stupid agreements but I didnt feel they were stupid because I never entered into a Casino agreement with the intent to defraud and never dreamed that the Casino would think I was defrauding them by taking their offer! I take the bonus's because they are offered and I really want to play!
How many new people are coming online to "Cheat the casinos?" not many i'd say but, 100% are there to try and BEAT the Casino because WE ALL WANT TO WIN !! We figure..Hey! Good deal! Maybe I can win! I'll put 100.00 of my money down if they will match it! Never mind that I have to risk it all by trying to make the WR..but hey..Maybe I can! Never know! It's a gamble and that goes on BOTH SIDES!!!!
Isnt that what the bonus's are supposed to do? Bring in the customers? Increase our enjoyment of the casino so we come back? Isnt that what all the razzel dazzel and bling bling on the casino banners is all about? Come on in and WIN!! RETIRE EARLY!! Sheez! I'm so sick of this Bonus crap!

Come on..tell us what rule did my Pacific NW buddy violate?

Thank you for letting me vent. I still like bonuses.

 

[wootchris]

My friend who had this issue, got this email a few days ago:

"IOG casino group is a highly respected online casino operation. We have literally hundreds of thousands of satisfied players globally. Our credibility stand out in the industry as we strive for service and player honor. We hold most of the biggest payout records on line today. We have one of the best software platforms with great game entertainment that satisfy our player base and this the reason why we are in the top one hundred online casinos worldwide.



When a player signs up to any online casino today the player agrees to have read and understood the terms and conditions clearly spelled out in the website information pages. This said we also give the player many opportunities to contact our live 24/7 support for any information plus a support system via email and toll free phones to request any information related to the games or the terms and conditions of the casino. This means that players with different intentions than just gambling and entertainment could understand that there are certain rules and regulations at play. This is no different from a land-based casino as there you have similar rules.

This brings me to my point – the term bonus seeker or bonus abuser is what we call players like this and there is a worldwide phenomenon related to this kind of player that think they can use online casinos as a quick rich project and that online casinos are gullible enough to tolerate any of this abuse. This means a player opening many accounts on the same day, try to get maximum bonuses in all the accounts, play specific games only with a high stake betting pattern, hopefully make a quick win with the assistance of the free bonuses, then play smaller bets to make wagering and then withdraw. Move on to the next casino and the next, making some money fast. Now this is where casino information share comes in, many online and land based casino share this kind of player information related to fraudulent or bonus abusers, helping casinos eliminate loss related to fraudulent and bonus abuse activities. The major problem is that there are many websites of late giving specific point-by-point information on how to defraud casinos. These play patterns are clearly pre determined by the abuser with a specific goal to use the free bonus incentives to gain an unfair advantage over the casino. This formula or calculated pattern falls absolutely within the same slot as card counting or even betting and is simply disallowed. Therefore, the very reason our casinos blocked your accounts and this information forwarded to an international credit information centre that specialize in possible fraudulent online activity. Now you will probably argue that you never had such intention. However, as we followed and monitored all your activities and game sessions we were convinced that your intention was bonus seeker related.



Below the exact words from our terms and conditions.



In the event that we will suspect fraud or fraudulent activity on your part or any of your payments are charged back, we will have the right to withhold any pay-out or winning amounts due to you and if necessary, to lawfully collect any payments owed by you.

We may at any time without prior notice to you terminate your use of the Online Casino and block your Player Account if it considers that you are in breach of any of the terms and provisions of this Agreement or that you are otherwise acting illegally. We will not be under any obligation in such circumstances to refund or otherwise reimburse you for any of the funds in your Player Account.



Your original deposit already refunded and as you have suffered no loss whatsoever, we consider this matter as closed.



Yours truly



Jonathan Strydom

IOG Game Master"

So in other words they openly admit that while he played allowed games, did not break any rules, etc, etc, because he and I played their bonus in a profitable manner they will not pay him any of his winnings.

um..... who in their right mind would want to play at this casino.

 

[wootchris]

My friend who had this issue, got this email a few days ago:

"IOG casino group is a highly respected online casino operation. We have literally hundreds of thousands of satisfied players globally. Our credibility stand out in the industry as we strive for service and player honor. We hold most of the biggest payout records on line today. We have one of the best software platforms with great game entertainment that satisfy our player base and this the reason why we are in the top one hundred online casinos worldwide.



When a player signs up to any online casino today the player agrees to have read and understood the terms and conditions clearly spelled out in the website information pages. This said we also give the player many opportunities to contact our live 24/7 support for any information plus a support system via email and toll free phones to request any information related to the games or the terms and conditions of the casino. This means that players with different intentions than just gambling and entertainment could understand that there are certain rules and regulations at play. This is no different from a land-based casino as there you have similar rules.

This brings me to my point – the term bonus seeker or bonus abuser is what we call players like this and there is a worldwide phenomenon related to this kind of player that think they can use online casinos as a quick rich project and that online casinos are gullible enough to tolerate any of this abuse. This means a player opening many accounts on the same day, try to get maximum bonuses in all the accounts, play specific games only with a high stake betting pattern, hopefully make a quick win with the assistance of the free bonuses, then play smaller bets to make wagering and then withdraw. Move on to the next casino and the next, making some money fast. Now this is where casino information share comes in, many online and land based casino share this kind of player information related to fraudulent or bonus abusers, helping casinos eliminate loss related to fraudulent and bonus abuse activities. The major problem is that there are many websites of late giving specific point-by-point information on how to defraud casinos. These play patterns are clearly pre determined by the abuser with a specific goal to use the free bonus incentives to gain an unfair advantage over the casino. This formula or calculated pattern falls absolutely within the same slot as card counting or even betting and is simply disallowed. Therefore, the very reason our casinos blocked your accounts and this information forwarded to an international credit information centre that specialize in possible fraudulent online activity. Now you will probably argue that you never had such intention. However, as we followed and monitored all your activities and game sessions we were convinced that your intention was bonus seeker related.



Below the exact words from our terms and conditions.



In the event that we will suspect fraud or fraudulent activity on your part or any of your payments are charged back, we will have the right to withhold any pay-out or winning amounts due to you and if necessary, to lawfully collect any payments owed by you.

We may at any time without prior notice to you terminate your use of the Online Casino and block your Player Account if it considers that you are in breach of any of the terms and provisions of this Agreement or that you are otherwise acting illegally. We will not be under any obligation in such circumstances to refund or otherwise reimburse you for any of the funds in your Player Account.



Your original deposit already refunded and as you have suffered no loss whatsoever, we consider this matter as closed.



Yours truly



Jonathan Strydom

IOG Game Master"

So in other words they openly admit that while he played allowed games, did not break any rules, etc, etc, because he and I played their bonus in a profitable manner they will not pay winnings.

um..... who in their right mind would want to play at this casino.

 

[Vesuvio]

In a way it's refreshing to see the indefensible logic of so many on-line casinos stated so bluntly.

This brings me to my point – the term bonus seeker or bonus abuser is what we call players like this and there is a worldwide phenomenon related to this kind of player that think they can use online casinos as a quick rich project and that online casinos are gullible enough to tolerate any of this abuse.

Inept grammar aside, it's the old story - playing a bonus and trying to keep some of the "free" money is "abuse". Players are supposed to be gullible enough to be drawn in by the incentive and lose their deposit, but if they play sensibly and get lucky the casino won't allow itself to be "gullible", so it'll just steal any winnings. Sounds like a neat get-rich-quick scheme to me.

Now this is where casino information share comes in, many online and land based casino share this kind of player information related to fraudulent or bonus abusers, helping casinos eliminate loss related to fraudulent and bonus abuse activities. The major problem is that there are many websites of late giving specific point-by-point information on how to defraud casinos.

I'm just quoting the above as an example of the way on-line casinos are trying to blur the line between fraud and simply taking them up on their bonuses. The fact that two activities cost you money doesn't make them equivalent - someone who takes advantage of a 2-for-1 offer in a shop isn't a shoplifter.

These play patterns are clearly pre determined by the abuser with a specific goal to use the free bonus incentives to gain an unfair advantage over the casino.

This is bordering on the comical How dare the player try and turn the ("free") bonus to his advantage! Note the casino is offering the player an advantage - it's not a case of fraud or exploiting some flaw in the software. If you design a promotion so that the player has an edge you have to accept he might win. Advertising costs.

Below the exact words from our terms and conditions.



In the event that we will suspect fraud or fraudulent activity on your part or any of your payments are charged back, we will have the right to withhold any pay-out or winning amounts due to you and if necessary, to lawfully collect any payments owed by you.

We may at any time without prior notice to you terminate your use of the Online Casino and block your Player Account if it considers that you are in breach of any of the terms and provisions of this Agreement or that you are otherwise acting illegally. We will not be under any obligation in such circumstances to refund or otherwise reimburse you for any of the funds in your Player Account.

These are some of the weakest "catch-all" terms I've seen at an on-line casino. As taking advantage of bonuses isn't fraud they don't actually seem to have a case here. Anyway, quoting these terms is always a sure sign of a rogue casino.

Your original deposit already refunded and as you have suffered no loss whatsoever, we consider this matter as closed.

A strong contender for the most mind-numbingly stupid cliche of the on-line casino industry. A player's won, let's say, $1,000,000 from a $100 deposit, meeting all the terms and conditions. His balance is now his own money, but the casino gives back just the deposit... and no harm's done Of course if you can get away with returning deposits to winning players and keeping the deposits of losers you've got the perfect business - even if any genuine regulation would see you closed down for fraud

 

[frufrugirl]

I agree with you Vesuvio

gosh, it's basically saying "If you use our bonues in conjunction with your money, we reserve the right to tell you how to play. Players who do not sufficiantly dink around with their money and lose at the rate required will lose further access to our casino in an attempt to prevent the fraud of winning".......

 

[nafanny29]

From their site:

"Magicbox Casino is a fully licensed Online Casino, regulated by the Government of Antigua and operating under the supervision of the Director of Offshore Gaming. We adhere to a strict code of conduct and our high level of integrity has earned us the trust and loyalty of our numerous clients."

Makes me want to

 

[sirius]

There have been enough warnings about this group

These casinos have been blacklisted for years on my site for similar behaviour. There have been countless threads at winneronline too going back a few years and many here too. They need to understand how to run a casino properly and ethically.

It's one of the few groups of casinos I've never bothered playing. The Strydom guy must be new and he's put the final nail in the coffin. I also wonder if this group is connected to any other, maybe even a Microgaming powered group. I know Swiss Casino was initially owned or partly owned by an existing online operator but I never found out which one.

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WINNERonline Gambling Discussion - Casino Las Vegas - removes bonus and winnings for "abuse" (ie: winning)

 

[rreevy]

This means that players with different intentions than just gambling and entertainment could understand that there are certain rules and regulations at play. This is no different from a land-based casino as there you have similar rules.

You mean terms that allow you to take away a player's winnings because you don't like the way they played? I notice those are conveniently vague. BTW I have yet to be presented with a list of T&Cs I have to read before walking into a land-based casino... but then I don't go to land-based casinos very often, so what do I know?

This brings me to my point – the term bonus seeker or bonus abuser is what we call players like this and there is a worldwide phenomenon related to this kind of player that think they can use online casinos as a quick rich project and that online casinos are gullible enough to tolerate any of this abuse.

I think Vesuvio summed this up pretty well. Players can use online casinos as a 'quick rich project' [sic], because casinos have bonuses that are beatable. Why do they do that? I think an online gambling writer put it best when he said that 'if you have a conveyor belt with hundred-dollar bills on, it makes more sense to stand at the end with a big box than to catch a few bills flying off the sides'.

This means a player opening many accounts on the same day, try to get maximum bonuses in all the accounts, play specific games only with a high stake betting pattern, hopefully make a quick win with the assistance of the free bonuses, then play smaller bets to make wagering and then withdraw.

Don't offer bonuses like that, then. Or change the betting limits for bonuses so that's harder to do.

The major problem is that there are many websites of late giving specific point-by-point information on how to defraud casinos. [...] This formula or calculated pattern falls absolutely within the same slot as card counting or even betting and is simply disallowed. Therefore, the very reason our casinos blocked your accounts and this information forwarded to an international credit information centre that specialize in possible fraudulent online activity.

There are sites telling you how to make money off bonuses, but I have yet to see one advising how to defraud casinos, which is not the same thing.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'even betting', but I can tell you that card counting is not disallowed - it's not illegal anywhere I know of, and [land-based] casinos don't have T&Cs banning it. If they did, they'd lose loads of players who they make money from because they can't actually count cards that well. Also, no land-based casino would be able to steal a player's winnings because that player counted cards. Has anybody ever heard of that happening?

BTW When will casinos get this? Using bonuses profitably is NOT FRAUD. You start circulating people's information around because they've done nothing wrong other than be smart, and you'd be playing with fire in a well-regulated jurisdiction.

I'm sorry if I've been a little vitriolic in my criticism of this text. But casinos offer bonuses because they do work in terms of luring players in. Likewise, card counting made blackjack the most popular game in land-based casinos... and the most profitable for the house. Stop trying to have your cake and eat it too.

 

[sdaddy]

Once again, if this casino group feels so strongly that certain forms of play are "abusing" their bonus offers, then it needs to write such specific restrictions in its T&C. Ambiguous "we reserve the right to confiscate" clauses are simply not acceptable practice at any reputable casino.

 

[nafanny29]

If casinos dont want to attract "bonus hunters" then dont offer +EV bonuses... Period, Most reputable casinos are after customers who like a gamble and are allowed to sometimes get lucky. Any decent casino will court such players and accept the fact that they will get lucky every so often. Hell even I have won in Vegas occasionally and my comps dont disappear as a result (in fact they improve amazingly)

 

[thelawnet]

My friend who had this issue, got this email a few days ago:


So in other words they openly admit that while he played allowed games, did not break any rules, etc, etc, because he and I played their bonus in a profitable manner they will not pay winnings.

um..... who in their right mind would want to play at this casino.

I have no idea.

They are clearly a bunch of crooks. They knew the player was going to play in a manner that meant he was expected to win, because they've got a shared database and he's signed up to other casinos just to get the bonus. Apparently this is fraud????

Just to be clear: casino plays in a manner where casino is expected to win (i.e. all the time without a bonus) - not fraud
player plays in a manner where player is expected to win - fraud

They have every right to exclude players, but they need to do it when they sign up, BEFORE they deposit. Or else change their terms so that the bonuses aren't attractive.